I found this whilst looking for summat else....
I think it's a great idea and I'd love to try it
credit to munchkin TG forums
Quote Innovative Strategies for Using Transport Helos (not incl. aerial flag capping)
Heya guys,
Last night I was playing on an Aussie pubbie (yeah, I know, pubbies suck most of the time) and ended up in a squad which was operating with a blackhawk most of the time.
The map was Mashtuur City, and our squad leader had taken the helo up as high as possible, and was hovering over certain desirable CPs that he wanted us to attack.
As we spawned, we would, depending on our class, drop med packs, ammo packs and c4 downwards, before initiating a HALO jump downwards. We deployed extremely fast, and would be on the ground within 20 seconds of dying. This method, coupled with the unpredictable nature of the parachutes, allowed us to hit defenders and attackers on the flanks and rear, causing chaos. GLs also proved extremely effective.
At the height of our teamwork, we would prep for an incursion by:
1. Dropping med and ammo packs.
2. Dropping c4, and then detonating it to clear the area.
3. HALO jump, spotting targets while in freefall
4. Flag cap
5. Securing perimeter
6. Brief defense
7. Once dead, stay in helo as it moves to new position behind the attackers
8. Hit attackers from rear
LINK (http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=58219)
QuoteOriginally posted by Blunt@Sep 26 2005, 12:58 PM
I found this whilst looking for summat else....
I think it's a great idea and I'd love to try it
credit to munchkin TG forums
LINK (http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=58219)
[post=96307]Quoted post[/post]
I have done something simiar in the attack helicopter last night. Stay at approx. 400 meters altitude (the maximum range of the TV missile is 500 meters) and approx 150 meters away. Have the gunner attack the flags using the TV missiles. It works quite well, but isn't exactly sportsmanship-like - I just had to see if it works - which it does.
I figured you could exploit this as a sort of miniature artillery. The chopper is almost impossible to find on the AAS without UAV and after firing the first missile you have a pretty good inner picture of what you are to attack. The members of the squad could even ask you to take out a tank right next to f.i. a wall, a palm tree etc.
It would be nice if we didn't leave our tactical briefing until the match started! LMAO!
One of the reasons we got so badly gubbed last night is that [KOD] had their tactics well planned and rehersed and all their players knew what roles the had to play before hand...
:)
I know we are principally a 'fun' team - but last night was a little embarrassing!
:blush: :blush: :blush:
It doesn't have to be a complicated stategy - just who does what and what class they need to be at the start and where they need to go at the start. That's all.
Maybe we should start a thread where everyone can list their favoured class and role so the commander can chose who goes where (kind of like a team roster).
:rolleyes:
I don't feel at all embarrassed at our result or the way we played <_<
it was a bit like arranging a boxing match and the guy starts kicking you and wrestling :eyebrow:
if anyone should be embarrassed, it's the dolphin-diving KoD :thumbsdown:
anyway....
on CZ dMw'ers have developed some tactics that are refered to with a codeword that is called at the start of the round....these normally refer to routes we should take eg. Sadako1 & 2...and these can be altered on the hoof without too much fuss
however this would be difficult in BF2 due to the size of the maps, the different gameplay and the infinate number of routes you can take to get from A to B.
a well practised routine will get a nickname soon enough and we'll be shouting stupid names to each other and all know what we mean :P
It was a tough match last night. ignoring the dolphins. I think we need to improve on 2 levels.
On the grunt level.
Follow your SL come what may. were every he leads you, unless you get a specific mission. not as easy as it sounds when you see a wounded enemy run in the opposite direction. or you think you could do a bit of sneaky round the back fragging :). And always, always have a medic in your squad.
Command level.
we need a pool of SL's & CO's to pick from in advance of the match. so they can get together and have an idea of routes and some defensive tactics way before 5 minutes from kick off.
I guess no one likes being CO. but we need a few good ones so we can spread the load. the problem is we get no practise. I think we need to switch CO back on when the server is busy, a few times a week
QuoteOriginally posted by Armitage@Sep 26 2005, 07:44 PM
I guess no one likes being CO. but we need a few good ones so we can spread the load. the problem is we get no practise. I think we need to switch CO back on when the server is busy, a few times a week
[post=96384]Quoted post[/post]
Actually, I would not mind doing CO once in a while - as long as it is no more than one or two games in a row.
QuoteOriginally posted by Armitage@Sep 26 2005, 06:44 PM
It was a tough match last night. ignoring the dolphins. I think we need to improve on 2 levels.
On the grunt level.
Follow your SL come what may. were every he leads you, unless you get a specific mission. not as easy as it sounds when you see a wounded enemy run in the opposite direction. or you think you could do a bit of sneaky round the back fragging :). And always, always have a medic in your squad.
Command level.
we need a pool of SL's & CO's to pick from in advance of the match. so they can get together and have an idea of routes and some defensive tactics way before 5 minutes from kick off.
I guess no one likes being CO. but we need a few good ones so we can spread the load. the problem is we get no practise. I think we need to switch CO back on when the server is busy, a few times a week
[post=96384]Quoted post[/post]
I agree with Armitage.
I also think that theres some free software you can download (I know I've mentioned before) which allows the whole team to see a strategy before we play, this should be used and sent around so everyone knows their squads role, their role and overall strategy. Obviously tactics change ad hoc.
I vote for Ranger, he's a good SL and CO in the games I've played with him.
The good old pincer move is always excellent.
The first team should make a decoy making the enemy think they want to flank. The second team holds back untill the enemy starts shooting Team 1 who are "flanking". Team 2 is split up a bit from the original starting point. A few should give surpressing fire for team 1 but also for 2 to keep the enemy busy. Team 2 should split up, a few staying at the original starting point and about 2 sneaky devils should get the enemies in the back...
(http://bodclan.org.uk/clan/modules/files/DuVeL/pincer.JPG)
QuoteOriginally posted by DuVeL@Sep 27 2005, 10:06 AM
(http://bodclan.org.uk/clan/modules/files/DuVeL/pincer.JPG)
[post=96470]Quoted post[/post]
Oh ho ho! (Salivates) - Now we are doing tactical diagrams! ( - very excited - ) - 'Where's my Photoshop!!!!'
:D
Remember, you don't have to think about new movements.
This 1 is allready so old...Saw this on a program about old warfair on Discovery channel.
Maybe TL can crack up some football tactics that might be of use.
Personally I like to keep moving instead of defending 1 position so the enemy thinks they are outnumberd.
Also allways a good 1: plant a boobytrap...shoot from that spot... move to another spot...I'll bet you that someone will take a look at your previous point of shooting...
I should stop now and start playing the game soon and I'll think of some more stuff.
The BIG guys were talking about this over lunch...
A variation of the pinsor with greater relation to how BF2 is played is the 'Pincer Plus'!
First of all, you have to remember that on every BF2 map there is a key flag to capture - particularly on 16/32 player maps.
This is usually the central base/flag.
Remember - unlike real warfare - to win in BF2 you do not have to dominate all the enemy's territory. In BF2 securing 50% of the map and defending that territory is usually enough to secure a win.
This was illustrated lat night while playing Zatar Wetland - we all know the middle base (on the hill) is key. Hold this and you have the game won.
So the tactic here is to divide your team - usually into two, but you could split into three.
Here's the format of teh 'Pinsor Plus':
A Team:
The largest squad. They get to the central base as quickly as possible - by-passing the intermediate flags on the way (use fasters transport - Jeep/Helicopter).
B Team:
These are the 'catch-up' team. They bring up any heavy equipment (tank/APC) and capture the intermediate flags along the way to the central base.
C Team:
This is your harrassment team (1 or two guys playing Special Ops). These guys by-pass the central base and harrass the enemies land movement towards the central base. They do this in two ways:
1) They blow up bridges between the central base and the next enemy base - thus holding up heavy armour...
2) They constantly try to neutralize the next base up from teh central base, meaning the enemy keep having to go back to defend that base, and so have their assault on the central base broken up.
This is Pincer Plus.
A flanking movement around the intitial objective (the central base) PLUS an additional flanking movement around the oncoming enemy to harrass their progress.
A Team is primarily a defensive team and should have Supply and Engineers (for mines).
B Team should be Enginners or Assault (and bring up the Tank/APC from teh main base)
C Team should be Special Ops
(http://www.beaty.demon.co.uk/pictures/BF2/tactics/pplus.png)
Good idea. AAS changes gameplay in the sense that it opens up for use of fire teams.
Holding the majority flag is key, no doubt about that, but imho the ambition of the C-team should also be to cap and push on. The rest should follow up if it is safe, even if it later on means leaving the majority flag with AB teams.
I am not talking mindless push for the next flag, but digging in for the rest of the match is too dangerous imho - you need to reduce the number of enemy bases, especially the ones with apc's and choppers. Not only do you take vehicles etc. away from the enemy, but you gain vehicles yourself. Imho holding the majority flag is only the first most important step... and letting the enemy keep that much hardware is too dangerous.
What I would like to know - how would you equip teams to take the Zatar Wetlands majority flag back? it would involve APCs to freight teams to the flag quickly, helicopter to distract the other chopper and/or raid the base. It requires engineers to remove mines and repair vehicles and infantry to infiltrate, especially to take out the manned stinger. ... something for you to discuss over lunch, I guess? :D
About the software - I posted it earlier, it is called ATC (Advanced Tactical Center) and you can get it here. You set up a server, people join, and you can then draw and discuss the strategy using graphics from the game
http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1 (http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1)
At the time I posted it there wasn't much interest... but maybe that has changed?
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 11:37 AM
About the software - I posted it earlier, it is called ATC (Advanced Tactical Center) and you can get it here. You set up a server, people join, and you can then draw and discuss the strategy using graphics from the game
http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1 (http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1)
At the time I posted it there wasn't much interest... but maybe that has changed?
[post=96498]Quoted post[/post]
I think you are right - we are all still in this for fun - but a bit of organization actually makes it MORE fun, not less.
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 11:33 AM
GI am not talking mindless push for the next flag, but digging in for the rest of the match is too dangerous imho - you need to reduce the number of enemy bases, especially the ones with apc's and choppers. [post=96495]Quoted post[/post]
The 'Pincer Plus' is just one tactic - not
the tactic. I think we can have a small repotoire of 'plays'.
Say 3?
So a variant - using your suggestion - would be 'Pincer Plus' but a rolling versions - where we push and hold, push and hold?
I played something similar last night when I was SL at Karkland - my team moved to the next objective while I stayed to defend the capped flag. When they captured the next flag I moved up one flag.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ranger@Sep 27 2005, 02:04 PM
So a variant - using your suggestion - would be 'Pincer Plus' but a rolling versions - where we push and hold, push and hold?
[post=96507]Quoted post[/post]
That is basically what we try an do most of the time imho :) It goes wrong when the enemy sneaks around you, in a pincher, and grabs the flag behind you, or if you simply get pushed back.
mono and I have discussed the leap-frog strategy here at the office, but not conclusive. It is difficult to deploy without weakening the defense players too much. If the teams are even and the attacker is attacking you with full force, you can hardly spare a single player to sneak up on the next flag. Unless perhaps you were better at organizing kits, and used mines etc. so you could fortify?
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 12:25 PM
Unless perhaps you were better at organizing kits, and used mines etc. so you could fortify?
[post=96508]Quoted post[/post]
Yep - that's it exactly.
That's what we did last night on Zatar Wetlands.
The A team needs to have Engineers to mine generously.
So it's push and hold (and by hold I mean digging in).
And then you can send out a guy to try and cap the next flag - preferable just as teh enemy starts an assault on your flag (so they are all need that flag increasing the chance of your lone guy taking their flag)...
This actually WORKED on Zater last night - we held teh central base AND took the next flag several times. But chose not to try and hold it but instead sat back on teh central base to defend.
However, by taking their flag they hen had to send forces BACK to that base to re-cap their flag, so they never really had a cohesive large scale assault on our flag.
It's nuisence tactics (Team C).
Personally what I would do is cap their flag then run and hide (don't try to defend it) - then run back and cap it again, then hide again, and so on!
In the end they may have to leave forces at the base to look for your nuisence guy...So much the better!!
:)
I did something similar with a sniper class. I teamed up with a special ops guy. I provided overwatch from the hillside, he would run in, cap it and plant some C4, then fall back towards me. As they came in to recapture I would be able to pick a couple off, the C4 would take out some more of them, and so they had to divert more resources. Then once they had recaptured and advanced again, the spec ops would go back in. Only difficulty is resupplying without giving your position away.
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 12:33 PM
It requires engineers to remove mines and repair vehicles and infantry to infiltrate, especially to take out the manned stinger. ... something for you to discuss over lunch, I guess? :D
[post=96495]Quoted post[/post]
Delanvital can engineer remove mines?
Yes
QuoteOriginally posted by Ranger@Sep 27 2005, 11:10 AM
Oh ho ho! (Salivates) - Now we are doing tactical diagrams! ( - very excited - ) - 'Where's my Photoshop!!!!'
:D
[post=96471]Quoted post[/post]
But there is some free software out there that allows you to draw as you've done but on a 3d/2d map and then share this with the rest of the squad, I think you may do it on line real time, which combined with TS would be great say before a match just to clarify what squads should be doing.
QuoteOriginally posted by A Twig@Sep 27 2005, 01:39 PM
Yes
[post=96513]Quoted post[/post]
cool I didn't know that. How do you do it?
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 27 2005, 12:47 PM
cool I didn't know that. How do you do it?
[post=96515]Quoted post[/post]
You take out your spanner and walk up to the mine...
The spanner has a circular cursor which turns into a double circle when you place it over something that you can repair.
Place the cursor over the mine and press your left mouse key...After a moment or two the mine just disappears!
Which is another good reason to have Engineers drive tanks/APCs - so they can clear mines in front of them.
:)
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 12:37 PM
About the software - I posted it earlier, it is called ATC (Advanced Tactical Center) and you can get it here. You set up a server, people join, and you can then draw and discuss the strategy using graphics from the game
http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1 (http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=4&s=1)
At the time I posted it there wasn't much interest... but maybe that has changed?
[post=96498]Quoted post[/post]
I think this is an excellent idea and we should be making us of it. Its more fun for me when I know what I'm doing and what is expected of me... otherwise I just end up looking in shop windows and admiring the scenery :)
I'll have a look at the software and report back.
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 27 2005, 04:28 PM
I'll have a look at the software and report back.
[post=96521]Quoted post[/post]
It is easy to use, only catch is we need someone to run it s a server. I guess the bandwidth consumption is very low, but still...
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 27 2005, 03:43 PM
It is easy to use, only catch is we need someone to run it s a server. I guess the bandwidth consumption is very low, but still...
[post=96524]Quoted post[/post]
DMW server?
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 27 2005, 03:50 PM
DMW server?
[post=96527]Quoted post[/post]
Looks very good. :withstupid:
QuoteOriginally posted by Ranger@Sep 27 2005, 02:36 PM
However, by taking their flag they hen had to send forces BACK to that base to re-cap their flag, so they never really had a cohesive large scale assault on our flag.
[post=96510]Quoted post[/post]
.. and as they die they have to spawn further away and with less vehicles at their disposal - except if the enemy is good at keeping SL's alive :)
Ok I've been playing with ATC software (Tactics/strategy thing) and have it setup so you can now log onto it to play around see what my feeble efforts so far.
I'm impressed. Its very simple to use. Once people are logged in you organise people into squads and assign them classes.
Basically it will allow us all to meet in ATC before a match, and with team speak organise ourelves into squads and let us know what our roles are and what we should be doing.
You can message each other in it and we can give everyone the option of annotating the plans/iso's. We can also load our own images in. There is a choice of 16/32/64 player maps.
I've used Karkland as an example.
The plans can be as simple or complex as you like, I'm swayed towards the simple :whistle:
I've left the server running so try it out now:
ip 83.100.181.210
port: 3333
username: ie Big-Dewey
password: big
you'll have admin rights so feel free to try it out.
Let us know what you think of it.
I think the problem is not the large tactical ideas. it's the moving it tight well coordinated squads. In the dolphin match we couldn't even move down a side street. we got picked off, spawn in the wrong place. The SL gets killed and there is no medic to revive him. so he get separated from the main group and the attack is in tethers.
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 27 2005, 04:27 PM
I've left the server running so try it out now:
ip 83.100.181.210
port: 3333
username: ie Big-Dewey
password: big
Let us know what you think of it.[post=96537]Quoted post[/post]
i think basically it is a good idea but we would LAL have to get used to it. It could be really easy to draw up lots of tactics that don't actually work IRL. Additionally, unless the tactics are easy I won't remember them :(
We should try it out though.
Are you OK to leave the server running or do you want me to setup a "formal" ATC server (my server runs 24/7/365)
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Sep 27 2005, 07:31 PM
i think basically it is a good idea but we would LAL have to get used to it. It could be really easy to draw up lots of tactics that don't actually work IRL. Additionally, unless the tactics are easy I won't remember them :(
We should try it out though.
Are you OK to leave the server running or do you want me to setup a "formal" ATC server (my server runs 24/7/365)
[post=96568]Quoted post[/post]
Thanks Blueball can you put up a formal ATC server cheers bud.
I know what you mean, we shouldn't get bogged down with tactics and strategies but even if we used this as a tool so everyone knows where they are going to on the break-out (paintball slang) that would be useful.
I think the best way forward is sadly to act all serious and think in terms of fire-teams.
You have a buddy, stick like glue. The rest should develop from there.
Medic and SL
AT and Resupply bloke maybe?
Assault and engineer?
would make sense, maybe three's? Working out the here there's and everywheres can't really come until you move as team and obey the attack and defend here things.
In CS we all started to get used to which corners we were covering and all the angles, I'd assume we'd all get used to this aswell, but you need the back up to cover/resupply and revive you.
Keeping the SL alive is vital as is his position.
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Sep 28 2005, 01:55 PM
I think the best way forward is sadly to act all serious and think in terms of fire-teams.
You have a buddy, stick like glue. The rest should develop from there.
Medic and SL
AT and Resupply bloke maybe?
Assault and engineer?
would make sense, maybe three's? Working out the here there's and everywheres can't really come until you move as team and obey the attack and defend here things.
In CS we all started to get used to which corners we were covering and all the angles, I'd assume we'd all get used to this aswell, but you need the back up to cover/resupply and revive you.
Keeping the SL alive is vital as is his position.
[post=96660]Quoted post[/post]
Well I think what what your describing above will come with practice and I agree with everything you say.
However there are some basics we can get right immediately
- what a squad is made up of (depending on map)
- who plays what class
- where you should be running to on the breakout
- basic comms ie what we should be using and how
- and what is your first objective at game start
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 28 2005, 05:46 PM
- what a squad is made up of (depending on map)
- who plays what class
- where you should be running to on the breakout
- basic comms ie what we should be using and how
- and what is your first objective at game start
[post=96705]Quoted post[/post]
The problem is, that the amount of players on each side has an impact on the composition of the squad. But yeah, generally speaking.
Comms related - One thing which I suck at myself but is important - instead of yelling "tank incoming" I should say something like what I see, how many, wherefrom are whereto. So that would be "1 tank near west bridge headed for south entrance" ... or something... I dont think more info is needed, as long as it is implicitit what flags you are talking about :)
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 28 2005, 03:46 PM
Well I think what what your describing above will come with practice and I agree with everything you say.
However there are some basics we can get right immediately
- what a squad is made up of (depending on map)
- who plays what class
- where you should be running to on the breakout
- basic comms ie what we should be using and how
- and what is your first objective at game start
[post=96705]Quoted post[/post]
I've got a bit of that started mate. I did a squad roster/role thread to help SL's/Commanders pick a good squad team.
This includes a list of who likes to do which class and other info.
I also posted the idea of a Armour/Assault/Harrassment team make up.
Maybe we should do a thread with examples of ideal squad make-ups using the squad roster to identify good combos?
Mark them on the map and comms to bring attention?
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 28 2005, 04:07 PM
Comms related - One thing which I suck at myself but is important - instead of yelling "tank incoming" I should say something like what I see, how many, wherefrom are whereto. So that would be "1 tank near west bridge headed for south entrance" ... or something... I dont think more info is needed, as long as it is implicitit what flags you are talking about :)
[post=96713]Quoted post[/post]
I use the point and click to "mark" a target so that everyone can then see it on the map, much easier and better than speaking.
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Sep 28 2005, 06:13 PM
I use the point and click to "mark" a target so that everyone can then see it on the map, much easier and better than speaking.
[post=96718]Quoted post[/post]
So do I, but there are times when you can't spot the enemy, such as after you have been killed and spawned again somewhere too far away :)
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 28 2005, 05:18 PM
So do I, but there are times when you can't spot the enemy, such as after you have been killed and spawned again somewhere too far away :)
[post=96721]Quoted post[/post]
.. and thats the time when it is really hard to remember landmarks to use as reference. I usually end saying something like - behind the house that isnt in front of me over there type place.
One plus for the medic is that fallen comrades are still shown and you can take a reference from them.
The other thing that bugs me is when camrades open fire on a target at a distance I cant see. Then they get shot. We should all try to mark before opening fire -0 especially at a distance.
One of the reasons we held out so well at the stalemate thing lastnight was that we all marked - and double/triple marked every target.
QuoteOriginally posted by big-paddy@Sep 28 2005, 07:37 PM
.. and thats the time when it is really hard to remember landmarks to use as reference. I usually end saying something like - behind the house that isnt in front of me over there type place.
One plus for the medic is that fallen comrades are still shown and you can take a reference from them.
The other thing that bugs me is when camrades open fire on a target at a distance I cant see. Then they get shot. We should all try to mark before opening fire -0 especially at a distance.
One of the reasons we held out so well at the stalemate thing lastnight was that we all marked - and double/triple marked every target.
[post=96759]Quoted post[/post]
Yes, as the SL that night it made my life a lot easier that there was very good communication and designation of targets.
We all knew - roughly - were the team was and where the enemy was. And that's half the battle in my book. When we lose battles - IMHO - it is 99% down to people 'lone wolfing' and having no co-ordination or good communication.
I would rather have 4 people co-ordinating than 6/7 people 'doing thier own thing' any day of the week.
Aside from anything it's more fun when there is good 'patter'.
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Sep 28 2005, 05:07 PM
The problem is, that the amount of players on each side has an impact on the composition of the squad. But yeah, generally speaking.
Comms related - One thing which I suck at myself but is important - instead of yelling "tank incoming" I should say something like what I see, how many, wherefrom are whereto. So that would be "1 tank near west bridge headed for south entrance" ... or something... I dont think more info is needed, as long as it is implicitit what flags you are talking about :)
[post=96713]Quoted post[/post]
Good point Delanvital, in the heat of battle I don't half talk a lot of crap *which you'll know if I've been in your squad* I tend to get a excited :dribble:
QuoteOriginally posted by BIG-Dewey@Sep 29 2005, 01:57 PM
Good point Delanvital, in the heat of battle I don't half talk a lot of crap *which you'll know if I've been in your squad* I tend to get a excited :dribble:
[post=96890]Quoted post[/post]
I've found myself talking a lot of complete gibberish...
"Lads look there's someone hiding down there ('oh shit they can see where 'down there' is - quick Ranger, recover!')....Er, I mean behind that house ('Bugger!') - Er the one next to me! ('SH*IT! JUST SHUT UP RANGER FOR GOD'S SAKE!')...
And so on and so forth!
I think it was BlueBall who dressed me down when I first started on dMw when I said (Karkland, Market Square) "Watch out guys, there's guys on the roof!"
( - Yes, which roof? Where? What direction? - Du-oh! - )
:blush:
Oh - and PS Dewey - I HAVE been doing some work! (Dewey is my boss - and he's on hoilday!)
:rolleyes: