Poll
Question:
Should planes be allowed in our AAS games?
Option 1:
votes: 0
Should planes be allowed on our AAS games?
For a long time I've pondered the use of planes on our AAS maps. Personally I don't like planes in BF2 period. For the following reasons:
- unlike choppers they are very hard(read nearly impossible to kill from the ground).
- unlike a chopper they are so fast you often don't know when or whey are coming from?
- which equates to random death as a bomb lands on your head or takes out your vehicle
- Its not a fight as you can't attack or defend yourself against a plane when your on the ground
- I don't see the fun in constantly bombing people who can't shoot back at you?
- to compound the problem on an AAS map the bomber has a very good idea of where the majority of the enemy will be!
- the only sure fire way of killing a plane is too send up another plane... great so now we have less fighting on the ground (which is less fun for the majority of ground hugging players) and the game is turning into a flight sim grrrr!
- can you say infinite bombs?
-did I mention I don't like them? :D
My verdict?
Using planes is sad (yes that was a very eleoquent and measured conclusion I'm sure you'll all agree!) :D
So I'd like to get your opinions and ask for your votes to see if I'm the only one thinking this or is this a widespread issue we should address for AAS nights?
To me - jets are just additional guided artillary.
The fact they can just circle round the map - resupplying by flying over the landing field - means they have an unlimited power for destruction WITHOUT a high level of vunerability.
In a 64 player map this isn't such a problem as:
a] You have your planes up to act as air patrols, and...
b] Because there are more of you this gives you a statistically higher chance of avoiding air bombardment.
On our smaller AAS maps, however, both of these advantages disappear as:
i) You may not have enough people to play pilots (or not enough to have a good pilot among your team), and ...
ii) Because you only go after one flag at a time the bombers know EXACTLY where to hit time after time, after time...
It gets really tedious sometimes.
The other major factor for annoyance though is the plane's high invunerability. Even the Stinger is too slow to catch them.
IMHO - what I would have done is use Stingers in thier shoulder carried variety for troops to ward off helicopters and have something beefier - like Rapier (UK) or Avenger (USA) - for fixed AA implacements.
- But back to reality - since we can't have a beefier AA missle capable of taking down the jets, then let's do the obvious and ban jets.
dMw AAS maps are just too small to have a weapon of this power at large.
No. Let's not start banning planes. You want to ban them, what's next? Choppers because they kill a lot of people as well...? Pffff.
Personally I like flying. And I'm sure there are other server regulars who do too. I don't fly all the time, but when I do I enjoy it as a different facet of the game.
Like most people here, I only really play on our server, and sometimes on the TG server. I don't usually get to fly on TG, because you have to be in a Jet squad (which get filled really quickly), their pilots are
really good, and a UK ping is against you.
So if this goes ahead - I won't be able to fly on my home server on the few occasions I actually do get online these days. Great.
A plane, especially the bomber, is an effective weapons platform, but:
- If you're flying you can't help your team cap a flag.
- If there's a heavily contested flag, like they usually are in AAS, you can't just blindly drop your bombs on it, for fear of friendly casualties.
- Fixed and mobile AA has got more effective in 1.03.
- The flag capture radius in AAS is huge - so what's to stop a squad spreading out to avoid an airstrike. A whole squad huddled round a flag just after it's gone neutral are a bomber's wet dream.
- Only occupied vehicles show up as bombing targets (this goes for AA emplacements as well), so don't occupy them unless absolutely necessary, and don't expect to drive across exposed areas with a jet in the air.
- If getting hit by air power narks you that much, learn how to fly yourself and mix it with your opponent. I guarantee if there's another jet hassling the bomber, the bomber will be more focussed on avoiding being shot down than attacking your team.
The whole plane thing balances out IMO. A potential pilot has to ask himself if he's helping his team in the best way every time he's about to take a jet up, or whether he'd better serve his mates on the ground.
Adapt and overcome. Don't moan about the jets because you just don't like them. I'd hate to be forced to start going elsewhere just to get some flight time in...
If you see me in a plane, I'm practicing. Don't worry about it.
The other day I flew a heli, got shot, landed and repaired it again and after repairs I flew it in to s_monkey, :D.
But some guys are to good with it so no plz not.
As far I'm concerned, plane=bomber. On an AAS map bomber = artillery. Whay is the comander mode set off? I assume artillery doesnt work too well with AAS? bomber = artillery = not on AAS? Does my logic miss something?
... and also, of course we have to go somewhere else to get commander practice.
This wouldn't be because of last night would it? :whistle:
Where you all lined up for me on a bombing run and I got 5 kills (twice), the names seem very familiar.
:devil:
Well, I took the fence vote. I don't mind planes - I rather enjoy flying them, though I find them to be rather fragile things. You can outrun/out-manouver missiles, but a well-guided stinger/AA-thingy can take out a plane quite happily. I've even been taken out by a well placed tank shell! I lean towards the "don't ban them" view though. Several maps don't have them, and it's just another inconvenience to overcome as a ground player. A well flown attack heli is just as savage, if not more so.
Perhaps the best compromise is for the pilots amongst us to try and put themselves on the opposite team to another decent pilot when possible. This way they will have an aerial battle to worry about (and enjoy!). Planes lining up for bombing runs make for quite decent targets. I would, however,
love to see shoulder-mounted stingers (unguided and/or guided) back in the game! They were fanatstic in bf1942's desert combat mod. One-shot kills on aircraft, but you had to judge the flight path to guess where to aim your missile! Used to be my favourite role, taking out planes...
QuoteOriginally posted by DuVeL@Nov 3 2005, 06:24 PM
The other day I flew a heli, got shot, landed and repaired it again and after repairs I flew it in to s_monkey, :D.[post=100636]Quoted post[/post]
ah yes, this was when I was on the
ground as well wasn't it! I regularly fly into choppers and other planes when I misjudge the speed/distance thing or when both planes jink in the same direction, but it's not intentional! :winkiss:
But seriously, I'm with Cadaver on this one.
I had a couple of FF incidents last night, one where I dropped bombs on a friendly tank (it did show as a enemy target) and wiped out 2 of our own peeps, the other was when attacking an enemy chopper, the missles went right past and swerved into our chopper. Boom, 2 more down.
As soon as the enemy got a plane or two up we were involved in dogfights and stopping each other bombing. Once I spawned at a base with AA and took out one of the enemy fighters.
AA may not be as good as you want it to be, but I'll tell you, once that tone kicks in to say you are painted, the last thing on your mind is lining up for a bombing run.
Flare reloads take forever on a plane, so once you have dropped a batch you are a sitting duck for about half a minute.
Repairing a plane isn't the easiest of things either, there is a major lack of engineers with jetpacks in BF2 and it takes about five or six good runs at the airstrip to fix a moderately damaged plane.
Ground troops are not easy to see or identify from the plane, so as Cadaver says, the best way to avoid planes is to sit in the capture zone and not by the flags. Stay near the AA sites and jump in when we are in a good firing position, the lock is instant and we won't see you in the targeting rectacle until you get in it, by then it's too late for us to do anything.
As soon as we had people in the contested base, the use of bombs is out of the question, so the plane is now an expensive UAV and there is one less player to help capture/defend the flag.
As I said - I prefer the Attack Helicopters rather than the planes...
At least infantry stand a chance against choppers! I always have a go with my grenade launcher!
:)
I just think infantry are woefully underequiped to fend off the jets (we don't even have shoulder fired Stingers).
I would like to see the Anti-tank class replaced by a 'Heavy weapons' class - where the soldier has the choice of either ATW, shoulder fired Stinger or 60mm mortor.
:)
Until then - it looks like we just have to get used to running and hiding!
(ONE THING - One thing that does really piss me off though is when a pilot also gets to be commander - this way he can SCAN to llok for targets across teh whole map! I know this doesn't affect the dMw server as we work without a commander...But it still annoys me! LOL)
See, I see it the other way round see.
Heliicopters are deadly and a ground troop doesn't stand a chance against a fully loaded chopper.
Planes come in, drop there bombs and the spash is fairly small, you then get a coupl of minutes to do your bits and know that he'll be back with a straight run.
The choppers, if flown by the usual suspects provide a hovering missile launcher and fixed cannon.
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Nov 4 2005, 10:44 AM
See, I see it the other way round see.
Heliicopters are deadly and a ground troop doesn't stand a chance against a fully loaded chopper.
Planes come in, drop there bombs and the spash is fairly small, you then get a coupl of minutes to do your bits and know that he'll be back with a straight run.
The choppers, if flown by the usual suspects provide a hovering missile launcher and fixed cannon.
[post=100678]Quoted post[/post]
I think the major point is the lack of offence vs a plane. I've read Libs comments on being painted by a stinger is scarey, but why? The success rate of actually downing a plane with a stinger seems minimal to me. I've tried lots of times and I can't ever remember downing a plane. It seems as a pilot you can out maneuver and out pace a missle and if you can't do that you've got flares too.
Perhaps we should actually have an experiment on the DMW server, we could get lib to fly his plane around a map, and then man a few AA and see how good effective the AA really are. Anyone up for this experiment? It would solve this argument and also may make us better at AA? :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Nov 4 2005, 09:44 AM
See, I see it the other way round see.
Heliicopters are deadly and a ground troop doesn't stand a chance against a fully loaded chopper.
Planes come in, drop there bombs and the spash is fairly small, you then get a coupl of minutes to do your bits and know that he'll be back with a straight run.
The choppers, if flown by the usual suspects provide a hovering missile launcher and fixed cannon.
[post=100678]Quoted post[/post]
I can only say that I've taken out attack choppers as infantry - but NEVER take out a jet as infantry.
It's nothing to do with thier offensive ordanance - it's to do with thier vulnerability:
In effect - while plane dropped bombs MAY have a smaller 'splash' as you put it, than a Cobra - I have a chance at taking out a Cobra (I finished one off with a shotgun a week back!!!) - but because bombers fly in and out and REPLEMISH - the cumilative effect is that they cause much more destruction with less chance of themselves being destroyed!
If the infantry had access to something like the Rapier or Avenger missiles all fair and good - but we don't.
I notice that EA/DICE have recongnized for more mobile infantry support and given us a TOW mounted on a Hummer in 'Spcial Forces' - I'd like a Avenger ounted on a Hummer to get rid of tose pesky planes!
Just a thought...
Failing having Rapier or Avenger fixed weapons - wouldn't it be nice to have twin 20mm canon AA gun emplacements!
:devil:
That would put the wind up the jet jockies!
:narnar:
(LOL Anyone remember 'Beachhead' on the Amiga???)
I think the biggest problem with the planes is that the physics model is utter crap! They have gone to a lot of trouble to make the vehicles realistic in terms of both speed, agility, suspension properties, turning circles etc but the planes and choppers handle so unrealistically its scarey. The physics for the chopper is better than that of the plane. The plane physics model is waaaaaay off.
IMNSHO of course ;)
Lib says jump in the stinger when you have a clear shot. Seems to me the first bombing run always takes out the stinger base - if there is one anyway.
Planes get shot down so little I have heard total shock from someone (shared by the whole team) when one actually was hit. Even that event was probably due to the bug where acidental deaths were attributed to another player as a kill.
I agree with Dewey lets do the test.
I agree with Ranger re: chopper vulnerability - we are always bringing them down.
The ONLY time I have successfully brought down a plane are these:
1) Am in a AA vehicle where I have fired off multiple Stingers in quick succession as a plane went dirctly over...But luck plays a big part in this (them being a crap pilot helps to)...And...
2) I took out Armitage or Blunt (sorry cant remember) when he was HOVERING in that F35 over a flag! I grenaded him from underneath - brought him down with one grenade.
I can say that in all the time I have played BF2 I can probably count the times I have brought down planes on one hand. Not good.
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Nov 4 2005, 10:13 AM
The plane physics model is waaaaaay off.
IMNSHO of course ;)
[post=100686]Quoted post[/post]
Agree with you there wholeheartedy mate. Afterburners making you turn faster and tighter? What's that all about...
But the woeful flight dynamics are a topic for another thread. ;)
Anyway guys, the fact of the matter is that AA, although not the one-shot fire-and-forget kill all you ground pounders seemingly want it to be, can still be effective. I have downed jets with it (and I'm about as far removed from being a l33t player as you can be), so it can be done. I've also been shot down by Oldie and Norm from fixed AA emplacements a few times now, so you can't just line a plane up on a bombing run and ignore the stinger locks.
AA is mostly a deterrent - the most effective counter for a jet, being another jet. I haven't seen any of you anti-jet detractors fly one in game yet. So rather than stating ad infinitum how it hurts to be bombed as infantry, and how vastly over-powered the jets are, put some effort in and learn to fly yourself. Get an effective counter up for your team! :ranting:
Maybe then I'll take these arguments a bit more seriously.
Phew! Have to cut back on the caffeine methinks. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Cadaver@Nov 4 2005, 11:01 AM
Agree with you there wholeheartedy mate. Afterburners making you turn faster and tighter? What's that all about...
But the woeful flight dynamics are a topic for another thread. ;)
Anyway guys, the fact of the matter is that AA, although not the one-shot fire-and-forget kill all you ground pounders seemingly want it to be, can still be effective. I have downed jets with it (and I'm about as far removed from being a l33t player as you can be), so it can be done. I've also been shot down by Oldie and Norm from fixed AA emplacements a few times now, so you can't just line a plane up on a bombing run and ignore the stinger locks.
AA is mostly a deterrent - the most effective counter for a jet, being another jet. I haven't seen any of you anti-jet detractors fly one in game yet. So rather than stating ad infinitum how it hurts to be bombed as infantry, and how vastly over-powered the jets are, put some effort in and learn to fly yourself. Get an effective counter up for your team! :ranting:
Maybe then I'll take these arguments a bit more seriously.
Phew! Have to cut back on the caffeine methinks. ;)
[post=100697]Quoted post[/post]
LOL - its all good friendly debate mate...
If we don't descuss these things we can't improve the games can we.
I appreciate your stance - I would mayeb more on your side if I could fly the TANGO things! LMAO
Not being funny, but I've found stingers to be pretty successful. I regularly managed to piss of the pilots on the odd ranked server by just sitting in a Stinger which was roughly on their circular attack/resupply route. Notched up 3 or 4 before they started blowing me up... :D
QuoteOriginally posted by Cadaver@Nov 4 2005, 11:01 AM
Agree with you there wholeheartedy mate. Afterburners making you turn faster and tighter? What's that all about...
[post=100697]Quoted post[/post]
The plane that hovers has whats called thrust vectoring,which can direct your thrust so as to aid your turning speed and angle. :)
Thats my story and I am sticking to it. :whistle: ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by A Twig@Nov 4 2005, 01:46 PM
Not being funny, but I've found stingers to be pretty successful. I regularly managed to piss of the pilots on the odd ranked server by just sitting in a Stinger which was roughly on their circular attack/resupply route. Notched up 3 or 4 before they started blowing me up... :D
[post=100708]Quoted post[/post]
A Twig, well you need to tell the rest of us what we are doing wrong then because as you've read on this thread we cannot kill them with AA. The other thing to bear in mind here, is that a decent pilot ie our dMw pilots will make sure there planes have good health by flying over their air bases. I mean I've hit planes so rarely in all the hours I've played BF2 I couldn't even tell you if a successful AA hit on a plane kills it outright or just damages it. Does anyone know the answer to this?
I still think its a good idea to test it on the dmw server perhaps this weekend. I'm a crap pilot, ie I can fly but I can't kill anything, so I'll volunteer to fly it, and we'll get some of the dmw guys to shoot me and see if how easy or hard it really is. Though obviously a good pilot would be able to evade a lot better than me.
Today's useless Info:
Technically Anti Aircraft Missiles are just that, MISS-iles not HIT-iles. They are designed to miss the plane and then explode in close proximity to them. The missile usually contains hundreds of little tungsten (or something) cubes to shred the plane or some even have expanding rods of metal that increase in size as they move out from the explosion thus shredding the other plane. Very few if any missiles were designed to actually HIT the target
I think it takes two stinger "hits" to take a plane down. I was harassing the TG pilots last night from a stinger site, just a pity there were so many oil-burning things around, else I'd have had a few of them!
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Nov 4 2005, 02:46 PM
Today's useless Info:[post=100719]Quoted post[/post]
:worship:
QuoteOriginally posted by Cadaver@Nov 4 2005, 12:01 PM
Anyway guys, the fact of the matter is that AA, although not the one-shot fire-and-forget kill all you ground pounders seemingly want it to be, can still be effective. I have downed jets with it (and I'm about as far removed from being a l33t player as you can be), so it can be done. I've also been shot down by Oldie and Norm from fixed AA emplacements a few times now, so you can't just line a plane up on a bombing run and ignore the stinger locks.
AA is mostly a deterrent - the most effective counter for a jet, being another jet. I haven't seen any of you anti-jet detractors fly one in game yet. So rather than stating ad infinitum how it hurts to be bombed as infantry, and how vastly over-powered the jets are, put some effort in and learn to fly yourself. Get an effective counter up for your team! :ranting:
Maybe then I'll take these arguments a bit more seriously.
Phew! Have to cut back on the caffeine methinks. ;)
[post=100697]Quoted post[/post]
Cadaver, we do not want or expect a one-shot fire-and-forget kill. What we do want is a fighting chance of hitting a plane from the ground. And at the moment we don't have that.
Personally I don't fly planes, because I like fighting on the ground. I find flying around boring to be honest and I'm not very good at it because I haven't put the hours in. But even when I do sometimes venture into the sky, usually on ranked servers the only time I die is usually when I crash :) I appreciate you enjoy flying and if we had the numbers that the TG guys enjoy and where not playing AAS I wouldn't mind them.
I think the main problem is that on some nights when you go on dMw one side may have a good pilot and the other side doesnt'. Worse, some nights you get two good pilots (ie Cadavar, Armitage, Lib) on the same side. I realise this is no-ones fault, but it gives one side a huge advantage and can make the game unbalanced and frustrating for the side that has no air cover.
Does anyone agree and if so how can we solve it?
I like the odd stint in a plane, I fly around, can't kill owt then decide to use it as a fast taxi.
OK guys - to get everyone back on track...
Just to re-state some of teh premises about 'no jet planes' theory!
;)
For a start my opinion is I don't mind them - ON BIG MAPS! (64 player)...
The maps are big enough to hold planes - and have enough people running around to justify them.
Where I see a proble is when you have a 4 v 4 player game on the dMw server and two of those guys are flying about in a jet.
To me anything bellow a 6 v 6 game should be 'infantry only' - full stop. It just marrs the game trying to have perhaps two guys out of four out of the game - in effect - because they are flying around (out of teh control of teh squad leader) bombing and straffing.
A 5 v 5 (or less) game really can't stand artillary or bombing because teh effect of a bombing run on such small teams is just too heavy. You could - in effect - wipe out the WHOLE of an opposing team with a good bomber strike!
That does not make for enjoyable or competitive play in my book.
We just all need to use some common sense - in games less than 6 v 6 lets say 'say out of teh planes', just as we say 'no commander'. When we get numbers on teh server above 6 v 6 then planes are fair play again (as there is less chance of wiping out the whole opposing force).
dMw is primariliy about enjoyment - and jet planes just do not make the infantry experience enjoyable when statistically you are liable to have a greater chance of dying with each and every bomb run...
Save the planes for larger matches where infantry at least have the advantage of safty in numbers. And I would quite happily accept bombing as a normal activity.
You can talk all you like about AA, whether planes are vunerable or not, and this that and the other - but in the end BF2 is primarily and infantry game and you have to ask; is it enjoyable for small player games to be so heavily influenced by jet bombers?
The answer is no.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ranger@Nov 4 2005, 03:22 PM
OK guys - to get everyone back on track...
Just to re-state some of teh premises about 'no jet planes' theory!
;)
For a start my opinion is I don't mind them - ON BIG MAPS! (64 player)...
The maps are big enough to hold planes - and have enough people running around to justify them.
Where I see a proble is when you have a 4 v 4 player game on the dMw server and two of those guys are flying about in a jet.
To me anything bellow a 6 v 6 game should be 'infantry only' - full stop. It just marrs the game trying to have perhaps two guys out of four out of the game - in effect - because they are flying around (out of teh control of teh squad leader) bombing and straffing.
A 5 v 5 (or less) game really can't stand artillary or bombing because teh effect of a bombing run on such small teams is just too heavy. You could - in effect - wipe out the WHOLE of an opposing team with a good bomber strike!
That does not make for enjoyable or competitive play in my book.
We just all need to use some common sense - in games less than 6 v 6 lets say 'say out of teh planes', just as we say 'no commander'. When we get numbers on teh server above 6 v 6 then planes are fair play again (as there is less chance of wiping out the whole opposing force).
dMw is primariliy about enjoyment - and jet planes just do not make the infantry experience enjoyable when statistically you are liable to have a greater chance of dying with each and every bomb run...
Save the planes for larger matches where infantry at least have the advantage of safty in numbers. And I would quite happily accept bombing as a normal activity.
You can talk all you like about AA, whether planes are vunerable or not, and this that and the other - but in the end BF2 is primarily and infantry game and you have to ask; is it enjoyable for small player games to be so heavily influenced by jet bombers?
The answer is no.
[post=100728]Quoted post[/post]
I'd agree with that. Dammit, who let you join our community with your common sense and amicable ways?
This may sound crasy but the 50 Cal machine guns (Jeeps, buggys, etc) can bring a plane down in short order. It takes some practise to get the hits but they REALLY tear up a plane, aslong as you spot the plane you can normally bring it down if its heading in your direction before its dropped its bombs.
These guns are also THE way to take down choppers imo (If your lucky you can also take out the crew of the aircraft in seconds leaving the jet to crash)
IF its so easy to bring down planes, once you know how, then we must practice. Anyone up for a plane bashing night? Those that can could share their knowledge, those that cant can learn.
When we all have the way of the Jedi, then the flyboys will give up because they just keep getting killed.
Of course we may then have a vote to ban infantry :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Nov 4 2005, 03:20 PM
I like the odd stint in a plane, I fly around, can't kill owt then decide to use it as a fast taxi.
[post=100726]Quoted post[/post]
*nods* yep me too... fast jet = taxi! :D
QuoteOriginally posted by FrEnZy@Nov 4 2005, 04:54 PM
This may sound crasy but the 50 Cal machine guns (Jeeps, buggys, etc) can bring a plane down in short order. It takes some practise to get the hits but they REALLY tear up a plane, aslong as you spot the plane you can normally bring it down if its heading in your direction before its dropped its bombs.
These guns are also THE way to take down choppers imo (If your lucky you can also take out the crew of the aircraft in seconds leaving the jet to crash)
[post=100741]Quoted post[/post]
I know the MG cut through heli's though even then you really need two MG's to bring it down before it gets away (unless its damaged beforehand).
You've got to do some pretty good leading to shoot a plane going at full pelt, but if you can show me how I'm willing to learn :)
Planes on bombing runs are only a problem if the other side dose not get a jet up to counter. I was having great fun the other day on Oman in the SU-34 Flanker (a great bomber). The US sent Lib up in a F35 which ended all my fun and kept all the guys on the ground nice and safe. It's nothing like the unstoppable power of Artillery
QuoteOriginally posted by FrEnZy@Nov 4 2005, 03:54 PM
This may sound crasy but the 50 Cal machine guns (Jeeps, buggys, etc) can bring a plane down in short order. It takes some practise to get the hits but they REALLY tear up a plane, aslong as you spot the plane you can normally bring it down if its heading in your direction before its dropped its bombs.
These guns are also THE way to take down choppers imo (If your lucky you can also take out the crew of the aircraft in seconds leaving the jet to crash)
[post=100741]Quoted post[/post]
:withstupid: , takes a bit of doing but I try and get into a position parallel to its bombing run and start firing as it draws level aiming well in front of the plane.
Yeah, or if you are directly in its line - the clay pigeon phrase is a "driven bird" - as it flies towards you aim a fraction above the cockpit bubble or below the undercarriage depending if the plane is climbing (in which case the former) or the latter if the plane is diving. Even if you dont destroy it you may cause enough damage for the pilot to abort the run.