Gents,
Please try to put some time aside this weekend to review the comments made in this topic:
http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t...?t=1059&start=0 (http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1059&start=0)
I would like the admins to formulate proposals that we can put to the vote with regards to the match-playing future of the clan.
I've tried to summarise the comments made in that thread into a single web page to make it easier to scan through and come to conclusions. I have had it use a bit of editorial licence, but hey, someone has to! So apologies in advance if I have misquoted or incorrectly paraphrased something one of you peeps said, or put it in the wrong column!
If it helps anyone, it's here (http://www.btinternet.com/~p.d.herbert/mhpcs/dmwsquadsystem.html)
TL. 8)
GJ TL 8)
I'm just resting my eyes now from the glare of red on black 8O :D
Before we decide how to progress this issue can I remind everyone that we have the new Jolt Ladder to add (or not) to the deliberations.
The first thing i beleive we need to sort is the team sizes.
My point being:-
We may have 24 members but at least half that amount dont actually play anymore or very rarely.
Squirrel, Tutonic, Mr eggs, FBG
just to name a few off my head Oh and doggers and Stryker (wether this may change for them when this situation has been resolved)
We also have to accept that people may want to have a break from playing or just cannot play regularly and some people just want to play on MH and not play in matches -- (i personally dont mind this because if you say to people "OK if you dont play in matches you cant be in dMw" then people dont feel part of the community and may not want to stay here On a personal note the community is why i come to MH and dMw)
Problem = "Zombies" was built up with the main regulars the people who play every night and can field a full team.
We took all the mainstream regulars and left the others behind leaving people as stated above who just cannot play certain nights or are working late or any other situation.
My proposal is to:-
Keep two teams wether it be zombies, Ghosts, Ghouls or Nazgul as this part did seem to work well (3 would be too many - we cant feild 2 never mind 3)
Split the skill the main regulars evenly and fill up from there.
Regulars are:-
Oldbloke, Tealeaf, Sadako, JAS, Albert, Smite,
Play two leagues only wether it be Jolt, ED or Clanbase (only play 2 official matches a week)
If people cant make a match then at least we have bigger squads to choose from and if one squad cannot field enough then one can be chosen from the other squad.
Hopefully Oldies new Availability page will make life easier for Squad Leaders to decide on who has played recently and who hasnt.
This is only my idea but it is keeping the structure there that works but taking away the animosity that eliteism has been brought in.
If any of this does not make sense i appologise as i am nackered.
Another addition Squad leaders:-
Oldie is a very good leader But Tealeaf is wasted as just a Deputy if we were to have 2 squads it would need to have a strong leader on each team.
The differece a strong leader makes is incredible as i have noticed when either Oldie or Tealeaf leave a game.
In my oppinion there is nobody else in dMw like them and to have two in one team would be a waste.
QuoteAnother addition Squad leaders:-
Oldie is a very good leader But Tealeaf is wasted as just a Deputy if we were to have 2 squads it would need to have a strong leader on each team.
The differece a strong leader makes is incredible as i have noticed when either Oldie or Tealeaf leave a game.
In my oppinion there is nobody else in dMw like them and to have two in one team would be a waste.
Is now a bad time to mention that I like playing with Oldie? 8O Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't mention that. :oops:
But I like being a deputy - it means I have someone on a higher rung to blame when it all goes pear-shaped :D
I appreciate the sentiments Smite, and now that I have finished blushing an' all, I can say that i know what you mean. But it would be in the best interests of dMw and the MH PCS community (I like you am here for the community) to develop a number of strong leaders so that when Oldie or I are not around there is still good leadership available. PCS doesn't work without people willing to take the lead, and fortunately we have a number of people that could develop into that role with a little help, TLC and encouragement. I would have no problem stepping over to an SL role, but we need some upcoming 'leaders'.
My tongue in cheek comment at the start of this post (yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have said that either :oops: ) was slightly serious though. I would feel a little emasculated if the role of SL blocked me from playing in the same match team as Oldie - I enjoy his company on the server, like minds and all that.
Anyway, group hug is now over. "Go back about your business please folks, there's nothing to see here" said Officer Barbraidy.
TL. 8)
I know what you mean i like playing with certain peple more than others as when you play with them you feel a connection ie:- ypu know where they will be in a certain situation but TBH this would only be once in a week that you would not be playing with these/this people/person.
But i beleive this is where the problem lies people learn to play with certain teamates and then they dont get to play with them in matches.
Myself and JAS work well as a team but we have never played in a match together to my knowledge.
OK, I've had a chance to look at the summary now and I reckon that 6 issues were raised to a level that registered as significant on my significant-o-meter.
Note, this first point is mine - only 16 of 25 dMw members responded, which is in itself disappointing when such an important issue is being discussed.
i) Almost unanimous acknowledgement that a squad system helps SLs greatly.
ii) Almost unanimous acknowledgement that the 'best and 'the rest' squads may cause a divide to be felt within the clan.
iii) Following the raising of the 'availability page' there was general agreement that whilst nothing to do with the squad system, some members suffer from an inexcusable lethargy and don't bother updating it.
iv) General agreement that all squads had improved due to a higher degree of continuity in those team mates you play alongside.
v) General agreement that for Cups/Knock-out Tournaments that we should submit our best group of players.
vi) General agreement that mixed squads may be more appropriate and that maybe a 3 squad system is better, as long as it runs alongside a player rotation system, so that we have some 'refreshment' of the squads on an ongoing basis.
On Saturdays and with wine in me (which it is in abundance right now) I'm a poor excuse for a Theorist/Reflector, but fit in right well with the Activist/Pragmatist camp. So from my reading of the posts I can tell you that I have a cunning plan........ :lol:
1. Keep a squad-based & SL-based system.
2. Replace the 'Best' & 'the Rest' squads with more evenly skill-balanced squads.
3. Increase the number of squads from 2 to 3 (we have enough clan members & matches to ensure we all get enough games.
4. Monitor availability to see if it causes any problems (I don't think it will - with subs we should always have enough players).
5. Instigate a 'refresh' program that moves players from squad to squad over the months/weeks. (I am assuming that it will be fairly easy to get 3 colours shown on availability for 3 squads and not too time-consuming to move a couple of people's colours each month?). I am happy to maintain a record of the squads and the rotations (and I can email a spreadsheet to SLs as needed) - I can then just edit a post in the Squad section of the Forums say once per month to show the new squad makeup.
6. Keep a 'Best' squad recorded somewhere for Cups/Knockout Tournaments.
7. Identify 3 SLs to lead the squads, arrange wars and agree which squad will be playing them.
8. Identify (at least) 3 SLs-in-waiting for development, possibly from a 2ic role.
9. Set out and post (probably in the Admin section fo the Forum) a 'training program' for the 2ic role so that they have some sense of going forward rather than always being in the SL's shadow.
Gee, I just realised 2 things:-
- I managed to get 9 action points out of only 6 concerns 8O
- Having just presented 'the solution', I now have nothing for the peeps to vote on 8O
Dang it! Your thoughts please gentlemen.........then we can work out suitably cunning questions so that they vote on something :D
TL. 8)
I was the first person to mention 3 squads and i now regret it as i think it would be a very bad idea. Ghosts have not manned a full side yet but Zombies have split these into two even teams and rotate on a regular basis and everyone will be happy if you split 24 by 3 = 8 a squad and then remove people who dont come on regular (a guess) 8 leaves nearly 5 a side if someone doesnt or cannot turn up you have no marging for errors and then the whole squad thing is out the window as members from other squads be required to join. Also 2 even teams of 16 (excluding non regulars) two teams of 8 can field any 5 V 5 or 6 V 6 easily and then add in the non normal attendies and then the missing or not available factor is extended on.
Errm im pissed so i know this makes sense in my head so ....sorry if it dont for you.
To summarise Please dont make 3 squads very bad very bad idea ...bad smite should never had thought of it.
QuoteI was the first person to mention 3 squads and i now regret it as i think it would be a very bad idea. Ghosts have not manned a full side yet but Zombies have split these into two even teams and rotate on a regular basis and everyone will be happy if you split 24 by 3 = 8 a squad and then remove people who dont come on regular (a guess) 8 leaves nearly 5 a side if someone doesnt or cannot turn up you have no marging for errors and then the whole squad thing is out the window as members from other squads be required to join. Also 2 even teams of 16 (excluding non regulars) two teams of 8 can field any 5 V 5 or 6 V 6 easily and then add in the non normal attendies and then the missing or not available factor is extended on.
Errm im pissed so i know this makes sense in my head so ....sorry if it dont for you.
To summarise Please dont make 3 squads very bad very bad idea ...bad smite should never had thought of it.
The trouble is that lots of people agreed with your bad idea Smite :? :wink:
My above post was trying to summarise the comments that were made in that 4 page thread. So I welcome the feedback and comments :D
I think you are correct in stating that 3 x 8 man squads would have trouble fielding a team of 5 or 6 every night and would almost certainly have to use backups to make up the numbers. The problem is that 2 x squads of 12/13 would probably have exactly the same trouble as the 16 man Ghost squad has demonstrated. That's why I thought we would not have trouble fielding teams, as we would use backups in almost every match, probably. Two squads wold be simpler to handle, but you could say that 3 is a bonus as it would almost certainly add to the mixing of players as subs regularly step in :lol:
Personally I have no problem with either 2 or 3 squads. Both have their pros and cons and the above list of action points is easily amended.
There are some political issues to consider as well, such as the SLs. If we move to 2 balanced squads and remembering your above comments, who would be the SLs? Any problems?
More discussion please :D
TL. 8)
I CANNOT LEAD MY DOG AROUND THE BLOCK HE TAKES ME...
Just thought i would point that out :D
Right, so I can quote you as saying that you'll "follow your bitch anywhere" right? :wink:
Any additional thoughts on the squad system though? We need to come to some agreement about what we present to the members for them to vote on......
TL. 8)
I've not added any comments before because I wanted to stay impartial when the decision was made to keep/abolish the system.
My thoughts are now revealed for all to see.
The current system is good for high end ladder matches, as in we field our strongest side when we are playing for points, but when we are playing friendlies where points do not matter I feel that it would be good to take a mix of players.
This will improve some weaker players game as they may be playing against a stronger team than they are used to, but more importantly, it helps to keep our family together, which is the main reason why I play here.
As Smite pointed out, the community is what its all about.
So, so summarise...
Keep the squad system in a more generalised state, as in that the squad leaders can pick anyone from the available list who they feel will enable a win for points matches. For friendlies it should be a good mix.
I will hopefully be able to spend more time here now I've finished migrating our main server over to new hardware (today is my first day off for weeks!) so expect to see me about more :)
I personally think choice one:-
2 squads
Equal split of regulars that is hard core regulars
Back fill with non regulars therefore you WILL get a full squad for each match.
New Squad leaders leave them as they are.. it is working sheepy is coming on, but i think needs a bit more assistance seeing as his PC is capput.
Your coice Two:-
And if Oldie or Gandy has any ideas make it choice 3 and 4
Sorry i realise i have not been adding smiley faces
:D :) :o 8O :? 8) :lol: :twisted: :evil:
I agree with the three squad method, however can we have it set in something less riggid that stone? maybe putty or mud?
IE If there is a game set for a particular squad then if its a very important game or a knockout then that squads players have first dibs for places in the game...... other wise its open to anyone with a FAIR chance of being picked.
This will still maintain an A team that we all recognise and can easily call up for special duties.....
Yep I called it a popularity contest only because when I play for keeps I'm a pretty good frag monkey, lets be honest we have around 15 good frag monkey who are above the dMw 'average' way too much for one squad.. if we were riggid and only used said large A team squad.....
errrm.. yeah, lost me point. I'm just asking for some flexibility without having to go round prooving ourselves all the time....
oh yeah. oldie, simple email reminders would make it 100 times easier for me to play match games.... with my busy schedule I allways forget to check, however because of that schedule I'm always within ear shot of a PC with loud speakers and my new mail chime :-)
One of the most appreciated and welcomed benefits of the squad system was that people knew that on their squad night they had a good chance of playing. It would be nice if whatever system we agree on could maintain that benefit.
Are we saying we want 2 or 3 squads? We have comments for both above. I personally don't mind which.
It is apparent from all of the above comment that we should make the squads mixed ability - split the hardcore regulars, backfill (to quote someone) and then rotate people on a regular basis to keep the mix fresh.
The above suggestions also proposed that in addition to the squads, where we play cups or knockouts the 'best' squad be picked irrespective of squads.
I think we can take it as read that like the current system, whichever squad match it is, where that squad cannot fill all of the slots, that other players be picked form those other people available. So flexibility (mud/putty) can be maintained.
In practice the current system has proved fairly flexible and I see no reason why the above should not also maintain that adaptability.
We need to bring this to a close fairly soon to provide feedback to the members. So may I propose the following deadline?
Deadline: 10.00pm Wednesday 5th February
TL. 8)
OK, I have tried to summarise what everyone has said above in the proposals:
1. Keep a squad-based & SL-based system.
2. Abolish the 'Best' & 'the Rest' squads
3. Create 2 new and evenly skill-balanced squads.
4. Instigate a 'refresh' program that moves players from squad to squad over the months.
5. Keep a 'Best' squad recorded somewhere for Cups/Knockout Tournaments.
Does that summarise the general view fairly?
TL. 8)
nah-hah I pointed out that mixes should be picked anyways WHILE maintaining squads....
we should pick A league (as in singular) where we want to make our fragmonkey mark and join the other 99.999999% of clans.... then all other leagues/matches etc are played with a mix.
On the "guarenteed better chance for a game theme" my being one of the mass un-washed and a defeatest is the main reason for not putting my name down.... my time really is that scarce so booking a slot to attend a game and not getting on is NO go.... the old pick team in order of registration of interest was the best for me..... at least I knew I was playing....
in fact eureka.... thats exactly why I cant play now... this whole random picking deal has thrown it for me.
Quotenah-hah I pointed out that mixes should be picked anyways WHILE maintaining squads....
Colour me a daft prat if I am missing something painstakingly obvious here, but why maintain the current squads AND pick'n'mix? :? They are mutually exclusive are they not? In any case, the single most prevalent answer from the member comments was that they wanted to get rid of the current 'best' and 'the rest' squads and make the squads mixed ability. The new squads would maintain the same "if it is your squad's match then you'll get preference over any member of the other squad" selection policy, but members would be rotated to ensure that all members get to play with all other members.
Quotewe should pick A league (as in singular) where we want to make our fragmonkey mark and join the other 99.999999% of clans.... then all other leagues/matches etc are played with a mix.
This would banish your so called 'popular' players to one match per week and never again playing with other members of the clan - something that the members did not want to see happen. The suggestion was that for our Cup or Knockout matches, that we select purely on a 'frag-monkey' basis to put the best squad out there to compete for dMw, leaving normal league or ladder matches to the squads.
QuoteOn the "guarenteed better chance for a game theme" my being one of the mass un-washed and a defeatest is the main reason for not putting my name down.... my time really is that scarce so booking a slot to attend a game and not getting on is NO go.... the old pick team in order of registration of interest was the best for me..... at least I knew I was playing....
This is the single most popular benefit of the squad system. You have a much better chance of playing on a night where it is your squad's match. Our experience to date has shown that if you were a Ghost (the great un-washed) you had a solid-gold guarantee of a game as every match needed Zombies to make up the numbers - so you should have put your name down :wink: Anyway, the SLs have been doing their best to make sure that all peeps get a game and if you are only available on a limited number of occassions then that would have been taken into account in the match selection policy - although to date it is only Zombies who have been missing out on a game.
Whilst the availability page idea is a good one, it does discriminate against those who have no work web access or who are out on-site for the day. As an 'early-bird booker' myself I recognise the same group of people who like me always book early and therefore would always get a game under that system. In any case though, (a) the webbie does not always reflect the order you register as available for the game (I have seen it happen to me on a number of ocassions as my name slips down the order :( , (B) it has yet to make any difference to Ghosts and © I cannot recall the match selection policy EVER having operated on the basis of who registered first on availability? Perhaps Oldie could confirm?
Quotein fact eureka.... thats exactly why I cant play now... this whole random picking deal has thrown it for me.
As has been shown, if you had put your name down you would have had a copper-bottomed guarantee of a match as I cannot recall a single match where the 16 person Ghost squad managed to field the 5 or 6 man squad on their own without Zombie assistance. This may be unfair as I have not been there for every match myself, but this is my recollection. :D
Jeez, I'm living up to my Problem Child name aren't I :cry:
TL. 8)
heh, it seems there may of been a fair few peeps on ghosts who didnt turn up for the same reasons so ghosts ended up being short of players.... OW... that'd be the irony.
I get the impression we'd be complaining about the number of players turning up for a match if it were not for the squads... I dont remember who suggested it but a rotating squad rota (I dunno, quarterly re ordering) of mixed ability may be the way to go. I'd certainly have three squads at any one time, as you rightly pointed out, there are always peeps ready to fill any vacant slots so 3 squads or 8-ish would prob suffice.
I'm still mulling all of this over but something I think we need to know is:
How many matches would each member ideally like to play each week?
If we organise three matches a week (one for each of the three squads we're considering) and there's 8 people in each squad then there's a good possibility that members *may* play less than once per week.
If, like me, members are looking to play competitively more than once a week then we need additional matches organised.
Is it worth running a quick poll to find out if one match a week is acceptable?
QuoteI dont remember who suggested it but a rotating squad rota (I dunno, quarterly re ordering) of mixed ability may be the way to go.
Me. :D
I think we do need to assess how often peeps want to play - although you could draw your own conclusions from the normal turn out. Maybe a quick 2 day poll would tell us all we need to know?
TL. 8)
So would we build 3 teams for 3 matches seems logical but wont we still have the same problem of not making a full squad every week??? Or is this not a problem?? am i just being a little over dramatic about the fact we wont have a stable team to leanr how each other play????
Shall i get my coat and be quiet :? :?
/me walks toward coat and looks back longingly :D
Having thought about this a bit more, and from a practical perspective, it is going to be a hell of a lot easier to run 2 squads rather than three. If you look at the number of matches we usually play in, the nights that peeps can or can't play then you can see that 3 squads is one too many. Especially when you factor in the significant number of peeps who do not play in matches.
Two teams seems the way forward,
Mixed ability,
Rotated on a regular basis,
With SLs and 2ic for each squad.
Agreed?
TL. 8)
(desperately hoping to bring this thread to a conclusion :roll: )
I agree. 2 squads of mixed skills is the sensible approach.
I'd add that we should arrange 2 ED and 2 CB matches per week. Again, to stop the divisive nature of squads, these should be shared as one of each for each squad.
I would also add that if the availability continues to be a problem then we should consider either increasing the membership to 30 or replace inactive members with new blood. Personally, I'm not in favour of kicking anyone out solely on the grounds that they don't play matches for dMw. We are a PCS clan that also play matches. Our focus shall always be PCS and we should recognise that some of our MH regulars want to join our clan as a badge of community and not neccessarily to play competitive matches.
guys I'm really tryin to take a more active role.... damnit I've invested the money by buyin me a much needed decent pc of my own (current decent pc is the wife's :-)
Like I've said, an automated reminder email of the morning and say 1hr before the match would be a life saver for me.
I'm not fussed if playing to win or playing in a regular league match.... ok we're supposed to play to win all the time, however I personally have enjoyment playing 90% of the time and then the breaking a sweat and hurting wrists games play :D
I take it that was agreement to the 2 squad system we just mentioned, eh? :wink: It sure would be nice to have you onboard again Stryker....
I guess the email thang is another matter, but can I take it that we are generally happy to change the squads as outlined above?
TL. 8)
I concur
Votes Smite, Tealeaf, Oldie (Add additional by edit)
After listening to all the points made in discussions regarding the squad system, TeaLeaf and I would like to propose the following for ratification by the dMw admins.
Two squads of mixed ability. Ghosts will play Sunday (ED) and Wednesday (CB). Zombies will play Monday (ED) and Thursday (CB).
Ghosts:
OldBloke (Squad Leader)
Albert
Benny
BlueBall
DonkeyCheeseGrater
FatBob
Gandalf-LOJ
MAD_ness
Rad_Man
SecretSquirrel
Sheepy
SLoWHaND
Tutonic
Zombies:
TeaLeaf (Squad Leader)
Aga
Armitage
DogMeat
Flibber Meister
FrEnZy!
JonnyAppleSeed
MisterEggs
Sadako
Smite.Thee
Squ0nk
Stryker
We feel that these balanced squads playing in both ED *and* CB will go a long way to eliminate the divisive nature of the squad system.
Assuming there's no strong objections we propose that we announce the new system to the membership on Wednesday 26th Feb.
We intend holding regular reviews of the system to, amongst other things, enable people to move between squads.
So. Any objections? Thoughts?
Not from me
Only that the zombies playing on monday and thursdays are a bit of a problem atm as that is the nights i struggle most to play.
I also know that this isnt the place to mention this but currently im going through a stage of thinking about giving up on CS and internet gaming all together but i dont want anyone else to know about this im just gona be away for a while (might pop in from time to time to see if im still bored of it)
oh dear, whats brought that on smite? (reply via sep thread).
Fellow admins,
I feel it's appropriate to increase the size of the clan again.
We are proposing to play 4 matches per week and I feel with the current level of inactivity/apathy that we can best prepare for this by injecting some new, and hence keen, blood into the clan.
I propose asking for applicants from our MH regulars (as usual) with the hope of picking up 5 new members to take us to 30.
I'm confident that we have the resources within the clan to accomodate this increase.
Your thoughts please.
I fear the apathy was brought on by the last increase. I've been heard to say that deadmen is becoming very .com now.... I'm just waiting for us to start selling the t-shirt and mugs...... hey there is an idea :-)
I feel I also should add that MH is close to becoming a burdon to the business. We buy bandwidth in very large chunks. While Black Adder is not a very big bandwidth glutton oweing to its nature IE short sharp bursts it is doing a good job with pushing us into the next bandwidth bracket. Beleive it or not it would be more economically viable if we hosted 2 or 3 clan servers on a commercial basis as opposed to hosting one weather its paid for or not..... stange eh.
May I just add to that, Crosswired is continually growing.... there is a point where we will simply buy 10/100Mbit/s lins staraight out and MH will not be an issue.... but until that day its a very careful balancing game for Crosswired Ltd.
There's no way I'd do anything to damage Crosswired.
But what's the issue here? We restrict the server to 16 players so that's finite.
Do we need to become a subscription-based clan and pay our own way? It's not un-heard of.
Not for the time being oldie.... prob never, however under the confidence of this private admin forum I thought I should at least apraise you all of the situation.
In the near future I think a public PCS server is out of the question tho.
Just be very careful when choosing new members. I've noticed the influx of outsiders sometimes seems to be more than we can handle on a PCS education front.... its must be because I've recently been in a fair few games that more resembled a public server.
On a further note I'm not flat against 30 members, only voicing concern. The server cooperative that I'm in shows things are a lot more stable with more members aka more combined clout in man-power and resources....
however its turned into an organisational knightmare.
Apropos nothing in particular, I'd play more often if I had to...
Let me explain. I'm aware that I hardly play now for various reasons, some mentioned, some not. Which sort of shines a spotlight on the question of commitment to a) the clan and B) the PCS thing..
Anyway, things might be different if, as a condition of retaining my active membership, I was required to be available for active duty (for, say, a minimum of) one week out of four. I'm sure that sort of checking could be worked into the availability doohickey and a red flag waved against people who don't play for a month without good reason - i.e. me :oops:
Non-active members would then be removed from the roster and their membership could be reviewed by the Council of Elders or something. Particularly if there were a list of applicants waiting to join the clan, eager and straining to kick serious booty..
And yes, the phrase "turkeys voting for Xmas" is ringing in my ears...
D"hold my foot while I shoot it"M
hhhmm, I think it was more enjoyable when things were looser, let alone tighter.... that idea sucks DM, never mind your foot, I think a bullet in the head would be better... or are your brains still in your ass?
Quotehhhmm, I think it was more enjoyable when things were looser, let alone tighter.... that idea sucks DM, never mind your foot, I think a bullet in the head would be better... or are your brains still in your ass?
Ah, cheers bud. I knew I could count on your full support, regardless of whether you understand the question or not. They broke the mould when they were making you...
D"STFU you arsemuppet"M
I think that it would certainly be possible to work some of the above DM comments into management of the two squads through the month - it may as DM said help some people commit to certain slots for clan matches.
As for the Crosswired bit I hear good news! It is great to hear that Crosswired is growing and I would echo Oldie's comments that whatever we do should in no way damage or restrict Crosswired's commercial success.
As for 30 peeps in the clan, we could certainly control the extra 5 members and it would help offset some inactives.
Finally, as nobody has opposed Oldie's initial post in this thread, I guess it is only fair to post it out for the members. Over to you Oldie......
TL. 8)