4. Language
All players should hold a professional level of conduct at all time. Please keep your language in the forums and on the server at a professional and mature level. Play as though you are an example for other players and set a good one. New players will often follow examples set by veteran players, good OR bad. [/b]We all tolerate a degree of variance in 'language' from time to time, particularly at LANs, but it seems NF upped the ante (the 'c' word in particular is offensive to many and was probably the straw that broke the camel's back) and went a bit too far this time.
Put simply, it is fairly clear that NF did not adhere to these standards. I don't believe there is a defence to this point. So, he broke Membership Standards and Admin action was justified.
Next point: Was the Admin action appropriate and did it follow Admin Standards?
Sounds fair. I get the feeling that NF KNEW he was out of order but needed to 'bluster'. Human nature eh? Nothing like it :D
Still, it keeps the pot boiling and made for an interesting interlude. :D :dmw: :dmw: :dmw:
I've had a PM from NF. I have copied TL in reply.
And I've acknowledged receipt to him.
BB any thoughts on my above post?
*************
For the record:
Re-reading my above post I am not sure this point comes across entirely clearly, so I have PM'd Oldie to say so and will point it out now for the record:
I feel Oldie's action was totally justified given NF's action.
We need to re-write the rules to give us as Admins the support necessary when we take such action. We're a mature gaming community with responsible Admins and we don't need someone trying to use a technicality in the rules to argue against action we have taken. I have been meanign to take a look at this for a while (along with the re-wording of the website etc) and just haven;t had time to do it. I will move the job a little further up my WIP list and try to get around to it in the next month or so.
TL.
No, TL, I think you make, as usual, good accurate points. I am disappointed that NF felt that I was having a go at him because of "previous" differences of opinion - I consider myself above that.
His first post on this subject showed a lot about his character and if he didn't want all this aired publicly why not just PM oldie and deal with it that way? I agree with Ron, I think there is an element of bluster coupled with a tendency to be bullish <- my perception of him.
I'll give this 24 hours and then if nobody is in disagreement I will act on the above basis.
TL.
I suppose one point that could be made to NF is that at no point did he ask how long the ban was for but that we were also incorrect in not informing him that it was for 24 hours.
May also be worth PMing him to let him know he will get a response in 24 hours. (TL copied in my reply to NFs reply. I let NF know that TL would try to respond in 24 hrs.)
Read this after my PM to you BB.
TL.
I agree with that.....A good outcome for all concerned
I was going to reply to this when i first read it by saying "Nice one TL seems fair to me".
After reading parts 1, 2 and 3 of his disputes i don't personally want anything to do with him. He is an arrogant ass who does not deserve to wear the dMw tag.
All that i read was a pathetic attitude to authority, be it as little as any dMw admin applies. He had the option of taking it up with Oldie but decided to make threats about new members ....pathetic.
Kick him out and good riddance.
Harsh? Read his posts again.
He's not doing himself any favours is he? My old mum used to say "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!"
I am not going to reply to Ninja's post in the main forum. it will not add anything and he is just pushing for the sake of pushing. His language was out of order. He was lucky I am not yet familiar enough with BF2 rcon to have kicked him from the comamnd line. What he is trying to achieve here I don't know as TL gave him the right to reply (which I have no problem with) and he hasn't posted anything other than the private posts he sent to me saying that he didnt remember saying those things. How could he forget? So, in short I will not reply to NFs latest post unless it starts being skewed to reflect things in a light that doesn't reflect what actually happened. he swore when I TKd him, he now denies doing it. End of story.
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman@Dec 6 2005, 11:24 PM
He's not doing himself any favours is he? My old mum used to say "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!"
[post=104234]Quoted post[/post]
There seems to be a lot of "smoke and mirrors" coming from NF. He is trying hard to deflect the issue from the fact that his behaviour was unacceptable to the fact that the admins have "the knives out" (his words not mine). i guess therefore there are two answers required to him.
A thought. :lightbulb: Are there server logs for the night in question?
The way i see it is that yes he swore and made a mistake, anyone of us would hold our hands up and say "sorry for that i had to much to drink and didnt realise fully what i was doing...it wont happen again" etc.... But he has turned it all on Oldie as some type of vendetta. Now i have known Oldie enough to know that he is nowhere near like the person being portrayed and quite frankly it pisses me off.
What does he contribute to even start making these accusations?
Does he or has he ever played matches as a charlie? Not that i have seen.
Does he push dMw's teamwork and attitude? Not that i have ever seen.
Or does he just like to come on when he likes and generally do what the hell he choses?
This is not what a dMw charlie or even bravo member should be doing or thinking of doing. Again get rid of bad rubbish. We are often to soft and the time where we actually get strong on something should not be up for debate.
Please can someone confirm that his ban from the BF2 server is now lifted (i.e. it was a 24 hour ban)?
Thanks.
I'm typing my summary right now - but it will be edited here until it has *FINAL* written at the top as I'm having to do this between other jobs.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Dec 9 2005, 12:24 PM
Please can someone confirm that his ban from the BF2 server is now lifted (i.e. it was a 24 hour ban)?
Thanks.
I'm typing my summary right now - but it will be edited here until it has *FINAL* written at the top as I'm having to do this between other jobs.
TL.
[post=104544]Quoted post[/post]
Can't check server from here but I'll be home in an hour or so so I'll check through BF2CC then and if he is still banned will lift the ban in accordance with admin standards unless someone posts here to tell me differently.
Thanks BB.
TL.
*****************************************************
***********************DRAFT************************
*****************************************************
************AWAITING RESPONSE FROM ARMITAGE********
*****************************************************
*****************************************************
On 5th December at 10.29pm I received a complaint from Ninja_Freak about Oldbloke, alledging buse of his authority as an admin on the BF2 server. I have reviewed the following information in reaching my conclusion:
• Correspondence to me from Ninja_Freak
• Information posted in the Admin Forums
• Correspondence from BlueBall
• Correspondence from Armitage (as requested by Ninja_Freak)
• Information in three threads posted in the public BF2 section of the dMw forums
*****************************************************
The events are as follows:
4/12 22:02 Oldbloke posted to the Admin section details of a kick and ban from the BF2 server applied to Ninja_Freak Other comments added another Admin at 22:19.
4/12 23:21 Ninja_Freak made an initial post to the forums asking why he had been kicked from the BF2 server.
4/12 23:53 Initial forum thread closed by Oldbloke.
5/12 22:17 Second thread posted by Ninja_Freak.
5/12 23:22 Second thread closed by Oldbloke.
5/12 23:47 Third thread posted by Ninja_Freak.
6/12 00:07 Third thread closed by Oldbloke.
6/12 13:53 Ninja_Freak requested removal of BlueBall’s additional posts (using his Admin powers) to the then closed threads.
*******************************************************
It is clear from the above that after the initial incident on the BF2 server on 4/12 a lot happened when Ninja read Oldbloke’s response on 5/12. In less than 2 hours on 5/12 two new threads were opened, two were closed and I received the formal complaint.
Areas considered:Potential abuse of Admins powers by Oldbloke
Action by Ninja_Freak
Leading up to the ban:Ninja_Freak has stated that whilst playing BF2 and he typed swear words into general chat and received an automated Server warning for swearing. He has confirmed his response as "I will not stop swearing you cun$†(using the $ and not the T) but stated that the response was meant to be a joke.
Separate Admin reports have confirmed that Ninja was also swearing over voice comms that same evening.
The Ban:Oldbloke issued the kick and ban from the BF2 server in response to the typed "I will not stop swearing you cun$†comment.
Findings:Did Ninja_Freak’s behaviour on the from the BF2 server warrant Admin action? QuoteOriginally posted by Membership Standards"+-->QUOTE(Membership Standards")
Language & Behaviour
Members should maintain a professional level of conduct at all times. Please keep your language and behaviour both in the forums and on the servers at that same level. [/b]
QuoteOriginally posted by Player Standards+-->QUOTE(Player Standards)
4. Language
All players should hold a professional level of conduct at all time. Please keep your language in the forums and on the server at a professional and mature level. Play as though you are an example for other players and set a good one. New players will often follow examples set by veteran players, good OR bad. [/b]
We all tolerate a degree of variance in 'language' from time to time, but an Admin had already been upset by the degree of swearing exhibited early in the evening to the point of intending to send a PM to Ninja_Freak to ask for some moderation of the language used. This was superceded by reading Oldbloke’s post to the Admins and the Admin concerned added their comments to the Admin thread. I would suggest that whilst frustration with the language was already raised by voice comms comments, the ante was upped by use of the 'c' word. This is offensive to many and was the straw that broke the camel's back.
• Yes, Ninja_Freak’s reported swearing via voice comms and typed response warranted Admin action. Reference: Membership and Player Standards.
Was the Admin kick and ban from the BF2 server action appropriate and did it follow Admin Standards?
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Dec 9 2005, 12:42 PM
Can't check server from here but I'll be home in an hour or so so I'll check through BF2CC then and if he is still banned will lift the ban in accordance with admin standards unless someone posts here to tell me differently.[post=104545]Quoted post[/post]
Checked via BF2CC and there are currently no bans in existence on the server at all!? Unless I'm reading it wrong but I did a banlist refresh and it comes up clean.
Nice work on the wording by the way - top quality stuff. I would maybe make clearer that it was a ban from the server that was applied and not a ban from dMw as he seemed to be trying to overegg this point (unless I read things wrongly which happens)
A few "from the BF2 server" references have been added.
I will wait for an Armitage response before posting this to Ninja_Freak.
It is then down to Admins to debate whether within the rules as they are a demotion from dMw or an ejection is necessary. A vote may be necessary for further action.
TL.
Nice work Paul. Very professional.
I would, however, like to bring to the fore the way NF reacted to his ban and, in particular, his attack on my integrity. He appears to have taken an 'attack is the best form of defence' stance against his banning and his very public questioning of my impartiality went too far in my opinion. He has shown no remorse or apologised for his actions which he appears to still be in denial over.
I will not comment any further as I now feel it best that I let the admins take this to it's conclusion. I will, of course, accept any ruling arrived at.
Fair point, I'll work something in that isn;t too personal that doesn;t make it too personal.
My intention is to post it to him and to the forums. That ok?
TL.
How about post it to himn and say that it will be posted to the forums in 24 hours. Gives him a shout at a reply if he feels the need - I know he went public first but lets appear above that. I def think it has to go in the forums though.
K, I'll do that BB - I've edited in the apology/defamation bit.
TL.
Nice post Paul.
Covers all of the rules that were put in place to protect both parties but i agree that NF still doesnt seem to have any remorse for the fact he swore or behaved like what he is "A loud mouthed over oppinionated prick."
I feel VERY strongly about this and how it's going to turn out. If it were left in my hands he would have been kicked out at his "pt 3". Luckily i don't have that power.
Back in the old days of "dont piss about or your out" it was decided that the rules would be set-up to give both the members and admins a guide..... i think in this case the guide has been truly thrown back in either oldies or the admins faces and the person who has done it is not what any of us would call a true dMw thinking member.
Do these people realise what the likes of TL, Oldie, Blueball etc do on a day to day basis, for free, in there own time to maintain the integrity of what this clan represents?
I hold my hat off to you guys for what you do. But please stick up for what you do by standing up to him.
Damn i take to long to post ;)
yup good work Paul! and a nice post there Smite wish i could post a post like that..
so here goes..............
QuoteBack in the old days of "dont piss about or your out" it was decided that the rules would be set-up to give both the members and admins a guide..... i think in this case the guide has been truly thrown back in either oldies or the admins faces and the person who has done it is not what any of us would call a true dMw thinking member.
Do these people realise what the likes of TL, Oldie, Blueball etc do on a day to day basis, for free, in there own time to maintain the integrity of what this clan represents?
I hold my hat off to you guys for what you do. But please stick up for what you do by standing up to him.
wot he said :withstupid:
Sorry to hit you with this one at the last moment TL but I think there is a third point we need to address. NF also complained that I abused my admin powers by replying to a closed thread. As there is no specific guidance on this I guess we need a consensus. I did it to give the community a more complete picture of what had happened in the evening (given that NF had made everything so public). However, we probably need to draw up some guidance for everybody (admins and moderators. How about:
"If an admin/moderator sees the need to reply to a closed thread he will do so via PMs to parties concerned unless it has been discussed in the admin forum and felt that it is in the best interests of the community, or an individual, that the thread be re-opened or replied to"
As I said, I forgot about this aspect but we'd better address all issues.
I see your point, I didn't mention you by name in the response, but I felt that you were covered by the section on thread closing anyway. In any case, I sent it last night, so sorry :(
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Dec 10 2005, 09:25 AM
I see your point, I didn't mention you by name in the response, but I felt that you were covered by the section on thread closing anyway. In any case, I sent it last night, so sorry :(
TL.
[post=104639]Quoted post[/post]
NP dont worry. I was just trying to cover all the bases. :)
A copy fo the final post. It turned out that whilst I had drafted the repsonse I had not sent it, so I added a bit more.
TL.
QuoteMessage Forwarded From TeaLeaf
Ninja & Oldbloke
Amazingly, I was so tired last night after the week I have had that I awoke this morning remembering typing the below to you both last night, but not remembering whether or not it was actually ever sent. So, with apologies if this is the second copy, here is my formal response to Ninja's complaint.
As Ninja made the matter public and brought into question the behaviour of two Admins I intend to post the below to the complaint thread on the public forums in 24 hours. If you have any specific comment or feedback please make sure I have it before then.
As you will see, on a technicality the complaint against Oldbloke was supported. However I believe that the far more serious matter is the disgraceful way in which Ninja insisted on continuing to engage in and fan a public flame war. This element of the saga I am extremely disheartened by and do not *ever* want to see happen again in this way.
Ninja, I believe with hindsight you will realise that you over-stepped the mark and then went totally overboard in your public allegations. It would go a long way to repairing some of the damage done if you were to apologise to the two Admins you mentioned in your posts. Whether you do this in public or via PM I will leave to you to decide.
The Admins have been reminded of procedure and are now updating the rules to suit the current community strucutre. This is long overdue. The Admins are also now considering whether or not Ninja's very public outburst requires any further action. In this respect the Admins will contact Ninja within 7 days.
I trust that you find my below comments through and an honest and independent appraisal of the circumstances surrounding Ninja's complaint.
TL.
cc Ninja_Freak, Oldbloke and posted to the Admins forum.
***************************
***************************
****COMPLAINT RESPONSE****
***************************
***************************
On 5th December at 10.29pm I received a complaint from Ninja_Freak about Oldbloke, alledging buse of his authority as an admin on the BF2 server. I have reviewed the following information in reaching my conclusion:
• Correspondence to me from Ninja_Freak
• Information posted in the Admin Forums
• Correspondence from BlueBall
• Correspondence from Armitage (as requested by Ninja_Freak)
• Information in three threads posted in the public BF2 section of the dMw forums
*****************************************************
The events are as follows:
4/12 22:02 Oldbloke posted to the Admin section details of a kick and ban from the BF2 server applied to Ninja_Freak Other comments added another Admin at 22:19.
4/12 23:21 Ninja_Freak made an initial post to the forums asking why he had been kicked from the BF2 server.
4/12 23:53 Initial forum thread closed by Oldbloke.
5/12 22:17 Second thread posted by Ninja_Freak.
5/12 23:22 Second thread closed by Oldbloke.
5/12 23:47 Third thread posted by Ninja_Freak.
6/12 00:07 Third thread closed by Oldbloke.
6/12 13:53 Ninja_Freak requested removal of BlueBall’s additional posts (using his Admin powers) to the then closed threads.
*******************************************************
It is clear from the above that after the initial incident on the BF2 server on 4/12 a lot happened when Ninja read Oldbloke’s response on 5/12. In less than 2 hours on 5/12 two new threads were opened, two were closed and I received the formal complaint.
Areas considered:
Potential abuse of Admins powers by Oldbloke
Action by Ninja_Freak
Leading up to the ban:
Ninja_Freak has stated that whilst playing BF2 and he typed swear words into general chat and received an automated Server warning for swearing. He has confirmed his response as "I will not stop swearing you cun$†(using the $ and not the T) but stated that the response was meant to be a joke.
Separate Admin reports have confirmed that Ninja was also swearing over voice comms that same evening.
The Ban:
Oldbloke issued the kick and ban from the BF2 server in response to the typed "I will not stop swearing you cun$†comment.
Findings:
Did Ninja_Freak’s behaviour on the from the BF2 server warrant Admin action?
QuoteOriginally posted by Membership Standards"+-->QUOTE(Membership Standards")
Language & Behaviour
Members should maintain a professional level of conduct at all times. Please keep your language and behaviour both in the forums and on the servers at that same level. [/b]
QuoteOriginally posted by Player Standards+-->QUOTE(Player Standards)
4. Language
All players should hold a professional level of conduct at all time. Please keep your language in the forums and on the server at a professional and mature level. Play as though you are an example for other players and set a good one. New players will often follow examples set by veteran players, good OR bad. [/b]
We all tolerate a degree of variance in 'language' from time to time, but an Admin had already been upset by the degree of swearing exhibited early in the evening to the point of intending to send a PM to Ninja_Freak to ask for some moderation of the language used. This was superceded by reading Oldbloke’s post to the Admins and the Admin concerned added their comments to the Admin thread. I would suggest that whilst frustration with the language was already raised by voice comms comments, the ante was upped by use of the 'c' word. This is offensive to many and was the straw that broke the camel's back.
• Yes, Ninja_Freak’s reported swearing via voice comms and typed response warranted Admin action. Reference: Membership and Player Standards.
Was the Admin kick and ban from the BF2 server action appropriate and did it follow Admin Standards?
I am delaying posting this a bit as Ninja has still not even read the PM I sent to him.
TL.
He read the message at 13:58hrs today. He's currently using the PM side of the forum, so I'm kind of wondering if I'm about to get a pasting :blush:
TL.
:D
I feel that Ninja's below response is as close to humble pie as we are likely to get at this stage. He has seen the point we made and we have avoided destroying him (which we so easily could have done).
We now need to decide what action is any to take. I will start a separate thread on the matter.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ninja_Freak+-->QUOTE(Ninja_Freak)
Message Forwarded From Ninja_Freak
An interesting follow up.
TL.
QuoteMessage Forwarded From Ninja_Freak
QuoteQuoteSorry TL did you say that you were going to post the response below publicly? Was it going in the BF2 thread or somewhere else?
I was going to wait for that thread to appear and respond to that if permitted / deemed necessary.
NF
Hi Ninja
No, I was waiting for a response to my PM; I noted that it was read at about 2pm today, so was waiting for you to come back to me to comment, so I haven't posted anything yet as I wanted to wait for your reply.
I can post a variety of different versions for public consumption and that was one of the issues I wanted your opinion on. Because it has been made so public I need to post something to confirm to members that it has been dealt with and summarising the outcome. I can either post the whole thing or a one liner saying it's all sorted now (and all versions in between).
I am happy to work with you on this aspect if you like or you can leave it to me. Whatever we agree to post, I hope that it does not turn into a public slanging match again, the aim is to close the matter, not fuel the dying flames.
Btw, just FYI I don't know if Armitage was meant to say anything but he said he knew nothing about it when he repleid to my questions.
The other reason I wanted to hear from you was to find out how you felt about my response to the complaint. I know you're not going to be all 'singing and dancing' about it, but I wanted to know if you felt I gave it a fair crack of the whip. I feel I've done my best to retain an independent stance on this, but it is always interesting to hear other's perspective.
Let me know what your thoughts are on the above.
Regards
TL.[/b]
OH.. This is the PM I should respond to.. :roflmao: :roflmao:
Am I completely satisfied, yes.. Admittedly I was being a bit of a prick but I appreciate it being noted that the rules were not followed to the letter.
I honestly felt relieved when you got involved and felt that you were impartial from the word go.
In addition I agree that the rules do need to be adapted to BF2 as I still maintain that the only warning I received was from the server. I don't necessarily agree that the BF2 warning is the same as a CZ TK kick but none the less I will not argue with your judegement and take it as a collective final decision.
I think that your comments were impartial and that you viewed both sides of the arguement for the best part. The only thing that I would have liked to seen verified was if OB was aware of BB's comments / feelings at the time when he chose to ban me. I personally don't think he was.
I support your discision and that of the community.
NF
[/b]
QuoteI think that your comments were impartial and that you viewed both sides of the arguement for the best part. The only thing that I would have liked to seen verified was if OB was aware of BB's comments / feelings at the time when he chose to ban me. I personally don't think he was.
NF[post=104897]Quoted post[/post]
I struggle to see how OB knowing about his earlier misdemeanor would have helped things. If anything it's my guess that OB would have looked even less favourably on NF had he known just how bad his language had been! As far as I know, OB was not aware of NF verbally swearing until I replied to OBs post stating that NF was banned 17 minutes after OB posted in the admin forum.
I don't see a problem with NF knowing this if he feels he needs to.
I don't see any need to take it further at the moment - we won;t gain anything by it and he clearly needs some time to cool off - I think we shoudl give him just that.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Dec 12 2005, 04:49 PM
I don't see any need to take it further at the moment - we won;t gain anything by it and he clearly needs some time to cool off - I think we shoudl give him just that.
TL.
[post=104903]Quoted post[/post]
I wasn't meaning take it further. What i was trying to say (rather unclearly) is we should inform NF that OB did NOT know before he banned him. My post was at least 17 mins after the ban. I just thought it might clear up NFs question as he seemed keen to know but if you want to leave it where it is then thats OK too :)