Fair sides and team balancing tonight guys?
Tonights game was pretty farcical on the map with the woodyard. Many of my squad including Target, Norm, Paddy and myself included where fed up of being continually bombed and rocketed from the skies. Surely it didn't escape your teams notice that we had no air support at all the whole game except for some sad attempts by myself to relieve the pressure on my squad which usually ended up with me flying into a mountain?
At one point we counted 3 heli's and 1 plane on your side out of 6 players!
You always had at least 1 plane and two helis up. This makes for a very one sided, dull and frustrating game, when you have few opposition infantry to shoot at and no chance of fighting against an unnopposed air force.
I even messaged twice if you could spare us a pilot as you had the numerical advantage also, but that fell on deaf ears.
Its the first time I and others have left the server because they are frustrated by the oppositions play. :ranting:
Sorry to hear that Dewey. I don't like to hear of anybody leaving one of our servers because of the actions of others. However, I guess it does happen and the only solace I can offer is that I wouold hope it happens much less frequently here than anywhere else.
Maybe some of the peeps who were on tonight can comment, it's possiuble it was a case of not realising the problem, I find it far harder in BF2 to realise when the other team are hurting. In CS I find it ewasy to know that things need balancing.
Comments guys?
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Dec 19 2005, 10:37 PM
Sorry to hear that Dewey. I don't like to hear of anybody leaving one of our servers because of the actions of others. However, I guess it does happen and the only solace I can offer is that I wouold hope it happens much less frequently here than anywhere else.
Maybe some of the peeps who were on tonight can comment, it's possiuble it was a case of not realising the problem, I find it far harder in BF2 to realise when the other team are hurting. In CS I find it ewasy to know that things need balancing.
Comments guys?
[post=106060]Quoted post[/post]
Sorry for the rant - and yes BB your right, it rarely happens on the dMw servers. I'm sure they where just unaware. However after over 60 minutes of continual aerial bombardment frustration set in on my team.
We spoke about team balancing last week and I think its just as important to ensure that there is an equal split of pilots on each side. I guess we where just unlucky tonight and ended up with no pilots on our side and 3 or 4 on the other side.
My squad where thinking of sounding an air raid siren, hiding in a bunker and singing roll out the barrel ala spirit of the blitz such was the onslaught.
Need to get it sorted please, I'd be interested in other peoples comments on this especially the squad I played with and against so we can avoid a repeat of tonights performance. Bearing in mind we also had a pubbie who was on our squad and seemed keen, we don't want to put new people off.
nb* I even tried a pacifist approach, walked up on a road outside the power plant where ranger had his APC and turned my back on him in protest ..... he shot me :(
QuoteOriginally posted by Dewey@Dec 19 2005, 10:43 PM
Bearing in mind we also had a pubbie who was on our squad and seemed keen, we don't want to put new people off.
Extremely important point!
Quotenb* I even tried a pacifist approach, walked up on a road outside the power plant where ranger had his APC and turned my back on him in protest ..... he shot me :([post=106063]Quoted post[/post]
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Dec 19 2005, 10:54 PM
Extremely important point!
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
[post=106064]Quoted post[/post]
I can laugh about it now :lmfao:
Sorry Dewey. I would have swapped side if you had asked... Just let me know next time about this imbalance and I will swap.
On another note - I honestly thought that most of the time you were scary in that chopper and that we struggled to keep air superiority. I think we all fought hard for the flags. We might have pushed you back, but it took a hole hour to do it.
But as I said, sorry, just let me know next time.
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Dec 19 2005, 10:59 PM
Sorry Dewey. I would have swapped side if you had asked... Just let me know next time about this imbalance and I will swap.
On another note - I honestly thought that most of the time you were scary in that chopper and that we struggled to keep air superiority. I think we all fought hard for the flags. We might have pushed you back, but it took a hole hour to do it.
But as I said, sorry, just let me know next time.
[post=106066]Quoted post[/post]
Delanvital, no apology needed, I guess my frustration had just built up and I'd had enough. I did message twice, but as as we know, its easy to miss messages in Bf2 as theres so many especially difficult if your being shot at or piloting a vehicle.
Perhaps a pilots roster would be a good idea? :)
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Dec 19 2005, 10:59 PM
On another note - I honestly thought that most of the time you were scary in that chopper and that we struggled to keep air superiority. I think we all fought hard for the flags. We might have pushed you back, but it took a hole hour to do it.
[post=106066]Quoted post[/post]
Your right m8, I am scarey in a heli.. scarey to my passengers :D
From our side it looked like a pretty even match.
There was a constant backwards and forwards of capturing bases, I hold my hand up to flying in a plane, but I only killed about 6 people all the time I was up and realised I was better on the ground. I died about the same amount of times as I killed.
Never saw the messages, the first I saw was your message when you left the server.
The battles were intense and because we were fighting over two flags for the majority of the game there was no obvious balancing issues that we could see.
There was only surprise when you left the server and we all wondered what was happening.
Didn't any of you think to send one of your guys over to our team and tell us your issues so we could have sent a pilot over as a swap? :huh:
I don't know about anyone else - but I only rarely notice imballances because you don't tend to check the teams screen a lot while playing...
So it's only usually when someone types up 'ballance teams' that I check!
:)
I think we all just have to shout LOUDLY 'BALLANCE TEAMS' as soon as you notice your team is short...
I've always found that just about everyone is happy to jump sides as soon as this happens! (Myself included!).
tbh I was on your side Dewey, and although I knew it was a bit unbalanced and they had air superiority (I called for 1 of our team to get airborne) I don't think that it spoiled the game...
in fact, it could be argued that it was a realistic fight...1 side gets the upper hand in the air, and the other side has to do what we did, adapt 8)
I thought we did extremely well in the face of advercity :D
It's much more dificult to keep an eye on team balancing in BF2...in cs it is noticed and acted upon much more quickly...I don't know about you, but when I die my 15 seconds spawn time is taken up by fetching/opening beer, mumbling directions from beyond the grave or trying to sort out what class/where to spawn. :P I v. rarely check the sides...
It's just 1 of those things...
I really enjoyed my BF2 on dMw tonight....almost to 1.00 am!! ....that's a record :narnar:
Got to agree with Dewey,felt like I was just waiting to spawn for most of the time I was there,no fun. :nope: But as mentioned its alot more difficult to rectify than it is in cs/cz.Never mind,karland made up for it. :dribble:
QuoteOriginally posted by Liberator@Dec 19 2005, 11:11 PM
... From our side it looked like a pretty even match.
[post=106073]Quoted post[/post]
Indeed. In fact for most of the time I felt we were on the back foot, particularly when we were struggling to capture the Woodyard without losing the island at the same time.
I must admit I only saw one message which was along the lines of 'Give us one of your pilots'. At the time I didn't equate this to a plea for team balancing. Sorry.
Well first of all I'd like to apologise to my squad last night - esp as SL I should have stayed but I felt tired and after some 60 mins of bombing my spirit of the blitz had withered and I was to frustrated to continue. If anyones played alongside me they know I love a good hard scrap, difficult or not, but it stopped being fun for me.
Sorry Blunt I don't agree, I don't mind losing the advantage as that implies you can win it back. However they didn't gain the upper hand, they had it at the start and throughout the game and by an overwhelming margin, they had no compeition in the sky and where free to rocket and bomb as they pleased.
I can cope with a few air to air, but 4 vs 0 isn't competitive its a slaughter and it frustrates people. Hats of too you and the rest of the squad though for for perservering.
While we did indeed do a good job of holding them off, it felt like we had extremely little chance of actually winning. This was borne out by the fact that we couldn't even hold onto any of the bases for any period and inevitably succumbed.
We couldn't bring up tanks/APC's as they'd get bombed/rocketed en route, which made it extremely difficult to hold onto a base - which is why we kept losing them. And as we know its far quicker to cap flags and move people around in helis/planes.
However, I'm still surprised that no-one on the opposition side thought "this is too easy, I don't have any opposition in the sky, no fighters trying to take me out etc?"
FWIW I really enjoyed the previous game :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Blunt@Dec 20 2005, 01:14 AM
tbh I was on your side Dewey, and although I knew it was a bit unbalanced and they had air superiority (I called for 1 of our team to get airborne) I don't think that it spoiled the game...
in fact, it could be argued that it was a realistic fight...1 side gets the upper hand in the air, and the other side has to do what we did, adapt 8)
I thought we did extremely well in the face of advercity :D
It's much more dificult to keep an eye on team balancing in BF2...in cs it is noticed and acted upon much more quickly...I don't know about you, but when I die my 15 seconds spawn time is taken up by fetching/opening beer, mumbling directions from beyond the grave or trying to sort out what class/where to spawn. :P I v. rarely check the sides...
It's just 1 of those things...
I really enjoyed my BF2 on dMw tonight....almost to 1.00 am!! ....that's a record :narnar:
[post=106081]Quoted post[/post]
QuoteOriginally posted by Dewey@Dec 20 2005, 09:09 AM
However, I'm still surprised that no-one on the opposition side thought "this is too easy, I don't have any opposition in the sky, no fighters trying to take me out etc?"[post=106102]Quoted post[/post]
This is why I asked for comments in my earlier post. As you can see from lib's reply they didn't feel that (in fact their perception was that it was a hard fought balanced map). Everyone will perceive things differently so i guess we all need to remember to use "BALANCE TEAMS PLEASE" in caps to make it more noticeable if you think that things are unbalanced.
We have been playing CS for years and pretty much have it covered, we're new to BF2 and it will be some time yet before everything runs as smoothly as we would like. Incidents like this though are very useful as this is how we learn about what we need to adapt in our approach to BF2 to maximise the enjoyment.
I guess what is important to remember is that nobody in dMw enjoys when it is too easy. Just look through the old posts to see how many times people say "great match last night, we were losing all the way and with a final rally managed to push you back and win match" (or words to that effect). As we become more proficient at BF2 and learn more about the game situations like this should stop happening (fingers crossed).
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Dec 20 2005, 07:03 AM
Indeed. In fact for most of the time I felt we were on the back foot, particularly when we were struggling to capture the Woodyard without losing the island at the same time.
[post=106092]Quoted post[/post]
I'm not sure if I was around for this map, or whether it was before I joined, but from my point of view every map that I played on seemed hard fought (I was briefly on on Karkand, and on for two maps before that). In fact I noticed at one point that our side seemed to be 2 players down, when we were getting pushed back fairly fast (I suspect that was the other map though, as we were being harrassed by someone in a chopper at that point, and I forget who it was but i'm reasonably certain it wasn't Dewey).
Well I felt it was really badly balanced from airpower. Didnt you guys think gosh were all in the air - I am sure you even took our aircraft. Wasnt it just a bit difficult not flying into each other at times? :dummy:
Favourite quotes:
I suggested that we all went away to hide, someone said they had tried that, but got bombed.
Me: Dewey lookout there is a chopper above you. Dewey: Of course there is!
Suggestions:
Can we voluntarily limit the number of aircraft proportionate to the number of players? Say no more than 20%?
Only aircraft squad fly?
Pilots have to apologise after each kill?
The last game was great, but what a slog. How many points were in it at the end. I was mediccing like a lunatic trying to keep our points up.
I think we lost it in the end because we advanced to the train. they had the high ground for sniping and quicker access to the tank. Perhaps if we had held back at the suburbs when we had a slight point advantage we would have got it. What do you think team?
Another thing.
There was a guy lonewolfing on karkand (quite effectively as it happens). Have we got the join a squad or kick thing switched off now?
QuoteOriginally posted by big-paddy@Dec 20 2005, 10:46 AM
Well I felt it was really badly balanced from airpower. Didnt you guys think gosh were all in the air - I am sure you even took our aircraft. Wasnt it just a bit difficult not flying into each other at times? :dummy:
[post=106123]Quoted post[/post]
I didn't take to the air last night (well, once just before a server restart, and then I flew into the ground :blush:). To be honest I prefer ground-based combat all round, but I would like to be able to fly at least reasonably. I can do things like hover (thought it takes me an age to slow the chopper down to a halt, and for some reason ina plane if i fly, then switch to hover at full reverse, it just sinks slowly to the ground...), but I don't seem to manage to do stuff like see people on the ground for bombing runs without flying into the floor, so I tend to just avoid flying ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by big-paddy@Dec 20 2005, 10:57 AM
Another thing.
There was a guy lonewolfing on karkand (quite effectively as it happens). Have we got the join a squad or kick thing switched off now?
[post=106127]Quoted post[/post]
not yet
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Dec 20 2005, 08:03 AM
Indeed. In fact for most of the time I felt we were on the back foot, particularly when we were struggling to capture the Woodyard without losing the island at the same time.
[post=106092]Quoted post[/post]
Yeah that part in particular. We tried what, 3-4 times? Each time we got down to the Woodyard we lost the Island or close to. Or got wiped out, while trying to move in on the Woodyard. Damn TOW... I think that was a good game, at that point. Great fighting back and forth.
And each time their APC moved in on us at Island Farmhouse we were on trouble. Especially when the bridge was no longer blown. I remember Lib saying "It is alright, I blew the bridge" or something and seconds later we here the "bridge repaired" comment :D
QuoteOriginally posted by delanvital@Dec 20 2005, 11:20 AM
And each time their APC moved in on us at Island Farmhouse we were on trouble. Especially when the bridge was no longer blown. I remember Lib saying "It is alright, I blew the bridge" or something and seconds later we here the "bridge repaired" comment :D
[post=106139]Quoted post[/post]
Me:- "Watch it Oldie, I've blown the bridge"
OB:- "Theres enough of a ramp for me to jump it"
Me:- "err, I don't think there is"
OB:- "Watch me"
Vrooom, splash, boom!
OB:- "Nope, you're right, there isn't!"
:eyebrow:
(He did survive though)
Well we've discussed last nights game and the problem some of the squad members had with the number of planes and helo's.
I know you pilots are probably wondering what all the fuss was about and I don't want to take away your fun. I wondered if the community could come to a compromise?
Ranger, Paddy and I where chatting about it at lunch at some length.
Having spoken to Ranger about last night, he says he was unaware of his teams air superiority. Paddy and I where a bit gob smacked at this, but if Ranger tells me he didn't notice, I believe him. So any sensible suggestions would be appreciated.
To put this into context, this isn't the first time this topic has been raised, as a quick search on the forum will show, its a hot topic. See a few examples below:
Rangers
When did BF2 become a flight sim! More aircraft moans! (http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/index.php?act=ST&f=124&t=11738)
****
QUOTE(Armitage @ Nov 8 2005, 11:24 PM)
May be we should leave small maps on for a bit without AAS and see how it goes. I'm no around until Friday now, but I would like to see if it works with few more people and tanks and APC.
May be one of the server rules should be when its below 12 people on the server we just use jeeps.
*
Yep, I am 100% behind that - I do not see the need for armour or planes when it's less than a 6 v 6 ( - as you say, 12 people).
So, heres a few quick ideas we came up with:
- the community could agree on a percentage of team members being able to fly
- teams could allocate pilots between the two teams at game start to balance things out, much the same way we currently do with numbers - only needed on maps that have jets/heli's
- mod the game so it could give say 1 helo or plane to each squad
Anyone else have any suggestions or thoughts?
maybe nominated pilots are a good idea, and then the whole community would know who should or shouldnt be in an aircraft and abuse any dissenters when they see them go past..... upside down..... on fire....!! and have pilot or something in your tag then just a quick scan of who is playing will show how many pilots are on at once
we're seperated into a,b & c now, why not have a pilots league, and those in the highest class have priority over who flies, and if theyre not on, then the bravo pilot flies, and so on
or is that just a bit TOO organised??
QuoteOriginally posted by Boris@Dec 20 2005, 04:24 PM
... or is that just a bit TOO organised??
[post=106217]Quoted post[/post]
Probably. The problem with all these ideas is that it makes the admin's job a nightmare when the server is public.
When we have enough regulars on the server then we can have it passworded so that only those who know and play by the dMw guidelines have access. That's how we got people to play TCS and, considering how complicated the TCS guidelines were to some people, it worked very well.
What we need to do is produce a set of simple guidelines that encapsulate the teamwork and fairplay dMw ethos without them being too 'heavy'. This takes time and effort on behalf of the admins and the community and I propose to make a start on this in the New Year.
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Dec 20 2005, 07:08 PM
Probably. The problem with all these ideas is that it makes the admin's job a nightmare when the server is public.
When we have enough regulars on the server then we can have it passworded so that only those who know and play by the dMw guidelines have access. That's how we got people to play TCS and, considering how complicated the TCS guidelines were to some people, it worked very well.
What we need to do is produce a set of simple guidelines that encapsulate the teamwork and fairplay dMw ethos without them being too 'heavy'. This takes time and effort on behalf of the admins and the community and I propose to make a start on this in the New Year.
[post=106247]Quoted post[/post]
Sounds good OB, I look forward to them :)
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Dec 20 2005, 07:08 PM
I propose to make a start on this in the New Year.
[post=106247]Quoted post[/post]
Good luck to you. I think you are right - a key issue is that they are simple to understand.
On this particular issue I think we have raised awareness already. During game play fairplay is well considered. I think that here we have a case of a basic imbalance not being immediately obvious to the participants. ranger pointed out that he had no idea of how many aircraft were up. I believe him, but from the ground it was bleeding obvious. A suggestion has been made that when dissatisfaction at too many aircraft occurs a CAPS message should be sent.
I say lets try this. If one team is being totally dominated aerially because of player imballance then say so. Lets see if it works. if not then lets design a new plan. Just remeber everyone to watch for CAPS messages.
What do you think Dewey? Worth trying?
i feel (as in rangers post) that there is nothing wrong with flying but you have to know when enough is enough and when its time to join the rest of the squad.
i do feel there is something fundermentally wrong with ppl spending a whole round bombing the s*it out of ppl
i sometimes spend the round in the attack helo but i would ask the sl where he wants the chopper or react to say an apc attacking the same flag we are, not free lance flying
as in the game described in rangers post, lib and i only flew to counteract the constant flying of other pll, but on more than 1 occasion ejected to join in the fun
point of view ended
i love this game :biggrin:
QuoteOriginally posted by sulky_uk@Dec 21 2005, 12:37 AM
i feel (as in rangers post) that there is nothing wrong with flying but you have to know when enough is enough and when its time to join the rest of the squad.
i do feel there is something fundermentally wrong with ppl spending a whole round bombing the s*it out of ppl
i love this game :biggrin:
[post=106296]Quoted post[/post]
I agree, but with the exception of a fullish server 8) then you can both try to get air superiority...
the original complaint was about a 4v4 or similar, and unless you've both got pilots, it's a pain....I agree....
but...no matter what the oppo is driving, I'll adapt and try to kill you (knife if poss)
I refuse to be bowed by a Brylcreem boy.....I'm Infantry, and I'll take you on whatever you've got :ph34r:
I really do think it's worth the punishment, as often you can steal a march on the enemy by doing something sneaky or clever...sometimes it works, sometimes not...
but...
if you get pissy and leave, you'll miss the next map....which, in this case was THE BEST KARKAND EVER!!!!!!
:whistle:
sorry you had to miss it
QuoteOriginally posted by Blunt@Dec 21 2005, 01:09 AM
but...
if you get pissy and leave, you'll miss the next map....which, in this case was THE BEST KARKAND EVER!!!!!!
:whistle:
sorry you had to miss it
[post=106297]Quoted post[/post]
:(
Personally using the vehicles is half the fun of bf2 for me, the more you limit what I'm allowed to do the more it seems like I might aswell go & play CZ (A game I know & love & am pretty good at)
I can see both sides of the arguement here, but the more it gets toward telling people what they can & can't do in game the less enjoyable I can see it becoming.
If the sides arn't ballenced then shout up & keep going untill someone notices, I'd rather play a fair game that goes right to the wire, than win a game within 10 minutes due to having numerical superiority or a team stacked with the best players.
I'm thinking this is a hurricane in a glass of water.... sorry, don't mean to be patronizing, but should we make complicated rules out of one incident???
How about we all try to play fair? If 9 out of 10 games are OK, I don't really see the problem.
Now, a problem would be that the rules are too complicated or made out so that playing the game is no fun because all the regulations.
I think that the rules no bunny-jumping/doplhin-diving, no spawncamping at the home base and nok intentional teamkilling just about sums it up. If you toss in the "play fair", "balance teams" and "have fun", most of us would do OK.
:withstupid:
...and if there's a prob post in caps so we know. we will just have to remember to assume that the caps don't mean you are shouting ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Dec 21 2005, 12:08 PM
:withstupid:
...and if there's a prob post in caps so we know. we will just have to remember to assume that the caps don't mean you are shouting ;)
[post=106324]Quoted post[/post]
:withstupid:
Thats what I meant.