Iam sure you have all read or heard about the latest "snatch from home, take away and molest" reports on the news.
Now me being a father of 2 children this really hits hard, maybe more so than peeps with no kids.
A 6 year old gets took from her bath room...taken away the raped and god knows what and left naked on the street....then a 3 year old gets enticed from her hallway on her way to bed by someone she knew, into a car then to a "halfway house" again raped and god knows what by 3 TANGO ex cons who apparently live in the halfway house (because they deserve another chance <_< ).
The police only found her by chance by following a car which didnt have its lights on, then it crashed and the girl was shot through the windscreen and landed away from the car......
Now iam all in favour of fair trial and punishment :eyebrow: BUT.....
If this offends anyone I dont really give a toss But please dont delete this...
The so called men who did this dont deserve a trial they should be castrated (with NO anasthetic), then put in a room with the parents of the child for a few hours, then shot up the TANGO with a shot gun ( they will bleed to death in around 3 hours ) meanwhile be tortured in anyway shape or form until they die a slow painfull death..
Now believe me thats justice althought it probably wont heal the mental scars the 2 girls will have for the rest of their lives.
Oh and let me add if (god forbid) it were my kids I would make it my life to make sure the men who did it would live another year,...Any means possible if it meant me having to commit crime to get near them in jail I WOULD.
Now if any one replies to this with a smart comment..You are a TANGO...and if any one finds this petty or "unfair to the criminal frat"( I.E social worker comments) then you are no longer a friend of mine...
Thats all i have to say :(
Neither petty or unfair IMO, not a father but uncle to 1 very cute (most of the time) 6 yr old niece , woe betide anyone who even looks at her in the wrong way :angry:
i am of a fair disposition and as a father to 3 children i can see what your getting at, and god knows what you suggested as punishment i agree with you, but what youll find is that ppl wil think that you are a bit ott with this post, i am in the same boat as you as a father but restraint is required, if you feel stongly about these feelings then please tell him (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page821.asp) as he is our elected leader
The chances of this happening r a lot more then when you and i were kids and that is what makes it harder, this wouldnt have happened when we were kids.
I do agree with what you have said but there must be a petition or something online that you can sign up for.
your not alone in your worries :wink:
QuoteOriginally posted by sulky_uk@Jan 6 2006, 12:04 AM
.......please tell him (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page821.asp) as he is our elected leader..........
......... there must be a petition or something online that you can sign up for.
[post=108247]Quoted post[/post]
Don't tell me, you still have faith in the democratic process? :roflmao:
VV, you sound like a bleeding heart liberal when you stand next to me. :angry:
Unfortunately, short of vigilanteism, there's sod all you can do. Our society has gone down the tubes and everything from dropping chewing gum on upwards is not anyone's fault. NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE ANY MORE.
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman@Jan 6 2006, 12:38 AM
Don't tell me, you still have faith in the democratic process? :roflmao: [post=108251]Quoted post[/post]
yeah im in the military and hes me boss! :icon8:
i get built up into a frenzy..
i have a half sister who is nearly 2
id happily kill for her. :) That make me as bad as them? i dont care.
it makes me nearly go crazy hearing about these people. They arnt humans.
Agreed VV.
Agreed Doorman this is a TANGO'D up country
I hope in prision they get some justice from an inmate hung like a bear.
What is it like 3000 pound a week or somthing per inmate?
What i dont understand is theres so many people who feel like us. Why dont laws change!
:ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting:
VV, you sound like a bleeding heart liberal when you stand next to me. mad.gif
iam lost there but hey my heart went out to the parents and i thought it was worthy posting about.......
YEP.....
I WOULD make it my lifes work if some, no good, down beat, low life did sometihing to my Mitch... he would have a very slow painful death, that would pale into insignificance to anything witnessed in previous wars .......
MY lifes work IS my kids !!!
:ranting:
Just like the jamie Bulger case, the perps will do their time in isolation protected from other inmates under the Human Rights Charter, they'll do their time and be having paid their debt to Society will be free of the crime....unlike the parents and more specifically the children.......aren't Civilised societies great!! :ranting:
If someone would do that to my nephew, I'd hunt him down and will keep him locked away on a location no one could ever find and make him pay in ways he wants to die by himself.
Human rights my *rse then.
i had a similar discussion with the mrs over xmas and new year about the guy executed in Thailand for smuggling drugs - he admitted it - they hung him - do they have a drugs problem in Thailand?? NO
if they carried out VVs suggestion would anyone do it again - NO
I've missed some of the finer details in the news, but if they go to an adult prison they will get their dues.
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Jan 6 2006, 12:21 PM
I've missed some of the finer details in the news, but if they go to an adult prison they will get their dues.
[post=108303]Quoted post[/post]
Indeed. *Everyone* hates child abusers, because even prison bound criminals often have children of their own. Child abusers (seem to me to) often have have to be kept separate for their own protection. Same for child killers, who I guess are often the same people.
QuoteOriginally posted by Carr0t@Jan 6 2006, 01:35 PM
Indeed. *Everyone* hates child abusers, because even prison bound criminals often have children of their own. Child abusers (seem to me to) often have have to be kept separate for their own protection. Same for child killers, who I guess are often the same people.
[post=108309]Quoted post[/post]
An ain't it just a shame that the wardens feel the same as everyone else, so the segregation isn't worth the paper it's written on.
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Jan 6 2006, 01:21 PM
I've missed some of the finer details in the news, but if they go to an adult prison they will get their dues.
[post=108303]Quoted post[/post]
I thought that some of the molesters were protected whilst in jail for their own protection.
Hopefully that's incorrect.
QuoteOriginally posted by Thulsa Doom@Jan 6 2006, 01:45 PM
I thought that some of the molesters were protected whilst in jail for their own protection.
Hopefully that's incorrect.
[post=108312]Quoted post[/post]
Duh, just read the same thing in Carrot's response. :blush:
It gets worse (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4599524.stm) :angry2:
12... *weeks* old... I honestly don't know what to say, I can't seem to get my head round it, it's just too... extreme. 12 *years* old was something my brain could just about grasp and deal with (even though the idea repulsed me), but 12 *weeks* is just... unreal...
Community Service for the win?!! :g: :tumbleweed: :taz:
Musn't forget the perpetrator's Human Rights now must we!! :ph34r: :whistle:
F****** ***** ***** Dlawd;lawdjawd;awd;aw
Me + cell + him + couple of days.
They should just be strung up and left to rot alive, after years of torture.
On another note.
How do u think these peoples minds work exactly ? How sick and curropt can one be to commit such F**K** up offences.
The article confuses me. Apparently the 40 year old man 'corrupted' the 19 year old girl (his grilfriend). That kind of age gap would worry me in the first place. Not that it's dodgy, it's just quite large. And yet, although they are making out like she is also partially a victim of him, she is the one who gets charged with 4 counts of rape and 5 indecent assaults, whereas he only gets 1 rape chage and 4 indecent assaults. And then he gets life and she gets 5 years (I hope to god life in this instance really does mean life, and she should get life too, but I digress). Did they get the names the wrong way round when listing the charges, or what?
Not being a father doesn't exclude you from wanting to put a world of misery upon people like these. When you love someone dearly, you want to protect them. I would personally devote the rest of my life to hunt down and seriously wreck these people in any way I could think of, and believe me I would be very imaginative, if something similar would happen to my girlfriend, and I would happily serve the time for it afterwards.
We have had a lot of serious cases of rape here in Denmark over the last few years, and it is getting worse every time. Just the other day I saw in a newspaper headline, that a mother and her 5 year old daughter was tied up and raped in their own home while having to watch the other getting raped. A year ago, some guy attacked a woman one sunday morning at 5 am, raped her, dragged her along, raped her again, dragged her further, and raped her once more. Just a week after that, a 20-something old girl was snatched from the street (one of the busiest in Copenhagen) by a passing van, taken to an appartment and raped by 5 men and then left somewhere on the street. One month after that, 3 guys in a BMW snatched a girl from the street in high daylight at the city hall square in Copenhagen. How can THAT happen?!? That is only the single most busy place you can find in DK.
What the F*** is happening to the world?!? :ranting:
My girlfriend is afraid to walk home from the trainstation at 10 pm, because she was once followed by a group of 6-7 men. She's a runner so she shook them off, but ever since she's asking me to come pick her up. And I'm not one to say no to that...
I swear to you, if something similar happens to my girlfriend I'll snap completely...
Better stop talking now. Blood beginning to boil... :blush:
It doesnt help giving them jobs in schools now does it Miss KELLY :ranting:
QuoteOriginally posted by mono_dna@Jan 11 2006, 04:27 PM
Not being a father doesn't exclude you from wanting to put a world of misery upon people like these. When you love someone dearly, you want to protect them. I would personally devote the rest of my life to hunt down and seriously wreck these people in any way I could think of, and believe me I would be very imaginative, if something similar would happen to my girlfriend, and I would happily serve the time for it afterwards.
We have had a lot of serious cases of rape here in Denmark over the last few years, and it is getting worse every time. Just the other day I saw in a newspaper headline, that a mother and her 5 year old daughter was tied up and raped in their own home while having to watch the other getting raped. A year ago, some guy attacked a woman one sunday morning at 5 am, raped her, dragged her along, raped her again, dragged her further, and raped her once more. Just a week after that, a 20-something old girl was snatched from the street (one of the busiest in Copenhagen) by a passing van, taken to an appartment and raped by 5 men and then left somewhere on the street. One month after that, 3 guys in a BMW snatched a girl from the street in high daylight at the city hall square in Copenhagen. How can THAT happen?!? That is only the single most busy place you can find in DK.
What the F*** is happening to the world?!? :ranting:
My girlfriend is afraid to walk home from the trainstation at 10 pm, because she was once followed by a group of 6-7 men. She's a runner so she shook them off, but ever since she's asking me to come pick her up. And I'm not one to say no to that...
I swear to you, if something similar happens to my girlfriend I'll snap completely...
Better stop talking now. Blood beginning to boil... :blush:
[post=108875]Quoted post[/post]
I don't know if it is the media that has a higher focus on such news now or not, but it is getting worse for sure - that is, more planned and brutal. The worst case imho is where 5 guys did the bmw-trick and abducted a girl in a van and drove around the city for 3 hours and raped her.
I am no racist, but i find it strange that a large majority of cases with group rape was done by people with 'other ethnic background' - no matter what approach to this is chosen by the government, one has to be chosen now. This is getting worse.
Denmark really could do better. A few days ago I read in an article that a convicted paedofile (spelled like that in English?) was allowed to adopt. Didn't read the conclusion to that - mono?
No, I didn't read the article... What I did read about today though is even more sick with a twist. I don't know if you guys can handle more of this stuff, but here goes...
A 10 year old girl being let out to men. By her own father. In their own house. It seems a group of 8 turkish men has regularly travelled to this house in a minibus, bringing pizza and beer for the father, and taking turns having their way with the girl while her father watched and... pleased... himself while drinking the afore mentioned beer.
Up untill now 11 men in total are being charged in one way or another and the police is confident that there are more out there...
Just read about it today... I guess you can read about this every day. It's frightening.
I agree with Delan, that it seems that these group rapings are mostly 'people with other ethnic background'. Of course there are ethnic danes that are rapists too, but the character of the crime seems different. It's more like some horny perverted twisted TANGO that suddenly takes it out on an innocent girl, whereas this group thing seems motivated by a desire to humiliate the victim.
We do have a lot of trouble with violent 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants that refuses to be integrated into our society, and some of these openly admit that they consider danish girls to be nothing more than sluts and whores to be used as they see fit. I seriously believe that these gang rapings are a result of that...
I am sure this is influenced by the different culture's clothing. People that move from a muslim culture to Denmark go from not even seeing the hair of women to see women dressing as provocative they can get away with without getting a cold.
I am not saying either way is right or wrong, but simply that this difference must have an influence imho.
Just wanting to eloborate on something I said earlier.
What happens in 'nick' to those that are protected is....
said person is in solitary all day bar an hour for exercise alone. When in their cell a friendly screw introduces the local hard case into the cell to administer a sound shoeing.
Shoer leaves, guard returns, prisoner is moved to a new block for safety. This is repeated in the new block ad nauseum.
Add to that the lovely combo of boiling water and sugar and you have yourself a happy life. Ain't that a shame.
erm. allegedly.
As much as I wish that were the case, sadly it isnt. My sis works in the prison service and the code of practice does explicitly forbid any contact between the members of the wing which houses the paedophiles and normal criminals. It is nigh on impossible to actually get a normal prisoner into the wing that houses the paedophiles. While there have been freak cases similar to the one benny describes,, in all of those either the screw lost their job and the hard nut was relocated while the paedophile remained in his cell. Or the incident happened due to a "housing error" with the paedophile being put in the wrong wing.
QuoteOriginally posted by A Twig@Jan 13 2006, 03:23 PM
As much as I wish that were the case, sadly it isnt. My sis works in the prison service and the code of practice does explicitly forbid any contact between the members of the wing which houses the paedophiles and normal criminals. It is nigh on impossible to actually get a normal prisoner into the wing that houses the paedophiles. While there have been freak cases similar to the one benny describes,, in all of those either the screw lost their job and the hard nut was relocated while the paedophile remained in his cell. Or the incident happened due to a "housing error" with the paedophile being put in the wrong wing.
[post=109046]Quoted post[/post]
That be interesting, the case I'd heard was from Belmarsh, from an inmate I know quite well, not sure on whether it was a paed or not, but it certainly sounded like he was telling me the truth.
Still we are all paying for this so just hang em high.... :angry:
QuoteOriginally posted by Vincentvega@Jan 13 2006, 09:44 PM
Still we are all paying for this so just hang em high.... :angry:
[post=109122]Quoted post[/post]
NO NO NO...hang em low...with their toes just touching the ground :devil:
QuoteOriginally posted by Benny@Jan 13 2006, 03:06 PM
That be interesting, the case I'd heard was from Belmarsh, from an inmate I know quite well, not sure on whether it was a paed or not, but it certainly sounded like he was telling me the truth.
[post=109055]Quoted post[/post]
Stuff like that between non-paed criminals happens all the time, because its just "crims slugging it out of eachother" it doesnt really get the press.
If one of them was a sex offender, it would be being screamed from every rooftop.
Aw, now it's a shame they miss the 'fun'.
Not so long ago people of villages and towns sorted this out locally(I still know that this happens in villages of North Ireland. Any person who threatened the families of the town were dealt with harshly by the local rugby , cricket , soccer clubs(a sort of moral council with the backing of the local bobby) - but now that we have minorities of dubious qulaities and intentions running our collections of towns nationally we have a greater duty to protect our own friends and families against the evil vomit that is allowed to roam freely amongst our society because of the "tree huggers" who think that they will change!!!!!!! excuse me while I vomit some pollitically correct green flavour bile into the nearest handy toilet(probably some pervert may cop some in the face --- horray one up for decent folk). But its time to take things into our own hands - I trust no-one with my child absolutely NO-ONE, I watch after her whenever we are out she never leaves my site and if someone tried to do anything I will hurt them severely. I would do that for any ones child , I watch everyone at a gathering ALL the children because by virtue of being a father/mother we have a responsibility for all young innocent children. I agree with you wholeheartedly my friend and i would kill to revenge any child that is violated in anyway by people who should have been ostricised and killed out of society for what they have done or shown any intentions to do.
Bring back the hangings - make a strong example to these scum that if they even attempt this kind of activity they are DEAD.
Rad
There are two types of people who sexually abuse children, paedophiles and sexual sadists. Sexual sadists are rapists by another name. Some rapists rape young women, some rape elderly women, some rape men and some rape children. They also often murder their victim as well. Those rapist/murderers who's victims are children are NOT paedophiles. They are about power, domination and cruelty. Sometimes their crimes do not even include a sexual element. For them the destruction of another person is the reward and the sexual release. Ian Huntley never touched Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells, other than to kill them. They are sociopaths and serial killers. They are not paedophiles. Since the second world war the number of children murdered by these sadists has remained static at about a dozen. The numbers have never fluctuated up or down by more than two or three in any one year. It would appear, contrary to what we would read in our tabloid papers, that the threat to children from predatory child killers is no greater now than it has been in the past. Clearly what has changed is our perception of the threat. Whether this is due to us being more caring parents than our own were, and being more aware of the dangers that have always existed, or whether it is simply due to the press fuelling paranoia with their sensationalist and factually inaccurate reporting, is really not the issue. If parents live in fear for their children then the world is a less wonderful place. No one, parent or child, should live in fear in anything we claim to call a decent society. Even setting aside the possibly unhealthy and opinionated press coverage of this subject, what do we do to save those dozen children who will fall victim to child murderers in 2006? Simply saying "Only 12 murders
from a population of millions? That's not so bad. Twelve is hardly any at all." is not an acceptable concept. One child being murdered is a horrific statistic. One life lost is unacceptable.
However we kill nearly a thousand children a year by running them over in our cars. These motorist child killers aren't sadists or monsters. They are you an me. They are us too early in the morning, all bleary eyed and not woken up yet. They are us rushing to a meeting we HAVE to be on time for. They are us chatting on a mobile phone (hands free or otherwise). They are us just enjoying the sensation of speed as we whistle along the open road. And for that we kill a thousand innocent little lives. And we condemn many many more to a life crippled and broken but not dead. Thousands of children in pain and suffering. Where is the press for these poor souls? When do the papers step up and speak for those children? When do their headlines scream across the breakfast table to us. Of course motorists don't speed through our streets, chatting on their phones, looking down at their maps and generally not driving as they should, with the intention of killing children. These deaths are accidents not premeditated murder. The two can't even begin to be compared. Still though, a death is a death. A child's life is a child's life and it's needless destruction should be utterly unacceptable to anyone who claims to live in a civilised society. What press coverage do we give to suggesting we drive more sensibly? Claims that drivers don't kill on purpose doesn't bring a child back or ease the shocking pain a parent must endure for the rest of their lives. How far would a comment go along the lines of...."well your child died by accident so you can't feel the same pain as a parent who's child was murdered. It's not really the same is it."? Not very far at all I would suggest.
So should we now change our perceptions of the murder of children? Do we, the press and our government have a proportional approach to child death by murder, road traffic accident, accidents in the home and accidents out in the world? Do our papers give even handed weight to the news of a tragic death of a child regardless of whether they were killed by a sexual monster, a motorist or a careless parent? Is there an argument that says it's OK for us to hate child killers with a passion because we are not like them. But for us to call for the disembowelment of a motorists who ran a child over is too close to home for us. We drive cars, we probably have driven them too fast in areas where children walk and play. If we claim a driver who kills a child is a selfish, wicked person, who cares more about their own silly business meeting that they do the life of a child, then what does that say about us. If I drive fast to an appointment am I a wicked evil monster who just got lucky and didn't kill a child that day? Who wants to read about car drivers being the single biggest killer of under twenty one year olds in our country. Who want to consider that the greatest threat to children's lives is not a dark monstrous 'Jack the Ripper' like fiend, but our next door neighbour, our family our friends......us!
What is it finally, that fires such well meant and genuine passion amongst us about the horrific crime of the abuse and murder of children but seemingly leaves us cold to the greater threat to our children of road traffic or domestic accident?
A paedophile means child lover (paedo=child, phile=lover). But what exactly does that mean? What do they do and what motivates them to do what they do? If we understand who they are, abhorrent though that may be, maybe we can better understand how to protect children from them.
We are arguably a product of two things, genetics and our social upbringing. In the past we believed 'who we were' was based on breeding. A pauper could never become a prince and a prince never become a pauper. We remember the more modern take on that idea with the movie Trading Places. Modern society however, believes we are a product of that society and not fixed at birth. Therefore a pauper could indeed become a prince and Eddie Murphy's low life charcter become a Wall Street big shot. However, we do accept that our sexual orientation is something we are probably born with. Heterosexuals and homosexuals are not made by their upbringing, they are born. In years gone by our society sadly treated homosexuals appallingly. Some thought they had a disease that could be cured. Others thought it was simply a depravity that could be punished out of a person by a spell in prison. We now know our sexual orientation is part of who we are. Like the colour of our eyes or the size of our ears, it is a defining characteristic that is simply a part of what makes us, us. We can't condemn a person because of their sexual preferences any more than we can the colour of their hair.
So to the paedophile. Who is he (they are almost always men)? A Paedophile, as opposed to a child rapist/murderer is a person who has a love of children that goes far beyond the acceptable norm. He sees them as a sexual object. It is, for him, a natural progression of their 'love' of children. We all meet people in life. And if these people are sexually compatible with us friendship often leads to relationship. Some people we meet may be married etc. and this will affect our interaction with them. But basically we accept that two people meet, they become friends, their friendship deepens, it turns to love and then to a physical relationship. We expect that two people who are good friends and sexually compatible will in the end have a relationship. The film When Harry Met Sally, with Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal, was all about that very subject. And in the end they did finally fall in love and live happily ever after.
So how does this relate to paedophiles? Well they too have a sexual orientation that they did not choose for themselves. At some point in their lives it probably became gradually clear to them that they had a powerful sexual attraction towards children. They didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, I fancy being a child molester". They didn't decide to become a monster and flip a coin to see if they would prey on women, children or some other arbitrary section of society. Whether they were born with a sexual predisposition towards children or whether it was a product of their own abuse, the fact remains the same. They were paedophiles by design not choice. And if we accept that, then how does that affect how we view them. If someone we knew very well stepped up and said they were a paedophile and that they needed help to stop them ever abusing a child, what would our reaction be? Compassion? Kindness? Acknowledgement of their bravery by coming forward and seeking help? Or loathing and hatred? Could we ever treat this man as someone with a condition that needed help and counselling? In fact does our absolute hatred and loathing for paedophiles, whether they have ever abused a child or not, actually prevent them from ever coming forward seeking help? We have no help to offer them only a long cold future behind bars.
Following this concept forwards we must also consider the paedophile who does abuse children. Abhorrent though it may be to consider, paedophiles do not hate children and they do not believe what they do is abuse at all. They cite rare tribal societies who regularly have sexual contact with their children, seemingly with no ill effects. They mention the numerous historical references to child brides. They were a common feature of American and European society until fairly recently. But seemingly none of the children we traumatised by their young marriages. They would go as far as to suggest that all the psychological damage caused to children is a result of our societies reaction to child abuse rather than the abuse itself, which they see as a natural and decent thing. This argument that they do not hurt children by their actions is one however that even they struggle with. Many paedophiles end up committing suicide. Could this be due to the internal torment they feel by knowing that their abuse is a monstrous act but being unable to control their sexual desires. Or is it a desire to no longer live in a world where they are called a monster and hounded like an animal?
We could possibly accept that a paedophile who never committed a crime should be treated better and maybe they should even be helped, once they had been removed from society and into a secure facility. Away from children, we could offer them what counselling and treatment we had. But could we ever support a charity that helped these men? Would we accept tax pounds being spent on facilities to help treat and "cure" their problems or the research needed to understand their 'condition'?
But what about the paedophile who simply couldn't or didn't want to seek help. Remember most paedophiles do not believe they cause damage to children. They believe it is us that damages the child by our reaction to what for them is a wonderful and uplifting relationship between two people, regardless that one is a child. To tell a person that they can never have a physical relationship with people they wish to, would be a tough demand to make. Imagine if you were told you could never have sex with a man or a woman again. And imagine you were given no reasonable argument (in your view) as to why that was. It would be a hard thing to do for the rest of your life. To simply turn off your sexual desire is probably impossible for most of us. Some people can do it for religious reasons, but I doubt most of us could simply wake up one day and just stop. Without wishing to draw any parallels between paedophilia and any other sexual orientation, we spend centuries persecuting homosexuals in our society. We executed them, tortured them, locked them up and socially ostracised them. But we never 'cured' anyone of their sexual preferences.
So what do we end up with. Do we confuse murderous rapists with paedophiles? Do we hate people because of a sexual characteristic they have no control over? Do we expect them to abstain from sex for their entire lives when we know they fundamentally do not believe that what they do is wrong? How, as a caring society, do we deal with abusers of children? Few would argue that we should identify them and remove them from society. It is accepted that the protection of children is the highest priority, and that we cannot afford ourselves the luxury of putting children in harms way in order to be more compassionate to their abusers. So do we remain a society that continues to hate child abusers and offer them absolutely nothing other than a life behind bars? We may believe that our attitude to paedophiles affects only their lives. And if we hold their lives in contempt then why even worry about what they feel or how we might treat them. We hate them and so let them rot. But while we may believe that we owe these people not one shred of compassion or consideration, there is another group who deserve our absolute care. We have a moral obligation to set aside any and all emotions we may feel, and to consider their welfare above that of anyone else, especially our own. We need to think about the child.
As with many discussions about child abuse the conversation often sadly centres on the abuser and not the child. Whether through genuine concern for childrens safety or morbid curiosity we seem to be far more interested in the abuser and what happens to them than the plight of the abused. A controversial report suggested that some of the damage caused to the victims of abuse was not as a result of the abuse itself. Three additional factors played a significant part in the psychological damage caused to children.
The first was that because we treat abusers so harshly they go to great lengths to ensure their victim does not give them away. Threats of terrible consequences are made if anyone should ever find out about the abuse. Threats of the child going to hell for ever are a common consequence of being found out. While the paedophile professes love they use fear to control the child. And so when the truth is discovered many children become traumatised. They expect the terrible consequences of the discovery to fall upon them. One of the first jobs for those who care for victims is to undo these lies and to convince the child no punishment awaits them.
Second is the reaction of those close to the child. While fear is used to keep a child quiet, this is not always the method employed by their abuser. A special secret that only the abuser and victim know, is used. This may be hard to accept but often children do not object or fear their abuse. Dressed up as big fun game it can result in gifts and kind words. The victim can often believe what they are doing is a good thing. These are innocents who have no idea about the nature of the atrocity that they are a victim of. When the truth is out the child becomes aware that what they were a party to was actually a monstrous abuse. Coming to terms with the fact that they enjoyed what now seems to be a terrible evil, can have serious effects on a child. It requires great skill by the councillors to help the child understand what has happened to them and that their reactions were not bad or wrong. Sadly parents who quite understandably find it impossible to hide their reaction to the abuse of their child, struggle disparately to hide their emotions. Sadly children who all are masters of reading their parents mood often cannot help but pick up on the trauma suffered by their parents. This can lead to trauma in the child.
Finally there is the long term view. As a child, who may have been successfully counselled and whose parents have managed the herculean task of suppressing their emotional torment, grows it becomes aware of societies attitudes to paedophilia. They recall their own abuse in a new light. As they grow to adulthood they interact with society, read newspapers, watch news programs etc. They begin to associate their own abuse with these shock horror headlines. What effects our attitudes have on young adults who were victims of abuse is not known. That tragically many victims go on to abuse others indicated that there must be some negative reaction. So how do we deal with the nature of news report and public discussions about abuse. Do we demand that they are toned down for the sake of victims or do we believe in a truly free press and the right to express our abhorrence of these crimes? Ultimately what effect does our reaction to child abuse have on the victims? How much damage is caused by our society and how much by the abuser?
All the above is stuff that I believe is being considered by those who work at the cutting edge of child protection. There is a lot of controversial stuff there and I am sure some of it will offend many. You may even take a lower view of me for suggesting some of the ideas written above. Frankly though I do not care. I know people who work within the field of child protection. So maybe I have a very little insight into the problem, and maybe not. Maybe I am just clutching at straws in an attempt to understand how I can can live in a society where at least a few of the seeming normal decent people I meet are actually child abusers. The bus driver, the man who sells me my daily paper, the chap who I sit opposite at work. How do I live in a world where these seemingly ordinary folk can potentially be abusers and can be people who, whether they believe it or not, cause misery on a scale it is hard to imagine.
But beyond all this, beyond the foaming rants plastered across our daily paper, past the mobs who roamed around the suburbs of Portsmouth a few years ago beating up paediatricians in the name of child protection, past arguments about how we deal with paedophiles, whether we execute them, lock them up or cure them, is for me the only real question we should be asking. How do we protect children? It kills me inside when I read another story about a child being abused or killed. It kills me and it kills you and it kills our society. We are reminded that we can't protect the most important people in our world. Those who can't protect themselves. As a 'civil libertarian' I believe in all kinds of human rights. Most of them are not 'god given', they are rights we choose to have, that we choose to fight for and sometimes die for. We decide we want them and we try to create a world where we can have them. There is for me only one right that is an absolute. Without it we have no society worth fighting for, nothing worth believing in and maybe nothing worth even living for. In fact it isn't even a right at all. It's an obligation. It's the price we pay to deserve a society at all. It is the protection of our children. That is the one time in our lives where everyone else should be bent towards protecting it. Whether we have children or not we have a fundamental obligation to look out for them, look after them and cherish them. It is a basic biological principle that we protect the future of our species, it is a defining factor in judging the worth of our society, our selves and our very existence. We only have one basic measure of the merit of the world we have created. And that is how we look after those who cannot look after themselves. We may need help when we are old, when we are ill or when we are down on our luck and maybe we won't. But we all need help when we are a child. Our survival depends on it. And so as adults we don't have the right to reject them.
So for me if I have to learn to understand a paedophile, learn to help him and learn to gain a sense of proportion, all in order to protect the children in this world then I will. Whatever it takes to better understand the threat and to understand how to deal with it, is something I believe we should accept. Outrage, horror, indignation, hatred, revenge are all perfectly acceptable emotions which I certainly feel when I learn of the abuse of children. But revenge and satisfaction that an abuser will suffer some ghastly punishment doesn't help the victim. It's a luxury I don't think we can afford ourselves. It takes our eye off the main issue, it diverts us away from the real area we should be considering. How do we understand why people abuse, how do we stop them abusing but most importantly how do we look children in the eye and say "Every emotion I feel, every though I have and every action I make is there to protect you from harm." I don't believe we can indulge ourselves in catheretic attacks on paedophiles till we have ensured we can protect children from them. What I think about paedophiles isn't really important. Whether I want to see them suffer for their crimes isn't the point. Because I would let everyone of them go and buy them a nice big house in the country, if by doing so it meant not a single child would ever be abused again.
So finally I would rather be judged by how much I care for the welfare of children rather than by how much I hate paedophiles.
Thank you and goodnight
And that Smilodon, is why I miss you round these parts. Great post and certainly has made me think.
a very well written and well thought out piece. Certainly does make you think. A pity "The Press" typically sits so far away from the fence it is supposed to be rooted to.
Wow Smilo I don't know how long it took you to write that but it took me ages to read it!
Can't argue with any of it although I can honestly say I had never thought of most of it before!
Nice to see you back on form.
could have wrote in chapters m8.... :whistle:
yeah nice one smilo.....
1 thing tho if we do find the part of the brain that tells us to go and rape a kid...what then, do we spend loads of £ treating or cutting parts of brain away or allow stem cell/ dna manipulation to stamp all evil out once and for all?
Finally some considered thought Smilo.
This thread has been annoying me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to make a response. Whay is it that anger is easier for some folk than thinking?
QuoteOriginally posted by big-paddy@Jan 24 2006, 09:04 AM
This thread has been annoying me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to make a response. Whay is it that anger is easier for some folk than thinking?
[post=110223]Quoted post[/post]
Dunno m8. I felt the same :(
QuoteOriginally posted by big-paddy@Jan 24 2006, 09:04 AM
Finally some considered thought Smilo.
This thread has been annoying me for some time, but I haven't had the energy to make a response. Whay is it that anger is easier for some folk than thinking?
[post=110223]Quoted post[/post]
Yeah lets all have a group hug for the poor perps/pervs shall we ????
:angry:
QuoteOriginally posted by MAD_ness@Jan 24 2006, 10:57 AM
Yeah lets all have a group hug for the poor perps/pervs shall we ????
:angry:
[post=110233]Quoted post[/post]
I don't think that is what was meant. The initial response is anger and the desire for revenge. OK we can kill one in the most horrible way imaginable, but will that stop the next one or the one after that?
Yes punish them but think about what is wrong with our society that allows people like this to appear.
I don't have any answers only anger and questions.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sn00ks@Jan 24 2006, 11:05 AM
I don't think that is what was meant. The initial response is anger and the desire for revenge. OK we can kill one in the most horrible way imaginable, but will that stop the next one or the one after that?
Yes punish them but think about what is wrong with our society that allows people like this to appear.
I don't have any answers only anger and questions.
[post=110234]Quoted post[/post]
:withstupid:
It's all part of our big bad world and will unlikely ever go away.
Just like war, religious hatred, animal cruelty, jealousy (I jealous of the way some folk are great at CS and I'm not :( ), wife/husband beating etc.
It will never really stop, unfortunately, and there isn't really a simple answer :(
QuoteOriginally posted by Thulsa Doom@Jan 24 2006, 11:18 AM
It's all part of our big bad world and will unlikely ever go away.
Just like war, religious hatred, animal cruelty, jealousy (I jealous of the way some folk are great at CS and I'm not :( ), wife/husband beating etc.
It will never really stop, unfortunately, and there isn't really a simple answer :(
[post=110236]Quoted post[/post]
There is one answer, you're not going to like, but there is one.
Get rid of the human race. The world would be a much nicer place without us. Just getting rid of 60% would make a great difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sn00ks@Jan 24 2006, 01:15 PM
There is one answer, you're not going to like, but there is one.[post=110249]Quoted post[/post]
Who says I don't like the idea? ;)
So far we've all thought about what we'd do if it happened to our kids and what we feel when it happens to others.
Can you imagine what your thoughts would be if your own offspring were the
perpetrator.
Also found this link :(
http://www.crescentlife.com/psychissues/a_...rator_talks.htm (http://www.crescentlife.com/psychissues/a__perpetrator_talks.htm)
I should add that I found the link in google whilst searching for the correct spelling of perpetrator.