http://www.glop.org/starforce/ (http://www.glop.org/starforce/)
food for thought
This has been the subject of a lot of anger on the GTR and to a lesser extent, the GTL forums. Less on the GTL forums because people have exhausted the subject on GTR. Believe me, Simbin don't give a toss. Poachers turned gamekeepers the lot of 'em.
I wouldn't mind but the bloody game is so cheap now who'd bother pirating it?
Rightyho, thats odd, now that I thinking about it, my CD/DVD drive has been getting slower and slower, recording music into iTunes. Starforce has been removed from my system, assuming that their utility did the job, and didn't just hide it more...
QuoteOriginally posted by A Twig@Mar 6 2006, 08:03 PM
Rightyho, thats odd, now that I thinking about it, my CD/DVD drive has been getting slower and slower, recording music into iTunes. Starforce has been removed from my system, assuming that their utility did the job, and didn't just hide it more...
[post=115143]Quoted post[/post]
think you can make starforce appear in the drivers section of "my system". Does anyone know if it's possible to remove starforce after playing the game, but then when you next put the disk in let it reinstall to play, take it off afterwards etc? Reading the list of games I had X2 the threat I think, best go check my system...
I don't know. I have Splinter Cell Chaos Theory on my PC but haven't tried playing it since the removal of the starforce stuff.
I just had a peek and I have versions 1.0 and v6 of starforce (at least on my pc) :(
The removal is a cinch. all the encessary links are on the page you put the link for. It does actually make a difference. My CD/DVD drive is noticeably faster and less error prone now.
can you explain what the problem is?
GTR...GTL...?
how will the fix effect you?
I'm asking cos I'm thinking about getting a driving game soon :huh: :unsure:
QuoteOriginally posted by Blunt@Mar 7 2006, 01:45 AM
can you explain what the problem is?
GTR...GTL...?
how will the fix effect you?
I'm asking cos I'm thinking about getting a driving game soon :huh: :unsure:
[post=115263]Quoted post[/post]
When it comes down to it, it's not a problem. You buy the game, put the cd in and starforce checks to verify it's authenticity. I'm wondering if the objections to it are based on petulance that a game can't be hacked rather than any real fears that dvd drive can be fubared.
The fix they refer to is getting rid of Starforce when you no longer need it to play a game.
On the other hand, I believe Quake4 had the same setup and in deference to their customers, patched it out. As far as Simbin (GTR/GTL makers) is concerned, it's their arrogance that gets up peoples noses. At the end of the day, you want the game , you take the doodoo.
As far as the dvd thang goes, I will be convinced by evidence other than hearsay.
if you notice any strange system issues (particularly lower cd/dvd speeds or more cd/dvd errors) after Starforce is on your system then it's the likely cause. Starforce will use up some (albeit minimal) system resources even if you're not playing the game it came with. I do not recall seeing a clear and obvious license that explained it during the install process. The installed driver also apparently allows "level 0 code to run under level 3 user privileges" or something which sounds like it's potentially opening up a sort of hole in your system security where a "hacker" could potentially run very low-level code even with minimal log-on privileges or something.
These sorts of tactics are not winning my trust. If you consider that the "hackers" and pirates do not care that the software is hidden from view as they're actively looking for it, so making it install without any proper warning, remain hidden from my view, making it run constantly instead of just when the game is running, these things do nothing to fight piracy at all. All they do is make it that little bit harder for the average user, and with the potential problems that their protection system can cause when not running the game it's protecting makes it practically malware in every situation other than protecting the game it was installed with ... imho
Bear in mind Starforce came with a game I uninstalled about a year ago and I just discovered multiple versions of starforce installed on my system due to it and GTL. Poorly written software running with administrator privileges on my computer is not a nice thought.
Still, I bought GTL so I will have to continue using it with starforce until the no-cd patch becomes available...
a (not very convenient) fix:
n.b. constantly uninstalling and reinstalling drivers (that probably require a reboot) may not be healthy for your system. I'm going to try it once or twice as I have multiple versions of starforce in my device manager :eyebrow:
QuoteHow to remove all StarForce components from your PC:
from your system.
* Download the StarForce Removal Tool as a ZIP archive.
* Extract and store sfdrvrem.exe anywhere on your hard disk.
* Run sfdrvrem.exe.
If the protected application requires a StarForce driver, this driver will be re-installed as soon as you launch the application again. For further help, please contact the helpdesk of the application publisher.
I know it looks like I'm hopping from foot to foot but I agree with your misgivings. The hell of it is you're pretty much stuck with it. It's all very well boycotting games that use it but who gets hurt most by that? The developers don't give a toss! Shitty world sometimes :(
found this over on futuremark interesting read
13thHour quoted
"There seems to have been a bit of mix up here as to where the information originated from concerning the investigation into Starforce and the problems that occurs from it usage.
I am actually the originator of the data that was copied and posted here. Glop, CGW etc all use quotes of my postings.
Which have been bounced back an forth over the net.
Basically I isolated and replicated a number of issues including.
DMA step down, (Failure to play DVD video, burn disks correctly)
Most current CD/DVD R/RW drives cannot cope for any long period of time in XP's Version of PIO mode. In many cases due the blocking of the conventional IDE streams by Starforce (And other factors) the drives firmware misreads this as being a grossly overburned disk inserted, causing the laser to rapidly be thrown into its mounting. (The speed in an important factor as the failsafe fitted on most drives does not have chance to cut the power before the word gear is damaged, if this is repeated, as will occur with SF on the system it will wear out the worm gear rendering the drive non functional).
Another factor in drive failure is the increased usage, with SF on some occasions carrying out verifications upwards of 100 times a minute, basically with your average gaming sessions you are talking about the life cycle of the drive being reduced by up to 80%.
In a very short period of time the laser will fail. This actually applies to any DRM that carries out such extensive CD/DVD checks.
Code errors in the Device manager ranging from Error 7 to Error 41
I also created some easy to follow workarounds for some of these problems which can be found in the http://www.r-force.org (http://www.r-force.org) forums.
As well as I owning r-force.org I also own http://www.n-gage-help.com (http://www.n-gage-help.com) or as its more commonly known NGH.
I was the one who counter challenged Security Technologies to come to our office in the UK and disprove the Technical information that I was disclosing concerning the problems that Starforce Virtual IDE protection driver cause.
I was the one that Nerva (Starforce Tech support forum roota dmin) spoke with.
Quote:
Hi again!
I'v forwarded your reauest to our programmer, who make whole drivers work.
Could you plz contact him to research the problem closer togehter? (if yes i''ll give you his e-mail)
Right now he has no idea whats going on. After we fined any solution or start to understand the problem cearfuly - we could make some forum post on it.
That is the actual response from him copied and pasted from the PM.
Originally I was kicking his butt over deleting my posts in which I was posting the workarounds for some of the issues that their software caused.
In relation to the rebooting, I was the one hat originally pointed out the conflict caused in the Kernel stack that causes some setups to detect SF and crash the system because of the nature of this Legacy mode Virtual driver.
XP actually generates an error message relating to a Legacy driver on the blue screen before it causes a reboot.
I also isolated the SCSI/SATA issues, including the spreading of SF across multiple partitions and to any network drive with read/write capability. When you get the aforementioned reboot error on a system with a primary SCSI/SATA, in most cases it will become impossible to reboot to safe mode and the reboot will just continue every time you start.
The part that did surprise me given that its only a DRM, if you boot say a Live Linux distro, mount the drives as read write and remove all instance of SF drivers on those drives. Then format the primary partition. You would assume it is gone and you could reinstall XP on the primary partition.
In when you try to install XP, SF will trigger from the MBR, decrypt form elsewhere on the drives partitions and try and reinstall itself into the registry and the legacy drivers again. It then misreads XP's low level access as a system logger and kills the install of the OS.
The only way to get Windows XP back on the system is to clean all the partitions, create new ones and format them. Then install the OS again.
As for the Ring 0 issue, quite simply their is no workaround for this, it is vulnerable to old buffer over flow techniques. (only AMD 64 CPU's have full onboard hardware protection against this)
Quite simply unless you can afford to replace hardware and data that you may lose, do not let Starforce near your system.
If you still wan to take the risk even after all this information, then don't be surprised if in a few months peeps say we told you so when you become one of the many rank and file protesters due to the loss of Hardware/Software loss."
Wow. interesting read.
yipe :blink: thanks for that post...
btw, using the starforce removal thingy works, and it simply asks for permission then reinstalls when you put the GTL disk in the drive. This does require some restarts and I've no real idea if this constant driver installing and uninstalling is actually potentially harming the system. With a bit of luck the SF installs over where it was so you don't end up with fragmented driver files all over.
ick, another ugly piece of DRM overkill
Installed GTL.
Installed Logitech Driving Force Pro.
BSOD on GTL start up.
Unplugged Logitech Driving Force Pro.
Rebooted.
BSOD on GTL start up.
Removed Starforce, Rebooted.
Computer worked fine.
Starforce = Worthless POS :ranting:
Unless someone can link to a safe Starforce hack then the GTL and the wheel may well be binned. I'm not playing a game that silently installs some worthless piece of shit software that is TANGOed up beyond all recognition and causes my previously stable and secure system to BSOD on me.
So much for looking forward to trying GTL. Think I'll go play some WoW now......... W2g Simbin you TANGO-muppets :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting:
TL.
I take it from the underwhelming response that this issue with GTL is still very much a current problem :angry:
TL.
I'm here, I'm here. There is a Starfarce update. I'll be back.
Updated drivers (http://www.star-force.com/protection/users/) This has been a PITA in the past but we've mostly forgotten about it. Hang in there bro'
Better yet, get it from my webbie (http://www.finnglish.co.uk/Stuff/UpdateModule.zip)
Well that didn't work either. It ended up needing a total update to the very latest BIOS and chipset driver for the mobo. Bloody stupid Starforce legacy driver programming. :ranting:
LAN over, Starforce will go.
TL.
Starforce sucks big time...its in the news everywhere lately :angry:
Yeah I know. Frankly, after the uproar about it with GTR, I'm amazed they had the bottle to use it for GTL. If they use it for GTR2 they'll miss out big time I reckon. In the meantime I've learned to get on with it. It's a case of poacher turned gamekeeper as far as Simbin is concerned. Having started as modders, useing other folks work as a springboard for their own.
FWIW my brother got BSoD's when he installed GTL / Logitech momo force. He then updated to GTL 1.1, latest DX and Nvidia drivers and it worked.
After all the hulluballoo of geting it to work in the first place I did my first 5 laps of Brand's Hatch in the very basic Mini before I had to go out. Managed a 1:54, not sure if that's good or bad, but I'll look at the settings and try to figure out what they do. I guess you folks are al doing 1:20s!
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Apr 16 2006, 03:28 PM
After all the hulluballoo of geting it to work in the first place I did my first 5 laps of Brand's Hatch in the very basic Mini before I had to go out. Managed a 1:54, not sure if that's good or bad, but I'll look at the settings and try to figure out what they do. I guess you folks are al doing 1:20s!
TL.
[post=122452]Quoted post[/post]
Depends on if it is the long or short version? If it is the long version I do about 1.51.xx if I do well in the Mini. Usually 1.53-ish.. You seem spot on!
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Apr 16 2006, 02:28 PM
After all the hulluballoo of geting it to work in the first place I did my first 5 laps of Brand's Hatch in the very basic Mini before I had to go out. Managed a 1:54, not sure if that's good or bad, but I'll look at the settings and try to figure out what they do. I guess you folks are al doing 1:20s!
TL.
[post=122452]Quoted post[/post]
On the button I'd say.
there's a starforce removal tool - requires a reboot though. When you try run GTL next time it'll prompt you to reinstall starforce, which also requires a reboot. Not sure just how safe it is to do regularly, but I've managed it once or twice without any noticeable issues...
I've tested it the uninstall and reinstall with noticeable ill effects.
Oh and yes it was the long Brands Hatch circuit! Think it was called GP instead of Indy.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Apr 16 2006, 10:43 PM
I've tested it the uninstall and reinstall with noticeable ill effects.
what sort of ill effects did you notice? :ph34r: other than the general starforce related problems
Strike that, insert a 'no' infront of 'noticeable'.
My bad :blush:
TL.
:) I knew that.
phew :rolleyes:
This looks encouraging. (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6147655.html)
Let's hope that Simbin/10tacle/Blimey or whoever is responsible, take the hint. The links in that article are worth a look as well.
I'll be as encouraged when they release an official patch removing the need for Starforce in GTL.
TL.
They're a thick skinned lot though. :( Apparently the makers of Quake 4 did away with Starforce. I bought the game and patched it first, so I didn't have the problem. But the rising tide of complaint MUST make them listen......won't it? I'm not holding my breath.
use the force ... oh wait you deleted it :D
Guys have any of you read the report about starforce in pc gamer last month?
QuoteOriginally posted by Dewey@Apr 20 2006, 02:31 PM
Guys have any of you read the report about starforce in pc gamer last month?
[post=123116]Quoted post[/post]
go on...
After the problems TL had my copy of GTL sits here unoppened :(
QuoteOriginally posted by smite@Apr 20 2006, 02:56 PM
After the problems TL had my copy of GTL sits here unoppened :(
[post=123119]Quoted post[/post]
most of the problems with starforce are overcome-able with patches and the like. The starforce-removal tool seems to work okay. c'mon! :rolleyes:
It's the forced cockpit view that's really frightening him off. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by suicidal_monkey@Apr 20 2006, 02:37 PM
go on...
[post=123118]Quoted post[/post]
I'll bring it to the lan for you to read and make your own mind up, interesting 2 pages on it, including interview with its maker.
I downloaded the multiplayer demo version of toca 3 and it had starforce included which i thought was pointless as there wasnt a cd with the d/l and if they worried about pirating/copying why make it downloadable??? :wacko:
QuoteOriginally posted by suicidal_monkey@Apr 20 2006, 04:38 PM
most of the problems with starforce are overcome-able with patches and the like. The starforce-removal tool seems to work okay. c'mon! :rolleyes:
[post=123131]Quoted post[/post]
Why should we accept a useless POS with awful legacy drivers that can't cope with a modern motherboard and have to patch and tweak our systems to make *their* POS work? As for the removal tool, yes it is nice it works, but the why are you forced to ask them for it? Why isn't it supplied in advance and why aren't you warned about the forthcoming pain when you install? And why are we forced to use software known as a 'driver wrecker'? Why have several major companies just pulled this POS from their packages and announced its removal from future releases? Guess it's because it's a POS.
I like GTL, I hate Starforce. :ranting: The battle for me is which will win out. :(
TL.
So when my copy of GTL arrives tomorrow, what do I need to do to minimise any SF nastiness? :blink:
OB I didn't bother doing anything about SF, and I don't think many other of the players did either. I installed the game, it works, I don't have any obvious problems so not really worried.
It is part of the game and you need it to play. I suppose if you want to you could un-install and delete SF after every play and then re-install it before each play. But that seems like a lot of TANGO to go through.
My 2p.
On the down side and I'm not sure if it's related, my DVD was running ssssllllloooowwww last night and I like to jump to conclusions. Will unistall SF tonight and see if it makes a difference..
QuoteOriginally posted by Sn00ks@Apr 26 2006, 09:22 AM
OB I didn't bother doing anything about SF, and I don't think many other of the players did either. I installed the game, it works, I don't have any obvious problems so not really worried.
It is part of the game and you need it to play. I suppose if you want to you could un-install and delete SF after every play and then re-install it before each play. But that seems like a lot of TANGO to go through.
My 2p.
[post=123676]Quoted post[/post]
I'd go along with that 100%. I, like everyone else jumped up and down like an angry chimpanzee when I first encountered it, but I learnt to accept it. Just don't be on Teamspeak when you fire up GTL. Remove your headset first! It, or at least mine, lets out a screech when SF starts.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Apr 22 2006, 04:12 PM
I like GTL, I hate Starforce. :ranting: The battle for me is which will win out. :(
TL.
[post=123340]Quoted post[/post]
And the winner is.......?
I'm with Snooks and Doorman.
I just installed, no problems, and played. I did not even bother to jump up and down... but that might be because I don't know the software's damaging potential :blush:
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman@Apr 26 2006, 08:51 AM
I'd go along with that 100%. I, like everyone else jumped up and down like an angry chimpanzee when I first encountered it, but I learnt to accept it. Just don't be on Teamspeak when you fire up GTL. Remove your headset first! It, or at least mine, lets out a screech when SF starts.
[post=123681]Quoted post[/post]
I get the same thing with my headset and GTL/teamspeak - very unpleasant on the eardrums!
On the "learnt to accept it" front however ... complacancy just means they get away with something more buggy and dangerous next time. SF gives a "level 3 user level 0 privileges" thus disabling part of what security there is in XP. I've no idea realistically how hazardous SF is of course but that doesn't mean we should let them get away with it. Ubisoft (or someone else high-profile in the game publishing world?) recently dropped SF after many complaints and after a SF employee posted links to a cracked version of an unreleased game!
It's the same with a lot of DRM software, going well beyond reasonable measures inconveniencing legitimate users. In this respect Steam is the best option I've come across! No discs required (well, apart from having to have both steam and my hl2 dvd ... grrr) by design. Ut2k4 seems to do just fine without requiring a cd to play.