Defenders have no actuall chance of getting into the raids...[/b]Which is exactly why RG2 will help you. If gives you a raid group into which you will have priority over Soldiers. The whole point of this is to help people progress. We cannot do that with only a single RG.
We could not progress when a large proportion of the raid group was not commited and failed to turn up most raid nights. The difference is not a small one - take Vael as an example, we have killed him twice, both times with almost all of the RG dead at the end of the fight and both times within what was 5 seconds of the attack becoming a total wipe. If we want to progress in BWL then the people who raid need to have the bulk of their Tier 1 sets to survive, experience of the fight and hwo to deal with it and an increasing amount of Tier 2 equipment, which by definition usually means those who turn up regularly for raids. Those who can only turn up every now and then will by definition tend to have less experience and less Tier 1 equipment and will be less used to the fights themselves - imagine turning up to the Razegore fight after never having seen it or only have seen it once or twice a month ago. In OL and MC you can get away with this variability a lot more, but in BWL you simply cannot. RG1 gives the dedicated raiders a chance to progress. RG2 gives the less dedicated raiders a chance to raid in an instance that is a challenge but not impossible ot them, an opportunity to complete their Tier 1 sets (and to start their Tier 2 sets through Ragnaros and Onyxia) and to continue to retain the ability to just 'turn up' as and when you feel like it and be reasonably certain of raiding.
We are a hybrid Guild - we provide raid opportunities at the highest level and at the other end of the scale we provide a social Guild - in this i think we are almost unique. We will never have a perfect solution for people who only wan tot raid 'a little' until all members commit to raid 100% of the time and the number of members we have is a multiple of 40 and we never gain or lose members. As this is simply never going to happen then we have to accept that it will not be perfect.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 8 2006, 08:36 AM
Unfortunately, as you said, this isn't a perfect world and this also is not a perfect solution. It doesn't actually solve the problem, it simply pushes it back from Defenders to Guardians.
[post=115639]Quoted post[/post]
Yes, this is no perfect solution either, and it won't solve the whole problem, but I do think it would be a slight improvement to the system as it is today.
The situation we have now, is that the Defenders have close to zero chance to get a spot in the raid. With the solution I sugges, you enshure that there will be guaranteed Defender spots, and there will be a rotation on who gets the spots.
Concerning the Guardians that will loose their spots to a Defender in this system (3 pr. raid, as I suggested), that might not be a good thing, but we already have the risc of a few Guardians missing out on a raid. As of today we have 48 Guardians, meaning if all of them show up, 8 won't be able to come. I don't think it would be too bad if that number increased to 11 who could possibly be left outside. Here you could also work on some rotation thing, so that not the same Guardians miss their spot more than max once a week to a Defender.
Just throwing out suggestions for you to think about - hope it is of some use :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Threbrilith@Mar 8 2006, 09:04 AM
The situation we have now, is that the Defenders have close to zero chance to get a spot in the raid. With the solution I sugges, you enshure that there will be guaranteed Defender spots, and there will be a rotation on who gets the spots.
We've already thought it through and the higher percentage of WIN WIN comes from the RG2 solution. You cannot conceivably argue that RG2 would not provide you with a better chance to raid than RG1 on its own. You also cannot argue that Defenders will not have a better chance of getting into RG2 than fighting with 8 Guardians and all of the Defenders for 3 raid positions in a sole RG1.
We are trying desparately hard to introduce and manage solutions that work for the majority. We also need a period of time running one system to genuinely assess its effectiveness. The final part of the current system is almost in place, so please just hang fire and wait a bit longer, the officers are putting every effort into fine tuning the system to make it work for as many people as possible. I believe we are on the cusp of making this happen.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by Othbarty@Mar 8 2006, 08:42 AM
As we now have no problem filling a extra 20man raid groupe at the time of BWL or any of the other raids, I would actually go as far as to say that the new system is obsolete... We have had more than 60 ppl wanting to raid every raid day, and more than 20 on the non-official, still making a great advancement in AQ20 on the non-official raid days, and a steady and good progress in BWL too.
Oth, I forgot to reply to this bit.
Give the Officers some time. We have a plan, it does not happen over night, we are working on the plan as fast as we can. Keep the faith and give us some time.
TL.
What?! A plan that doesnt happen over the night? Outrageous ;)
I have all the confidense in that the Officers will come with a solution to the problem, and I hope ppl will stop leaving the guild.. I have seen many leaving becaus their unable to raid.. That sucks... (Sorry language)
Might seem a bit harsh
Told you soo
STUFF THE RAID GROUP 2 WILL YA?
Who wants to be in raid grp 2?
Who wants to join SoG to be in their raid grp 2?
Who wants a temporary short term solution?
Who wants to feel left over?
Not me. take away my access or I`ll be reading this thread for ever
TL wrote a lot of things I won't start commenting in detail.
The only thing I want to add, is that I feel it's very hard to make up my own mind on "which side" to stand on in this situation, because I really think I see the challenges both camps have to face, no matter what the final sollution will be.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 8 2006, 09:06 AM
The final part of the current system is almost in place, so please just hang fire and wait a bit longer, the officers are putting every effort into fine tuning the system to make it work for as many people as possible.
[post=115652]Quoted post[/post]
I hope you don't mind my "nagging", and I don't mean to push you more than neccesary. I do think you officers do your best in trying to work things out for us, and I only want to throw out ideas as they pop into my head. The only thing I appreciate in return, is that the ideas get noted and concidered by the officers (and that we also get some kind of sign/response that you have done so, which TL in this thread has been very good at).
Threb out - for now :)
QuoteAs Adul mentioned a couple of times, the casual raiders are an important part (just as important as the hard-core/full-time raiders are) of the guild, and we can not afford to loose any of them. I don't think that making a RG2 will really help solve the problem - the only thing happening will be that we push the problem in front of us. What will happen the day RG2 reaches the point RG1 are today? Should we just make a RG3 and continue like this forever?
The solution to this is : after we get a RG2, no more ppl!The recruitment had some flaws because there was some times were there was low attendance and we recruited more. Take the priests, for a little time we were _lucky_ if we had 3 priests in MC/BWL/OL now we have what 9? priests that wants to raid and 7 of them being Guardians . So After we get a RG2 up we would have very harsh/strict rules.
But what addy says is very true, who wants to join a RG2? i know there is some ppl , but not alot of people, thats not enough. Its all about self-sacrificing, but then its the Guardian status if i gave up a raidspot, id be breaking the guardian "rules" 2/3 raids needed attended.
But i really think an RG2 is the only answer, we have alot of ppl that are clearly experienced like Lucian, who cant fit the guardian requirements( no offence intended) that know alot and is very experienced.
But 10 months of mc is a little bit harsh, just look at Shadow council, they progressed fairly fast to Majordomo, why? because of Bein was here in SOG and knew every single tactic up to domo.
The reason im willing to put alot of time and effort into making an RG2, is because i dont want losses like addy happen again.
Thanks for your time.
I am sorry to see you go addy :( , you where one of the ppl that was always here and even got me hooked on raiding... :D
Best of luck outside SOG and i am sure ill see you arround. :rolleyes:
QuoteOriginally posted by Neff@Mar 8 2006, 03:40 PM
But i really think an RG2 is the only answer, we have alot of ppl that are clearly experienced like Lucian, who cant fit the guardian requirements( no offence intended) that know alot and is very experienced.
[post=115735]Quoted post[/post]
At first I was very skeptical about this RG2, but now I do as you see it as one of the last solutions to the problem.. I don't really care about loot from BWL at this point as I, to be honest, doesn't have that much from MC yet ;) So I am willing to be in RG2 and theach how to down those noob bosses 8) .. I can't promise I won't try to ninja a spot in BWL from time to time tho :D
But
QuoteHello and Goodbye.
Im sad to see you leave adu :( But I do understand your reasons, and I hope Ill see you from time to time, and kick some horde butt in pvp ;)
bb adu
In reply to addys post, the thing is, if you dont want to raid "hardcore" and only when it suits you, kinda thing, then thats what RG2 is. For those who dont have time to raid every night, its not like saying, hey, get in the retard group, its for the more social raiders, who want to raid, but not on the scale of the hardcore raiders.
why did u quit the guild as ur alt sinap
I`m not hardcore, I didnt say. Work prevents me from being hardcore. But the idea of having guardians was good, untill they made som many guardians that they didnt need to get defenders in even. The rank of Defender is obsolete.
With all my milage in MC, why on earth would I want to go back? Now I see rogues getting my BWL loot and fun without having a base to be there. I do damage for 3 tier 0 rogues at ieg. Vael fight. So when you guys "optimize" your raids, you dont OPTIMIZE them enough. If you want a raid to have progress, you use what you got at the given time the raid invites goes out and the customisation period is in effect. If you are so stuck up in the guardians that that prevents "optimization" of a raid (my fire res and damage + stats over a "new" rogue`s) Then the Guardian classes are just to make things easier for the officers and prevent moaning.
I could have been an officer in sog and do nothing at all, just show up for raids when it suited me, BINGO! free raid spot. I wont do that. I love(d) SoG! SoG was great! Everyone could lend a hand in the SoG raids, and we made it work.
Sog as of now is Bummed out! I wont take no part in taking soul out of SoG. I leave SoG so I dont have to see it when you guys realize that there is only uardians left in SoG.
"it is not far from Capitol wherever to the cliffs of wherever"
I could leave SoG because the ties between it and myself was deterioated.
There is only one Addy and Addy is tred of not getting what is rightfully his. Addy doesnt like to see his fellow SoG comrades that have Zero, nill, null 0% chance of getting in unless ppl leave because of wipes. Addy leaves. (for the cavemen)
Neff's sad (caveman) I've said it a million times,especially when i talked to you yesterday, i'd really like it if you swallowed your pride and joined but sadly this isnt gonna happen, buf if you wanna come back noone has a grudge against you and we'd love to have you back.
yeah, i understand everythin u said, as i said when we were grouped today.
But still,as Neff said, it would be great to see you back, but obviously would understand if your decision remains.
Still gonna be groupin if silithus anyway :P
hi addy
I know exactly how you're feeling.
I've had my break from wow now about a month, and I'm back fulltime. but the officers wont make me a guardian now, because they have gotten new guardian hunters in the guild. I'm not saying that I'm better than they are, but I have better gear, and I would believe more raidingexperience.
and I clearly stated that I wanted a spot when I got back :(
they have a wote going now, I really hope I get a Guardian status.
sorry to hear/see that you've left us:(
The thing with guardian spots was : First come first serve. Dont think the officers would have made you a guardian if you wasnt playing, break or not.
Its 6 per guardian spot, and 7 per priest (special case) and every single place is taken afaik.
Didnt mean to be negative in this post , it just came out that way.
QuoteOriginally posted by Yliana@Mar 12 2006, 05:57 PM
hi addy
I know exactly how you're feeling.
I've had my break from wow now about a month, and I'm back fulltime. but the officers wont make me a guardian now, because they have gotten new guardian hunters in the guild. I'm not saying that I'm better than they are, but I have better gear, and I would believe more raidingexperience.
and I clearly stated that I wanted a spot when I got back :(
they have a wote going now, I really hope I get a Guardian status.
sorry to hear/see that you've left us:(
[post=116675]Quoted post[/post]
Well, you're in same boat as me. The way I'm gonna look at it mate, is that I'm (hopefully) going to be one of the key hunters in RG2. You will too, given the experience and kit you have.
In all seriousness, with a decent turn out of experienced defenders, the only bosses in MC that will give any trouble are Domo and Ragnaros. Its definitely doable!
Maybe Garr if you have unexperienced locks too Lucian.
yes lucian, but the thing is that I dont need anything in MC any longer(a few items maybe)...and I'm not interested in starting with MC all over with a new grp...even tho we'll have great progress.
and I dont think it is fair that some ppl just join the guild, starts with farming MC and doing BWL regulary at once, and ppl that have worked their hands to the bone to get that MC farming status dont get a spot.
would be more fair if we put new members in RG2
QuoteOriginally posted by Yliana@Mar 13 2006, 11:08 AM
would be more fair if we put new members in RG2
[post=116771]Quoted post[/post]
That is a good point! But there would most likely be quite a fuss about it from those "new" (and how do you define "new" as well - member for less than 1 month....?) members that than would be bumped down to RG2 :blink:
It's a delicat hand harde case :huh:
QuoteOriginally posted by Threbrilith@Mar 13 2006, 01:22 PM
It's a delicat hand harde case :huh:
[post=116782]Quoted post[/post]
sure is, but take for example the new hunters, they have gear to do MC mostly..and to go BWL with just a few epics is the same as going MC with a few blues and mostly greens..
putting ppl that dont need things from MC in a MC grp, and ppl that need MC things in a BWL grp is kinda stupid(sure they do MC too, but should work a bit with their epics before going to BWL)
I've worked like so many months to get that MC farming status, and I feel that it is kinda unfair when it comes new ppl and just get that farming status right in their hands without a single hour spent in getting it. and we that have done MC over and over and over again to be allowed to go BWL dont get a spot.
in my point of view BWL is a bonus to us that have worked hard to get epics and raided many months to make progress in MC. to be perfectly honest, I'm sick and tired of MC, and the new hunters can as well get my spot there(if I had a spot)...just as long as I can join the BWL grp that I've worked so hard to get where it is.
this is talking in general, I use hunters as an example because I'm familiar with them.
This started with Adu leaving and seems to have then moved on to other people. So to bring this thread to a close:
The bottom line is that decisions have to be made. The Officers looked at all available options and solutions and and made decisions that they thought would provide the Guild with the best possible outcome. The debate surrounding why the decisions were made will remain private as it was a discussion within the Officer section. Debating it will not change that fact.
The majority of the problems in this thread seems to relate to the lack of positions available in Guardian ranks to those returning, but you need to remember that the Officers only recruited to fill a class need, we don't do it to deliberately annoy people.
I can sympathise to an extent with someone who already has a lot of T1 gear and comes back to WoW to find that their is no space in the Guardian ranks, but the point is that when there were spaces then by definition we had a class need and the Officers recruited in good faith to fill that need. This led some people (now members) to leave previous Guilds to join us for that Guardian rank and it would be dishonourable for us now to bump them to Defender and unfair to Guardians to create an additional Guardian slot to accommodate a 'special' case. The Guild made a commitment to Guardians in return for a commitment to raid - we intend to keep it.
If you take a break from WoW then it is reasonable to expect that a class need may arise, particularly if there are no posts to explain what is going on.
It is also reasonable to expect that the other members and the Guild keep moving forward in your absence.
Expecting to be able to take up an old position and for nothing to have changed is less reasonable.
These are my personal views, my 2 cents, but I hope that they will bring this thread to a conclusion.
TL.
evry one know im not happy how things went with the new chance's
But i have to agree with TL on this. If you had a "break" of wow. The ones that stayed lost a raid member. We had to fill that spot up. Now your back. and your more then welcome. But we cant say well that ather hunter but a old member is back so bugger off. Its a hard desision, i know. And i dont know a good salusion to it. Yust glad im not a officair :blush:
The amazing thing about the stuff you write TL, is that its almost the same as the kind guy who lifts up a brat who's just fallen and scraped his knee and says "its gonna be allright" now dont run so fast next time or you'l be the cause of your knee getting hurt.
That sounded kinda tarded, but the way you explain things to the unhappy people works 9/10's of the times. and hopefully people understands it:)
oh and i dont do this ass-kissing to get me stuff, just seems that way :unsure: