After a couple of discussions recently I thought I'd make a post to see if i'm just falling off my soapbox or if this has happened to others.
Also, as there are rules in place about what set items people can have (4 of tier 1 before you can have tier 2) this becomes more relevant.
Should someone with a tier 2 item be able to take a tier one item of same slot ESPECIALLY if there are people who only have tier 0 of that slot?
a) this reduces the overall raid member effectiveness by keeping someone on bad kit when they could have upgraded.
B) it keeps them one item away from even being allowed to go for the tier 2.
Let us say hypothetically, that Gorion and optical won wrath bracers, and myself and dajo still didn't have might bracers, for example heroism on both.
Even though the uber tank kings have more dkp, should they now be allowed to take the might bracers which are not as good as their current kit, and thus deprive us of a good upgrade?
in numbers: 2 x tier 2 (gori, opti) + 2 x tier 0.5 (me, dajo) = average of 1.25
if they got might bracers, the best set would not change as they would not need to use them, HOWEVER, if we got the might bracers...
2 x tier 2 + 2 x tier 1 = average 1.5
a small increase! you shout?
gib epix! i reply!
if you're gonna stop people getting tier 2 until they have some tier 1, dont let the people who HAVE tier 2 take the tier 1.
purely hypothetical situation of course.
P.S. don't give me the set bonus b0ll0 x, noone would replace the 4 items of tier 2 they have to get the set bonus from full tier 1
I won't give a lengthy thought out reply, because I haven't thought it through yet, but here is an off the cuff reason why I think you *might* be allowed to take T1 when you have T2.
Netherwind Crown (T2) (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=27679)
Arcanist Crown (T1) (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37308)
The Arcanist has +10 FR and so when I decided what to use my costly Libram of Resilience for I chose to put it on not my Netherwind Crown but my Arcanist Crown. Yes I drop some stats, but I get +30 FR from the Arcanist Crown and only +20 FR from the Netherwind. So when I need maximum FR or want to keep +damage or other stats on other items rather than replacing them with +FR gear I pull out the Arcanist.
TL.
a valid example, but still, for a difference of 10fr would you stop someone who had tier 0/0.5 from having the arcanist?
Additionally in this case you already had both, so you got to decide on the best application for kit you already had.
Not quite the same as stopping someone getting a fantastic upgrade in order to get your extra 10FR.
if you had magister and kreuz had netherwind, tell me you wouldn't be peeved if he took the arcanist ;)
P.S. wth is a chocolate balloon?
Actually I had the T1 for 46 hours before I got the T2. I then decided to get the +20 FR on the Arcanist not the Netherwind. The extra 10 FR does make a difference to those of us squishies who operate in the 'sub 250 FR' zone ;)
I'm not saying that it would not benefit someone with a Rare or T0.5 set item, but tbh if Kreuz had more DKP than me and he wanted it then I'd be happy that he took it for a good reason. He put the effort in, so he gets the choice. All he has to do is use his choice wisely. My turn would come and the DKP system ensures this.
There's a good chance that had I had the T2 headpiece first that I might have taken the T1 anyway as I feel the extra 10FR really does make a difference to me. I'll never know for sure though as I got the T1 before the T2 and not the other way around. :rolleyes:
Hindsight's a wonderful thing........ :whistle:
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by Umbra@Apr 4 2006, 12:54 PM
P.S. don't give me the set bonus b0ll0 x, noone would replace the 4 items of tier 2 they have to get the set bonus from full tier 1
[post=120846]Quoted post[/post]
As with all other cases concidering items, loot, rules and so on, it is impossible to make one good rule that goes for all ocations.
What you say about set bonuses being b0ll0x, is not just all true. At the moment I have 6 of the cenarion pieces (missing belt and vestments), and I also have the Stormrage Belt.
Even though I have the SR belt, I will not pass on the Cenarion belt if that should drop and I'm next in line for it. I do not wanna seem greedy, but I would prefer to have the full Cenarion set bonus, than 7 cenarion and 1 SR... And also the belt seems like a bloody rare drop, so it's hard to tell how long it will be till next time it drops. And I also feel that I have earned the right to it.
I gotta agree with Umbra here.. I must admit I got a tendency to be greedy from time to time, but I know that if I already had Wrath helmet I wouldn't take Might Helmet even if I had the needed DKP.. That is if someone needs it.. If noone need the Tier 1 piece I would go for it..
I do know what Threb is on about tho.. He only has 1 tier 2, and he would have more use of a Tier 1 at this point.. Now I wouldn't want to flame anyone personally but Gorion for instance already got 5 tier 2 pieces and prolly wouldn't have as much use of a Tier 1 piece, as on as Umbra or Threb..
I have a semi-solution, Discuss it in your channel before looting! The tier 1/2 part has alot of problems thats need to be solved. an example is Ash passing on the tier 2 head because he doesnt want it as much as Bas/or sunil needed it . And i didnt need nemesis bracers either , thats why i've passed on them.
QuoteOriginally posted by Neff@Apr 4 2006, 06:16 PM
I have a semi-solution, Discuss it in your channel before looting! [post=120911]Quoted post[/post]
haha you dont wanna know....Their actually was alot of bitching about that in our channel. :P
My guess is that a set of Wrath bracers drop before we ewen see the Might ones dropp.
I would like to se them go to somone who needs em if it happens.
Mine are in the bank as they dont have anything other then less of the same stats that Wrath have.Tho having a full sett was nice til I found no practical use for it.
Why somone would want them? My guess ist that after hoping for the sett for so long you just want to finish the sett even tho you got better.
As I got the whole sett I don't know , but would hope I would have passed non upgrade ithems down to the ones that need em . It is not like I'm collecting Valor now, ewen with the upppgrade possebilety.
Rules are something I don't particulary like, hoping we don't have to make to manny of them .
For me its like Ashjen once said I trade Blues for Epix first, This will benefit the guild most i think. So if i havent missread Umbra, I think that if someone has tier 2 he should pass on tier 1 to one that probably has Blues!
But the Dilemma is that ppl can feel that they have earned the right to claim whatever they like because they have put alot of effort in getting their high DKP. I understand that, so its really hard to make a rule for it! What Neff says is great that u should talk in ur channel before whispering,and dont be to greedy next time its the other way around! ;) And u Spare ML alot of trouble sorting who should get what item!
And for last its real nice to see another player be Happy by getting new gear that they really want! :D
I took the might helm a few weeks ago despite having the wrath one, but all the warriors in the raid had wrath and I was the only one to take it :P
Sometimes it is worth taking a lesser item if it will hep you get the set and the set bonus, plus seeing as the resistances are differerent per item you sometimes need to swap and change pieces to get the best effect.
QuoteWhy somone would want them? My guess ist that after hoping for the sett for so long you just want to finish the sett even tho you got better.
surely this is greed rather than need though.
what i'm saying isn't so much that the item is ENTIRELY worse in eVERY aspect to a piece you already have, but that, if for one person it is a mighty upgrade, and for you it's merely a 'complete the set of tier one even though I have 4+ x tier2' or 'I only want it for the 10FR' then it's not exactly a greed.
To quote (ish) Gorion from the last raid 'The fire debuff is nothing when you have around 300+FR' so then the FR argument out of the window (i'm on about 210 unbuffed btw) and every other stat is worse.
Thus, is it really such a guild attitude to take it when there is no aspect that is really needed (is the 8x set bonus a need when you have >4 tier 2?) would he REALLY use them to get this set bonus? to be fair? who would take off the 4+ tier 2 items in order to get this bonus?
Just remember This is just a discussion as I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions and taking them into account (Am I the only one?)
I think the thing we need to remember is that we need an easy rule to apply in practice. We can't spend all night discussing the potential merits of an upgrade to one person over an upgrade to another. If we used the upgrade logic we might also find ourselves arguing that a Tier 2 item should go to those with Rare Blues and not those with Tier 1 epics. We are not at liberty to pick and choose when we apply that logic.
The simple and practical way forward is to do what we do: spend your DKP when it is your turn and if you want the item.
It's down to the individual how they spend their DKP, if we start assessing the relative merits of an upgrade for one person over the upgrade for the other 5 in class then our fastet MC clearance will become 3 days and not 3 hours.
TL.
I agree with TL.
DKP system is simple en clear. those who have the most DKP (Most time/effort spend) get the item. This doesnt go for Tier sets only but for all items in the DKP raids.
I think we are all wise enough to only roll for items we intent to use.
If you want an equil chance at gear then we should have started RG2 with all new players clean DKP lists and experience. instead we get help from RG1 players who learn us the fastest way of getting our loot and if during this raid an item drops that one of the RG1 members needed then i would be happy to pass, im happy to have him/her around to help. Eventually you will get your turn when you have the DKP.
until then im happy to wait and learn :D
Actually I only mentioned it BECAUSE subsequent additional rules were added, the 'you gotta have 4 tier 1 before you can have tier 2' bit. Thus you are already calculating the 'merits' associated etc.
If it was purely DKP as mentioned above then I wouldn't have said anything.
how I see it is that dkp hoarding reduces the transient effectiveness of raid because people are not upgrading kit when they really should be (tier 1), even if there is better kit out there that they want and have a chance at (tier 2).
But, taking kit that's worse than what you have (and thus probably won't use), leads to some people not upgrading, and so: reducing transient effectiveness of the raid.
Yes everyone will get their turn of course, so you're saying everyone will eventually get all the kit they want after soem unknown time, fine, but if this were truly an important statement then the dkp hoarding rule wouldn't exist.
Of course, there are also class merits associated with an item, where something is more likely to go to someone if they will use it more effectively in a raid (see the similarity yet?).
again i'm just looking at opinions, cos i'm bored at work and think too much but here's how i see it.
a) pure dkp - no problem
or
B) if you start looking at effectiveness to raid due to items (dkp hoard rule) - should consider the other item distribution effects on raid effectiveness.
Just seems detrimental to, not only introduce a rule where you can't upgrade to tier 2 'til you have tier 1, but at the same time say nothing about people who have tier 2 from taking tier 1 and preventing the aforementioned people from even getting the tier 1.
P.S. how long a run takes is irrelevant next to 'getting it right'
As an aside,
If I went on an RG2 run now, I could easily take both might bracers and shoulders if they dropped (DKP) , but I'd be so ashamed of myself and rightly so.
Take what you want when you will, and I won't say a word apart from grats :D, you've have worked for it and got the dkp...
QuoteThe simple and practical way forward is to do what we do: spend your DKP when it is your turn and if you want the item.
It's down to the individual how they spend their DKP, if we start assessing the relative merits of an upgrade for one person over the upgrade for the other 5 in class then our fastet MC clearance will become 3 days and not 3 hours.
oh wait! isn't that the argument I used in favour of letting alts raid?
please! is it pure dkp or are there rules? half and half is just rude
Alts is a different issue altogether, the fact that DKP is used in arguments in other areas should not preclude it being involved as part of this discussion - a discussion about 'downgrades' (which is a neatly presumptuous title).
Umbra, you sound upset by this, but this is not the intent. If you want rules they can be issued and enforced, but helpful discussion is more positive. I was trying to add helpful discussion, sorry if it was received in that way.
TL.
I'm not upset :D, I know the title is a little derogatory but I couldn't think of anything that came closer, the tiers are not merely different, with the exception of a stat or 2 (usually magic resistances) the T2 is better than T1. please read this in context rather than an all encompassing statement :)
The alts issue is not so far removed as people want to believe, my statement was let ppl spend the dkp they have earned on what they want if they can use it. Which seems to be what you said, but never mind we shall forget about that argument.
I merely noticed that an aspect of misuse (opinon) was being dealt with and thought to bring to general attention another one.
basically dkp hoard rule = limiting what people can spend their dkp on depending on what kit they already have.
my idea = limiting what people can spend their dkp on depending on what kit they already have.
It would be very nice if people considered what others had and need etc but there seem to be 2 reactions to such cases
1) I'll pass on item x because the aspect I'm after is only a small upgrade and I know there are people to whom this is christmas. (consideration).
2) I'll take item x because I don't currently have it and it has a stat I want. (slightly less consideration).
Now I know we have a number of uber elite tanks, and i respect that, but there are a few cases in BWL for example where ALL warriors get used. For those who remember a couple of wipes at 1% of mob hp. Just think how much difference it might have made if the non prot tanks had the nice big upgrade for that extra armour AND defense AND fire res, even if this was at the expense of say 10 FR from one of the MTs who are around 300FR at the moment. But again, I'm thinking of the raid rather than the individual.
As I said,
I will say grats to whoever gets something, you've earned it.
I will respect those who show consideration and thought, you've earned it.
Its a though matter, but I would say that it shouldn't be a necessity to make more rules.. If people got enough DKP to get an item, ofc they should have the choice of taking it or not, no matter if they have a better item or not.. People should be reasonable enough to consider the fact that someone else might need it more..
But as umbra said, Ill gratz em if the get an item, they've erned it, and I will respect those who show consideration and thought, they've earned it. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Umbra@Apr 5 2006, 01:20 PM
To quote (ish) Gorion from the last raid 'The fire debuff is nothing when you have around 300+FR' so then the FR argument out of the window (i'm on about 210 unbuffed btw) and every other stat is worse.
actually the fr argument aint of the window.. for me to get 300+ fr i use every single bit of fr kit, from di items(even the legplates) to trinkets, rings and amulet and might items, and some i already have the wrath counterparts
now i know this topic is particulary based on the might bracers.. now i know you wont like this, but i passed the might bracers once already(and rexon took them), i dont really intend to pass them again, even if i have the wrath ones.
now before the sh it hits the fan you should know that the best possible tank gear is the mixing of both t1 and t2, why? the bonuses. t2 bonuses suck imo, but the stats and the total armor and def are better, but t1 has some really good bonuses, like the +30 block, and extra rage generation which is better than the full set bonus of wrath, also note that both bracers dont have any +def or parry/block/dodge bonuses so its the ideal item to replace with might (yes youde be loosing some stats, but 30+ block outweights 4 stamina)
now you might see me as a total ar se face after this, but you should remember that ide never take any dps warr item, unless none of those warriors want them. i wanted to take onslaught girdle last time.. but since you wanted it i didnt, i could have taken that blade too but i didnt. items that improve my tanking have a total priority, even if those other items would really help me whilst grinding(although i dont do much of it) and right now, the bracers of might will improve my tanking.
pretty long post, some will get mad, some will agree, but it had to be said, i hope you understand
No madness here G, you made some well-reasoned points.
TL.
The points make sense, Wasn't getting mad like i said, just wanted to hear why anyone would do it.
of course, as the bracers is the only T1 peice you don't have, surely you already have all the set bonuses apart from the, what is it, +threat from sunder?
I'm sure not going to flame anyone, as I said before, you've earned it, it's cool.
Difference between dps kit ofc is that sometimes the dps warrs have to tank, in which case having some tanking kit is nice, but I haven't seen a prot tank expected to do dps (I was between 400 and 600dps in BWL on my ctmod meter). So while you don;t really have as much use for dps gear as you're never expected to do dps, we ARE relatively often used to tank (domo, garr, Vael, Firemaw, BWL mobs).
If you want a couple of uber uber tanks, then great, you're on track. If you want alot of very good tanks (other specs) then you're boned :)
P.S. TL, feel free to change the topic title to 'DKP hoarding Vs Kit hoarding'
I can see Umbra's point of view, i mean I have been waiting on a decent 1 hand or 2 hand weapon for ages which in turn would up my damage output and I know people have more than one such weapon, however I am not bitter about and will wait for 'my time'.
Quoteof course, as the bracers is the only T1 peice you don't have, surely you already have all the set bonuses apart from the, what is it, +threat from sunder?
yep thats right.. but most of the wrath gear is better +def/parry/block wise, so the cheapest way out is the bracers, cos they dont have any of those stats
Hey!
I get ressed on Vael fights for the sole purpos of adding my MIGHTY DPS.
Tho I am prot spec I don't complain of this , I like to add my small executes.
am looking into dualweald tanking , sounds fun.
Hey glad someone bought all this up, I've been considering it as of late!
The way I'm seeing it I think there is a definite bonus in bidding for a lower tier armour piece if someone wants to build up an effective set of resistant armour. However it is obvious that it would benefit a non-epic player more (they'd get the resistance and the stats bonuses) and thus contribute to the raid group more as a whole.
It is ultimately a choice of personal discretion, putting rules either way is going to biast the manner in which players are entitled to spend their dkp (they've earnt those points and deserve to bid on what they like). If one starts messing around saying you can't bid on x,y,z when the player can realistically use x,y,z and has the most dkp it will ultimately upset the loyalty syndrome that dkp in effect promotes.
So anyways to clear up my personal choice, given that I'm now the proud owner of a Judgement Crown is I won't be bidding on a Lawbringer Helm until all RG2 pallies (who contribute regularly) have a good epic helm. Even though it would be to my benefit to have the helm for Ragnaros with that extra FR as I have barely 120FR currently.
Furthermore those who are bidding in RG2 obviously must not be members of RG1 (as that would get quite silly), I realise there's an issue of old members having dkp from old raids and using it to buy things in RG2 sessions. Obviously I'm one of them. Now I will advocate my decision there, first off I earnt those dkp, second I'm not a member of RG1 so I can't spend them there and third off I actually earnt those points back in the early days when we spent longer earning fewer points (took us a while to down bosses the very first time) actually I have spent more hours in MC than many members of RG1 for instance.
Anyways I think imposing rules is not going to have a great effect, dkp effectively just allows those who put in more time to have first dibs on an item, if you're going to be silly and stack up loads of dkp just to get one item instead of improving your character as a whole that's your choice, and well, I could tell you you're silly but no point really.
Now I've had one of my prolonged rants I'll come to the final line, the system currently works, it's just up to everybody to be sensible and not myopic and selfish.
Oh and my sincere apologies to RG2 pallies for nicking all those items, don't worry 2 more and we'll all be quits hehe! (blame those RG1 peeps, not me!!!!)
Sheperdbook
lvl 60 Holy Paladin
"The Holy Flasher"