Ive made this post after we had some people getting angry at the invites today.. (5/4-06)
Its starting too tire me that everytime we do something some people gets pissed as i doesnt fit them all the time.. for instance tonight people got very pissed at us for using the invite system we did.. well we made the system to even out the chance at people getting in the raids, as some people apparently had macros ready for wiping the normal inviter.. so we thought up a system, the 4 inviters invite a few classes each.. different calsses each time so people would be able to predict who did what.. But still people get pissed when they dont get a spot.. Well listen! We had 30 people online who wanted to join ZG and we only have 20 spots.. we are doing our best to fulfill everyones wishes.. but its impossible.. but people tend go ballistic over it and its us that has to listen to it.. but lately people has gotten a bit hard in their tone.. We are doing a lot of work on the 20 man instances. Luna, Dajo, Optic, Mene and me are spending a lot of time on the lootsystems, bank chars, lootlist and that kind of stuff... and lately a lot of complaints from people..
But people please keep im mind that we are doing this out of our free will and spend our time doing this.. All this angry attitude towards us, ruins the game a bit, i didnt have much fun tonight after all the people getting pissed..
Please keep this in mind people and lets keep the tone a bit more friendly..
This thread is not made to start a argument people! its made to open peoples eyes a bit.. So if this thread turns into a flame thread, then the officers should feel free to delete it..
ps. Now i know how officers must have it! /me Bow before your might officers!
I can only say i fully agree on kreg his post.
We can try to use another system. For example: We let people reserve a spot on the forums and if they dont get in the raid at that time they get in the next time with priority. However that is a lot of work for us and i do not think we want to do it (at least i wont) these raids costs me a lot of free time allready (and i love them) but also doing that will be a bit too much i think.
If you have any better ideas plz tell us. But make it a system (or whatever you want to call it) which is easy to maintain and implement.
I give the officers a big :thumbsup2: cause i think they even have more :ranting: then us to put it bluntly (we only have 20 they have 40).
Lunares
Yeah it is alot of work for the officers and yes they shoud have a /cheer over it.
But I know how mad I can get my self and yes I got abit mad today. But dont tell it to them, hold it for your self or some near friends just to come off with it. Dont let it end at the officers.
They are doing all they can.
The only thing I can see you maybe coud see on is, a system to sign up on like 3 days before the raid. and the day before the raid you take out the grp you need so ppl know and dont stand in front of ZG like 1 hour before it starts to get a first place in the raid and go mad becouse they dont get.
I know that will be a little more work for the officers, but then again not the big time taker in my eyes. You coud make it like a calendar. but ofc somebody has to make the raids on it and chose the team. And ofc be abit fair, like you say kreg. So it not just the same persons that come all the time.
This is just my oppinion, so take it as you want.
( Sry for the bad spelling, but had to let it out. )
/// Deadlyspirit
Yes i was pretty pissed at this, specialy becos of nobody beeing "kind enough" to actualy say how it would go i was not able to play since sunday due to health issues and homework so i was really happy i could play wow again for a night and left to ZG at 18:30 game time so i could be on time for sure if they would say watch out not a set inviter this will change ok i would have understand.. but to change it without any warning is just plane stupid, how often have we "joked" with /tell dajo for MC invite in guild and even IF lfg channel..
im pretty sure i wasnt the only one that was not buying this joke as we thought it was
even then now we know this system it is just as leaky as the other
how easy is it to just set up 4 macros 1 for dajo 1 for luna 1 for kregron 1 for optical
or how easy is it to put something under Copy paste, click the name ctrl V and hit enter .. can do this way faster then anyone can type
or how about those who type a lot those already have an "unfair advangete"
so id suggest binning this system and just using the system we used in MC for a while with different keywords, totaly random words per class
say Druids whisper me banana for ZG invite, no way anyone can cheat that with macros or copy paste, only those who pay attention and type fast will be able to reply fast enough
And as a PS:
this is not to talk down on all you people who put A LOT of efford in to ZG and AQ i really appreciate this and keep up the good work, but try not to mess around with invites to much to avoid this kind un needed arguements
yust make 2 raids? i know you sayed that there were 30 members online. but there are a lot ingame friends that sure would like to kickass in a raid with sog to zg.
i alsow know luna tryed this yesterday. and didnt work.
but why not try it. and start it up in the forum so people know that were doing zg (since its not a official raid)
About the system the officers use in MC/BWL etc.
As far as i know you cant limit the class invites to 3 or so with that system. (if i am wrong plz tell me). So for example we would have 5 mages who get an invite then, so we would need to kick 2 for raid balance. That will give the same trouble of people getting mad getting an invite and kicked cause there were allready invited.
That system where you can reserve a spot for ZG/AQ is what we are thinking about, but we think that will be a lot of work and not a little. First you must make a post for it (ok not too much work yet). Then you need to check all the posts before a raid and make invites according to it. The next step is getting the people who reserved a spot in the next raid to the same place. Personally i think its a lot of work.
Lunares
nah, theres several options luna (with regards to signups)
i could hack togehter a php script to do it,
theres an already existing script called RaidNinja (i'd just need to host it somewhere) http://www.lemonrage.com/raidninja/ (http://www.lemonrage.com/raidninja/)
there are forum addons made speciifcally for raid signups (certainly for phpBB, not sure about IPB, but im not sure if the board admins, TL i guess, would instal that just for us)
My favourite option would be RaidNinja :P
QuoteOriginally posted by lunares@Apr 6 2006, 09:00 AM
Personally i think its a lot of work.
Lunares
[post=121209]Quoted post[/post]
/signed
There will never be a perfect system until everyone can guarantee 100% of the time that they will be there 100% of the time for 100% of the raid with 100% uninterrupted by RL emergencies playing time. If that ever happens then we will structure the Guild to have multiples of 40 members only, that we we will always have full raids for all wherever we are raiding. Until that happens, we'll all have to remain human and working within the contraints of an imperfect system for imperfect people.
TL.
In my old guild we used the signup system and that is any good either.. cause.. lets say 20 people signs up, then at 19:15 when invites is about to go out only 18 of those is on.. So we wait a few mins.. but after a while we invite two other and then the two that signed up comes online, we have the trouble again..
My own oppinion is that those two should just be "left" behind but we will still get trouble..
But its really not a problem with we can solve, when we can fit 28 man into a 20 man instance the problems will be solved.. :)
If someone signs up, theyre making a commitment to be on time for the raid, in return theyre guaranteed a spot in the raid.
If they dont make their commitment, their guarantee is gone.
As what Noevra said....try to invite the persons who have an application on the forum. This way you can see them in action as well.....
Thumbs up for all spending there free time into WoW - SoG.
Greets,
Daedalus
QuoteOriginally posted by Menedil@Apr 6 2006, 10:38 AM
If someone signs up, theyre making a commitment to be on time for the raid, in return theyre guaranteed a spot in the raid.
If they dont make their commitment, their guarantee is gone.
[post=121228]Quoted post[/post]
Why would a "sing up" at the forum be more fair than the way the invites are done now?
If you make a system where people have to sign up at some thread, I assume the thread will be posted some time before the raid, and than those who have access to the internett during the whole day (both at work/school or where ever they might be) will have a big advantage over those who only have internet access at home.
I'm not saying this because this will be a problem for me - I have internet access nearly 24/7 - but you have to try and see what problems different systems can cause.
And try to be a bit more humble when adressing those who spend quite a lot of their time organizing these raids. You should be thankfull for what they do. If you sometimes can't join the raid, well so be it, life is not fair.
And whatever you do, don't whine about it. I don't say you shouldn't be honest about it, but be so in a polite way :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Threbrilith@Apr 6 2006, 11:09 AM
And try to be a bit more humble when adressing those who spend quite a lot of their time organizing these raids. You should be thankfull for what they do. If you sometimes can't join the raid, well so be it, life is not fair.
And whatever you do, don't whine about it. I don't say you shouldn't be honest about it, but be so in a polite way :)
[post=121231]Quoted post[/post]
uh... i AM one of those people, and I've spent a hell of a lot of time and effort organising AQ20. I dont think ive ever seen you in one of the AQ raids so i guess you wouldnt know. (sorry if you werent addressing me there)
one of the reasons people get so angry with not getting a spot in a raid is because they come online thinking theyd get into the raid, travel to the instance... then at 19:15 they dont get in because.. maybe they had to turn away for five seconds and too many people had already got in, or some other reason.
It'd be more fair on the people that DONT get into the raid. Signups would be controlled by a script (in the case of RaidNinja) for instance... signups could be allowed from one day before, or the morning before the raid, the exact time doesnt matter. The difference between the current system and a signup one would be that rather than whispering a random phrase at 19:15 on the raid day, you push a button at some other time. Doesnt mean a lot to the people that DO get in, but for those that dont, theres no disappointment or time wasted. (plus theres several benefits such as signups for a reserve spot in the raid - basically a queue, knowing what classes we have beforehand and being able to control easily which we have through constraints such as allowing a maximum of certain classes, or requireing minimum numbers of certain classes.)
It might work for us, it might not. It sure works pretty well for quite a lot of guilds though.
QuoteOriginally posted by Menedil@Apr 6 2006, 11:48 AM
uh... i AM one of those people, and I've spent a hell of a lot of time and effort organising AQ20. I dont think ive ever seen you in one of the AQ raids so i guess you wouldnt know. (sorry if you werent addressing me there)
[post=121237]Quoted post[/post]
I'm sorry Menedil. I see now that it could seem like I was adressing you, but that weren't at all my intention. It just happened so because you were the last who said something about that sign up thing, and the last part in my post had nothing to do about that quote :blush:
I just wanted to state my general oppinion on those who tend to start bitching about anything as soon as it doesn't go their way.
And yes, I also hope to be able to attend more of the AQ20 and ZG raids, but as of now my time schedule is tighe enough as it is with the 40man raids :)
I'd hate to be an inviter for raids.
*hugs* to everyone who organises one.
Well I have to say I whent a little overboard last night. There were a lot of factors playing in to my day being particularily crappy, but that is still no excuse. So sorry for being a jackass.
In my defence, I had been running around the server waiting for the ZG raid to start for around 10 hours that day, with not much of a healthy diet, so that alone had me in a crappy mood. The fact that I missed the last 4 ZG/AQ raids due to various reasons didn't help either as my goal is to reach exalted with the zandalar tribe.
None of this really matters, it's just a game, I know.
But as I was chatting with lunares about what classes were needed and how exited I was about finally kicking off in ZG that night, I managed to miss the invites. This apparently was terribly ammusing to certain people by the reactions to it. Well I accepted that I'd missed it, and settled for a queue spot, even though I was standing 2 inches from the instance when the invites came out.
I waited a few minutes and watched people riding by that apparently had been some distance away when the invites came out but still recieved them. They whent in to the instance, so I checked who was in the queue and who was in the raid and figured this is just rediculus.
In frustration I did a LFG in Stormwind, and to my surprise Alextrazas Keepers needed some more people for their raid. So I got a spot along with two others from SOG. But the thing is, the skill level of these guys got me even more pissed as not one person in the group knew what the hell they were doing(50 minus DKP!).
But you know what, not even that tipped me over the edge...
I was there, steaming, boiling with frustration, just seconds from logging off to cool down. Realizing how completely rediculus this was.
It took one person; with the diplomatic characteristics of a brick. THAT tipped me over...
But enough of this. It's just my view on last night. I will put it behind me. It doesn't matter. Whoooshaaaa...
On the positive side:
- I was in ZG the night the instance opened, and killed the first boss.
- I raided ZG and cleared the entire instance in one afternoon with Righteous including Hakkar.
- I raided ZG with CoC's group before SOG got a group together for regular raids.
- I was in the first sucsessful pure SOG raid to ZG
No hard feelings towards the people putting in the time to lead these raids, hell I know what it's like. And congratulations on knowing what we whent through before we came up with todays system for official raids.
Please understand how I can feel stepped on, when I have put in a fair share of the base for todays succsess.
I will stop rambling now, as this is going nowhere...
hugging vargen for the baddes day in wow his live.
:dummy:
/hugs GM
TL.
:(
*hugs*
(poor brick :()
I'll send you a gnome to sit on in bear form, I know you enjoy that Varg.
Not sure how distance to instance is related to invites though...
Here's to hoping you stop having bad days, you scare me when you're angry
I'd just like to add a couple of cents on this.
First of all, I guess this is getting more of a problem now that us new RG2 people are showing up and hogging the spaces.
I guess there will never be a perfect system, but there are a couple of advantages to joining on the web site in advance.
1. You know if you have a spot, so that you can plan for other things if you don't have one.
2. Invitations can start as soon as people log on, so that a raid can start earlier if all happen to log on earlier than 19:15.
3. We know in advance if the raid will be full, and if there is enough interest to try getting together a 2nd raid team.
Jemeny da sneaky one.
/4 Whisper Dajo for BWL invite
I must agree with Vargan
When you are standing just outside the instance waiting, the one who invites must take a look around and invite those that are there first (class needs ofcourse) and then go on to the gchat - that was what Opticalrush did in my first couple of ZG runs with you guys.
But keep up hte good job those that arranges the runs, it is allways fun beeing in a 20-man instance :)
and what if theres 30 people stood around waiting outside the instance ? :)
i spoke with luna earlier today and we're going to talk with the others who organise the 20-man raids about systems for invites.
What menedil said.
For example we invite 3 per class max initially for balance. Now we have 4 pallys at the entrance. Then what should we do. Inviting people who are there works for a small time then we have the same problem of everyone beeing there. Besides for people who cannot come online before 19:10 or so its not fair also.
Lunares
QuoteOriginally posted by lunares@Apr 7 2006, 12:00 AM
Besides for people who cannot come online before 19:10 or so its not fair also.
Good point. One I often suffer from.
TL.
I see your points Luna and Menedil. If 4 of a single class is outside the entrance when invites start we have a problem, and I have no idea how to solve it in a way everyone is happy with.
And TL, I suffer from that too. Before I leave, and I know we have a raid when I get back, I just place my character outside the instance and when I come back I''m ready for invite. Did that yesterday in MC.
Well basicly Vargen, I was getting sick myself of people complaining about the system so I said quit whining to you since basicly, you're the GM. And I don't think you can afford saying I have the diplomatic characteristics of a brick since you're just as bad yourself. :)
This is the system they chose and there's no point of whining about it. All systems have their good and bad sides.
Edit: Typo's
QuoteOriginally posted by Mazii@Apr 7 2006, 02:51 PM
I see your points Luna and Menedil. If 4 of a single class is outside the entrance when invites start we have a problem, and I have no idea how to solve it in a way everyone is happy with.
Make them roll about the spots. but shoud not be nessesary.
"KreuZ
post Yesterday, 08:08 AM
Post #27
Unfortunate Noise"
^^That is indeed true :P
But on topic, its must be hard to please everybody, but seriously, if people are taht bothered about going, turn up, and two groups can go out, simple as :P Most of us all know someone in teh guild in real life, so give em a ring and get em on :P
I really think that some sort of web application formulae for 20 man raids could be a nice idea, at least to see how it works, and that would eventually give "inviters" a chance of contacting Danu, which weve been raiding ZG with before to maybe join up and fill out spots in a ZG_2/AQ20_2 run, if they wanna offcourse.
Having a single 20 man raid is simply not enough when we effective have above 80 raiders. (i know many people dont pey much interest for 20 man ones, but about 50% appaers to do)
Jemeny good points you have, Ability to predict raid attendence must be a bonus.
I dont know maybe the application could include a time schedule saying im able to raid from 19:10 due to work, while other (im thinking about Vargen) was able to raid from 11:00 that would make it even more possible to have 2 raids a day, an early and a late, so alts were able to help in the late one, or AQ then proceeding to ZG in the evening.
The Signup part dosnt nescesarely have to require loads of time, it could be a simple first to enlist first to serve. then look the list through and count, 1 paladin, 2 paladins, 3 paladins THE END! then proceed with another class from the top, untill raid is filled with raiders, offcourse that would give some problems with people not having internet access, but that problem might partially be sorted by trying to setup 2 groups, since that dosnt seem possible we can try to get in "PUG" (Danu people +random friends) they could always be spread around, so that a group dosnt "suffer" due to poorly integrated people in our raids.
As i said before, i would love to help out on this matter, if my help is needed. may that be due to lack of time, or ideas.
Regards
Luthor
Maybe this could be of a little help
GuildEventManager (http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=1592)
It is the GuildEventManager add-on. You can schedule raids ingame....
Description :
----------------
This AddOn allows you to create/schedule/manage future raid instance directly in-game. Players can register (join) and reserve a room for your instance, or cancel subscription.
You can setup a maximum players for your event, as well as the min/max per class.
When a player wants to join and there is no room left for his class, he is put in a *substitute* queue, waiting for someone to cancel his subscription.
The leader of an event does not have to be logged in for a player to subscribe.
This addon has been designed to help guilds to schedule events, and its member to say *I'll be there*, and count the number of players that are ok for an instance.
It does work for multiple guilds (kind of Alliance of guilds), if you want, or even with your friend list.
All dates are stored in universal time, and displayed in local time, so if someone creates an event in a different timezone than yours, you will see the correct time on your side.
GEM is nice addon, but is has some bugs, we used it in my old guild and a lot of times we had people signing up where there were free spots left and they still didnt get a main spot but got backup spots and then other signed up later and got the main spots.. it is a very bugged addon which im affraid wont help much, just make more props.. And we have people who dont like to get to much addons in so they would be force to use addons just to raid... which i dont like.. But thx for the suggestion knabbel :D
That's my concern - and it also needs updating after every WoW patch :(
The Officers are however currently looking at a web-based options as part of a wider review of raid attendance etc. This might solve the problem in a much more relible way.
TL.