Well, yes and no. RG1 is missing members for the raid, the ones that are online gets a spot, so that does work very good.
DKP wise they get ahead of the rest, yes, but they also give their time and effort the raid and therefore its natural that their DKP is higher.
[post=127820]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]
QuoteOriginally posted by Marduk@May 19 2006, 12:14 PM
he spends the extra time and efford in an extra raid, wich sometimes people get invited to, yes you could see that as lucky, but we do need the person we dont do it to pick on others ...
[post=127826]Quoted post[/post]
Agreed with much of what Bastet said.
I'm sorry folks, I think your moaning about nothing and totally missing the point. Stop focusing on *your* position in *your* loot queue and *your* loss. Start focusing on *your* raid group success. A better equipped raid goes further faster meanign you will get more loot, so please cheer next time you see a raid member get some loot that improves their equipment.
RG2 members will *always* be able to help out RG1 if RG1 is short. That's the system. If you're worried about it then join the RG1 raid when the invites go out.
What you are complainign about is a system where someone who helps out RG1 is rewarded with DKP. Is that wrong? Or are you more worried that *you* were not the one rewarded? Take DKP away from an RG2 member in an RG1 raid and you then split the squads, develop a two tier Guild and piss people off - and that is not going to happen.
Stop worrying about other people for goodness sake. Focus on your own joib. We've had some right good moaners recently, some of whom barely know how to play their class - there are clearly more important things to use your time on - like learning how to play that class!
If you think that issuing an invite to all RG2 class members to join the RG1 raid is unfair then I'm sorry, but that comes with the territory. Learn to type and don;t bemoan someone a place in a raid when they were their to answeer a call for help and you were not. Get in earlier to be there for the invites, or join the queue and deal with it, or stop whining.
TL.
I have to agree with Bastet too..
I don't see why ppl worry that much about DKP..
what will come will come.. (cept maybe those Stormrage pants:))
and btw I all for resetting the DKP.. seeing as I'm on the negative side:)
QuoteI'm sorry folks, I think your moaning about nothing and totally missing the point. Stop focusing on *your* position in *your* loot queue and *your* loss. Start focusing on *your* raid group success. A better equipped raid goes further faster meanign you will get more loot, so please cheer next time you see a raid member get some loot that improves their equipment.
/hail !
Whats the big deal with getting something first? You will get it sometime, you may not have it the first time, but if you raid you will get it the 2nd/3d/4th etc etc time it drops. Yeah it sux waiting for an item that dropepd when you didnt get it , then waiting for it for a longer time (Toep , my gloves f.ex :P)
It'l clear up, officers always fix stuff :)
100% agreement with bastet and tea..
stop moaning and start raiding!
QuoteOriginally posted by Gorion@May 19 2006, 01:19 PM
100% agreement with bastet and tea..
stop moaning and start raiding![post=127849]Quoted post[/post]
Agree!
/signed
I really do hope you know why we kept the posts concerning this issue on the more private NG forum after all these posts. There you are able to express your opinions and discuss them without being called whiners and told to shut up!
Nefrion out!
We all are familiar with the fact of loot passing by in front of our nosses......or did we all get our T0 with the first roll? How many UBRS, BRD etc runs did YOU do to obtain that 1 piece of gear? As far as I know....effort is more chance on getting item(s) but not chanceless....... That goes for all instances from lvl 1 to BWL. No help from RG2 could mean no run at all.....no help from RG1 could mean no run at all....like mentioned before the item will fall eventually just not as fast as you hope.
And if I wanted to have Tier 1 fast I wouldn't join a learning raid group....which I find (here it comes) FUN....... The whole learning curve. Getting more times into an instances is also good for your reputation.....
Stop TANGOing get in line and a big thanks to those who make raiding possible.
Thank you!
Daedalus.
PS: And yes I did join BWL 2 times..........great instance (I'm RG2)
QuoteOriginally posted by Nefrion@May 19 2006, 02:38 PM
I really do hope you know why we kept the posts concerning this issue on the more private NG forum after all these posts. There you are able to express your opinions and discuss them without being called whiners and told to shut up!
Nefrion out!
[post=127857]Quoted post[/post]
Maybe you see it that way, TL and Bastet just gave their opinion about this, just like everybody else. They wont do anything if you react on them in a decent manner.
Well maybe the systems isnt flawless, but its something you would have to deal with. The organising of a guild takes a ---- load of work and this flaw aint to bad in my eyes, only their number increases a little bit more than yours. Develop a team spirit, we gotta work together as a team and not as 40 individuals, that aint working.
If people are just having a rant and making an opinion known then, is that not what forums are for?
But it changes if you expect an instant change of a complicated system.
The former is voicing your ideas/problems, which is ok as then it can be taken into account at a later date, the latter is saying it's wrong now and I want to know when it'll be changed (in your favour).
1) It may seem unfair that someone got into a raid you didn't/couldn't but what it comes down to is RG1 needed people (maybe only 1), RG2 is perfect to fill that gap, would you rather we went in undermanned?
2) You can't penalise someone who came along to help, after all, they spent the time and effort in there as well. Even if you didn't get the opportunity to go, that's like asking for a salary from a company because you want to work even if they employ someone else
3) RG2 is nearly farming MC now too so it won't be long until you get said item, and besides, once you get to BWL you won't much care :D
4) it's quite possible that said raider can get an item from BWL, and if you look at item costs, you'll notice they're huge from that instance, one item and they'll be bottom of the list
5 and last) the focus should be on improving overall raid group, as long as said person doesn't use their BWL dkp in MC ahead of others and then leave/move to RG1 then it benefits you as well. Cameraderie people! there is no 'I' in team, or somesuch waffle (mmm, waffles)
Nefrion this subject is not a NG-issue.. It is a subject that conecerns the entire guild, which, has Gorion said, is a family.. There is no need to hide a discussion from the majority of the guild.. We discuss with each other and we support each other..
and as Sebas said while I was writing, what the other people such as TL and bastet wrote is their 2 cents.
QuoteOriginally posted by Nefrion@May 19 2006, 01:38 PM
I really do hope you know why we kept the posts concerning this issue on the more private NG forum after all these posts. There you are able to express your opinions and discuss them without being called whiners and told to shut up!
Nefrion out!
[post=127857]Quoted post[/post]
Here are my 2 cents and represent my opinion only.
You say you should shut up. I dont agree on that you should discuss it. But you are afraid to loose your first spot in dkp as far is understood it right (cause some ppl in BWL get more cause of the boss kills there). RG2 gets MC loot 3-4 times as fast as RG1. Which means BWL is not that far of. And still your not satisfied cause some ppl get a bit more dkp cause the got in the BWL raid?
And when RG1 has a MC run a few of you get switched in so prevent needless DE in. So even if that RG2 guy/girl gets an item first then you get it the 2nd time it drops and the raid will profit from it either way. And yes its not fun to see loot go to another person if you wanted it. Still it will drop again. And also in BWl some set items drop a lot (mage anyone) which will mean a RG 2 member will get it eventually. That means he gets about 200 dkp from his account. And thats much if you look at the MC/onyxia dkp costs.
Lunares
If it is for the team spirit and not for the loot then please remove DKP for RG2 in RG1's BWL!!
then you will only recruit people who are team players and not the loot-freaks cuz they dont want to join as they get no DKP for it.
problem solved...
Have a good weekend guys :)
First off i would like to say that being as i postet the major post (said a lot of stuff anyways) i felt all of those "whining" and "stop it" comments were directed at me. It was not a very nice feeling and i actualy got a little sad that not even one person said anything about how my suggestions was or anything.
I did not make my post to whine, but to tell people what it is we think that could be improved. Officers cant sit and do everything, they need the help of the members, and i thought that was what i was doing. Instead "I" get flamed and told to shut up and get my act together... I had hoped for a debate, and maby something from the officers about what ideas they had, but that was aparently not what people wanted.. I do hope you will take into consideration that there are people behind the posts, and we have feelings...I was only trying to help..
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@May 19 2006, 12:50 PM
I'm sorry folks, I think your moaning about nothing and totally missing the point. Stop focusing on *your* position in *your* loot queue and *your* loss. Start focusing on *your* raid group success. A better equipped raid goes further faster meanign you will get more loot, so please cheer next time you see a raid member get some loot that improves their equipment.
[post=127841]Quoted post[/post]
The succes of a raid group (in my humble opinion) is getting some gear to every person, and getting it devided. Having 5 people in a raid getting good gear, while the others have to wait, also means that we will have to wait that time before we can move on. 1 priest with 5 set items wont help the raid as much as 5 priests with 1 each.. i should think.
That was the reson to my consern, and my reson to try and help. Wont happen again, sorry.
QuoteOriginally posted by Nefrion@May 19 2006, 02:58 PM
If it is for the team spirit and not for the loot then please remove DKP for RG2 in RG1's BWL!!
then you will only recruit people who are team players and not the loot-freaks cuz they dont want to join as they get no DKP for it.
problem solved...
Have a good weekend guys :)
[post=127871]Quoted post[/post]
So this means we can remove DKP all-together and just DE everything and give it to the homless people, right? :P
Jemeny
QuoteOriginally posted by Asmoden@May 19 2006, 03:03 PM
Officers cant sit and do everything, they need the help of the members, and i thought that was what i was doing. Instead "I" get flamed and told to shut up and get my act together... I had hoped for a debate, and maby something from the officers about what ideas they had, but that was aparently not what people wanted.. I do hope you will take into consideration that there are people behind the posts, and we have feelings...I was only trying to help..
[post=127876]Quoted post[/post]
Looking back on my own post, i admit i was a bit harsh, but the last few days it seams for me personaly that whatever the officers do there is always something else that ppl start complaining about what also isnt up to spec, we bust our chops to get the guild running smoothly, and keep it running smoothly, and its personaly quite infuryiating to find a post directed at officers point us at some flaw in our systems. After a few days i tend to get a bit blunt and pissed at it, i be sorry for that.
People get stressed and feelings fly high, that is understandeble... I think alot of this subject is based on slightly misunderstood posts, and this would be much easier to sort out on a meeting on TS... This usually sorts out most of the problems, because its a active debate, and people have to make account for thier opinions. So perhaps those who needs this clarified should set up a meeting on TS with some officers?
And all remember - We play to have fun, and ocationally we pick up a Phat loot or two... :D
hmmmmmmmmm.... when i started raiding with SOG/Danu (before actually joining) back in... july? last year, we were still wiping at magmadar iirc. possibly even lucifron.
our first ragnaros kill was nearly six months later, 6th of january 2006.
RG2 have been raiding for what... two months? and youre going to cash in on some hot ragnaros love very soon. it took me the best part of 7 months to get a full nightslayer set, and within 2 months i see most rg2 rogues already have quite a few NS pieces and epic weapons!
dont worry about getting your loot, it will come, maybe you wont get it the next time, but it is just a matter of time, and you sure as hell wont have to wait for as long as most of RG1 had to :)
concerning dkp hoarding for one particular item - totally not worth it. fyi with level 1 stupid trogg daggers my backstabs did something like 75% of the dmg that perditions blade did.
These things should be debated. And it is not directed at officers. They do a great job!
IMO these things just have to be debated to correct flaws in the system.
When were the last time you learned anything from a person who had the same opinion as you had?
Thats what this thread is here for Nef ;)
hmm, this is quite interesting.
- for now I see some RG2 members being mad because of the DKP system we have.
- The officers have problem telling them what thay are working on.
looks like you need to make some public guild forum showing you the officer's progress with stuff.
whould be great "maybe." I dont know, its just my thinking. :frusty:
become friends with your guild m8ts (class) and pass on stuff.
that what many of us did :) made a whole new friendly guild.
I still whine and do things that makes officers "mad" :narnar:
If we progress fast enough this will soon be over due to BWL starting for RG2 to.........
There is 1 major thing people need to realise here.
If you class loot drops and you dont get it, you WILL get it next time or the next time
DONT be sad that you didnt get it, be HAPPY that you'll get it next time. You should be more sad if loot for another class dropped.
thats a common misunderstanding
I agree with Menedil. A lot of people are complaining about losing out on an item which they will probably get next week. I remember wiping endlessly on MC bosses, not as early on as some people, but still wiped on a lot of bosses there, and also attended raids to BWL, where all we got we're 10g + repair bills each night and no loot and hardly any dkp (like, 10dkp!). And people are complaining about who gets the loot fastest....
Personally, I've passed on items to other priests so they can get a particular set bonus, I've also whispered for an item that was otherwise going to be disenchanted. If you check the current RG1 priest dkp it ranges from between 1500 - 3000, this is not because we're saving for a particular item, this is because priest loot varely rarely drops for RG1. I don't complain, and I've even offered to pass on a few more pieces.
QuoteOriginally posted by Asmoden
The succes of a raid group (in my humble opinion) is getting some gear to every person, and getting it devided.
I agree with this, which is why I've passed/have offered to pass on items that have dropped in the past. For example, I've passed on Bindings of Transcendence a few times, and possibly also the Belt of Transcendence, so that people are able to get their 3 trans set bonus, a big help to the raid. The bindings would have been an upgrade for me, since I'm still wearing blue bracers, but a couple of stats, in my opinion, just cannot be compared to 15% mana regeneration while casting for a priest...
If people in other classes were able to do the same, would this thread be here? That's my 2c on the situation, and could possibly be something to think about
ppl.. in the end this is all bullcrap..
if you paticipate in a BWL then you will get BWL Dkp becuae you put an effort/money/time into BWL
now if its RG1 or 2.. who bloody cares?
so this guy went to bwl, earned 88dkp and managed to get this and that item before you did... Big deal.. i have waited nearly a year for the bindings of the windseeker to drop for me, and then both of them drop for RG2... just imagine how i felt.. but i dont give a hot danm.. ille get them in due time neways
QuoteOriginally posted by Nefrion@May 19 2006, 02:58 PM
If it is for the team spirit and not for the loot then please remove DKP for RG2 in RG1's BWL!!
then you will only recruit people who are team players and not the loot-freaks cuz they dont want to join as they get no DKP for it.
Let me see people get DKP for spending there time raiding like people get money for spending there time working, now some RG2 members spend some overtime to help the guild but you think he shoulnd't get paid overtime since it will give him more then you get for not doing the overtime?
The point of the DKP system is to spread the Loot in a way that it benefits the guild the most, now if one defender is more likly to help RG1 then another defender he should be getting better loot then other defenders since he not only helps other defenders get loot by helping them in RG2 but he is also of more use to RG1 when he helps there. Every defender has the same chance of getting into RG1 BWL raids since there is an equal amount of guardians in all classes and equal amount of defenders in all classes.
And seriously is there a single RG2 member that doens't have 3MC pieces? i know that after what less then 2months of raiding? I had to wait 2months for my first MC item, and another another 2months to get upto 3pieces.
And a quick question to everyone how often do you look or think about what loot you have on your character? My guess is that you do it almost never ingame unless someone else brings it up or when you see a possible upgrade. I think its only when you are offline and thinking about how you can improve or you are dreaming over possible loot that drops of a far of boss. One thing i am at least pretty sure of is that you aren't thinking OMG if only i had gotten that weapon instead of the other person we might have gotten the boss down from 28% to 0% or when in Battlegrounds you don't think if only i had this nice head piece we would have won the game, you think why can't people work together and we would win this.
Also what is your first thought after killing a boss for the first time? is it "i wonder what loot he dropped" or is it "OMG WE FINALLY DID IT, THAT WAS AMAZING. GREAT JOB PEOPLE"
Lastly people stop thinking about the DKP system and complaining about it. You will get items sooner or later, there will be new items that replace old and don't think about if you get it today before someone else or you get it next week. If the complaints about the DKP system and loot system don't stop i would advice the officers to make the DKP site only accessible to them. People might complain for a short time but the only reason it is visible to players is so that you know you will get the item or not when it drops and you can be sure the officers aren't cheating the item distribution. I actually think it would help with the morale if it wasn't visible since people would whisper for items they want instead of thinking i want that but i will wait for the other thing i want first.
/signed Teni :D
QuoteOriginally posted by Drazila@May 19 2006, 09:21 PM
Lastly people stop thinking about the DKP system and complaining about it. You will get items sooner or later, there will be new items that replace old and don't think about if you get it today before someone else or you get it next week. If the complaints about the DKP system and loot system don't stop i would advice the officers to make the DKP site only accessible to them. People might complain for a short time but the only reason it is visible to players is so that you know you will get the item or not when it drops and you can be sure the officers aren't cheating the item distribution. I actually think it would help with the morale if it wasn't visible since people would whisper for items they want instead of thinking i want that but i will wait for the other thing i want first.
[post=127961]Quoted post[/post]
I won't quote the entire post, but this is exactly the point. Loot IS NOT IMPORTANT.
Sure I might be somewhat obsessed with a certain item myself, at times, but in the end of the day the team is what is important.
At the moment I belive RG2 have missed out on this, because they did not spend a month trying to get passed the imps in MC, they did not spend 6 months working on relatively unknown tactics to get to Ragnaros. Take one look at my loot history, and look carefully on the dates; that is the normal rate of getting your Tier 1 set.
And as a side note, there is a new DKP site still not implemented and if this fighting and conflicts due to DKP continue, we may well keep it a officers only site. We may well decide to zero out all DKP or hang on, maybe we would pretend to have one and do loot council. DKP is a queue system that rewards according to time spent and effort put in, not to who is the biggest... well you get the picture.
Quotereally do hope you know why we kept the posts concerning this issue on the more private NG forum after all these posts. There you are able to express your opinions and discuss them without being called whiners and told to shut up!
Oh my god, how narrow-minded that was, im speachless. The officers havent done much else than help. Remember! They have rl's too you know, when you take up a spot as an officer your required to do alot more than just raid, you plan & discuss and you recruit.
If it would'nt have been for the officers, would we have been on the last boss in BWL? in such short time? We're in Phase 2 ffs, even with our attendance problems.
You should be happy that you were the ones that "got to raid with us" im saying that with the risk of sounding cocky, but if the loot is such a big deal to you then you shouold be happy for getting free epix ein "ez mode"
I see it as an privelege to raid with sog, and you should too.
(this whole post being written with the risk of getting called an ass-kisser)
QuoteOriginally posted by Vargen@May 19 2006, 09:41 PM
I won't quote the entire post, but this is exactly the point. Loot IS NOT IMPORTANT.
[post=127975]Quoted post[/post]
Stormrage leggings :whistle:
I understand how people feel when they think they are on top of DKP for their class, saving it for a long while and someone else does 1 or 2 BWL runs and overtakes. Yes it is true that if you miss out on loot, you wil aquire it some other day and should feel happy for your raidmate for winning it not to mention RG2's progress with MC has been much faster than when RG1 first started. But to reward people who have put more time and effort?...I'm not too sure about this. For example:
Player A does MC for 30hours.
Player B does MC for 10hours and BWL for 15hours
Player B would have more DKP with same or little more effort while spending a lot less time because the DKP ratio for BWL is much higher than MC.
Perhaps it would be best to do a rotate between players in a class so that the same player does not go in everytime RG1 is in need. A more complicated invite system but some would agree more fair.
I'm just here to answer the topic title "Is it fair?" (concluded that it is slightly a little unfair) and personally, don't give a damn on how long it takes for me to get my stuff. But getting my Zandalar chestpiece now would be very nice! That is all :)
I have read your post over and over again Neff.. Cant see why you quoted me. Did I critisize any of the officers in my post? My English isnt perfect but in my language "express your opinions" is not equal to "discredit officers".
And thank you for letting me know that I should be honored to be in a guild with you.
Hmm - this topic was meant to make attention to the fact at there is more ppl end needed from RG2 who wants to help out RG1 in BWL and I did think all should have the opportunity to get a chance on that.
As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter†button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.
I am not complaint over I not get invites to raid with RG1 because I have got my part of it but over the system used because it does for me seems not to be fair for all.
But when I read the different reply’s in this topic I get scared over some of the answers here. For example I have read in other topic on this forum at the officers want us to come with all kind of issue here on forum (or on TS) so we can have discussion about it and so we can sort it out in some way.
In this topic there is a comment who says “deal with it, or stop whining†that’s in my eyes a fin way telling me/us not to discuss this or anything else where you don’t agree with the majority and don’t tell us that, just keep it to you self.
I find that comment not to be in the spirit of what I did read somewhere else on this forum.
I hope this forum is meant to be a place where everybody can write their opinion and get some sober reply’s to it, even if the opinion is against the majority of ppl.
Fully agree with Neff and Vargens posts, its dkp for gods sake..... Teni said a few posts ago, it took him 2 months or more to get one MC epic, and a further couple of months to get his 3 piece bonus. Im guessing atg the rate of progression of RG2 members, as a result of being aided by RG1 and the officers, you all have a lot more in a very short space of time. You'll all have the items soon enough at the rate you are going, so why complain about 50 dkp or how ever much it is. Its all about the new boss kills, and working at reaching new goals, the loot is just the bonus. I remember RG1's frist Ragnaros kill, we havd been trying for months on end, some people left the guild because we couldn't do it, but the majority stuck with it, and kept trying and trying. There were arguements over it, people shouted at each other, but when he finally went down early this year, it was great to know that you've finally killed what we had been working towards for the last half a year when MC started. Thats better than the loot itself, so give the officers a break, I can't imagine all the stuff they have to do, because at the end of the day, you'll get the item eventually.
QuoteAnd thank you for letting me know that I should be honored to be in a guild with you.
Well, thats one way of slamming it in my face, i just meant that when you get an opurtinity to raid with the people _I_ raid with, i'd be mad if i got that opurtinity taken away. I
I havent been able to raid for almost 3 weeks now, i've tried but i cant raid before next weekend, or maybe even this sunday!
There will always be someone who has more dkp than you, you may have more at one time but you wont be on top all the time, but you
will get the item at the end of the day.
Imagine when sog first started raiding? it was a 35-5 Danu/sog ratio, and i think teni got hte first epic in sog,(From mc) wich was LB bracers or something? well it doesnt matter.
The point is, then it wasnt "ezmode" killing 6-7 bosses at 1 night. It wasnt even that when i started raiding, was pretty much alike, but "we didnt mind".
I dont know if its the same with you, but after some raiding its 1stkills>loot . If i wanted loot i'd accept thantors "invite" and join anything.
Im not trying to preach or learn you something, im just a shitkid afterall, just think over it, some of the officers has wifes,kids or Gf's even RL's! But still they use x amounts of hours making this the guild it is.
~
QuoteOriginally posted by Greatdanes@May 20 2006, 10:14 AM
Hmm - this topic was meant to make attention to the fact at there is more ppl end needed from RG2 who wants to help out RG1 in BWL and I did think all should have the opportunity to get a chance on that.
As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter†button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.
I am not complaint over I not get invites to raid with RG1 because I have got my part of it but over the system used because it does for me seems not to be fair for all.
Well the problem is that you can't really change the invite system without making an advanced rotation system that will most likly never work because of unknow attendance of people. If you have online Sign ups it is basicly who was fastest 2days before the raid instead of at the raid night. would it be fair for a person that can be online on raid night but not on the day the signups come up? Now i haven't watched the invites for RG1 really but only change i can see is for them to ask for specific classes when inviting RG2 so that there is a bigger chance for those in the needed class at the moment to get an invite. Another way would be for the officers to pick out a random RG2 member and invite him but that could soon get into favoritizing some persons.
But the DKP system and invite system has been complained about since the start, The dkp system has never been changed and the invite system has been changed at least 4times but there will always be complaints about those things and the people that have been here for a long time realise this. And it is also important to realise that maybe the system isn't fair to absolutly all persons but it is close to fair to everyone that is in it and it is fair to most of those in it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Neff@May 20 2006, 11:29 AM
Imagine when sog first started raiding? it was a 35-5 Danu/sog ratio, and i think teni got hte first epic in sog,(From mc) wich was LB bracers or something? well it doesnt matter.
Actually it was 25/15 -30/10 ratio and vargen and ragnarh got the loot from the first lucifron kill, i also think dillinja got a BoE felheart piece before we killed lucifron. I didn't get an item before 2months after we started raiding, that was the night we took down gehennas for the first time.
QuoteOriginally posted by Drazila@May 20 2006, 09:47 AM
But the DKP system and invite system has been complained about since the start, The dkp system has never been changed and the invite system has been changed at least 4times but there will always be complaints about those things and the people that have been here for a long time realise this. And it is also important to realise that maybe the system isn't fair to absolutly all persons but it is close to fair to everyone that is in it and it is fair to most of those in it.
[post=128016]Quoted post[/post]
Quotint Teni here( or do you prefer Drazila? or puddlepums?)
Its close to perfect,(imo) and you progress fast enough in MC so that you can get alot of dkp & items quickly, it'll come just wait ;)
From my experiance, and with other guilds i know, for example i think righteous keeps RG1, RG2, RG3 etc all SEPARATE from each other.
This means, separate dkp site, separate raids all altogeather RG1 doesnt have enough members for MC? tough sh-it. Not enough for BWL, tough shi-t again there should be plenty of members about to support RG1
I totally understand what RG2 people are saying, and although its helping RG1, it is totally unfair to the rest of the prople in RG2
QuoteOriginally posted by Sinap@May 20 2006, 08:47 AM
Fully agree with Neff and Vargens posts, its dkp for gods sake.....
[post=127997]Quoted post[/post]
Oki if its just 'dkp for gods sake' take the dkp system away and roll. Those comments totally underminded the dkp system all togeather.
DKP is meant to award attendance, but if it only awards the people from RG2 that can type the "key word" the fastest, or needed purely on a class need, it awards people on luck, or fastest typer. Which is why I can totally understand everyones problem from RG2 with it. 80% of them WANT the opportunity to raid BWL and get the extra dkp, and hell, maybe even a piece of loot? But in reality, maybe 2-3 people a week get to join. Leave possibly up to 20 other people feeling left out.
ALOT if not ALL the RG1 posts are extremely rational, "lol u will get loot in the end just wait"
Every poster (rg1)has basically condemned the DKP system by saying stuff like "its just loot" if its just loot take the dkp system away and roll. As its clear it isn't helping RG2 at the present moment!
QuoteOriginally posted by Voretex@May 20 2006, 12:26 PM
Oki if its just 'dkp for gods sake' take the dkp system away and roll. Those comments totally underminded the dkp system all togeather.
DKP is meant to award attendance, but if it only awards the people from RG2 that can type the "key word" the fastest, or needed purely on a class need, it awards people on luck, or fastest typer. Which is why I can totally understand everyones problem from RG2 with it. 80% of them WANT the opportunity to raid BWL and get the extra dkp, and hell, maybe even a piece of loot? But in reality, maybe 2-3 people a week get to join. Leave possibly up to 20 other people feeling left out.
[post=128021]Quoted post[/post]
First of it doesn't undermine the DKP system, it is saying that people don't need to focus or even see the DKP system. The DKP system is there to help the officers spread the loot so it benefits the guild the most, it just a bonus that it rewards people for time spent also.
About the sepperate RG1 and RG2 that would work but we would need to invite more persons since the current system isn't built for 2full raid groups. 2 Full raid groups need a minimum of 7per class for 72% attendance requirement and 8per class for 66% attendance. The problem lies with in the fact that someone always complains about minor issuse with the invite system so the officers change it but as i said you can't make a system that everyone likes since that would require you to have a guild of 40persons with 100% attendance.
I hate the edit delay :D
If you are wondering why it is a bad thing to invite more people to the guid to have 2 sepperate groups here is why
Once there was a guild with 64members that raided MC and BWL. But not everyone had the lowest attendance required to raid so there were queues of 15persons to get into the raids at times. Then someone got an idea, we have more then a half a raid group, why don't we invite another half raid group so we can all raid. So the guild went up to 90raiders and everyone got to raid, but sometimes the old raid needed more players so they had to invite extra persons from the new raid. This made the new raiders sad since there wasn't a big chance that they would get into the old raids. So they propose to get more people in the guild so there is enough players for both raids. And now instead of having one raid with 15man queue they had 2 raids with 15man queues.
Pros for current system
-No queues on MC raid nights.
-People aren't sad that they didn't get into BWL with RG1 or that someone else is raiding MC when they aren't.
-You have reserves for both groups when they are missing people so raids aren't canceled because of lack of people
Cons
-Invites are random and not easy to get when the reserves are needed(only fix for this is a rotation wich is hard to implement and people will complain that they didn't have a chance to use there turn since they couldn't raid that night)
-Those that get the reserve spot get some extra DKP(fixes for this are only to remove the DKP from the person that gets the spot witch is unfair for that person since he earned that DKP and might cause people not wanting the reserve spots or the rotation system)
Signup pages are equally random as the raid invite on the raid night, it is just a question of who is online when the signup comes up.
Pros for a full 2raid group 64man system
-Noone can get extra DKP from joining other group.
-Raids will always have enough people for the raids and never needs reserves.
Cons
-queues can be long at times(require higher attendance so that you can have shorter queues and a kick policy for those that can't hold that attendance)
-invites are random and harder to get(same fixes as above)
I am pretty sure people prefer no queues(less DKP and less raiding time) over a minor error that sets them maybe a week behind in loot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Greatdanes@May 20 2006, 09:14 AM
As the invite system works today it is a matter of who got the best internet connection and the lowers lag at moment the invite goes out so they can see the invite in the chat windows first and push the “enter” button. I myself have tried that and when I see the message it was to later already.
that is totally false..
if you are waiting for your class invites and youre totally 100% prepared then you will get in the raid.. lets talk about another example of myself.. i NeVeR missed an mc/bwl raid if i was online.. with the current/older/more older system.. and my normal ping is like 300ms..
if you missed it.. then it means you werent ready 100% and not entrely focused.. and yes there was a very high competition with the warr slots that time.. we were like 10 warrs trying to get in? (this was the time of rexangelus, thkdk etcetc)
so now pls lets all stop this pointless discussion, if you want the inv for bwl when there are not enough rg1 peeps, be ready stay ready and be focused for when/if the the rg2 spots become available, the ones who get in merit their dkp and no one should flame/comment about that cos that is absolutely Lame
thank you
I've read the posts multipe times, and after talking to deadlyspirit last night i seem to have more insight on the matter.
There is multiple problem with our current setup and DKP system, and what i just would like to point out *once again* is that WE ARE AWARE OF THE ISSUE.
Since this is a very technical issue and not easily solveable, just be aware thats ITS GOING TO TAKE TIME TO FIX IT
The Officers are going to have to take our time to find the right system we think is fair for all people in the guild, going forward with instances like AQ40 and Naxxramus
We value all input, since it makes us more capable to make the hard decisions so please dont stop discussing, but everybody try to keep it in an orderly fashion.
I have to disagree padding, there are minor problems with the system and there is no way you can make a system that will please everyone. The biggest problem is that the officers have tried pleasing everyone by changing the system multiple times and it has always worked for a month or so then someone finds a thing to complain about. The system now might be better then the old system but it causes more people to complain about it since there are more people in the guild.
There is no way you can create a fair invite system without having 40persons with 100% attendance.
A online registration is even more unfair then a standard first to whisper system since it requires you to be online at 2diffrent times, every spot will fill up within 5minutes and people will complain that they couldn't be online when the signups came up.
A rotation system will make those that loose there turn in a rotation system complain .
Seperating the raidgroups will just cause the same problem as the reason RG2 was created, to long queues.
The current system lets everyone raid with near to no queues and gives RG2 members a chance to get extra raids with some extra advantages, those advantages do NOT break the system and they do not ruin the raiding experience for others.
The key is for the officers to realise they can't please everyone and the current system doesn't have a problem it isn't flawless but it works and it works well
Like i said, system needs revising after we being two raid groups, and it WILL be revised
Thank you Padding. That is all we'd like to hear.
QuoteLike i said, system needs revising after we being two raid groups, and it WILL be revised
But;
I've read the first few posts in this topic, and one of the firsts posts is Padding stating the above, none the less, I see 4 pages of posts? - How come people? - They are aware of it, and are looking into it.
An officers day is a busy one. Have patience.
Quoteve read the first few posts in this topic, and one of the firsts posts is Padding stating the above, none the less, I see 4 pages of posts? - How come people? - They are aware of it, and are looking into it.
Rest is really "arguing" :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Sazgul@May 21 2006, 03:14 PM
I've read the first few posts in this topic, and one of the firsts posts is Padding stating the above, none the less, I see 4 pages of posts? - How come people? - They are aware of it, and are looking into it.
An officers day is a busy one. Have patience.
[post=128131]Quoted post[/post]
I believe that the officers only can benefit from seing the oppinions of the members, so discussions (or arguments, as Neff would say ;)) like this are very welcome imo :)