Apparently there are some ppl that feel they are put last on loot priority. Most of all this goes for hybrid classes like feral/balance druids, shadowpriests and retribution/protection paladins. We have usually put a priority on items to best fit the "pure" classes.
Just to show some disputed items I'll list a few. (I know there are loads more, but I can't mention them all)
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19019)
Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=17182)
Crown of Destruction (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18817)
Onslaught Girdle (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19137)
Obsidian Edged Blade (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18822)
Draconic Avenger (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19354)
Draconic Maul (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19358)
Cloak of Draconic Might (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19436)
Drake Talon Pauldrons (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19394)
Azuresong Mageblade (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=17103)
Wristguards of Stability (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19146)
Malfurion's Blessed Bulwark (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19405)
Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19389)
Taut Dragonhide Belt (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19396)
Most of these items could be used by either Rogue, Warrior, Hunter, Paladin or Druid.
Should we have priority? Should DKP decide? Throw me a bone here...
Well I have no problem loosing out on an item because someone has higher dkp and wants it. That is the way we have always done it.
However in the case of say, thunderfury which would be of most benefit to the warrior class and therefore be put to best use within the raid group for dps etc. Then maybe that class should should have first choice on bindings etc.
Wonder what people would think of a lock with thunderfury...hmm ;)
Before someone flames me I am purely thinking of getting maximum use out of an item to benefit the group as a whole. Just because you can use it, doesnt mean you should use it. That is not to say if no one wants an item then other classes cant bid/get etc.
Thunderfury is class restricted Hunter, Rogue, Warrior, Paladin id I'm not misstaken
As far as i can see anyone who can use one handed swords can use it.
Thunderfury Warrior priority and the rest DKP decides imo.
QuoteOriginally posted by StrontiumDog@Jun 23 2006, 12:18 AM
As far as i can see anyone who can use one handed swords can use it.
[post=133081]Quoted post[/post]
Vargen is right, it's restricted to the classes he mentioned.
Now to the point:
Thunderfury should be tank priority, not Warrior, but tank. Every dmg Warrior just like Rogues, Hunters and Pallies should stand back for the tanks, cause they benefit the most from it and with them the raid.
Similar rules should apply to the slow 2handers, everything above 3.2 speed should have Arms Warrior priotity, the discussion arose before with me and Richardi debating over Obsi Blade, in my opinion, it should be Arms Warr proirity, because an arms Warr will use it in every situation, while the Paladin will never use it in raids, because his role there is to heal / cleanse. In the hands of an Arms Warrior, the raid as a whole would benefit from it, because it would increase the over all dmg output of the group. Richardis argumentation faltered, in my opinion, when he stated Paladins should have the same rights on it as a Warrior, but a Hunter shouldnt, because they would only use it in some situations. Same applies to the Paladin, hence it should go to an arms Warr.
Daggers should have Rogue priority, other fast 1handers Rogue/Fury Warr priority, for the same reasons stated above, they make the most of it, and so it helps the whole raid.
OK, by now all the paladins/hunters should hate me, now for the feral druids :P :
all those agility/stamina/ap leather items should have Rogue priority, because a druid will never get close to a Rogue in terms of damage and should accept his role as a healer in a raid.
In my opinion, people should think about the character they picked and their role in raids and if a Paladin notices he actually wants to do damage or tank, go roll a Warrior, and a Druid who suddenly realises he wants to go dps, go roll Rogue, but please dont try to compensate your classes weaknesses by taking items from the classes they were made for.
Thunderfury isnt usefull for hunters.
we arnt a melee class and the agi and sta is to low.
QuoteOriginally posted by Myanmar@Jun 23 2006, 04:16 AM
In my opinion, people should think about the character they picked and their role in raids[post=133084]Quoted post[/post]
Whilst agreeing with you to a certain point, maybe it should be pointed out that many of us druids and paladins chose a hybrid class for a reason and not to heal all day long. I myself, like healing, even if, at times, it can get boring and stressing. If Blizzard had told me from the start that I would end up healing only in raids, I would have rolled a priest. Healing with little mana and a 3 second cast efficient heal is not easy.
Not everyone does raiding 100% of the time. Granted, the raid as a whole should get priority, but if the primary classes involved are already well equipped, shouldn't these people have a chance on other epic gear as well? After all, most of the good stuff can only be found in instances.
In my oppinion one should try to put as little restrictions on loot as possible - that is, perhas with exception of legendary items and some very few epics that might be highly pointed towards a single class.
The DKP system has been working out great for as long as we've used it, and I don't see any reason to change that. One could perhaps add a guideline saying something that it would be nice of you to pass an item to a class who can benefit from it 100%, but if you really want to spend the DKP on it, than that's your choice.
Perhaps it's easier to understand if we compare with another similar matter: say there are two people who wants e.g. a really good epic ring. For the one with the lowest DKP this will be a major upgrade from his low-level blue ring (and thus benefit the raid more), but for the one with the highest DKP it will only be a minor improvement from the epic ring he already has. Should the one with the biggest need have priority, or should DKP be what counts
I say the same as I said above: one could encourage the one with the highest DKP to do what is better for the raid as a whole, but in the end DKP will and should be what decides it.
I think we need to trust each members common cense :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Myanmar@Jun 23 2006, 02:16 AM
Thunderfury should be tank priority, not Warrior, but tank. Every dmg Warrior just like Rogues, Hunters and Pallies should stand back for the tanks, cause they benefit the most from it and with them the raid.
[post=133084]Quoted post[/post]
Most of what you said I agree but that quote above I must shake my head to. Thunderfury is good in the hand of a tank AND a dual wield warrior. You say it benefits tank the most well let me refresh most people's memories and show them the potential of a dual wield warrior when accompanied with this weapon:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...70892620&q=135k (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1330564878470892620&q=135k)
Now to everyone else out there..Its harsh to have your priorities at the bottom of the tree but think about the overall success of our raid :)
Expect Thunderfury(Tanks) and Hand of Ragnaros (Paladins) others should be DKP oriented.
:spam:
Priority on item's should only be applied to items that would benefit the Raid, items that would be used for other purposes should imo be DKP priority.
Luthor
What I would say:
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker - Warrior - Prot
Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros - Paladin - Retri
Crown of Destruction - Hunter
Onslaught Girdle - Warrior - Arms/Fury
Obsidian Edged Blade - Warrior - Arms/Fury
Draconic Avenger Warrior - Arms
Draconic Maul - Druid - Feral
Cloak of Draconic Might - Rogue
Drake Talon Pauldrons - Warrior - Arms/Fury
Azuresong Mageblade - Mage
Wristguards of Stability - Would benefit a Warrior better, unsure about this tho
Malfurion's Blessed Bulwark - Druid - Feral
Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads - Druid - Feral
Taut Dragonhide Belt - Rogue
QuoteOriginally posted by Keltor@Jun 23 2006, 09:58 AM
Most of what you said I agree but that quote above I must shake my head to. Thunderfury is good in the hand of a tank AND a dual wield warrior. You say it benefits tank the most well let me refresh most people's memories and show them the potential of a dual wield warrior when accompanied with this weapon:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...70892620&q=135k (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1330564878470892620&q=135k)
Now to everyone else out there..Its harsh to have your priorities at the bottom of the tree but think about the overall success of our raid :)
[post=133099]Quoted post[/post]
That warrior is insane! But as I can see, he is sooo buffed! Both Zandalar+Onyxia buff and all other potions availible. But yes, I see your point mate :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Mazii@Jun 23 2006, 11:04 AM
That warrior is insane! But as I can see, he is sooo buffed! Both Zandalar+Onyxia buff and all other potions availible. But yes, I see your point mate :)
[post=133119]Quoted post[/post]
and Windfury Totem:
"The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards. Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 315 extra melee attack power"
Yeh he has windfury but so does everyone else in the raid, not just him. He also says "the whole raid is pretty buffed up" so everyone is equally buffed. But he stills deal more than twice the damage than the person coming in 2nd. Why? Cause of the weap.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dajo@Jun 23 2006, 10:33 AM
What I would say:
Wristguards of Stability - Would benefit a Warrior better, unsure about this tho
[post=133114]Quoted post[/post]
They are leather ;)
On the subject though; It is true that the hybrids can never reach the amoubt of DPS as the classes they are "imitating", but I still think that should not exclude them from being able to play that aspect of their character if not in raids then outside raids.
QuoteBefore someone flames me I am purely thinking of getting maximum use out of an item to benefit the group as a whole. Just because you can use it, doesnt mean you should use it. That is not to say if no one wants an item then other classes cant bid/get etc.
The maximum use, but what is the maximum use
for instance a hunter got crown of destruction last night, but he already had the tier 2 helm as well
now from a talk with soulbringer i heard the crown might be better for pvp
but for the paladins who whisperd it would have gotten the same destination
so what is the most use, a hunter or a pally using it in PVP
i say the pally would make a bigger jump between items cos it sure as hell is better then a healing helm
or let me put it this way, what is better for the general good of the raid getting the warriors or hunters a 2nd uber item or perhaps a backup, or having paladins perhaps leaving the guild or slacking on attendance / healing / cleansing cos they never get anything cool ( yes for some of us it has come this far )
I haven't raided much with you guys (yesterday first time), but have done a couple of runs on horde side, and read certain things on Thott/Alla or forums about loot rules.
Some guilds use pure DKP, you got the DKP you get the item even if it's pretty much useless for your class (hunter with ToEP or TF for example).
That system ensures you get unhappy players in your guild and might cause lots of flames that will harm the guilds reputation (look at Hunter with TF in Knights of Aszune topic).
Most people use their mind a bit what class would benefit the most of the item, or even better, would benefit the raid the most.
A paladin can dps, but, even a warrior in blue/green gear with non-epic weapons can outdamage a pally. Giving a paladin an OEB for example his dps increases, but it quite minor, when an OEB given to a warrior (fury/arms) it will increase damage a lot.
However, how much I hate to see a good 2H (sword/axe) go to a pally, they do have some right for it. I mean, they got the DKP, did the runs and it can be used well for solo/pvp purposes.
Tank warriors can use the same weapon (let's take OEB for example) but their damage won't get near to that of a furry/arms warrior, so should a tank get less priority to an OEB just because it doesn't benefit the raid that much?
Sulfuron hammer, is a tricky one. Mace spec sucks for warriors, the DPS is nice but not uber great for a warrior (I think). A warrior will still outdamage a pally with it, but it's a hell of a good weapon for pally too. Maybe use the "dumb dkp" way for a weapon like that...I even think warriors will pass on the Eye drop because maces aren't realy uber.
Imo have class priorities for legendary items, for the rest use common sense. This is not thottbot.
Most classes can have alternative roles in a raid and should be able to get gear for filling that role from raids if they want. Pallies want big swords, priest want shadow dmg gear, druids want feral stuff etc.
And last but not least, not everything is about raiding. Some people actually want to be able to function outside the raid. Be it for grinding, pvp or whatever.
QuoteOriginally posted by sitha@Jun 23 2006, 05:14 PM
Most classes can have alternative roles in a raid and should be able to get gear for filling that role from raids if they want. Pallies want big swords, priest want shadow dmg gear, druids want feral stuff etc.[post=133176]Quoted post[/post]
I just want to continue a bit on this issue.
It has been said in some posts earlier in this thread that druids are expected to heal and paladins are expected to heal/clense in raids, and thus shouldn't get any priority over rogues/warriors when it comes to items that doesn't support that spesific role whatsoever. I will now talk with druids as example, since that is what I know the most about, but I guess much of the same also goes for paladins.
I'm a full out resto druid myself (5/0/46), and that I'm very happy about. Because of that I have never requested any loot that could be good for a feral druid that also a rogue would benefit greatly fromm (a bit low on DKP, so I need to save that for the gear I
really need ;)). However, there are other druids that also like to go feral (and have a very good feral build as well), and I can also picture a few situations where I have to go feral myself.
We actually had a pretty good example of this yesterday in MC: when the raid first started we only had two warriors, which meant that Vargen, Razie and myself had to go feral and tank those packs of dogs around Lucifron and Magmadar. Of course this spesific tanking job isn't particular hard, but that's not the point either. There was also another incident where I had to rush in and off-tank a giant due to a dead warrior and Vargen down as well.
My point here is that even though a druid's main role in a raid is healing, there can occur situations where you must enter another role (and this I guess goes for paladins as well), and for those situations it really helps if you have some gear to "back up" that role.
To wrap it up, I'd like to repeat what I stated in my first post: let's have as few loot restrictions as possible. Legendary items could get some priority to them (and perhaps also a very few epics that are highly directed at a specific class (with a specific build)), but other than that: leave it mostly up to each member's common cense and DKP :)
Perhaps we could just skip the whole discussion and jump to the conclusion
based on a very short chat with vargen, the paladin officer representing the class and a few replies here
we could just jump all the way true the discussion and get to
Paladins who want to do damage , Your ***** big time
QuoteOriginally posted by Marduk@Jun 23 2006, 05:46 PM
Perhaps we could just skip the whole discussion and jump to the conclusion
based on a very short chat with vargen, the paladin officer representing the class and a few replies here
we could just jump all the way true the discussion and get to
Paladins who want to do damage , Your ***** big time[post=133189]Quoted post[/post]
Aren't you jumping a bit too fast to conclusions here Marduk? I see different replies that suggest that there are both people wanting loot priority, and also those that doesn't want it at all - and ofc some also in the middle (I even saw Vargen talking something in that direction) :)
And about your talk with Vargen and the officers (and this goes to the Officers, and not you Marduk):If the officers ask for a discussion around a topic such as this, I would expect them to join in on that discussion a bit more actively that we have seen here (only Vargen that has briefly posted) before they come to a conclusion.
(If you haven't reached a conclusion yet, just take away this last part, it's just what I understood from Marduk's post :) sorry)
ThunderFury is the best Tank weapon in the game...
Djezus ppl dont post all that stuff in 1 day, its too hard for me to keep track of all that, most of you have a job, get to work dang it :P
But seriously i think that some loot restrictions should apply, like for legendarys, and as for myselfs i wouldnt mind where an item goes but i think ppl should aim for the stuff they can use properly..... allthough this is a hard one, and for the officers double so.
Say last nite we had a hunter and 2 paladins whisper for the crown:
A) the hunter gets it and the paladins are pissed off cause they cant ever take dps gear (allthough personably id rather have plate on a paladin, like onslaught)
B) the paladin gets it and the hunter gets pissed off cause paladins cant do dmg anyway so why use such a good item.
with this there is no right way of doing it... both ways ppl get pissed off at the ML or eachother.
ps: Gorion, that TF is best for a tank we allready figured out ages ago, but thanks for reminding us again and again and again and did i say again allready. Chances of us giving that to a hunter/rogue/paladin is next to non id recon.
well bastet.. lets sat that TF is my dream ;)
bdw for those ppl who said that fury warrs might use it too, please note that its crap for them... Why? cos they need +crit, +hit gear with loads of agi/..
According to blizzard for a rogue and a fury warrior the sword makes the highest dammage over a long fight, its just that its to goddang big and the stats are really no good at all for a rogue, heck thats before we even discuss the crafting fee (mats etc).
This maybe a bit cheesy, but if there is a bit of a dispute about which class wants a item..../roll.
At least its fair....
QuoteOriginally posted by StrontiumDog@Jun 23 2006, 05:50 PM
This maybe a bit cheesy, but if there is a bit of a dispute about which class wants a item..../roll.
At least its fair....
[post=133210]Quoted post[/post]
TBH the rolling system is a lot but not fair. Take ZG for example. Menedil hasnt got the hakkar heart thingy yet but he has been on a lot of raids so i would not call a rolling system fair.
Lunares
I am talking fair as in eveyone who rolls has an equal chance of winning, which in essence means that it is fair.
Just because you dont win an item by rolling does not mean that you did not have an even chance of winning it.
QuoteOriginally posted by StrontiumDog@Jun 23 2006, 06:08 PM
I am talking fair as in eveyone who rolls has an equal chance of winning, which in essence means that it is fair.
Just because you dont win an item by rolling does not mean that you did not have an even chance of winning it.
[post=133215]Quoted post[/post]
It is not fair in the sence that the person that wins the item will most likely not help the ones that didn't get the item.
Take for example warlocks that only go to ZG for the heart of hakkar. When they win the roll they will most likely not bother to help the rest get there.
The only 'fair' and equitable solution is that all loot is based on DKP.
Guys, we are losing sight of the fact that these weapons and items, yes are rare, but are not unique! The more we progress the more common they will become!
DKP is a sign of reward for effort contributed - this guild functions on that principle of good will, so please reward it - if a hunter wants thunderfuy then let him have it - if he has the most dkp then has certainly earned the right to have first refusal.
What I think you'll find happening is that most people will be reasonable - they pass on the item or not whisper for it. The odd one will, and that is their free choice. At some point you will whisper for one of those items, so be understanding.
That is all.
Hear hear :clap2:
Well said Lucian! You must teach me some day to write so short posts with so much content ;)
Btw, to those of you who think MS warriors are outdmging paladins THAT much, check this thread abit down, the longest reply.
kek (http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-warrior-en&T=172326&P=2)
QuoteOriginally posted by Ekzete@Jun 23 2006, 09:07 PM
Btw, to those of you who think MS warriors are outdmging paladins THAT much, check this thread abit down, the longest reply.
kek (http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-warrior-en&T=172326&P=2)
[post=133226]Quoted post[/post]
yes why do you think that warriors are always outdpsing the pally
and the priest that is trying will outheal a pally
becos we are a hybrid class? or becos we never get the best loot available
in a battle for priority the hybrid class always seems to loses here in sog it seems
at one side we lose from the "true healers" and at the other side from "true dps"
so how about you trow us a bone, or rather a item we can work with and that has a decent droprate.. rather then leftovers like we get now
so how about we reconsider a bit and keep on topic, if you want to discuss the fairness about DKP system start an other topic plx
I haven't had time to read all of the replies, but somehow, when I saw this thread and read a few of the replies, I immediately thought about my Crown of Destruction loot from MC last night.
Don't get me wrong, but am very glad that I got it, +FR and +AP compared to even my DS helm w/o FR, a good replacement when FR is needed, but imho, I did not rank this item as a hunter specific loot, even though it is mail gear.
I can imagine that the other stats, the sta, int and spi, are also very nice for some one like a pally and therefore I was truefully surprised that I got it (DKP wise).
Yes, I do think that class specific items should always go to that class but that we also need to think straight about items that are not too clear class specific and in that case DKP should always be the leading factor. Ofc, it will be difficult to determine when an item is class specific, but when in doubt, go with the DKP (imho).
Yes, in this case, I know I might miss out on some nice weapons or other stuff, since a lot of daggers/swords/rings can also be used by rogues, warriors besides hunters.
I guess, I just wanna say that I would not have complained if some other class had gotten the crown instead of me, and I just hope that we can sort this stuff out fairly, even though that might be an enormous difficult task.
Just my thoughts...
about nebuoh's reply
all i have to say
now you hear it from the other side of the story....
QuoteGuys, we are losing sight of the fact that these weapons and items, yes are rare, but are not unique! The more we progress the more common they will become!
I agree, but on the Thunderfury matter it should go to the tanks (prot :)) )Because as you've may have heard Righteous RG1 still misses their last binding, same with Danu.
A suggestion may be : What you can use, is what you get. But it should be up to each and every of the player, to decide if its "fair" for me to take an item thats not class restricted, if you think it benefits you and your raid alot/ the most, take it. If you think it may benefit a priest more, take it if you want it. Its up to you, and not to be a saint but in a dream world you'd think of the raid before you, but its up to every player:)
i dont really think there should be a discussion about Legendary items,
TF = warrior
Hand of raggy = Pally
how much can you argue about that fact, its clear..
There should be every discussion on Legendary items! They are bought using DKP, and DKP remains the currency of items. Until the link is broken, any discussion on the fairness of distribution is a discussion on the fairness of dkp.
Save your dkp, horde it, and when the item comes along you'll get it!
End it with the Thunderfury allraedy; Rexon and Nefertem have on half each.
I am not saying Pallys are screwed here as Marduk missunderstood so elegantly. I am merly raising the discussion to have a general idea which way the "wind" blows.
If the majority don't want the priority, then why should we carry on with it? Sure I as ML tend to look at what would benefit the raid in many situations, but at the moment we have the gear in the raid groups to allow for some "luxury", so why not bring it to the discussion forums.
QuoteThere should be every discussion on Legendary items! They are bought using DKP, and DKP remains the currency of items. Until the link is broken, any discussion on the fairness of distribution is a discussion on the fairness of dkp.
Save your dkp, horde it, and when the item comes along you'll get it!
if what padding said was correct here Legendary items are not only bought with dkp, you do spend dkp but its the officers who decide on who get the item.
at least thats what he said with the sulfuron discussion
and as far as my elegancy, sometimes you have to be "elegant" to get some attention around here to provoke a reaction and stimulate debeate :P
Quoteif what padding said was correct here Legendary items are not only bought with dkp
Thats at least what was suggested and used before for RG2 for example, so that should still be the case
The DKP system at the moment we are using only lets us get class armor items otherwise its only numbers on a website. Paladins and druids can benefit different type of loots like us agility+ defence +AP etc. DO we have to wait 2 or 4 months to get loot we want bcs the main classes should have first? If things will turns around main class system then some of us have to wait for months to get items.
For example Quick Strike Ring on a warrior should have equal right on loot vs a ret. pally and feral druids but while fury/arms got them we couldnt bcs of rouge&hunter priority.
Every item sould be considered as the equiped on person imo. The person who can equip it everytime whatever condition it is, should get item otherwise its greed for all classes. :boxing:
QuoteOriginally posted by Threbrilith@Jun 23 2006, 04:57 PM
If the officers ask for a discussion around a topic such as this, I would expect them to join in on that discussion a bit more actively that we have seen here (only Vargen that has briefly posted) before they come to a conclusion.
(If you haven't reached a conclusion yet, just take away this last part, it's just what I understood from Marduk's post :) sorry)
Quite. We haven't reached a conclusion. We have our discussion in the main Officer section and on TS once we have taken onboard *your* arguments, the views of everyone else, information that maybe only Officers have access to and then we make a decision in the best interests of the whole Guild. This may or may not mean that we get actively involved in a thread. The thread may have enough steam of its own, or it might need some guidance to mak sure particular angles are explored. We'll interject as required. The open thread is primarily here for *your* discussion and debate, not ours.
TL.
About the paladin issue. Marduk said that because you're a hybrid class then you're always but down on priority on items because other classes are better at certain things. Then why do I often see Paladins far up on healing meters with the Priests and Druids and usually above most? I also see no problem in distributing items healing wise because it has always been Cloth for Priest, Leather for Druid and Plate for Paladins and the Rings/Trinkets is the top DKP holder no matter what class it is. It has been the same with weapons. Highest DKP healer that wants it, gets it.
As for the Priority being higher on Warriors/Rogues/Hunters for DPS Swords etc. and also the DPS Plate gear being prioritized for Warriors. Well I see no problem with it and I don't get why you suddenly want to go DPS. I once saw the argument of Blizzard's class descriptions of a Paladin being a Hybrid class and not only healing. Well the same was for Druids and other classes have also definently gotten misguided class descriptions but I don't see anyone else complaining.
QuoteAs for the Priority being higher on Warriors/Rogues/Hunters for DPS Swords etc. and also the DPS Plate gear being prioritized for Warriors. Well I see no problem with it and I don't get why you suddenly want to go DPS. I once saw the argument of Blizzard's class descriptions of a Paladin being a Hybrid class and not only healing. Well the same was for Druids and other classes have also definently gotten misguided class descriptions but I don't see anyone else complaining.
well i do see our very own guild leader who is a feral druid and even goes kittycat on our nefrian attempts..
and i do see him snatching up leather for dps and tanking all over the place
and i always did dps more or less, just not in the 40man raid groups or in 20man if the healers can keep up
at least in the beginning, then the healers got used to having pally's help them out
as a matter of fact i chose pally cos it could heal and do dmg way at the beginning of wow, and with a few nice items i can finaly forfill this dream... only we cant seem to get any in here
Well I agree with you on the fact that you should be put equal to Prot spec warriors on DPS plate gear and weapons. However I do not think it fair if a Paladin should run off with f.ex. Askandi over a DPS specced Warrior. Everyone should be allowed to to take what gear they want, but not at the expense of those the items were "ment" for.
When you look at the hybrids, they change role all the time. If you look at the class sets for AQ40, the paladin set is probably one of the better Retri sets I would say, though I don't really know much about the paladin class. The druid set is mostly ment for Balance/Feral spec, not Resto. But the Priest set is what really different. It is probably some of the best shadow spec gear in the game at the moment. Jumping to Naxx, Paladin, Druid and Priest tier 3 sets are the best healing sets we have seen so far!
Druids and Paladins can take a lot of roles, and maybe that is what you want to see changed, I don't know. If all the paladins whent Prot/Retri, I know for sure we would be in trouble. As would we if the Druids whent feral/balance and the priests whent shadow. However we are not saying there is not room for any of the "rarer" hybrid specs in the raids, just don't all put the healer spec on the shelf at once. I myself changed back to resto when both Ug and Vore wanted to go more towards feral. Now that I'm pretty much the only feral druid in the raids, I am having some fun with it. I will go back to Resto, as it is the spec I love and know, but after being dissapointed again and again by the anchient flame himself, I wanted to try something different. Mostly a act of frustration, but also to get some of the pleasure of playing my main char back again.
As far as loot is concerned; maybe Bastet and Menedil would comment on what they think of the leather gear that I use and would like to use for feral?
My "wishlist":
Boots of the Shadow Flame (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19381)
Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19389)
Taut Dragonhide Belt (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19396)
Malfurion's Blessed Bulwark (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19405)
Dark Heart Pants (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=20627)
Wristguards of Stability (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19146)
Well my wishlist atm is limited to 1 Bloodfang Chestpiece, so for all i care you can take what ever leather you want vargen, but some other rogues might not agree there. Allthough i agree w/ the point that say seco getting an asscandy sword before dajo would also be a bit too much to swallow for me. That said its also a bit too much that paladins take ages to get DPS plate. Allthough id like to see some go thier way i think they should remember that for the general good of the raid that paladins should take some healing gear first while DPS warrior get dps kit, since they will be doing dps most of the time.
I really think Bloodfang is better then most of the gear I just mentioned, but it is the only melee oriented leather not classrestricted to Rogue.
Keep in mind that I only miss the chest and leggings from my tier 2 set though. I got my tier 2 before going for feral gear though.
I just have to get this off my chest, but I really do not understand why the Crown of Destruction was ranked as a hunter priority item (mail + AP?) and the Heartstriker bow, that dropped tonight in BWL, was given to a warrior instead of a hunter (me, in this case) and thus was rendered a DKP-loot item.
A bow/gun is a hunter's primary DPS weapon and that Heartstriker was and is way better than my current bow (and don't give me this that hunters have an epic bow quest, cause that is simply no the point of this issue). How can this (Heartstriker) have been considered as a non hunter priority weapon? Because of the AP? AP is beneficial to a hunter as well and the dmg output of this bow benefits hunters way more since we simply used it with every shot.
Just to make a long story short... I know its hard to make a balanced-out looting system when there is no class specifics mentioned on an item, but some common sense could save a lot of irritations...
Once again, my simple thoughts...
For the crown of destruction, I wasn't sure myself how to prioritize it, so I asked in officers and the majority ment Hunter pri. I will admit I didn't take in to consideration that the hunter might have tier 2 allready, which might have been a misstake.
As for the bow Heartstriker (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19350), yes it is good for a Hunter, but AP is used in every punch thrown by a Warrior or Rogue as well. The stats don't really have Hunter written all over it, so I made a call and choose not to prioritize it. It isn't more then 7 more AP then the Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18713), but it has however 1% less crit. Both bows have exactly the same DPS with a .3 difference in speed.
As for Paladins getting DPS plate gear; For the sake of raid benefit, you may get EQUAL priority on DPS gear as a non-dps spec Warrior. Warriors use the gear allmost 100% of raids, only switching if we need an extra tank. Protection Warriors on the other hand, don't reallly use it in raids, and imo should then be looked upon as equal priority as the Paladins. I can understand that Paladins want this gear, both for PvP and solo ability, which is the same reasons the "tanks" have.
Ill make a post on this tomorrow, look for it tomorrow eve :P
if paladin will get the same priority as a protection warrior, then for the sake of no endless discussion can we limit the dps warriors to a certain kind of spec, so we dont have the discussion of he isnt dps enough or i spend more talent points
and stick to those 2, i wouldnt really like to see warrior 1 and 2 be dps and after those get there cools they respec to protection and have warrior 3 and 4 step in with dps build and snatching everything with priority again
and as far as the paladins dont need dps plate at all side of this discussion cos they should be healing in the raid how about this, warriors wouldnt need dps plate either if they did what they were originaly designed for and would just take up a tank spec
but now to a posible solution to this problem
how about we not only whisper with the linked item if we want something but also the reason.
say both me and a hunter want the crown of destruction
we would both whisper [crown of desturction] reason: better damage in pvp and in solo grinding or something
then i would say the priority would be equal and let dkp sort it out
same of course goes for if 2 of the same class whisper for the same reason for an item
and if someone would whisper and give the reason gear improvement you could also link the item you want to improve
but now the tricky bit
say a paladin whispers on a uber sword, gives reason dps improvement and links a sword 10dps less and a load of stats less
and a warrior would whisper with the same reason and link a sword equal in dps but say only a worse atack power bonus by 4
now giving the item to the warrior wouldnt do very much for the raid if you ask me
but it will do a lot for the damage of the pally outside the raid
is it not fair to either give it to the pally or let dkp sort it out then?
or to give a example where this rule would have worked
nebouh whispers for [heartstiker] says gear improvement and links a bow far worse
opticalrush whispers [hearstriker] says gear improvement links a bow or gun to ( donno what opti has ) and says dps improvement while beeing protection specced
would be easy and give it to the hunter, since getting that rhok'delar isnt the most easy bow to get and he will probably use it for a long time
now of course this system will need to be worked out fully considering more then i just typed now but how about the basic idea of it, i think it would be more fair then just give warriors priority or equal rights on everything they want ( as it seems to look now) or just let dkp sort it all out cos the people who joined sog or started raiding say 3 months later cannot get there dkp up without serious hoarding and letting items they otherwise would have taken be DEed
~Marduk Dps paladin waiting to happen~
The expressions in the post are mine and mine alone, and be warned this is one hell of a long post. This post is made after reading the entire thread and commenting on that where needed.
As you all know there is currently a debate on dkp on items that could be used for more then one classes where a second class is often a hybrid (druid or paladin). Since there are items that can benefit more then one class this brings a problem to the officers. Since there is no clear cut list of items and classes that should get them its mostly a judgement call by the masterlooter. And since we are all human this means that every now and then an item might not go where it should go. Examples of this should be known to every player, either in PUG baron to our own 40 man raids to MC and BWL.
Everyone has to remember though that officers look mainly at what benefits the raid most. As an example, plate with int / spi will probably go to a paladin as priority, where plate with huge str and stam would go to warriors. Now, this might not be the best system there is. But on the otherhand, if a warrior that does DPS almost the whole raid (switching to tanking gear only when needed) and a paladin that heals/cleanses most of the raid both want a new sword that dropped for the first time, the warrior would get it, firstly cause he will use it in the raid most, and thus makes it eazyer for the raid to get past certain points that are based on dps most (vael for one). This might be a bit harsh on the paladin, but remember we only have 2 warriors that have a dps spec (Dajo, Umbra) and thus should get priority on dps loot.
Now this doesn’t mean that paladins should just accept that they wont get loot that will allow them to do dps, its just that they will have to wait until the dps warriors have the gear, and after that its up for graps. Now we appriciate that this takes time, and that the paladins are currently unhappy about it. But I would like to ask them to remember that without the dps warriors there might not even be loot to argue about.
If ppl cant accept this we might have to make a full list of all the loot and say that if your not spec a with char b, though luck, cause free for all DKP would mean that some items that could help the raid along greatly go places where they wont do much good. Sure it can mean that a warrior replaces a good 2hander with an even better 2hander, but look at it from the other side, if a paladin wanted the legplates of the fallen crusader (for me clearly a paladin item) and we said it would go to a warrior, wouldn’t you expect the paladin to be pissed as hell?
As for blizzard only making healing armor for hybrid classes, that stings, but for warriors it’s the same, all the armor sets are aimed at prot spec warriors, and thus creating the problem, since all the drops for dps are fairly rare drops and a lot of ppl want them.
I know from a lot off ppl that if they knew that blizzard would force their hybrid to spec one way to raid they would have gone for another class, but lately blizzard has been trying to change that, as of last patch druids don’t have to be 31 resto anymore to give the maximum benefit to a raid.
All of it boils down to having some common sence, there are a lot of items I myselfs would love to have had, the claw menedil has, the swords dalto have. But I passed on those to make sure that the raid had more then one good equipped rogue. So for ppl seeing something drop I URGE you to think about how much you will use it before you whisper. Cause somewhere in this thread I saw a hunter that whisperd for a head piece and then being surprised he acctualy got it, heck if its wanted badly enough you should be happy as hell you finaly got the item you want.
Now I would like to end this epic post with a quote from Lucian who summed it up best:
Quote Guys, we are losing sight of the fact that these weapons and items, yes are rare, but are not unique! The more we progress the more common they will become!
And I would like to invite ppl that have better ideas to post on this thread, but keep it clean and on topic.
PS:
Replys to some specifics that marduk raised:
Whisper linking the item you want to replace, this is highly subjective for players, and ML doesn’t know all gear for all classes and what would benefit class X the most. So they have to consult other officer and thus dragging looting on much longer and involving much more ppl then should be required.
As for limiting the number of warriors, we kinda did that already, dajo and umbra are dps, the rest isn’t and as far as I know other then opti does not aspire to be dps, and thus after dajo umbra I see no problem with a paladin getting an dps item (like secohan with onslaught girdle).
Once again note, that this post is made by me alone and that allthough made in my best ability, i might not be 100% accurate. Thanks for reading :P
QuoteOriginally posted by Marduk@Jun 26 2006, 06:56 AM
but now the tricky bit
say a paladin whispers on a uber sword, gives reason dps improvement and links a sword 10dps less and a load of stats less
and a warrior would whisper with the same reason and link a sword equal in dps but say only a worse atack power bonus by 4
now giving the item to the warrior wouldnt do very much for the raid if you ask me
but it will do a lot for the damage of the pally outside the raid
is it not fair to either give it to the pally or let dkp sort it out then?
or to give a example where this rule would have worked
nebouh whispers for [heartstiker] says gear improvement and links a bow far worse
opticalrush whispers [hearstriker] says gear improvement links a bow or gun to ( donno what opti has ) and says dps improvement while beeing protection specced
would be easy and give it to the hunter, since getting that rhok'delar isnt the most easy bow to get and he will probably use it for a long time
[post=133477]Quoted post[/post]
Marduk mentioned nice thoughts abouts loot problems which can prevent Master looter assign wrong person about specific Loots.
As many may know i am not whispering for every item i should get in order to pass people if there is someone who can play some specific roles better then me. But it does not help me to get rings etc. from later loots even :(
We are missing a point also that we changed some players time to time in RG1 that we had new rouges and new hunters and mage etc. Every player change resets SOME OF MY WISH LIST.
QuoteOriginally posted by Vargen@Jun 26 2006, 12:48 AM
As for the bow Heartstriker (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19350), yes it is good for a Hunter, but AP is used in every punch thrown by a Warrior or Rogue as well. The stats don't really have Hunter written all over it, so I made a call and choose not to prioritize it. It isn't more then 7 more AP then the Rhok'delar, Longbow of the Ancient Keepers (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18713), but it has however 1% less crit. Both bows have exactly the same DPS with a .3 difference in speed.
[post=133455]Quoted post[/post]
Yes compared to the Rhok'delar bow, but I have a Strikers Mark bow and then it does make a hell of a difference.
there are 10 better guns and bows for hunters thats why we had this discusion before because the hunter quest bow is better and further in BWL dragon drop that has a hunter priority
I passed the bow last time to a rogue.. because there are much better bows for hunters
http://thottbot.com/?i=44450 (http://thottbot.com/?i=44450) Now this is truely a hunter's weap > Heartstriker..also found in BWL.
It is better then what you have, but this is one of the ranged slot items in BWL that benefits a Rogue or a Warrior the most.
Striker's Mark
69 - 129 Damage Speed 2.50
(39.6 damage per second)
Requires Level 60
Equip: +22 Attack Power.
Equip: Improves your chance to hit by 1%.
Heartstriker
80 - 149 Damage Speed 2.60
(44.0 damage per second)
+9 Stamina
Requires Level 60
Equip: +24 Attack Power.
List of ranged weapons in BWL:
Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19361)
Dragonbreath Hand Cannon (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19368)
Heartstriker (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19350)
Would you say that all of these have Hunter priority? I would actually say that there is little use prioritizing everything. Sure it might be an upgrade, but it if it isn't better then your class quest item fom MC, then why should we prioritize it. Priests don't really get weapons, because Benediction is pretty damn good. Doesn't really matter if they have it or not. That is how it has allways been. Ofcorse as soon as something better then benediction comes along, it's a different matter.
Well this is the last thing I will mention on this matter.
1. Nowadays I dont have the freaking time to finish the hunter q for the bow, so the chance of me getting that one is almost nothing to zero.
2. Show me the 10 bows that are better than Heartstriker and where they drop.
3. Even when a bow drops that is ranked a hunter priority, I still have Tan, Rata, Shadow in front of me dkp-wise. The odds of a better hunter-prioritised bow dropping 4 times in a row would just be a miracle and if that happens, I will go to the Casino straight away and bet all my money.
4. I only mentioned that bows are a hunter's primary weapon, so if one drops and one of the hunters can improve on that, then yeah prioritise it to the hunter.
5. Nothing more. I will just wait and hope that the canon drops twice (since Soulb should get it first due to the +5 gun skill), gives me a better chance than getting a better bow.
Even so... have fun 2morrow in BWL and I'll read all of your replies next week when I get back from Madrid.
QuoteOriginally posted by Nebuoh@Jun 26 2006, 05:30 PM
Well this is the last thing I will mention on this matter.
1. Nowadays I dont have the freaking time to finish the hunter q for the bow, so the chance of me getting that one is almost nothing to zero.
2. Show me the 10 bows that are better than Heartstriker and where they drop.
3. Even when a bow drops that is ranked a hunter priority, I still have Tan, Rata, Shadow in front of me dkp-wise. The odds of a better hunter-prioritised bow dropping 4 times in a row would just be a miracle and if that happens, I will go to the Casino straight away and bet all my money.
4. I only mentioned that bows are a hunter's primary weapon, so if one drops and one of the hunters can improve on that, then yeah prioritise it to the hunter.
5. Nothing more. I will just wait and hope that the canon drops twice (since Soulb should get it first due to the +5 gun skill), gives me a better chance than getting a better bow.
Even so... have fun 2morrow in BWL and I'll read all of your replies next week when I get back from Madrid.
[post=133651]Quoted post[/post]
Tana has Rhok, Rata has that gun (? ) and SHadow wants the Crossbow, so you getting that Bow aint that far-fetched?
getting anything you WANT is far fetched.
ask vargen about his pants
ask seco about "his" sulfuran hand of ragnaros
ask anyone that really wants something.. either we dont down the boss or it doesnt drop off that boss
or even better it does drop off the boss and we can kill it but your away from the raid with a valid reason :P
currently working on a list from items all the paladins would like besides the obvious like judgement and lawbringer form mc and bwl
this so we can give the officers a clear picture on what loot is moving us
please do not see this as a list of demands, this was on vargens request mearly to get a clearer picture of the situation so we can work something out
I might not be the right example here to take since im mostly interested in healing stuff, but i'd just like to point out that i think its KEY for some people to get items they really want to be able to play their class they way they think it should be played.
Therefore i think its really important that we consider what people want from the instances, instead of "always" looking at whats good for the raid. Seriously i dont think its gonna have a major impact on the overall raid if we give a Paladin a dps mace before a warrior for example
Before you go all-out-attack on me, remember im talking in general here, not on specific items
Well Neb dont worry about me! IAm a dwarf i dont use Stick and string! ;)
A real dwarf use For Dwarfs (http://thottbot.com/?i=46198) :D
And iam only in for a change if the Musket from AQ drops!
Iam Xing my fingers that we have a all Hunterloot night in BWL so we all get what we deserve! :roflmao:
And dont feel bad about HunterQ I suck so much in the Kiting the freaking WS demon that iam close to being banned from WoW! :whistle:
Padding thought should be consider by whole raid then every class should re-consider their builds rouges (combat for huge dmg) mages(frost etc) warlocks(demonogly for less agro) druids(restro.) Priests(holy+disc.) hunters( markmanship) Paladins (holy) warriors(tank+arms)
On the other hand some of them of classes can make their own style of play for Raid+PvP etc. which isnt bad imo.
And i dont know a warrior who is willing to use Mace really. bcs as a paladin i am easly killin legendary warriors.
Edit: Warriors mainly getting uber weapons bcs they want to be dealy in PvP well dajo may want to be top dmg in raids only but warriors and paladins getting loots of dps because of PvP.