As most of you are aware, i was demoted one minute before the raid on BWL on sunday, due to my attendance in recent weeks. I had told officers a few weeks ago that i would be working weekends so i wouldnt be available for raiding on the sunday, but that i would be available to raid the tuesdays and the thursdays, which i did do. I spoke to bastet and teaelle about the decision and they told me that they had been thinking about the decision for a while and said that it was awkward that they couldnt tell me weeks or days in advance (god knows what stopped them from doing that). Im online almost every night and in the day at some points, so why couldnt they tell me and demote me then? If the decision hadnt been made by then (although they had been thinking about it for a while) why was it made one minute before the raid, a raid i was prepared for and waiting at BWL, why couldnt they just let me raid.
After having read through the raid rules i came across this...
"If at the end of the review period we see a class need for RG1 then we will ask members not meeting the requirements to either improve their attendance or step down to Defender rank to allow a more commited member to support RG1 properly."
I wasnt asked to improve my attendance (although i was trying to attend all the raids i could), and i wasnt 'asked' to step down as guardian to defender, i was just demoted, and ill say again, 1 minute before the raid.
Also....
"We do not wish to recruit heavily or at all to fill gaps, we believe we have enough members to meet our two raid groups' requirements, but we need the support of members to achieve these goals."
As i was demoted, two new rogues to the guild were invited to the raid (obviously not meaning any offence to those rogues, as they are nice people) but i feel i should have at least been given the chance to attend that raid, due to the fact of the lack of notice for my demotion.
Due to raids i have missed because i have been at work, i have missed out on a lot of dkp and items i have wanted, so ive tried to attend al the raids i can to try and save up for those items i wanted. The raid on sunday dropped 2 bloodfang items, both of which would have been mine, bought with the dkp ive been saving up over the months to get them.
As you will all see im rather annoyed by the way i was treated, and still dont see the reasoning behind it, and the reasons teaelle gave saying "it was an awkward time for us and it just had to be done."
I didnt want to leave SoG, it is the best guild i have been in and are good friends with everyone in there, differences aside. But due to my gear i am useless if not raiding, so i feel i had to leave to find another guild so i can make use of my character again, although not wanting to.
All i wanted to say people,
Thank you
Dalto
Omg Dalto that's a rly bad new !
i'm sorry that something like that happened and ofc to lose a great player and friend like you are
i wish u all the best :byesad:
Bugger.. Sad to see you leave mate.. But I suppose I can't do anything but wish you the best of luck and ask you to stay in touch.. :bye2:
Now there is always at least two sides of a story, but if what Dalto said here is mostly correct it doesn't sound like fair treatment...
First, as he said - the rules says he shall have one warning before getting kicked.
Secondly - if it's correct as he said that he had only missed out on sunday raids due to work, and in that way only been raiding Tuesdays and Thursdays, meanig 2/3, he was meating the attendance requirements as they were before the changes just recently.
But as I said - this is from hearing only that one side of the story - I hope to hear the other side here soon as well!
Anyhow: it's very sad to loos a longtime and good guildie. And it's also sad that he left so quick, cause I hope that things could have been worked out with some dialog between him and the officers (and yes, to you officers: I think he deserved a bit more than just a 2 minute warning before getting demoted!).
Bye Dalto - gonna miss you :byesad:
Damnit dalto! :( Not only a gnome but a decent lad too! :(
Gonna miss you and your large swords :(
kek
kek
As Bob said, there is another side to this. Both Bastet and I spent half an hour each yesterday explaining to Dalto how the demotion happened. Dalto was still upset by the demotion (which is understandable, nobody wants to lose their place in RG1), but suffice to say that Dalto's unilateral way of describing it is more than a little biaised.
-it was not planned to demote him a few minutes before the raid but then in the previous 72 hours the Officers had not noticed him online to tell him earlier and we felt a personal contact was far preferrable to a mail saying 'demoted'.
-the Officers have warned all members about attendance several times to try to prompt improvements. We have surveyed members, polled members to find out what we should do - it has been more than clear that we need high attendance for RG1 to succeed.
-we issued new attendance rules and asked people to advise us when they were going to be unable to meet the commitment required
-then we issued a final deadline on the forums.
-we listened to members telling us to sort the problem of attendance out and we did.
I am personally sad at both having to demote someone but also that Dalto felt it necessary to leave, but given that he had already told us in a personal discussion (which he did not refer to above) that he could not make Sundays (our BWL clearance night) it was fairly obvious what the conclusion was going to be. It's tough to be an RG1 member when you're not there for any of BWL.
For the record, Dalto attended 20% of BWL runs over the measured period and 33% of Molten Core runs, so his attendance problem was not just on Sunday nights!Dalto had a problem above with 'ask someone to step down', that's a nice way of saying 'you're no longer in RG1'. It is petty to try to say that this means we 'ask' but would not 'insist' as in many other places on the forums the intention of that statement is clear. Dalto failed ot meet even the old attendance standards let alone the new ones and RG1 was suffering as a direct result.
Quote from: Daltothe reasons teaelle gave saying "it was an awkward time for us and it just had to be done."
Not quite what was said in my very lengthy discussions with Dalto. I tried to be sympathetic and to explain the rationale for the decision, I even apologised several times for the fact we felt we had to take action, but Dalto was an angry person and not particularly rationale in his comments. I believe he has paraphrased me as I do not recall using the words he has quoted, but I did tell him that it was not an easy or pleasant decision for us to make. We do not enjoy demoting people, it's a tough decision to make, but the Officers are there to take those tough decisions for the benefit of the members. We don't guarantee to get it right 100% of the time, but we do guarantee to give it our best effort and our full attention. We work for the Guild's benefit to do this and spend many long hours out of raid time trying to make the Guild work in thebest interests of its members.
This may sound harsh, but I just tried to summarise some facts. We listened to members, we spoke to members, we reminded members, we gave members a timescale within which to act and then we took action. We did it for the Guild and for RG1's benefit.
TL.
i'm rly sorry to c Dalto no more in our great guild and all what happened but i would say GJ to the officers and all the s**t they takes for this :clap2:
Sounds fair enough what you just wrote there TL. I kind of figured there had to be a bit more to it...
One thing this (and similar matters) make me think about, is that people should really be carefull using that /gquit option, cause that's seldom a good way to fix stuff <_<
There should at least be a 24h delay to that, so you don't do stuff in a rash moment...
Why quit the guild? I mean it doesnt solve ****! I've never been outside Sog, for that matter:P
edit , i know people get frustrated, i have been too but i just log off :b
This is a tough one and it's easy to feel bad for both sides here, and I can understand the frustration in both cases.
It's a shame to lose Dalto, regardless of attendance, he was always up for helping out and always available if at all possible, and a fun character too :(
I am interested in knowing how attendance is worked out btw as the dkp site is clearly not right (i.e. i've attended nearly all BWL and a good proportion of MC but it says attendance is like 20% or something). is RG2 raids in there too?
The only thing I'd really say about this dispute is the measured period, it's all very well having deadlines, but that's a bit static when considering everyone's circumstances are different, also ,that's the first I've heard of any deadline, but then I don't get to check forum at home because i'm usually only just in time for the raid :$.
What I would appreciate, if it were me would be an initial post/pm saying 'we are considering demoting you, as you are nowhere near the required attendance, but we will watch over the next ' I know it would mean more work due to analysing people individually over different amounts of time and I appreciate it's probably not feasible, but a prior warning to specific people could be seen as more compassionate? maybe a new ctra should come out that lists attendance rankings :). My own is low, and I got a pm, and hopefully my extenuating circumstances will let me stay in RG1 (99% of all known 1st kills have to have an Umbra)
Basically, I've never known TL to do anything that is unfair or ignore information (just keep him supplied with beer) but in positions where people will inevitably throw **** at you, it can't hurt to take as much moral high ground as possible, If you think about it, any circumstances which reduce people's raiding time, will necessarily reduce time peple have to wade through the forum for posts on attendance and suchlike. Drop any precarious members an e-mail providing time to get up to standard and asking for any special circumstances and stating when the attendance will next be checked. If you keep telling them, then it can't be a surprise if they get demoted.
Remember:
forums are passive comms (don't rely on 100% informaiton transfer to all ppl)
e-mail is semi-active
msn is active
Quote from: UmbraI am interested in knowing how attendance is worked out btw as the dkp site is clearly not right (i.e. i've attended nearly all BWL and a good proportion of MC but it says attendance is like 20% or something). is RG2 raids in there too?
The Officers run a seperate Attendance site to record attendance at raids, including queue attendance. We do not use the DKP site as it does include both RG1 and RG2 raids and there are also some other oddities in there that make it mathematically inaccurate.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeafWe do not use the DKP site as it does include both RG1 and RG2 raids and there are also some other oddities in there that make it mathematically inaccurate.
Namely that on 1 BWL / AQ nite you get 5 raids attended, while clear nites are 10-15 raids, kinda fecks up the picture.
Ah, I thought so :) good stuff guys, however, would it not be prudent, if you want people's attendance to improve, to somehow show them the TRUE attendance data?
Otherwise it's like a police officer telling you to go faster then 43mph but not letting you have a speedo :S
that might be a good idea umbra. ill take it up w/ the other FM's tonight
Thanks m8, love ya
<3
S2 <---- look at it carefully and you can really see THE LOVE
hoy! HOw did you find that out alex? :O
Don't know if you're looking at this forum any more Dalto but if so, goodbye, ashame to see an oldie leave.
I think I'm going to side with the Officers here (shock, horror!), especially as RG2 could have done with another experienced member helping out. Demotion in that aspect is actually helpful and is often unappreciated.
Let's not forget that members should ideally be willing to put in more than they take out (like the Officers - who really do do alot behind the scenes for the guild which I appreciate, it's come on a long way since eary 2005).
Anyways, and it's my personal big failing - take it easy! Don't get wound up over silly purple things (and orange things - grats to Secohan!!!!). Oh for those who are going to accuse me of being a hypocrite, I'm not quite - my objection is that I'm bored to hell of MC lol.
Sheperdbook
Been behind ever since Irulan beat me to lvl42 :tongue: