Hi mates,
Well, since RG2 can clear now MC in just one night, my question is, what will be next??
Chances are Ony, AQ40, AQ20, ZG20, and BWL (naxx i assume is totally out of scope)
Ony is allways a nice and easy one, but will only last 30 min, 1 hour if we wipe. So what next??
We are a raiding group of 40 people, so i suggest we do instances for this size, splitting the group in 2 raidign group wouldnt be the best solution, we need to gather a lot of experience playing with each others in order to achive higher scrores in 40 man instances.
I will suggest to focus in BWL runs, since this is the next logical step next to MC.
Will be nice to MC clear on monday and on thursday Ony and BWL (or BWL and then Ony).
We need a lot of practice there, i know, Razorgore is not so gear dependant but will need a hell of a good tactic to get him down.
Of course this is only some kind of suggestion, i will be happy to raid anywhere, but i will prefer those two.
What do you think?? :biggrin:
Sao
I think that your marshals are perfectly capable of figureing out where to go now that your "Done" in MC :whistle:
Really Bastet? How nice since i just was suggesting something, although im not Marshall i think forums are for this objective, no?
Neither i said i was done in MC or something similar, i stated that RG2 can clear MC in one night, and was asking what to do in the next raid night, and placing my opinion, in a plain, easy to understand and constructing way.
Tell me, dear friend (beacuse i consider you a WoW friend, although i dont share some of the things you do, as i suppose happens with me) are you going to reply to any single post i do in this "tone of mighty marshall" of yours?
Well, you can censor this again if you want, you are in your right, nope? :narnar:
Sao
I see someone forgot to tell you the 2 rules of the (Field)Marshals :narnar:
- We are always right
- If we are not see rule 1.
As for the rest, i am sure if you are there monday that a funfilled excursion is on the agenda :happy:
As for your list Ony (done), AQ40 (not possible gear wise), AQ20 (done), ZG20(done), and BWL (possible) < doesnt leave much options :tongue:
Quote from: BastetI think that your marshals are perfectly capable of figureing out where to go now that your "Done" in MC :whistle:
Even though it's the marshals that make the final decision on where to go and what to do, I really think they will greatly benefit from getting some input on the rest of RG2's oppinions and thoughts.
And as Saori said, ain't that what the forums are for :g:
I would suggest RG2 do some more gearing up in MC so all are *very* good geared, and then set a date that they could try to start in BWL.
BWL should be the next instance to go to, since thats the way Blizzard intended it and the gear from MC/Onyxia really helps in BWL
Thats my personal suggestion as a member and player of SOG, but naturally its the leaders of RG2 to see when they think that RG2 is ready to take on a new challenge
Quote from: BastetI see someone forgot to tell you the 2 rules of the (Field)Marshals :narnar:
- We are always right
- If we are not see rule 1.
Oh man! i think i had never readed something more CONSTRUCTIVE in my whole live!!!!! Really! Astonishing! Superb! Outstanding!
Next time i see you in WoW i will fell to my knees and lick your boots, my almighty Field Marshall! :doh:
There is alot of things going on in RG2 at the moment, we do have to run in a new raid leader, we have some new members who will have to get some gear etc.
MC is not in my eys on farming stat just because we now(almost alone) have taken down Raggy 2 times in one night. For example we do next time have 3 new mage with us and they have to learn how to do the Sons(and ofc survive to that point) so we maybe not able to do it next time.
We still need some more speed in the runs and we need people to take some things more by them self. We need to learn people not to stop up when loot is going out etc. Overall we still have some performance tuning to do:smile:
But yes, Saori - BWL will be the natural place to go after MC and we will maybe stick our heads inside there next time we have the opportunity to do so and see how it's looks:biggrin:
But people do need to be ready for some wipers and not leaving because of that(it will cost you gold to go there m8's)
/agree GD
As planed, we where going BWL when att. was going more up and the summer hollydays are over. So that will be in the middle of august.
Beside that, yeah we are now going to train a new RL for RG2 Oneangel. This is allso said in another post.
And saori. I dont ever want you to **** ppl´s posts up. Bastet is totaly right on his post. FM is allways right and if not see point 1.
You will have to do as told or you are not helping the teamplay.
Well I agree with padding, as there is more then enought ph4t l3wt left @ MC but consider this Padd... I we manage to do do a full Clearance on thurstday then what will we be doing on mondays? Instance is not reset yet......Although I would love to go to MC again, I'm afraid blizz wouldn't allow me.....
My 2 copper will be.
1. Full MC clearance
2. If needed clear MC on mondays + OL (peeps still need helmets).
3. BWL
The 20 man raids are left on wednesday and friday, those are also none dkp orientated.
Quote from: DeadlyspiritAnd saori. I dont ever want you to **** ppl´s posts up. Bastet is totaly right on his post. FM is allways right and if not see point 1.
You will have to do as told or you are not helping the teamplay.
Hope that was meant as a joke Deadly, or at least some kind of irony... The only thing is that I don't see any smilies or other emoticons indicating so :g:
QuoteIf we manage to do do a full Clearance on thurstday then what will we be doing on mondays? Instance is not reset yet......Although I would love to go to MC again, I'm afraid blizz wouldn't allow me.....
Indeed... there is always Onyxia, but i dont see why you shouldnt just try to go to BWL and get the initial tries in there. The first fight isnt that much about gear, and takes a LOT of getting used to since the fight is very hard to control and understand how to do it
So if you do have monday's "off" go to BWL and get Razorgore down. That will take some time anyways. The next fight after that (Vaelstraez) is *really* gear dependant tho, so thats a totally other matter 8)
actualy i dunno what's RG2 gear level but imo u can try to have some BWL shots and start to aim for a full MC+OL clear
the path thro evil so far is MC - OL - BWL - AQ40 - Nax
Razorgore is pritty gear dependant padding, you need quite a lot of dps gear to be able to kill all the mages, and the tanks need a solid set of tanking kit for the ammount of abuse they will take :happy:
Yep, Paddies - i agree.
Lets nail MC on thursday (after Oneangel has gotten used to the job, and the new mages gotten a gear-buff) and then whoop Ony monday and proceed to BWL and spend our hard earned gold on Razor!
That sounds like a sweet plan - we keep buffing our gear on MC and Ony and pratice our wipeing on Razor.
QuoteRazorgore is pritty gear dependant padding, you need quite a lot of dps gear to be able to kill all the mages
Maybe so, but the hard part about this fight is getting people to understand the fight with the many mobs, and getting a dude to learn the orb-controller role. So i still feel they can work on learning the fight, allthough they maybe cant pin it until later.
this boss is a big step for players, MC bosses r nothing hard to unertund and not a real team work thing, here if only one do a misstake it's almost a wipe, last sunday we wiped on Razor after a lock kept fearing kins and on vael cuz a rogue did not vanished after MT blown up
Well - if it teamwork that is required - i cant see any problem in trying. If we wipe we wipe, but hopefully we will learn from our mistakes, and next time last a bit longer - until everyone knows their role.
IMHO - once we have a full night for it - lets wipe. :)
Quote from: DonnieKingoWell - if it teamwork that is required - i cant see any problem in trying. If we wipe we wipe, but hopefully we will learn from our mistakes, and next time last a bit longer - until everyone knows their role.
IMHO - once we have a full night for it - lets wipe. :)
they key to learn how to do this fight is to don't have ppl afraid of wipes as we did (RG1)
That's the spirit ppl needs to go further into instances
this is the face u should have when u try a new boss :yell:
and another thing for the BWL step, now that RG2 have a new RL u need to spend a bit more in MC-OL to help him to improve his leading skills
Imo if you have a free raid day go try BWL. Half the Razorgore fight is understanding how it works and getting used to it. And not going into panic mode when you are swarmed with a gazillion mobs.
It'd be best to just try and try razorgore, if your lucky you'll actually get alot attendance after 1st day of wipes ;) Splitting you up to 20 man will still leave 20 ppl that your not tha familiar with ;b
Quote from: Asheerathis boss is a big step for players, MC bosses r nothing hard to unertund and not a real team work thing, here if only one do a misstake it's almost a wipe, last sunday we wiped on Razor after a lock kept fearing kins and on vael cuz a rogue did not vanished after MT blown up
Uuuuhm Asheera the other problem at Vael last sunday was that 4 of the 6 tanks were dead before Ragnarh blew up :whistle: :D!
No offence healers we been through this before :P
But yeah, Saori, Bastet can be abit whining and have a wrong attitude sometimes imo, but in this topic he been nothing but right, however as more people stated, if you guys clear MC on thursday, I would say Viva La Blackwing Lair on Monday, lot of you guys have experience there and I will be only a small matter of time till the orb controller knows what to do, and the kitters got it right, and then its all piece of cake. ^^
Quote from: Deadlyspirit/agree GD
And saori. I dont ever want you to **** ppl´s posts up. Bastet is totaly right on his post. FM is allways right and if not see point 1.
You will have to do as told or you are not helping the teamplay.
:blink: If this is ironic its ok. If this is serious: i dont **** ppl's post, i just say what i think, and if what i think is that Bastet isnt constructive telling me "field marshalls are allways correct" then i state it.
If you dont like it you can call dear Bastet so he can censor again....
Sao
Quote from: DajoUuuuhm Asheera the other problem at Vael last sunday was that 4 of the 6 tanks were dead before Ragnarh blew up :whistle: :D!
No offence healers we been through this before :P
No offence warriors, but it would perhaps helped if some of you had a bit more than 50FR :norty:
Not saying this to be grumpy Dajo (and I know you have at least a bit more FR than that :tongue:), but it was just a very good situation to make an example the other way around as well, just to perhaps make it a bit easier to see why that kind of "criticism" don't really help :smile:
Well let's first see how we manage with new RL and with new people then we go for BWL...
Personally I wouldn't mind get wiped that's part of the game... Running in and getting through BWL right away isn't my type of having fun. People shouldn't be concerned about repair bills....that was what happend @ Ossirian for instance. I realy don't understand it when people passing on a boss because it will give a repair bill...so what....it's not that you need to start all over..
On the other hand I do know that there are people that pass on a boss after trying to down him for 4 nights..
So like mentioned earlier....WTB BWL wipe. And in case we winn ph4t l3wt w8ing 4 us. :flirty:
lets do naxx
/agree Keltor!
Quotelets do naxx
/agree Keltor!
Talk about places where you hope you are kidding. We have evaluated that we in RG1 is not geared to do Naxx at this point, so i dont really think that RG2 is either :flirty:
It was clearly a joke, Pad :P
hope i dont get flamed for this, but seeing that we are now able to do MC in 1 night, and i actually think most of us are good on gear already, i think we should consider BWL for the 2nd raid night. I'm not just basing my opinion on desires and random halucinations, but on the fact that when i was in Shadow Council and we took down Razorgore we didnt have as good gear as RG2 has now. And as more people have stated already, lets go wipe and learn :)
My 2 cents.
RG2 needs to be on a farming status for MC, and are we there yet - No.
We did it a handfull of times. Time for BWL will come, but RG2 has to settle after the attendance req, new Marshalls, new CL, and new members. When this has settled we can look at another instance.
- That prob. beeing BWL.
We got new members that needs to be geared up, and people still needs gear from MC.
No wanting to put any time horizon on it, it depends on a lot of things.
And tanx for the input, but we are on it, dont worry. :smile:
Lets hear from RG1, when did you start BWL. (gearwise and so forth)?
About now, we had 3 days, so there where a few runs into BWL, but we had trouble with gear (and attendance, ppl dont seam to like expensive nights <_< ) and it took us a few months to get to a first kill on razor. After that you can make some better progress :happy: , its a tad eazyer, allthough vael is expensive to learn, since fights only last 5 sec-3 min (yes you can whipe there in 5 sec, we did :tongue: )
actualy u had the RL change so it will take a little time before starting it, i'm not talking of months but maybe a pair of week could be taken
I think we can try and wipe razor! it will be a nice exprience to team up and learn! in this first stage we are going to wipe a lot, have or not the sufficient gear, so, if we have some spare time between raids, why dont we try this? will be nice! :laugh:
SAo
Quote from: SazgulMy 2 cents.
RG2 needs to be on a farming status for MC, and are we there yet - No.
We did it a handfull of times. Time for BWL will come, but RG2 has to settle after the attendance req, new Marshalls, new CL, and new members. When this has settled we can look at another instance.
- That prob. beeing BWL.
We got new members that needs to be geared up, and people still needs gear from MC.
No wanting to put any time horizon on it, it depends on a lot of things.
And tanx for the input, but we are on it, dont worry. :smile:
Lets hear from RG1, when did you start BWL. (gearwise and so forth)?
I can't see why you, and several others seem to be afraid (or what it is) to try BWL? If we do MC in one night, do Onyxia at the start at our second raid night, and got 4-5 hours to spare; should we just go to bed or sit around and scratch our behinds (cause without going to BWL, that's really our options)? It's not like we're going to lose anything. Ok, we get a phat repair bill, but so what? We can't learn it if we don't try it, and when we have the time, I can't see why not. Many of us probably don't have the gear needed yet, but that doesn't mean we can't pick up a few good pointers on what to do and what we at all cost should avoid.
How about this: We hopefully clear MC tonight. We then do Onyxia monday night, and after Onyxia, we do a vote if people want to go and try out BWL for size. If the majority wants, we try it, if not, we drop it and wait.
Jemeny, you have to think about the fact that we have atleast 5 new members joining tonight, furthermore we have a whole new Raidleader that needs to learn alot of things.
Let's hope we will do a full clearence tonight, but I'm not counting on it, tho it would be very nice.
The Marshals arent afraid to get a big repair bill, thats for sure, we just need everybody to be ready and up-to-date with tactics ect. So EVERYBODY please read http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=12454 (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=12454) . It would help us alot if everybody knew the tactics the first night we are going there.
Indeed, lets see how things go tonight with the new raid leader and members. But if there is enough spare time on monday, we might as well check BWL out; it can't harm to try, wipes are guarantied to happen anyway. Reading and understanding the tactics is one thing, experience another. I think most people will learn more from physicly participating in the fight.
Anyway, that's my opinion, in the end the dissicion up to the raidleader(s) of course.
I forgot to mencion our MT1 is away for tonight, and others are too.
Trying will at least give a pointer as to how far away we are from actually making any serious tries to kick BWL's mighty butt.
We are not afraid of doing BWL, by no means. But as stated we have new RL, new members, and are not yet so HC in MC as everyone thinks.
But as Mazii stated, EVERYONE read tactics, and when everyone in RG2 knows the tacts for Razor fight, then we are close to BWL.
Hi,
After last nights experince i dont think we stand a chance in hell to do Razor - but hey, that shoulndt keep us from learning.
Im not quite sure what went wrong yesterday, we had 3 or 4 wipes, but we still managed to get to and clear Golemag.
As far as i see it, it tells me two things - if we want to - we can deal quite a lot of damage - but also that we are need to focus ALOT more to cut it. We shouldnt have to wipe on trashmobs and Sulfuron is quite easy - if just everyone is awake during the fight ;)
But im all up for spending some gold on Razor-repairs - no doubt about that.
Quote from: DonnieKingoWe shouldnt have to wipe on trashmobs and Sulfuron is quite easy
well also RG1 wiped here, the bug is rly tought ! and about focus, well ask to RG1 members about yesterday raids :narnar:
Rg1 needs to work on raid focus in OL/MC
Rg2 needs to work on general raid focus
and raid focus beeing everything from coming with enough reagents and repaired, to doing what raidlead stays without delay, repairing at field repairbots, buffing without serious promting, and anything else assosiated w/ 40 man raids.
Quote from: BastetRg2 needs to work on general raid focus
and raid focus beeing everything from coming with enough reagents and repaired, to doing what raidlead stays without delay, repairing at field repairbots, buffing without serious promting, and anything else assosiated w/ 40 man raids.
I only raided with RG2 for two days and I don't want to sound negative but I couldn't agree more.
There are people not listening to the RL, dogs not being looted..., these things are so simple and obvious.
If we get everyone to pay attention it would be a major leap forwards.
But untill that time arrives, BWL will be impossible I'm afraid.
Quote from: SandrionI only raided with RG2 for two days and I don't want to sound negative but I couldn't agree more.
There are people not listening to the RL, dogs not being looted..., these things are so simple and obvious.
If we get everyone to pay attention it would be a major leap forwards.
But untill that time arrives, BWL will be impossible I'm afraid.
Agree - and agree Bastet.
We are not going to BWL before these basic's is working. :devil:
It's as simple as that. We were doing great progress but yesterday was a step backwards, so lets see how the next few runs goes - If we do great, BWL tries might not be that far off :smile:
Of course we had a few hickups, but most of the reason for the setback yesterday can be put down to having to "break in" our new RL and a few newish members. All in all, I think we did good. Don't think it'll be too long till we're back on track, and downs Raggy in one night.
I wasn't referring to yesterday. Yes, we didn't clear MC in one night, but that is understandable under the curcumstances. We will no doubt be back were we where in a couple of weeks, after the new members and raidleader get more experienced.
I was there on Monday as well and the exact same 'problems' occured.
RG2 needs a steady group of people showing up......and some listening skills. As I know for myself when I started raiding with SoG I was so focus doing the best I can I wasn't looking at chats because I was to pre-occupied....the experience taught me to do more now.....
RG2 needs MC runs anyway for good epic items....
See you all on monday, and OneAngel I'm there to hook up with you.
Imo you should base it on the time you have left, aim high on Thursday and try and clear MC fast, if you actually manage it you could try doing OL after that but that will probably take abit of time before you're able to do it.
Then on Monday you'll do what's left, then go to BWL and start learning. It's pointless to call early just because you don't want to go somewhere yet, try to go on and learn as much of the encounters as possible. :tongue:
Heya all.
I think most of you know my sentiments about this whole saga. But for the duty of this thread I should go over a few points. So here are my thoughts:
RG2 does need to improve, but we should look at how RG1 initially improved (I was there, so I don't need a patronising lecture), now we do have the ability to clear MC in one night (this is a fact) we should be trying our hands at something else the other night and gaining more experience in working as a group. RG2 needs to **** its pants a few times and have a few wipes too, it's all part of the learning process.
Now I don't care if this is BWL, AQ (20 or 40), ZG, OL or if we're just laughing about - Nax, but I think the other night shouldn't be MC (which is a stupid waste of time - especially as we can't train ppl to loot dawgs the 2nd night as the dawgs won't be there). I personally think we should do OL and then AQ afterwards on the 2nd night, then ppl have the choice whether to stick around or dash off if necessary, it also compensates for the fact that RG2 members can't do AQ on Mondays (I have a grudge about this BIG time, atleast prioritise RG2 members on Saturday evenings).
Also going back to how we trained ppl in the beginning I think we need to start kicking idiots every once so often (say anyone who persistently over aggros etc), done once or twice people will quickly learn (most of the wipes were due to stupid aggro, only 1 was a bad pull - I wanted to scream as I saw Pax surge forward lol). Leaders need to be more authorative in the raid too, though they should be somewhat realistic (moaning at me because I can't cleanse more than 3 groups (which I did do) as I had 1 of my party members not running away when they were the bomb at Baron Geddon was a tad unfair (I had to heal up myself and group too), especially as nothing at all was said to the 'bomber' - well save me reminding them that it'd be a good idea to run away next time).
Also there should be emphasis on members getting equipment ready for those other instances, though some are intelligent (like me! *ego moment* - bought my frost rings donkeys' years ago, prob get to Nax in about the same time lol). I've heard nothing of ppl suggesting to RG2 members that they get shadow equipment for BWL (it might be a few months away - but it does give plenty of time for us to collect non-raid items).
I am really vvvvvv tired of the MC only diet (I've spent 170hrs in there), also I'm a little tired of these authorative answers outside raids, I do genuinely wish to help out but I feel totally cut off as if I'm some little child in Africa being favoured by Gift Aid :P So we need to get raid members more involved (I learnt half of my skills having bets with other RG1 members on what would and wouldn't work).
OR if you want to get truly serious, we do this properly, have a briefing session at the start and go through what we need to do and then have a debriefing session at the end (leader says what he likes, no other discussions - these can be gone through after raid in a chat channel seperate to guild).
Anyways pls avoid flaming me, I'll probably only *antagonise* you back! :P
Sheperdbook
The Holy Pally who's more bored than Ragnaros is of MC
QuoteOriginally Posted by Sheperdbook:
I am really vvvvvv tired of the MC only diet (I've spent 170hrs in there),
RG2 has max being there 80-85 hour in the last 18 runs and you have only participant in 2 of these raids.
Maybe you have done MC elsewhere but that RG2 can't benfit of that, so you maybe need to get you attendance in RG2 up first.
A good team needs all the players to be there!!!!
QuoteOriginally Posted by Knabbel:
RG2 needs a steady group of people showing up
Jep we do and that's not happing at the moment - we do have about 20-25 people with high attendance, 10-15 with low attendance and must use soldier everytime - that's not there way to make a steady raidgroup.
As the situation is in RG2 atm, we will not be able to raid BWL, AQ40 or instance like this before we get better attendance, gear, general raid focus ect.
As Marshal's we can't do anything about this - only encourage people to come online on raid evenings and participant in our raids.
And when you do, listen to the raidleader, listen to you classleader, do as told and do you best.
This is just like a football team, we need all the player to come to training to become a good team and to could make a promotion to a higher division. Without practice no progress!!
Quote from: GreatdanesRG2 has max being there 80-85 hour in the last 18 runs and you have only participant in 2 of these raids.
Maybe you have done MC elsewhere but that RG2 can't benfit of that, so you maybe need to get you attendance in RG2 up first.
A good team needs all the players to be there!!!
He was raiding long before there was a RG2, and btw shep, most of us officers did over 350 hours of MC now :tongue: so consider yourselfs lucky
Hehe Bastet I know, I did go through the bother of checking that up :happy:
The main thing that I think RG2 needs though is some diversity in it's diet!
And between you and me Bastet not everyone in RG1 is an Officer who has done 350hrs lol. Though for the books I ain't disputing the fact that I'm in RG2 these days, I fully understand why and agree with the reasons.
It's just I really really want to do something other than MC!! :taz:
Sheperdbook
The Old Timer who plays a few weeks every 3 months :tongue:
I had another little idea, as we've got new people constantly joing RG2 (or atleast it so seems) I'd like to suggest making an info pack containing some reasonably light but informative reading on raiding in MC which can be e-mailed out to them (navigating the forums the first few times and learning what's where can take a little while, so I think this would be a good idea seeing we now have some expertise). If the Raid Leaders have a spare 10mins they could even compile their top 10 tips for each class 8).
We could also compile a list of items that members could get without having to set foot in a 40 man instance but that would be useful nonetheless.
Oh and Greatdanes for the books, I've been to quite a few more than 2 RG2 raids, (I was around helping when it was first setup, strange really I'm always around for the setting up stages but never for the farming stages).
Oh I'd like to discuss an issue regarding promotions from RG2 to RG1 with an Officer (RG2 can't handle RG1 pilfering all it's good raiders in the long run :tongue:).
Sheperdbook
Let's make RG2 a better place for all!
To Sheperdbook: We have only monitoring the last 18 raids and there you name only occurrence twice that's in my opinion not many times.
Hey, cool down :happy:.
I got an e-mail asking me show up, so I did, I really don't see the problem. Anyway let's draw a line under this, it's really very silly.
Sheperdbook
Quote from: saoriOh man! i think i had never readed something more CONSTRUCTIVE in my whole live!!!!! Really! Astonishing! Superb! Outstanding!
Next time i see you in WoW i will fell to my knees and lick your boots, my almighty Field Marshall! :doh:
shut up :learn: :narnar:
Ur suposed to fall on ur knees for me, or i'll cut uhm in 2 with my daggers :norty:
Hey Shep,
Just to give you my opinion of what to do on 2. raidnight when we clear MC everytime on thursdays!
Ofc. we cannot sit around doing nothing mondays, and therefore Marshals will discuss what to do on the other night when we have cleared MC. Ofc OL will be obvious to do because great headpieces and its quick and after that well see what we are going to do. So dont you worry we will go further than MC, but we need steady att. to go into BWL, and ppl are after the new att. rules req. to show up and support, and this will lead us to Razorgore.
So dont you worry Shep, we will give you more than MC :D
Sorry for writing a really long post that may have confused some, but it was never my opinion to go into BWL just yet, what I suggested was something along the lines of OL followed by a 20 man instance (2 groups if necessary) on the other night. I'm an oldie so this suits me very nicely as I haven't really done much ZG or AQ, obviously the opinions of others will need to be guaged but it's a suggestion if nothing else.
My suggestions concerning BWL was that it would be a great idea if we could put together a list of items that RG2 members could collect in the meantime that would be useful in BWL :smile:. As from what I've been reading the current eta of BWL for RG2 is 2 months time, so now is a good time to get equipment ready :happy:.
Oh and cheers Siff for the last few days, it's great to have someone who I can regularly group up with :biggrin:.
Sheperdbook
Author of long and confusing posts