http://www.wow-europe.com/en/burningcrusade/townhall/classcombo.html
Cool :woot2:
Many of the things that made me roll a druid as my first character, I also find with the shamans. Started a tauren shaman on a PvP server once, but never got it further than lvl 13, so looking forward to try this on the alliance side :)
yeah, ime making one too :D
also looking foward to lvl 60 shamans in raids :D mana tide totem ftw!
hmmm, that might give some issues squeezing them into a 40 man raid though (nice and eazy now w/ 5 of each class)
But, ill make one too :happy:
I think it is lame. I like the size 40 man raid. and if you get 9 classes it can not be balanced.
lame? no.. more challenging.. yes..
mana users will just love shamans, mana tide totem..hmm.. can you apply windfury on a friends weapon too?
No, only on yourself.
But what will suck is, who will get dropped out, when the shamans need space too? And we just got another class on the loottable, what happens if there isnt any shaman , and a tier 2 BP drops f.ex? DE!
That and they totally raped the lore.
Hmm looks like half of the alliance will be making Shaman's then....:lmfao:
well leveling up to 70 might take a long while, allthough leveling an entire raid group from 60-70 might take a while too... so i wouldnt worry about it too much
Quote from: Gorionhmm.. can you apply windfury on a friends weapon too?
No, but they do have a windfury totem :norty: .
It will be fun having some along with raids. Because we will get more 'healing power' in the raids (four out of nine classes that can heal), it might become more interessing to have some off builds along; since having a raid filled with 40-50% healers doesn't make sense at all :tongue: .
Btw, this change was made to enable cross faction transfers, too help balance the server population. (silently announced @ BlizzCon last year).
Quote from: Bastetwell leveling up to 70 might take a long while, allthough leveling an entire raid group from 60-70 might take a while too... so i wouldnt worry about it too much
Well we should start hoarding Tribal troll neckleases (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=4531) then; for the repeatable quest. 450xp per 5, if you can get enough you won't even have to kill a mob to get to 70 :narnar: .
Apart from the 1000's to get to the level required to turn them in <_<
Pfffft, any shammies are likely to be alts of existing players by the time we get to the expansion thus no overcrowding issues will be caused that don't already exist.
The fact that 40 doesn't divide by 9 to an integer, well, that's just unfortunate.
Not too sure about the whole thing though, if anything it reduces the challenge as there'll be more holes filled up in the talents area. Makes me think that there is a second reason behind all of this (apart from the whiners who can't bear to have a character on the other side on a server). I think the later instances of Outland will be requiring Shammies/Pallies (pending which side of the server) to balance out the raid groups enough to succeed.
Anyways I'll try and get a Dranei Shammy upto Lvl60 if I get the time, I quite like shammies.
Shep
There is some word that several encounters (maybe not the ones directly in the first release) will need either a paladin, or a shaman, like broodlords place needs a few rogues for suppresion
Quote from: Gorionmana users will just love shamans, mana tide totem..hmm.. can you apply windfury on a friends weapon too?
Yes, you can. It's a totem you get at around level 30/35ish (I can't recall exactly when I got it). It uses the air totem slot, and applies Windfury Weapon to everyone within your party (not sure how that works for raids and raidgroups) within the totem radius (20 yds standard, 30 if you have the improved totems talent). You can also do the same with the Flame bonus on weapons that Shamans can do. I'm not sure if you get it for Frost or Rockbiter at a later level, as my Shaman is only lvl 38.
Quote from: SandrionBtw, this change was made to enable cross faction transfers, too help balance the server population. (silently announced @ BlizzCon last year).
Cross *faction* transfers? As in, like, I could have my Tauren Shaman on the Alliance side? How does that work :blink:
This is one of the lamest things they could do. The Paladin and Shamans were factions only and by now bending their lore so that they can get away with a new class by doing nearly nothing. Great so we got two new skins for the expansion and you can play every class on one side... *sigh*
I was hoping for an all new class but I guess Blizz wont do one tiny more bit of effort than needed...
Quote from: Carr0tCross *faction* transfers? As in, like, I could have my Tauren Shaman on the Alliance side? How does that work :blink:
Yep, your tauren shaman will be converted into a dreanei shaman then, since there are the only alliance race that has shamans. One of the Blizzard devs mentioned they were looking into these kind of transfers to help balance the server population. No official announcement has been made yet, so I don't know the specifics.
How do they think this will help faction balancing though? Unless it's enforced, which would cause a *hell* of a lot of people to leave WoW. I mean, most of the people playing Alliance are playing Alliance because that is the side they want to be on, and the one that has all their friends on, rather than specifically because they want to play Paladins, so how does Blizzard think this will sort the faction balance? I can't see whole guilds crossing faction just to help sort out the balancing issue. I mean, how many of you Pallys in SoG would want to transfer and end up as a pansy Blood Elf? :narnar:
It will help, but to what extend is uncertain. I don't think many people in guilds will cross over. PvP guilds, maybe. They also didn't want people on the alliance side to level a shammy too level 60 when the expansion comes out (although I doubt many shammies that are in raid guilds will cross over).
I also found the interview with Rob Pardo from the BlizzCon again, in which he states that they are 'looking in to it' (between 18min and 20min).
URL: http://www.worldofwar.net/files/files.php?temp_view=files.php&game=&id=137 (http://www.worldofwar.net/files/files.php?temp_view=files.php&game=&id=137)
Mirror: http://www.gamona.de/download/detail/id-blizzcon_2005_rob_pardo_interview_76906.htm (http://www.gamona.de/download/detail/id-blizzcon_2005_rob_pardo_interview_76906.htm)
Also on WoWWiki it's stated as 'Confirmed Information': http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft:_The_Burning_Crusade#Faction-Class_Crossovers (http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft:_The_Burning_Crusade#Faction-Class_Crossovers)
Forcing people to change faction, aint gonna happen. Bliz' loose way much to money from people quitting.
But your fairly right shep, most Draenei shamans will be alts, so we're kinda solved there :P
(Jahman will get some lvling :D)
I agree with Sebas, I don't like the idea at all, but rumours I hear state it's to do with class specific encounters, as mentioned before (rogues for suppression) but they didn't want to alter instances per faction. Still seems a copout tho, lazy devs.
and yes, first thing I'll do is Get Umbra/Pan to 70 before seriously working at a new char, then I'll be able to solo BWL :D la lalala
Quote from: SandrionIt will help, but to what extend is uncertain. I don't think many people in guilds will cross over. PvP guilds, maybe. They also didn't want people on the alliance side to level a shammy too level 60 when the expansion comes out (although I doubt many shammies that are in raid guilds will cross over).
Aah, so if i'm reading that correctly it's primarily so that someone who for example already has a 60 Ally Paladin but mainly plays Horde can transfer their Pally to Horde and their Horde guild, thus meaning raids can benefit from Pallys/Shammies straight away instead of waiting for various members to level an alt one to 60?
Sounds reasonable, but i'd hope they'd combine it with the paid character transfer. My alt Pally is on a different server to my Horde main, and neither server is currently setup for paid character transfer, but i'd love to be able to shift the Pally to my Horde guild, as I ardly know anyone on his rcurrent server.
Quote from: Carr0tAah, so if i'm reading that correctly it's primarily so that someone who for example already has a 60 Ally Paladin but mainly plays Horde can transfer their Pally to Horde and their Horde guild, thus meaning raids can benefit from Pallys/Shammies straight away instead of waiting for various members to level an alt one to 60?
Correct.
Something just slipped into my mind...
WHERE ARE THOSE HERO CLASSES THEY PROMISED!? :rant:
Quote from: SebasSomething just slipped into my mind...
WHERE ARE THOSE HERO CLASSES THEY PROMISED!? :rant:
They say they will not be in the expansion.
However I can remember that they say '... and the time for heros is now' in the BC trailer, maybe a hidden message, maybe nothing. Don't give up hope yet ;).
i wouldnt think anything of it, they use hero a lot more then just for that specific class, i think a add slogan was be your own hero in the warcraft universe
Quote from: Basteti wouldnt think anything of it, they use hero a lot more then just for that specific class, i think a add slogan was be your own hero in the warcraft universe
Yes, probably. I just thought it was an interesting choise of words, that's all ;).
I found a text on the WoW-forums which exactly identifies why this is a very bad desicion. Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9165866&p=1&tmp=1#post9165866 (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9165866&p=1&tmp=1#post9165866)
Introduction
First, let me introduce myself. I've played Warcraft for a long time. Warcraft 2 remains one of my favorite games. I played it online before there was Battle.net. I played the Alliance, and I loved the paladin unit. In Warcrft 3, the paladin hero was again my favorite, and I played humans to the top of the realm. The paladin was my staple hero, and I never ever thought of using someone else besides him. I refused to play the other races. For me, the Alliance IS Warcraft. And the paladin is my character.
Fast-forward to WoW. I managed to get into the beta, and I naturally rolled a paladin. I loved it. Holy strike, crusader strike, auras, it felt like a paladin. I went through the groundbreaking changes of the paladin class at release. I remained loyal to my class and was among the first paladins to reach 60. I survived against the horde on a PvP server. I watched as my fellow paladins rallied for changes on our forum, the cries culminating into the paladin review patch. Though many were dissatisfied, I remained loyal, even though our talents are pigeonholed (protection spec? LOL) and our developers seemed to have no idea where we were going. I am a paladin.
Of course, no introduction can be done without including the paladins immortal adversary, the Shaman. White and black, hot and cold, whatever metaphorical comparison you choose to use, that is the state of paladins and shaman. I accepted that they would do more damage than me. I accepted that the press of earth shock (and silence, and counter-spell) could nullify our entire combat system. I accepted the fact that, though I wear plate, I am needed at the back of the raid to support it. And, I have made a shaman and leveled him to 60. However, my true faith still belongs to the paladin class.
The Paladin has historically been the backbone of the Alliance forces. Whether leading the charge, healing the wounded, exorcising the undead, or reviving the dead, the paladin is an iconic symbol of order and justice for the Alliance. The Shaman is the iconic symbol of the Horde, providing spiritual support and leadership for his brethren. While many classes are available to both sides, it is beyond comprehension that a paladin would serve the Horde, let alone a shaman serving in the Alliance.
When people purchased WoW, they had an idea of which side they were going to join. I was destined to join the Alliance and be a paladin, while others saw their fate leading them to choose the Horde and roll a shaman. It was this choice that created a sense of uniqueness for each faction. The individual aspects of the shaman and paladin reflected the religious views of both the Alliance and the Horde. It (along with the language barrier) provided a proverbial wall between both factions that preserved their individuality. To understand this boundary, I shall call it Lore.
However, Blizzard and The Burning Crusade would soon test the wall called Lore.
The Wall Called Lore
The first strike against the wall came with the announcement that the High Elves (renamed Blood Elves) were joining the Horde. Many theorized that this was just a way to give a visually appealing race to the Horde. Blizzards reasoning for this dealt with the Blood Elf campaign from TFT, leading them to ally with the Naga and with Illidan. Despite the fact that the Blood Elves home was ravaged by the Horde, and that the Undead totally destroyed their home, they openly joined with the Horde. Though not readily visible, the wall called Lore began to show cracks. However, Blizzard moved on and, after some time, the player base accepted this decision, and awaited the announcement of the expansion Alliance race.
The second strike against the wall called Lore was swung by none other than the one who built it: Chris Metzen. The Warcraft lore master of Blizzard, Metzen decided that (and easily predicted by the player base) the Draenei would join the Alliance. Metzen, however, was faced with a difficult task: how could these short, ugly members of the Illidan triumvirate join the Alliance. The answer, according to Metzen, was to go back to their roots and explain that the Draenei from TFT were not really THE Draenei, but the Broken, and that the Draenei of WoW are actually exiled Eredar. Yes, the same race that Sargeras himself was forced to conquer in the name of justice. Using the abhorred comic instrument known as a retcon, Metzen turned the tables; Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, and those who refused Sargeras power became the Draenei. These Draenei traveled the cosmos in their Dimensional Ship until they were sabotaged (by the Blood Elves?) and crash-landed on Azeroth. But how would these demons join the alliance? Simple: they believe in the Holy Light of Creation (HLC, aka The Light) thanks to the Naaru (beings extremely close to HLC). Thus, they find themselves welcomed into the Alliance and join the ranks of the paladins.
However, many players in the community began to point out continuity errors in this newly designed plan. And the man who had written it all, Chris Metzen, gave a pointless speech to the community, urging us to disregard everything that was written before in favor for the new ideas.
And with that, the wall called Lore began to crumble.
However, the wall still stood, a mere shadow of its former self, but still a wall nonetheless.
Until today
If demonic paladins and blood elves uniting with their most hated foes were not enough to bring the wall down, a revolutionary change must be implemented to finish the job. That change was released today: The Blood Elves can become paladins, whereas the Draenei can become shaman. The last vestiges of individuality between the Horde and the Alliance have been removed. In the process of doing this, Blizzard has retconned its own retcon: were not the Draenei devout followers of the Light? But now they take up the shamanism of the Orcs, who destroyed 80% of the Draenei race? The Blood Elves can manipulate the holy energies of the Light while disregarding all of the teachings that governed oneself on the road to becoming a paladin? The Light is merely something that can be stolen now? And, in perhaps the biggest moment of lore blasphemy and heresy, Blood Elf Paladins shall fight shoulder to shoulder with the Undead. Thus, despite having had their home destroyed by both Horde and Undead, the Blood Elves repay the Horde by joining them as Paladins.
And with that, the wall called Lore tumbled to the ground, unable to bear the assault that was Retcon. The father has destroyed that which he has created.
I am not sure that I have encountered a double retcon in any other fictional series. And to retcon a retcon in such a short time is surely the sign of an unsure mind. Unfortunately, these two negatives break the laws of mathematics, for they do not produce a positive. As a paladin, I find myself losing the urge to continue to play, as I will soon find myself surrounded by those whom I called enemy. And I am sure many a Shaman are worried that their spot in endgame raids will be replaced by the blasphemy that is the Blood Elf Paladin.
As some would say, WoW has jumped the shark.
Understand the Destruction
After the fall of the wall called Lore, we have struggled to understand what warranted such wanton devastation. A general consensus of the forums seems to point to the never-ending quest for balance. This idea of balance has revolved around the wall called Lore, focusing specifically on the paladin and shaman classes. Thus it fell to Blizzard to remedy the supposedly broken aspects of WoW.
Since the beginning, paladins have been described as a defensive hybrid class, whereas the Shaman has been described as an offensive hybrid class. This can be seen as a good deal of the paladins abilities are geared towards healing and support, whereas the Shaman is able to put out some impressive numbers in the damage department. Paladins, as defensive classes, were given the ability to wear plate, while Shaman were given mail and a shield to complement their offensive abilities. While some complain, the numbers are rather similar: a paladin wielding a two handed weapon has a similar armor rating to a shaman wearing a shield. Those paladins who desired to play more defensively adopted the use of a shield, while those Shaman who desired a more offensive role threw down their shields in favor of the biggest two handed weapon they could get their hands on.
Both classes received reviews and are generally considered stronger after each. Paladins received a damage and healing boost, while Shaman received a rather impressive boost to their healing abilities and improvements to their already formidable damage dealing capabilities. However, many still cry imbalance, while others work through the perceived imbalances to find a way to thrive. This quest is one of the most prevalent features in any game: to discover ones capabilities and to achieve things that were either desired or unseen by the games creators.
So how does this lead to the destruction of the wall called Lore?
Simple: the lead design team has programmed themselves into a linear mindset. Instead of creating new, unique challenges for the player base in the expansion, they have continued to steam along on a straight line of unoriginality. Eventually, they are going to come full circle, and encounter the wall that they constructed at the beginning. Rather than branch out and try new things, the programmers have taken what they have already made, thrown it into a pot, and creating something they want us to believe to be new. However, it isnt new; it is the same stuff weve been doing since day one. The new, groundbreaking ideas that governed the construction of WoW has long since become stale and obsolete, but the linear mindset of the programmers have not paid attention. They seem to have given up on the quest for balance, choosing instead to take the easy way out. In doing so, they have shamed every single WoW player, and they have shamed the reputation of Warcraft as a series.
Who is to blame?
This is where the Community Managers come into the equation. Whereas the game designers sail consistently along a straight line, the CMs routinely travel from the linear line of the game designer to the ever changing world of the forum, where opinions, suggestions, observations, etc. flow on a constant basis. The CMs observe, consult, converse, and report to both the game designers and the community base. Too often they are caught in the crossfire and are often mislabeled as the root of all evil on the forum. They are the beings that can travel between the world of player and game designer, for they used to be one of us, a simple player looking for a way out of the harsh reality that we are exposed to on a daily basis. However, the price of becoming a CM is that they must put up with the misdirected hatred for the game designers themselves are often too busy (or afraid) to defend their decisions on the forum. This can be seen in CMs pasting designer responses on the forums, but designers themselves not coming out to defend their own claims. But the CMs have been a boon to the player base. How, you ask?
They give ideas to the linear game designer mind.
Looking back on the patches, many of the new implementations can be divided into two types: linear and nonlinear. The linear updates consist of the usual: pounding out new 40 man content that some of us many never see. The nonlinear updates consist of unique ideas that, conceptualized by the player base, have found their way into the World of Warcraft. A few examples:
Cross-Realm Battlegrounds
Linked Auction Houses
Tier 0.5 Armor Sets
Flight Paths
Multiple Battleground Queues
Judgement Tier 2 Armor Design
World Raid Bosses
User Interface Improvements (often ganked by the linear programmers)
Meeting Stones (though the idea seems to have been misinterpreted by the linear programmers)
Various improvements to classes and the honor system
Key rings
Were not for the constant pressing of the community, these updates would most likely have never made it into the game. For these improvements we can only thank the Community Managers for diligently conveying our nonlinear ideas to the linear programmers. We must not vent our displeasure on the Community Managers. They had nothing to do with this travesty.
However, despite the work of the community and the CMs, the unoriginality of the WoW designers still reigns supreme. The two new races of the expansion pack have been forced astray from their original inceptions. The endgame of today is still the endgame of tomorrow: 40 man raids. One can only look to ZulAman, yet ANOTHER troll infested instance, as an example of unoriginality. We already have two of those. Where is the evil Tauren instance? We have an entire tribe of Grimtotem Tauren that are portrayed as being evil, but are completely dropped from the game after one leaves Stonetalon Peak.
The inclusion of the Draenei and Blood Elves as player controlled races also undoes the very story of TFT, where Kael leaves Azeroth with his people to join Illidins faction. This faction consisted of the Blood Elves, the Draenei, and the Naga. They could have been designed as a possible third faction for WoW. The direction that the story could have been taken had this idea come to fruition could have been amazing, giving the player the chance to join the supposed evil side of Warcraft. This could have explored the reasoning behind Illidans doings, and his possible actions, either through trying to break free of Kiljaedens control or to hopefully try another assault on Northrend. The creation of a third faction would satisfy the cravings of both the PvE and PvP crowd by introducing a third unique class and the advent of a three-for-all PvP war spanning across both Azeroth and Outland. Instead of building on this fast paced storyline, the designers chose instead to destroy it. Clearly, a pattern of destroying a successful creation is apparent.
A while back, I remember reading someones proposed patch notes. In the proposition, it included an in-game event for engineers and non-engineers alike. It would utilize the caged dome structure in Gadgetzan and would involve the creation of robots and the subsequent combat between said robots along the lines of shows like Robot Wars. This idea was so convincing that the community was dismayed to find out that a community member created the patch notes. The idea of profession specific events is an outstanding idea, but there isnt even space on the backburner for such things. We are instead given monotonous quests such as the so-called Fishing Extravaganza, which more or less is just fishing. The creation of profession specific events would greatly add to the Player VS Environment aspect of the game. This is the kind of uniqueness that we need from patches, not the same grind.
Unfortunately, we are given more 40 man instances to grind. The only instance so far that has been designed to satisfy player feedback seems to be Karazhan. Ive ready many a forum thread desiring a small epic endgame raid instance. I look to Karazhan as an example of player-designer feedback. It is promised to be an extremely large (epic!) 10-man dungeon, so big that it will have its own flight path at the top. The size of Karazhan combined with a rather small raid group stands to reaffirm both casual and hardcore players. We can only hope it does not fall prey to the same actions that destroyed the wall called Lore.
Edit: I spoke too soon, see page 6 for Karazhan.
What can we do?
The only thing we have to go on is the words of the designers as given to us by the CMs. The linear designers do not have the slightest qualm in breaking any promise. And, as we have seen from the destruction of Lore, they do not care about breaking established canon. Thus, from an initial observation, it seems that there is very little that we can do.
As hopeless as it seems to you and to me, we must voice our opinions. I ask that you do so in an orderly manner, and use this thread to further our cause. We do not want to lose our individuality. We want the Horde to stay the Horde, and the Alliance to stay the Alliance. If they wanted shaman and paladin to be on the same team, then they should make it possible in Outland instances, between the Horde and the Alliance. There is no reason to give up the last individual aspects of these cultures to satisfy the game designers inability to balance these classes. I know that my desire to continue my paladin has been extinguished.
Remember, it is not our CMs fault. This is no time to roleplay a response either. Let them know that this is unacceptable.
AMEN!
I was rather surprised with the descisions they made in the BC regarding races too. The part about the Dreanei is not entirely correct though (I think), since I remember Metzen say in an interview from the E3 this year that it already was part of the lore, but he even forgot about it himself :lmfao: .