Well now RG2 had it first ride into BWL, and it initially cause some big problems with RG2 was overflowed with defenders that wanted to join for the run. This was a big problem, because for the first time we had like 50 that wanted to join for the run.
To help this i think we need to make a system that awards those the contribute to the raid on all raidnites and not only on BWL nites. A suggestion to this would be that we make a attendence system that monitor those we know that doesnt show up very often for the RG2 MC and OL runs, and give the ones that have very good attendence priority on BWL invites, and those dkp/loot whores that only shows up for the "fun" part gets in the back of the line. This could be done fairly simple as each CL kinda knows who attends and who doesnt in thier own class. So on each invite if in doubt we could look at att. site and give the spot for the most attending for the last month, so in that way ppl do have a chance of improving thier attendence and get a spot in BWL. This only requires some dedication from the player - Earn and you shall have...
I would love to get some comments on this...
Theres not much to say, as I TOTALLY agree on you, Siffredi.
yep made made the same idea in another thread :)
I see one problem with this, depeding on the definition of attendance. Cause if attendance is beeing in a raid, then the gap between those in bwl and those not will get larger every raid.
Also it will highly demotivate the ppl that might have some sort of a live (assuposed to the rest of us :narnar:) and are thus unable to make the higher level of attendance.
We used to have guardian spots that where based on attendance, first 75%, later 3/4 highest attending members. This ****ed off a lot of defenders (who where all the ppl who didnt raid much). It wont work. I am sure the other Field Marshals will agree.
Also, i dont think the problem will be this big again, its the first raid, and every1 made time to be here.
Rg1 uses the system that the last to join is the first to go out should it be needed. And the first time you have to remove ppl is no fun, but ppl get used to it, afterall it shouldnt happen to much..
I must say I disagree with you Siffredi in you proposal.
Like Bastet say
QuoteCause if attendance is beeing in a raid, then the gap between those in bwl and those not will get larger every raid.
I think we have to use the same system as RG1 - last in, first out.
It is not fun to ask people to leave but necessary.
I agree bastet. But I woud still have in mind who it was that had to leave his spot last time to benefit the raid, so it is not allways the same ppl that have to leave there spot. Just MO
But honestly, do you think it's fair that a person like Keltor (20/20 raids) don't get the chance to join the raid and a person like Ringspun (that wasnt even Attuned to BWL+low attendance) gets in? Keltor is one of the most experienced raiders in SoG - we really need him in every raid and the same goes for Buford.
Rolling wont work, maybe attendance wont either but we really need to find out some new idea IF this problem will happen again.
Both attendence and last in, first out (lifo) is unfair imo. I dont like attendence because it rules out people from upping their attendence, i dont like the LIFO because some players might get the last whisper every time. (this could be a player who types badly english and has to confirm his typing is ok before hitting enter... ect.ect.)
Maybe we should look a bit on alternative solutions?
A few suggestions ( not final but quick suggestions since im at work )
A) Last in, first out
- BUT with the execption of gear.
You must at least have X number of set items to be able to join RG2 BWL - We can do this, because, we dont want to have a Blue geared people with us i BWL, I myself find this a waste of the other raiders time!
This can easily be confirmed by the ML of the day, who has enough gear.
This suggestion is more fair because it will benefit those who has been a lot in MC (more epix) and we dont directly measure people on attendance.
B ) Exeactly the same as suggestion A, with a sidenote.
- We Marshalls will have the possibility to say to the 2nd last joining person;
"You were 2nd last to whisper, however the last person to whisper has been ruled out the last BWL and qualifies just as much as you, are you willing to give up your spot to your class mate?
This will not really be a question IF he wants to give him the spot, but a measurement of that persons team spirit, for later revising of Defender members.
Answers:
Yes = good player, which respects his class mates, and has got team spirit.
No = an egoistic player, which does not totally repsect his class mates, and lacks team spirit.
What do you think of these? - They might need some work, but the basics are there.
The second (B) suggestion is like running a full attendance system - and that means it will not be easy or quick to implement when you're trying to bring together a full raid team.
The first suggestion (A) means you need to rank all members and tell them which slot number they hold. Last ranked on the basis of gear will tend to increasingly become 'last ranked' because they missed out on the loot last raid as they were 'last ranked'. The system tends to stagnate people to the same rank and you have the additional problem of trying to rank people. That gets you into arguments about gear v experience, PVE v PVP spec and basically heads towards a whole heap'o'trouble.
LIFO is not ideal, but in the long run has tended to work for RG1 to date with relatively little trouble. If I get an overflow of a specific class then I tend to whisper the last person immediately and tell them they are on the bubble. That way when I whisper them and say 'sorry but you got to leave' they are not shocked and then go straight to queue.
TL.
The problem with the current RG2 situation is that we recently got some new (blues/few epix) members, and was not planning BWL runs at that time. (no we didnt start off BWL to early)
I think we need to have some other way of letting members in BWL than LIFO, as we need to best geared players to attempt BWL.
So if we do LIFO, its totally random who gets in and who dosent - But i might only have been a one time problem, but we still need to make sure we are better prepared than last time. We had a real risk of loseing severel (OF OUR BEST) members, that were pretty P*****.
I think the mistake we did was not inviting proberly from the start?
How is this done best / most fair?
1. We do the auto invites, and the LIFO surplus of each class down till 5 members, and put these first in queue. Then when we have 35, we fill it up with the surplus from queue.
First need, those class'es we need more that 5 of and then ?
- We can do from first in queue, because that would not be fair for that class beeing called out last, is it done by handpicking members, which could be done from severel factors (did not get in last raid, needed due to bad geared in the raid of same class)
Could be great with a detailed description of how RG1 does?
OT again. Well im outta suggestions, we seem to fall back to LIFO or attendence (which I dislikes the most of the 2)
Quote from: SazgulHow is this done best / most fair?
1. We do the auto invites, and the LIFO surplus of each class down till 5 members, and put these first in queue. Then when we have 35, we fill it up with the surplus from queue.
First need, those class'es we need more that 5 of and then ?
- We can do from first in queue, because that would not be fair for that class beeing called out last, is it done by handpicking members, which could be done from severel factors (did not get in last raid, needed due to bad geared in the raid of same class)
Could be great with a detailed description of how RG1 does?
I like that idea pretty much.
Attendance is out of the question since we are using that for a requirement to be a RG2 member. This way you will never beable to give a warning to one with low attendance or demote them if we only want them in raid 50% of the raids.
Best gear will be nice but not fair to new people in RG2 or the people with a low attendance. This will only benafit the people who gets to BWL in the long way.(= always the same people).
We pick people to the raid... same 40 persons every time I think.
Auto invite and kick(ask to leave) people if there is more end 5 pr. class it's not fair for the people who is slow in writing.
None for this ways to do it, is good / fair, but we need a system to NOT prevent this again but to could get the peoples accept with it.
QuoteOriginally Posted by Sazgul
Could be great with a detailed description of how RG1 does?
QuoteOriginally Posted by Bastet
Rg1 uses the system that the last to join is the first to go out should it be needed. And the first time you have to remove ppl is no fun, but ppl get used to it, afterall it shouldnt happen to much..
How must more detailed can this be?
QuoteHow must more detailed can this be?
Ehm a bit more.....
We invite 5 of each class, surplus goes on queue.... then what GD? Will you pick no.1-5 from the queue, these are most likely to be the first class called to join raid. Is this fair..
If we call for warriors first and there are 7 warriors we get 2 to leave, will these get no. 1+2 in queue?
- How does RG1 deal with this.
My last suggestion would be; LIFO. Inform people about that, and say we first use the LIFO rule to pick 5 of each class, then last spots are filled with the surplus of classes in queue. Saying that those asked to leave would be in queue (first bunch of queued) for us to pick, so it'll benefit the raid best. (We have to remember to use different invite words every time)
8 class x 5 people is 40 men - what do you mean Sazgul?
I don't get it where you got the 35 from in you calculation.
My bad GD, sorry :( I did a mistake.
Well please ignore my comments then, I dont know where those calculations came from? It must be the heat, and the fact im posting from work (ie. little time to post) :biggrin:
Well I say LIFO then, but at BWL, we must reserve the right to make sure that everyone gets their chance.
OT
I think Marshalls are very soon settled on a solution... LIFO seems to be the way to do it, with maybe the exeception of RG2 BWL first month or two, imo we should reserve the right to make sure every gets their shoot on BWL from the start.
for exeample, next raid palladin join looks like this;
...insert 4 palladins...
[Werful]
[Buford]
The imo we should allow Buford a spot, since Werful was in the last BWL run. At least for the start of RG2 in BWL... Im afraid if someone is always last (yes this will happen) they lose interest, and will feel like they are beeing put second.
Quote from: SazgulI think Marshalls are very soon settled on a solution... LIFO seems to be the way to do it, with maybe the exeception of RG2 BWL first month or two, imo we should reserve the right to make sure every gets their shoot on BWL from the start.
for exeample, next raid palladin join looks like this;
...insert 4 palladins...
[Werful]
[Buford]
The imo we should allow Buford a spot, since Werful was in the last BWL run. At least for the start of RG2 in BWL... Im afraid if someone is always last (yes this will happen) they lose interest, and will feel like they are beeing put second.
Be careful. You're creating a system that needs looking after and extra work for all officers. In addition, let's say one of the pallies does nto show for several weeks then turns up - your system would boot someone from the raid and allow a rare raider to go to BWL instead of the regular supporter.
KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.
LIFO is my 2 cents. It looks after itself and people accept it.
TL.
You are having a blessing of a problem!
This problem wil go away . Trust me:flirty:
And return when you are clearing 3 bosses a night.
Do invites by class , stop at 5 pr class. Once it is done tell the rest to whisper for a spot in the que. When one leaves get the nexst of that class from the que.