Sometimes the I hear that the tanks are complaining about people that pull aggro of them, mainly because of early assist calls. So I took 'burst damage' Manny along to try and see how hard it would be to tank a mob if you get about zero aggro time before DPS starts.
The mobs we were using are the elite dragonkin in the burning steppes, because they have decent armor (which reduced my aggro generation ability a bit) and they hit hard enough, so rage won't be a problem. Outdoors this was the closest I could find to an MC mob :unsure: , sure there are stronger mobs around, but I can't heal myself while tanking; it was just about the initial damage part anyway.
We both had only druid buffs on and nothing else; nope no BoS for Manny either.
Here is the movie: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3714418800980696031&hl=nl (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3714418800980696031&hl=nl)
But I have to say that if Manny opened with a aimed + multi shot crit and I didn't have the immobilizing effect of feral charge on the mob I did lose it and needed to taunt it to get it back. Other then that it's impossible to get it of me :norty: . Also note that I can miss on my first attack (then I'm in trouble), warriors don't really have that problem with sunders, they just hammer the button again.
Warriors always get a couple of seconds before DPS starts, so how is it possible that they lose aggro, while I can easily hold it?
P.S.: KTM wasn't showing the correct amount of aggro btw. I had more then it was actually saying :thumbsdown: .
After seeing the movie I now know what you mean...
I can't tell you why you maintained agro above a hunter.... From the mob's point of view is it that the person with highest life threat will get his agro. But these dragons don't have the same bunch of abilities as mob bosses. Try it on one of the drakes that wander around there. I would love to see some comments on this thread as I'm curious about the answers of some warriors.
I know we use a dr00d in bear form when we are ganking Hexxer in ZG...
Hope to see some answers.....
Is it possible that the hunters used low lvl arrows? Just a question.
Nope, he used the AV ones http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40511 (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40511).
And we use druids on Hexxer, because we can't be polymorphed. If the tanks gets pollied he loses all his threat and won't be able to get it aggro back.
Druid tanks have some advantages (like the one state above), but generaly speaking it is better to use warriors as tanks.
And drakes are not a problem either btw :happy: , the only downside they have is that they resist the immobilizing effect of feral charge.
Quote from: SandrionAnd we use druids on Hexxer, because we can't be polymorphed. If the tanks gets pollied he loses all his threat and won't be able to get it aggro back.
Thats not true, you lose agro only for the duration of the poly, but thats enough time for hexxer to run over and gank a healer if there high on the agro list.
Also the problem in MC is not that to little agro time its given, its the dps is sometimes going before the tank even reaches the mob, also in BS you dont need to worry about placement, when placeing your likely running away, or backpaddling, meaning your abilitys will be out of range 75% off time (mob runs faster, reaches you, stops to hit, and then runs for you again). While moving a tank is not able to make the same ammount of argo then after in possition. And if you get a bit unlucky with block/parry/dodge you dont have enough rage to do much.
Also feral charge gives you a few hits while its immobile, that dont work in MC.
DPS should use as rule of thumb the second sunder up on target.
And remember that while your dmg increases a lot over time when gear builds, warriors dont make more threath. They can only get so many abilitys off in a time frame, and most of the mobs allready make warriors have rage to spare.
Quote from: Bastet...
And remember that while your dmg increases a lot over time when gear builds, warriors dont make more threath. They can only get so many abilitys off in a time frame, and most of the mobs allready make warriors have rage to spare.
Not true. Warriors with greater weapons get more agro and 8pcs of Might helps on the agro too.
From my PoV i think the reason why warriors loose agro is because of rogues. I have 110 energy now which means i can backstab 2 times in about 2 seconds. With two crits that is 2000+ dmg and then there is the normal hits/crits between.
Quote from: NefrionNot true. Warriors with greater weapons get more agro and 8pcs of Might helps on the agro too.
From my PoV i think the reason why warriors loose agro is because of rogues. I have 110 energy now which means i can backstab 2 times in about 2 seconds. With two crits that is 2000+ dmg and then there is the normal hits/crits between.
Hmm i don't agree with u. I never see a rouge getting agro. But warlocks and mages do tend to get it alot. Oh and then we are dead since no one wants to heal us :(. We might get lucky and survive getting agro in MC but no chance in hell in BWL.
A few hunters also tend to get agro if they forget to FD. But thats about it.
About the Hexxer bit, you're right it's just for the duration of the effect, I may have misphrased that a bit. (the pollied tank doesn't get wiped of the aggro list).
It is also true that druids generate more aggro, are more rage efficient and that their threat scales with gear. That of a warrior doesn't (except for the might set bonus); at least not much since only weapon damage increases which causes only little treath (130% times weapon damage, 145% with talents).
And about the feral charge, I don't use it on the 3th mob. Once I get one maul hit I've got aggro and am not letting go :taz: .
In case the DPS starts before the tanks hits the target, it's understandable he loses it of course.
try holding aggro while im beating on the dragon.
Feint perhaps? :)
Quote from: Keltortry holding aggro while im beating on the dragon.
Sure I'm up for that, let me know when you got time to try it out.
QuoteHmm i don't agree with u. I never see a rouge getting agro. But warlocks and mages do tend to get it alot. Oh and then we are dead since no one wants to heal us :(. We might get lucky and survive getting agro in MC but no chance in hell in BWL.
l2not overagro : ) Most agro doesnt mean the most damage done. You can do alot of dmg without actually overagroing.
1 comment:
If you think tanking is easy stuff, Do it yourself!
end of comment
now regarding the might 8piece set, the might stats suck get over it
bigger dam weapons? the faster the weapon is the better, so thats not an option. (why faster is better? try spamming ms/sunder with a slow weapon then try spamming ms/sunder with a fast weapon)(oh and bdw, the 2nd row fury talent, unbridled rage(or how the heck its written), has a chance of adding 1 rage per hit, so- the faster=more hits=more rage)
ultimate benefits-fast(but low dmg weaps)= chance or rage per hit, better hs/sunder spamming, and since we dont always hit.. well faster also helps
slow:chance on rage per hit(IF you hit), spamming sunder/hs. (youre joking really?)
how tanks build rage: We get hit, and when we block(if you have shield spec), we dont make rage via hitting(epect the 1 rage via talent)
Disclaimer: If you overaggro me too many times and annoy the heck out of me, i WILL let you die when you aggro again. ille get my aggro back easily after youre dead (does not apply to healers)
What you say is true Gorion. I'm not blaming the tanks or anything, I'm just trying to find out what the problem is really.
I'd yes I would like to tank, but I doubt they will let me because I'm a druid and we already have enough tanks :sad: .
Quote from: NefrionNot true. Warriors with greater weapons get more agro and 8pcs of Might helps on the agro too.
From my PoV i think the reason why warriors loose agro is because of rogues. I have 110 energy now which means i can backstab 2 times in about 2 seconds. With two crits that is 2000+ dmg and then there is the normal hits/crits between.
Warriors w/ harder hitting weapons make more rage, but if a mob hits sokhar for 3,500 = full rage bar, i cant spend it as fast as it comes in, hence i cant make more threath then allready making. Also 8/8 might warriors are extreemly rare, wrath is better stats wise.
Quote from: SandrionIt is also true that druids generate more aggro, are more rage efficient and that their threat scales with gear. That of a warrior doesn't (except for the might set bonus); at least not much since only weapon damage increases which causes only little treath (130% times weapon damage, 145% with talents).
Druids dont generate more agro. They are slower to build up, but cant be polied. And white weapon dmg still accounts for half a warriors threath (49.6% on sokhar over a full ZG clear)
Also the reason you dont see many rogues overagroing is how thier dmg works, warriors/rogues (battle/zerker) make 0.8 threath per dmg, mages/locks make more, and get a bigger bonus for big crits.
Bastet you are contradicting yourself in the same post. First you say that warriors can't make more threat then they are already making when they get an weapon upgrade and then you say that the white damage creates 50% of your threat. I am guessing that a better weapon increases your white damage and such the threat you generate also.
That you can't use your rage up just means that you have an endless amount of damage capability while a rogue, hunter and casters will have a limited amount of damage income. You get to spam Heroic Strike+other abilities unhinderd by the rage requirements now just think how it would be if your rogue would be allowed to spam SS or backstab unhinderd.
hmm i quess i was more tired last nite then i thought :blink: anyhow, if ppl go for tanking stats on a sword/mace theres only 3 good weapons till well into AQ, namely Quel, bloodlords defender, and spineshatter. Not counting TF, cause well it dont bloody drop for us.... There isnt too much diff in dmg between those 3, as far as i recall.
Bastet here is the source I'm relying on which proves that druid > warrior in terms of aggro.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=781672&p=1&tmp=1#post781675 (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=781672&p=1&tmp=1#post781675)
Als keep in mind that druids are more efficient when it comes to rage usage. We can maul on every attack, faerie fire is free and we have swipe as 'rage dump' ability. Although rage is not much of a problem if you are tanking a hard hitting boss. The problem is that our ability to generate aggro reduces with the amount of damage mitigation of the mob you're tanking, more armor and dodge means less damage thus less threat. Since druids completely rely on damage to generate aggro, opposed to warriors, warriors will surely out aggro us on high level mobs.
Quote from: SandrionThe problem is that our ability to generate aggro reduces with the amount of damage mitigation of the mob you're tanking, more armor and dodge means less damage thus less threat. Since druids completely rely on damage to generate aggro, opposed to warriors, warriors will surely out aggro us on high level mobs.
Warriors have a problem with too much dmg migration, you dont get rage for dodge/parry (not sure, but it sure is a hell of a lot less then what you get for a hit of 1k). With high armor, like might or wrath, tanking instances like strat is not possible unless you dual wield. Its one of the reasons you sometimes see movies from guilds where warriors dual wield, you take more dmg, and make more dmg, thus making sure theres enough rage to work with.
Druids dont have the problem that thier rage creation can stick to nil if you only dodge/parry a few blows, your dodge is lower, and armor is higher, making for a more steady rage creation. The downside of that is that thier threath creation works differantly (Druid and spellbinder = lolz)
Quote from: BastetWarriors have a problem with too much dmg migration, you dont get rage for dodge/parry (not sure, but it sure is a hell of a lot less then what you get for a hit of 1k). With high armor, like might or wrath, tanking instances like strat is not possible unless you dual wield. Its one of the reasons you sometimes see movies from guilds where warriors dual wield, you take more dmg, and make more dmg, thus making sure theres enough rage to work with.
Druids dont have the problem that thier rage creation can stick to nil if you only dodge/parry a few blows, your dodge is lower, and armor is higher, making for a more steady rage creation. The downside of that is that thier threath creation works differantly (Druid and spellbinder = lolz)
Yes, I was thinking about that a couple of days ago. Doesn't better tanking gear nerf your ability to generate threat quite a bit? Since warriors mainly focus on +def/dodge/parry/block.
I did a baron run with opticalrush once, and like you said he wasn't using wrath, but a 2hander and DPS gear for tanking. He was like an aggro magnet, didn't let go of anything, not even when tanking multiple (4+) mobs; truely amazing. But he was taking a lot more damage though.
Btw what is the problem with the spellbinders, since druids can't be pollied? Do they have a frost shield that reduces attack speed by 40% or something (these are a major pain)?
yep, to high tanking kit is not good for tanking lower things. i use dual wield, and still my tank armor to limit dmg somewhat.
I dunno why @ spellbinder, i just know if i give vargen one, ppl start dieing :narnar:
Well a druid shouldn't let go of a mob.
Here are some stats that indicate the amount of damage someone must do to overaggro on me when I only use maul on every attack; this is with only MoTW and Thorns on me and without taking threat generated swipe into account. In a real situation I will generate a little more threat then stated here.
-----
My AP in bear form is 912 with MoTW on which equals 65.1DPS.
My weapon DPS is 52.4.
Together that is 117.5DPS.
Multiply this by 2.5 (bear attack speed) = 293.9 + 154 damage from maul (got the +20% maul damage talent) = 448 unmitigated damage per hit on average.
448 x 1.3 = 582.4
white: 572 x 1.75 x 0.8 = 815.36
crit: 572 x 0.2 = 116.48 x 1.75 x 2 x 2 = 407.68
avg threat per maul: 815.36 + 407.68 = 1223.04
1456 / 2.5 = 489.216 TPS
Thorns: 18 / 3 = 6 TPS
fearie fire: 180 / 10 = 18 TPS
Total TPS: 513.216
After 0% mitigation = TPS
Melee aggro gain = 513.216 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 1008 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 513.216 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 953 DPS
After 30% mitigation = 358.2512 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 358.2512 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 706 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 358.2512 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 667 DPS
After 40% mitigation = 307.9296 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 307.9296 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 605 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 307.9296 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 572 DPS
After 50% mitigation = 256.608 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 256.608 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 504 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 256.608 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 477 DPS
After 75% mitigation = 128.304 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 128.304 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 252 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 128.304 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 238 DPS
Worst case scenario (75% DR from armor, 5% miss rate, 5% dodge, 5% parry):
100% - 5% miss = 95% * (100% - (5% dodge + 5% parry)) = 85.5% * 75% DR = 21.375 = 78.625% mitigation.
After 78.625% mitigation = 109.69992 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 109.69992 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 215 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 109.69992 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 204 DPS
-----
Keep in mind that these stats are based on my gear and I'm not specced for tanking (don't have natural weapons 110% damage x 130% = +13% additional threat and I don't have the 145% threat talent either (+15%); these will give +29.5% additional threat (1.45 x 1.10 - 1.3) if you have both. The +3% melee crit aura will give you another 3 / 80 * 2 * 0.5 = 2.5% extra threat. Which totals a whooping 32.7375% (1.295 * 1.025) more threat in total if I respecc).
A well geared protection specced warriors should cause more aggro then me, that's why I would like to know why some of them let go from time to time. Is it because of a series of unfortunate crits that some people over aggro? Or because warriors are short on rage and can't get enough revenges/sunders on the target? Or something else? Right now I got the feeling the damage dealers are blaming the tanks and the tanks the damage dealers. Which is not a good situation to be in imho. (btw, I'm a healer so I'm neurtal :happy: ).
Edit: I just checked my weapon damage it's +/- 440 with maul (unmitigated).
Edit2: Corrected the modifiers for ranged and melee (I mixed them up, it was the other way around).
Edit3: Added some more stats and updated the calculations.
Edit4: Added a worst case scenario.
Edit5: Corrected the threat generated by crits (my 'source' got updated recently, they found out that mauls don't generate 4 times normal threat but just 2 times :blink:, which is more logical of course).
If some1 gets a abnormal high crit (or other big spikes) before the tank has a bit of time to get agro, then yes, you get agro. Same with heals, just use HT rank 10 w/ NS and your dead.
After that, some classes can get over the agro cieling of a tank (the speed they make agro w/) hunters mainly, why they FD a lot. locks dont have the luxury.
I understand the first part, if you open with a couple of crits the tanks can't hold it.
But over-aggroing during a fight? Look at the numbers, even at 50% mitigation you will need to consistantly do a shitload of DPS to get it of me, let alone from a good tank.
i wont make that much yes, but a hunter or warlock going all out can eazyly hit it, just ask ashjen, asheera or jt 8)
Also, thats a perfect world, no miss, dodge, parry on mobs, which wont happen
Quote from: Basteti wont make that much yes, but a hunter or warlock going all out can eazyly hit it, just ask ashjen, asheera or jt 8)
Damn, do they really do that much DPS?
Oh and the mitigation includes misses/dodges/parries. But you can get an unluck streak of course.
its not so much the dmg, but more the modifiers for thier dmg, not sure how it works, but i know rogue gets a build in modifier on threath of 0.8 so its really hard for us to take agro.
I thought ranged was 0.8, melee 1 and warriors in defencive stance and druids in bear form 1.3 (or 1.45 with talents).
Turns out I was wrong :unsure: , it's the other way around (updated the above post).
These are the correct modifiers: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers)
Btw, if any damage dealer wants to try over-aggroing a mob that I'm tanking, let me know, I'd really like to try it out.
Quote from: SandrionDamn, do they really do that much DPS?
Oh and the mitigation includes misses/dodges/parries. But you can get an unluck streak of course.
Us hunters can pull agro of the tanks most of the time but as it is not needed we don't do it as myself i'm running a threatmeter all the time so i can see how many agro i got, if i get to much agro ill feign or just ease down.
Quote from: SandrionI thought ranged was 0.8, melee 1 and warriors in defencive stance and druids in bear form 1.3 (or 1.45 with talents).
Turns out I was wrong :unsure: , it's the other way around (updated the above post).
These are the correct modifiers: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers)
Btw, if any damage dealer wants to try over-aggroing a mob that I'm tanking, let me know, I'd really like to try it out.
Always happy to help out m8 :)
Quote from: SoulbringerxAlways happy to help out m8 :)
Ok, throw me a wisper when I'm online and when you are ready to try it out. But I think we need mobs with more armor then the dragonkin from the burning steppes, since Manny couldn't get those of me unless he opened with two or three crits. Does anyone have any suggestions about where to find some elite high AC outdoor mobs that I can tank without needing to heal myself?
As Bastet originally said, it's not so much not enough time for warrior as no time at all, if a ranged class starts attack before a warrior has got any hits in (this could be becasue he hasn't got there yet or the first hit misses, and NO you can't always do sunder immediately cos that requires rage) then often he has to run after it again, reducing time in contact, also taunt is only a temporary thing to keep the mob ther while he generates some permanent aggro, afterwards it can run away again, if so he has to chase it some more while the taunt cools down, since aggro generating effects have about 0.000001 yard range :(
So yes, it's a good rule of thumb that 2 sunders means the tank has hit it a few times, I don't know anyone tanking who will jsut walk up and use standard attack, any tank in SoG knows some decent aggro combos, but you MUST give them time to build them, that includes rage building sometimes. neither attacks or rage will build if he's out of range while chasing the damn things all over an instance because some ranged fool got trigger happy. All in all, it's a few seconds to reach a mob, maybe a second or two till the first attack kicks in (some weapons are slow, easy test is to select melee attack on some target, and run through it, see how far behind it you get before the attack actually happens), then a few attacks to get some decent rage to start spamming aggro skills (bit less if you used bloodrage but that's finite). Once they get going you can't take aggro off a tank really.
Lastly , tank getting up clsoe can get stunned (Gehennas? or whatever), slowed (Garr), feared (magmadar) or allsorts that ranged classes don't get involved in. Tanks have to do a hell of alot before the tanking gets stable, so wait for it or die, but certainly don't complain that a tank is 'losing aggro' if he never had a chance to get it in the first place.
An example was at sulfuron, or whatever with the priests, when you are positioning a mob, you get a couple of hits in and then focus on positioning, thus, you taunt it, sunder it, maybe HS, then you drag it somewhere out of range of healing. If it stops halfway to eat a warlock/hunter, gets healed, wipes the raid, the only thing I'll say is 'don't sodding well attack it before it's positioned, the tank has started fully tanking, and a RL says dps go'
WAIT FOR 2 SUNDERS OR YOU CAN SLEEP WITH THE SALAMANDERS:)
Yep, 2 sunders is a good rule. On the dragons Manny couldn't get them off me if I got two mauls on it first (not even if he got an aimed + auto + multi crit after that), but like Bastet said:
Quote from: BastetAfter that, some classes can get over the agro cieling of a tank (the speed they make agro w/) hunters mainly, why they FD a lot. locks dont have the luxury.
If everyone watches KTM for there threat level it shouldn't be a problem.
But if you look at the numbers I posted it seems unlikely to me that someone will do enough damage to get a mob of the tank; unless the tank has problems with building up rage. Warriors should also have less trouble with the damage mitigation of mobs, since there abilities generate a set amount of threat. Does anyone have any calculations that (realisticly) show the amount of threat a warrior generates in average/worst case scenarios?
Quote from: SandrionIf everyone watches KTM for there threat level it shouldn't be a problem.
In my oppinion, addons such as KTM shouldn't really be used. People should be able to handle their aggro without it. And for it to be correct, you also need everybody in it...
And also, what about the day when there comes a patch that makes KTM not work? And you're all dependant on it to not pull aggro?
Not a good idea <_<
True, KTM is just a tool that's there for your confience. But I have too say it can be very usefull for the DPS classes.
But note that if you are useing a druid as tank (like on Hexxer) it probably won't really work since it is incorrect (it showed less then I really had). It doesn't record faerie fire, which is not really a problem since doesn't generate much aggro (180 every 10secs), but it also recorded only half the amount of threat when I critted with maul (a crit of 650 causes about 3k threat but it only registered 1.5k. With a crit rate of 20% it's way off within a minute already :thumbsdown: ).
Edit: KTM isn't as bad as I thought, check the calculations on page 3 for details. The part about maul crits here is not true.
Here is some background info to make threat abit easyer to understand:
--
Definitions: Threat vs Aggro, Threat Scale
We define "aggro" to be who the mob is attacking. A player has aggro, or pulls aggro, when the mob is attacking them. We define "threat" to be a numeric value that each mob has towards each player. Note that the target who has aggro is not necessarily the player with the highest threat.
To set a scale for threat, let 1 point of damage from a normal attack cause 1 point of threat, where the sense of normal will be clarified later. The threat values of some abilities are listed in the MPQs, and this 1:1 scale matches those abilities (e.g. feint, distracting shot, fade).
The Threat List
Imagine every mob as keeping a list of players and their threat values. If the mob is unaware of a player, that player will not be on the threat list. As soon as the mob becomes aware of a player, in the ways described below, they are put on the list with 0 threat. Knowing which players are on a mobs threat list and which mobs have a certain player on their threat lists is crucial in predicting a mobs behaviour.
A player can get on a mobs threat list in the following ways:
1) Body Pulling, i.e. getting close enough to a mob that is out of combat.
2) Body Pulling linked mobs. When you body pull a mob, youll also get onto the threat lists of all mobs that are linked to it. Note that after the pull they become unlinked; a second person attacking one of the mobs will only get on that mobs threat list after the pull.
3) Buffing a player that is on the mobs threat list. That is, casting a healing spell or other buff spell.
4) Direct damage or casting a debuff on the mob. Some debuffs, notably mind vision and hunters mark, wont put you on the mobs threat list.
5) Bosses in-combat pulse. For most high level instance bosses, every tick (2 seconds) every player in the instance is added to the boss threat list when the boss is in combat.
6) In combat proximity. Many mobs with secondary targeting or AOE abilities will add nearby players to their threat lists. For other mobs, as long as they are in combat you can stand on top of them and not get added to their threat list.
Aggro Transfer, Threat Decay
To prevent mobs rapidly swapping targets when many players have similar threat, a mob will stay on its current target unless another player has significantly higher threat. Suppose a mob has aggro on a certain player X. Then to pull aggro while in melee range, another player needs 110% of Xs threat. If the other player is outside melee range, they need 130% of Xs threat to pull aggro. This means than in general, once you have aggro it is easy to keep it, and once you lose aggro it is hard to regain it. It also stops two players attacking a mob from range and constantly swapping aggro between them, because as their threat increases, the 30% margin will be harder and harder to overcome.
Note that the 10% effect is determined only by your range, not the ability used. If you are generating threat from healing or a range ability such as Frostbolt, you will still pull aggro at 110% if you are within melee range of the mob.
In the normal course of events, threat does not decay. Once you are on a mobs threat list, youre there until its dead or you are, and your threat does not decay over time. There are of course mobs with specific abilities that reduce threat, and player abilities also, which do decrease your threat.
AOE Threat: Healing, Buffing, Power Gain
Each point of healing causes 0.5 threat, forgetting threat modifiers. Overhealing doesnt cause threat. Most buff spells cast on friendly players generate a small amount of threat. Gaining Power (Mana / Energy / Rage) also causes threat in most cases, for example taking a healing potion, or gaining rage from Bloodrage, or Energy from Thistle Tea. Certain spells are exempt, for example mana from Blessing of Wisdom or a Mana Spring totem doesnt cause threat, and there is no threat from the healing gained from Siphon Life. For normal abilities, each point of Mana is 0.5 threat, Rage is 5 threat, and Energy is unknown, probably 5. In the scheme of things, threat from power gain is usually irrelevant, unless you have consistent or burst values, such as taking a mana potion or having Fel Energy running.
These forms of buffs all have infinite range; they will cause threat to all mobs on whose threat list you are on. Furthermore, the threat caused is split equally among all the affected mobs. If you are on one mobs threat list, a 1000 point heal will cause 500 threat to that mob. If 5 mobs are aware of you, the same heal will cause 100 threat on each mob.
Note that threat caused from Power Gain is not affected by threat modifiers. Gaining 1 point of Rage will give 5 threat whether you are in Battle Stance or Defensive Stance.
Threat Modifiers: Common Modifiers, Interaction
Here are some of the more common threat modifiers and their values, assuming you have the maximum number of talent points in the talents mentioned:
Warrior in Defensive Stance / Druid in Bear Stance: x1.3
Warriors 5/5 Defiance / Druidss 5/5 Feral Instinct: x1.15 (in above stances only)
Warrior in Battle or Berserker Stance: x0.8
Rogue (passive, always on): x0.8
Blessing of Salvation: x0.7
Tranquil Air Totem: x0.8
Priests 5/5 Silent Resolve: x0.8 (spells)
Mages 3/3 Frost Channelling: x0.7 (frost spells)
Mages 2/2 Arcane Subtlety: x0.6 (arcane spells)
As of 1.12, all threat modifiers are multiplicative, which makes them independent. Blessing of Salvation "reduces your threat by 30%", which is implemented as "multiplies your threat by 70%". Two different modifiers just multiply on each other, so Blessing of Salvation + Arcanist 8/8 + Frost Channeling would be 0.7 x 0.85 x 0.7 = 41.65% threat. The primary effect of the 1.12 change is to stop several threat modifiers combining too powerfully; for example it was possible to achieve 0% threat generation using the Fetish of the Sand Reaver.
It is useful to consider the inverse multiplier, which is the increase in damage or healing potential as a result of a threat modifier. Suppose you have Blessing of Salvation on, for a 0.7 threat modifier. Then to get 1 point of threat, you can now do 1 / 0.7 = 1.43 points of damage. In other words, the Blessing of Salvation buff allows you to do 43% more damage for the same threat. Similarly, the Rogue passive modifier allows you to do 25% more damage for 1 threat. To combine them, just multiply 1.43 * 1.25 = 79% more damage for 1 point of threat, compared to a player with no threat modifiers.
Class Abilities and Talents in Detail
Warrior
Most warrior abilities add a fixed amount of threat when they land successfully. The following table gives the raw values, i.e. before the modifiers from battle stance or defensive stance, and ignores the damage done by the abilities.
Sunder Armor............260
Heroic Strike 8.........145
Heroic Strike 9 (AQ)....175
Revenge 5...............315
Revenge 6 (AQ)..........355
Shield Bash.............180
Shield Slam (1.11)......250
Thunder Clap............130
Demoralizing Shout.......43
Battle Shout.............55
Cleave..................100
For a non-tanking warrior against a single target, Cleave will give a lower threat per damage than heroic strike, but only if you have 3/3 Improved Cleave, and in any case the difference is marginal. To compare them, we can disregard the armour of the target and the autoattack components, since they will both be affected equally. Then Rank 9 Heroic Strike is 2.10 threat per damage, while 3/3 Improved Cleave is 1.91 threat per damage.
Battle Shout generates 55 threat for each player that is buffed; up to 5 people in your party and their pets, as long as they are on the relevant mob's threat list. For example if you buff a player that is out of combat, no threat is generated. Therefore in a tightly packed group, Battle Shout can rival Sunder Armor for threat, but as a buff the threat is split amongst all the mobs that are aware of you. On the other hand, Demoralizing Shout gives 43 threat to each affected mob. As long as there are 6 or more mobs affected, it will hold aggro as well or better than Sunder Armor.
Recently (1.11.x), the behaviour of Taunt has been buffed slightly. It now does three things:
1) Taunt debuff. The mob is forced to attack you for 3 seconds. Later taunts by other players override this.
2) You are given threat equal to the mob's previous aggro target, permanently. Importantly, you won't necessarily get as much threat as the highest person on the mob's list, only as much as whoever is currently tanking it.
3) You gain complete aggro on the mob at the instant you taunt. Usually you would need 10% more threat to gain aggro (see section 3), but a taunt now gives you instant aggro on the mob. Of course if other people are generating significant threat on the mob, they could exceed your threat by more than 10% before the taunt debuff wears off, and will gain aggro as soon as it does. There is no limit to the amount of threat you can gain from Taunt.
While Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow have a similar forced attack debuff to Taunt, they do not give the caster threat in the same way as Taunt, just fixed amounts.
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Disclaimer: This is not written by me.
Yep, I read that piece on WoWWiki.
I was looking at the threat values of the warrior abilities yesterday and seeing them again in Dajo's post again made me realise that they actually cause a lot less threat then I expected them too do.
Revenge ranks 6 is (90 (damage) + 355 (base threat)) * 1.45 = 645.25 (slightly less if the damage of the ability is mitigated and can only be used when the target dodges/parries/blocks which means you won't be able to use it consistantly).
And sunder is only 260 * 1.45 = 377.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since sunder costs 12 rage you probably won't be spamming them? Also because you dodge/parry/block lots of attacks resulting in less rage being build up?
So if a range class is doing 400DPS (which is doable right?), you will need to spam sunder every: 377 / (400 / 1.3 * 0.7) = 1.75 seconds if you want to keep it off a ranged class with salvation on (keeping revenge and aggro time out of the equation). I guessing this is fairly impossible. Can anyone confirm this?
400 sounds okee, maybe a tad low. Also you can spam sunder at it full 15 rage cost, if you get hit by mobs in MC you make quite a bit of rage
If you can indeed spam sunder armor....
The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds, so if you are spamming sunder that's: 260 * 1.45 / 1.5 = 251.3333... TPS
White damage with quel'sarrar and 1000 (buffed) AP = 124 DPS.
The worst TPS you can get is with 75% mitigation = 124 * 25% = 31 + 251.333.. = 282.333...
Which equals:
Melee aggro gain: 282.333... / 0.7 / 0.8 * 1.1 = 555 DPS
Ranged aggro gain: 282.333... / 0.7 * 1.3 = 524 DPS
This means any class would have to consistantly do well over 500DPS to get it off the tank.
So lets check that.
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I picked the lock because that class has by far the most damage potential because of there DOTs.
A decent lock with 400 +damage and 15% crit (with the ruin talent) will do:
Shadow bolt rank 10 = 510 damage avg + 400 = 910.
After crits: 910 + (910 * 0.15 * 2) = 1183 average damage per shadow bolt.
With talents the cast time of a shadow bolt is 2.5 seconds, which will give you: 1183 / 2.5 = 473 DPS.
Corruption with talents is instant (only 1.5 global cooldown).
822 + 400 over 18 seconds (+1.5 sec from global cooldown) = 63 DPS.
Curse of agony:
1044 + 400 over 24 sec (+1.5 sec from global cooldown) = 57 DPS.
With totals a sustainable DPS of: 473 + 63 + 57 = 593.
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So they can get it of the tank if they want too. However this is with all the right talents on the lock, (imp shadow bolt, imp corruption, ruin). And they can get 10% more with the master demonlogist talent in combination with a succabus, although I'd advice them to use the imp instead for -20% threat (less threat means you can nuke more).
But also note that the warrior in this example only uses sunder armor and is hardly doing any white damage. In a real situation they will also use revenge (very high threat) and use heroic strike as rage dump. Under the condition that the warrior has more rage then he can spend, there should be no way in hell that he is letting go; Save for some very unfortunate series of crits.
Can anyone check if I made a mistake anywhere and if the lock's stats are somewhat similar to someone with BWL gear?