Last night RG1 started out with clearing the last bit of BWL, and we than moved on to AQ40. After two tries on the first boss, we had a couple of people that had to leave due to starting early on work the following day. Since we had more than an hour left of the raiding time, it was decided to go to Onyxia.
Than suddenly there were a lot of other folks that "had" to go as well, with the lame excuse that "I'd rather have an hour of extra sleep than waste my time on Onyxia". Think we lost at least 10 people to that.
This made Bastet a bit frustrated, which I very much can understand, so he disbanded the raid. It would be a bit understatement to say that I got very angry because of this (and I'm not blaming Bastet, just so that is 100% clear, I understand why he did as he did). I thought about posting something yesterday, but I've said to myself to never post something in such and "unstable" mental state - it mostly results in flaming and poor arumenting.
So here goes:
I have understanding and respect for those that had to leave because of early work the next day (they stated that they would leave while we still were in AQ). The only thing I think perhaps they could have done a bit "better", was to ask/inform an officer that they had to leave (and by which reason), and let the officers inform the raid about it (instead of just "running off" all of a sudden, leaving many folks wondering what happened).
What I don't understand and don't respect is those that left when they found out that we would do Onyxia. The excuse I saw somebody use in raid chat was that "I would rather have an hour extra sleep than go to Onyxia". That is just plain lame! If you are fit for continuing in AQ, there are no reason what so ever that you shouldn't be fit for doing Onyxia instead.
I don't know all the officers reasons for still doing Onyxia, but from what I've picked up on the forum by talking with folks, the guild earns quite a lot of money from selling blue items that drops from Onyxia (and also in MC). That money is something we need to be able to do BWL runs (which are very expensive - several hundred golds each week if I've understood it correct). So doing Onyxia (and MC for that sake), is something we need to do to be able to BWL, not to mention that there are still people that need items in there.
If I was the one making the decisions yesterday, there would have been a severe DKP penalty for those that left when it was known that we were going to Onyxia. I understood it from the Officers that that's not the way they want to do things now - some said "let's instead punish those that left by making 'em do Onyxia on Thursday (or some other day) instead".
So the result of this behavior from certain individuals, is that we're gonna miss one hour or more on either Thursday or Sunday that instead could have been used to progress further in MC/BWL, meaning more time for AQ - so I hope you are happy with yourself :rant:
This was all I had to share at this moment - just needed to get out some steam. I hope people can spend some time thinking about this matter, and also bring some constructive opinions and arguments into the discussion :smile:
Hear hear, bob.
Ive been thinking about the exact same thing before, it happened last time we went for onyxia aswell, i actually think it was the exact same excuse.
You guys are a hopefully proud members of Silver Oak Guardians Raid Group 1, now start acting like one. Raiding can be boring and felt like doing the same over and over. Onyxia might be easy and doable with a very small Raidgroup, well so much more reason to go there, its done in what? 20 minuttes, and you earn like 4-5 gold. AND! you benefit the guildbank by a great part.
My suggestion would be, if the guildbank needs money for the BWL runs, would it be an option to do 2x20 Man onyxia runs? it would definetly make it more atttractive for me, seeing as i would earn double the money.
Bonus: Double of everything! including the dificulty, which would tempt me even more.
The other side: It will become way harder yes. and people would actually need to be focussed :narnar: .
As a small summary, if you enlisted as being a RG1 member, then start act like one. (Talking about those that didnt bothered to stay)
well in RG2, ppl r willing to stay for raggy after we kill golemagg but i noticed that once the leader decides to do ony instead, there is a sudden rush of some ppl leaving etc when they blatantly r able to stay. things like this gets me angry too.
Maybe it would be an idea (and time consuming I think) to keep track of the attendance per instance. That way you can see who and how many time somebody joined an instance.
Something like an overview per instance.
Select Instance - Select Date - Show attended or Show not attended
and a nice add-on
Choose penalty - Raid Kick
- -50 dkp
- Yell @ World channel how lame he is
- Guild kick
- MT for this evening untill 0 durability
:devil:
What troubles me the most is the constant nagging of peeps about everything, if i'm correct there was a afk officer yesterday and the officer decides when raid is called if i'm not wrong. The reason officers are there is cause they make the decicions and if i recall its not our job (guardians)
so if people tend to leave i think they allready have discussed this with the afk officer like i did yesterday and i don't think ill have to explain why i want to leave at some point to all of the raid true? And if you look at my attendance i think you will see ill never leave a raid without a reason.
Only soulbringer and menedil told me ahead of time they had to go, however something like 12 ppl had to go all off a sudden. And that just ****ed me off, and a lot of ppl with me. Now we WILL do ony w/ a good group, and as bob said, if ppl would have stayed we could have done a nice run and saved a hour on another day.
Im like, well we all did join certin rank, which means a certin number of raid days. So it often comes as a surprise to me people suddently have to leave earlier, when they havent said to afk officer before the raid started.
By beeing a defender or guardian you commit yourself to raid 19.15-00.00 (approx) - Then again I dont understand the message "Well Im off then, im not going to ony, would rather / im too tired / ect."
I can understand if you say before raid to the afkofficer/RL/officer that you have to leave at 22.00 for a valid reason. Im ok with that... But I have ZERO respect for people suddently leaving. You know you have to raid, you know the days, you know the hours... What's not to understand?
- People agreed to this when they got accepted as defender/guardian.
Thats my generel observation. :happy:
Well soz for maybe over reacting but i couldn't look out my eyes normal yesterday tho i stayed in AQ because there was no replacement for me, (btw i had a splitting headache) From what i hear now nobody else then me and menedil used the AFK officers methode wich i think is not the good way to solve things. Still don't think that penalty's would do the trick, and maybe a small amount of minus dkp for leaving without a valid reason would help a bit.
Quote from: Soulbringerx............Still don't think that penalty's would do the trick, and maybe a small amount of minus dkp for leaving without a valid reason would help a bit.
Minus DKP for leaving without a valid / pre-raid informed reason. I like the sound of that. If you suddently have to leave due to non-valid reason you get a small ammount of minus dkp.
Tho I like the idea, it's kinda hard to administrate.
What's a valid reason?
But this will sure make people tell if they have to go early = easier planning for Officers = easier to tell queue when there's a spot open = better planing for people in queue = hopefully always a full raid.
Quote from: Soulbringerxso if people tend to leave i think they allready have discussed this with the afk officer like i did yesterday and i don't think ill have to explain why i want to leave at some point to all of the raid true?
You do not have to explain your reasons for leaving early to the whole raid, that's for shure. As long as you talk with the officers
in advance (and preferably before/at the start of the raid), than it shouldn't be a problem.
Just to clearify things, you can when you leave say something like
"I'm off folks, have talked with the officers, so see you around", or something like that.
Perhaps also the AFK officer (or whoever is in charge for that part) can say in raid when folks leave that they have talked with the officers and been granted permission to do so?
Quote from: SazgulWhat's a valid reason?
As long as you have noticed an officer a bit more than 5 minutes (I mean, you should give them notice good time in advance, pref as long in advance as possible - if you're going early to work the day after, you
know even
before the raid starts that you will have to leave early, and thus you can let the officers know
before the raid starts, so that they can ease the planning) before you have to leave (emergencies of course excepted, as usual), that's reason good enough. One just have to trust peoples honesty at this point.
oops, what I saw was some officer saying 'one more try at skeram' which i took for 'raid will finish after this try if it fails' since usually we keep going until it's down or we disband, coupled with the fact that i saw alot of peopel leaving, it loked very much like the raid was over, I apologise for my absence, purely mistaken communication
I've been calling for a dkp penalty for a while now.
-50dkp won't hurt anyone however, it needs to be stiff enough to make people aware of their responsibility to their fellow guildmembers.
-100dkp ought to be enough, given it could make the difference between you getting loot or not.
Carrot and the stick - its time for the stick...
DKP penalty is the most stupid thing i have ever heard and it should never ever be implemented.
Lets make a list over what the DKP system is for:
Distributing loot
Lets make a list over what the DKP system is not for:
List over attendance
Officers playtool for punishing people
System to fix attendance
A DKP system can ruin attendance but it will never be able to fix attendance if the people don't want to show up for the raid, be it repair costs, boring or anything else that makes you not want to raid.
No DKP penalty except zeroing out a person has any effect at all really and it should be enough penalty that you didn't show up since you will not get any DKP for the day.
the problem isn't the DKP system, the raid times, the raid system, the invite system or anything else. THE PROBLEM IS THE PEOPLE, and only way to fix that is to start kicking those that don't show the will to continue raiding and get people that are willing to do the work, not only pick up the loot.
The problem with DKP is that once you hit a high amount you dont care much, cause you know you'll get whatever stuff before others... and 12 DKP for killing onyxia certainly aint going to change that fact!
Thats why i think there should be a seperate DKP pool for each instance, discluding BWL, MC and Ony which should be sharing. that way people that dont show up for AQ40 wont be able to recieve loot from there when they decide to show up after all (assuming they are no. 1 on DKP)
Right now i could just skip all AQ40 runs, and my i wouldnt loos much DKP from it, but if i on the other hand didnt get DKP at all to spend inside AQ40 i would be the last to get anything, ( i know AQ40 dont have that good loot for some classes, but i sure like alot inside) But take FX Naxx, this is pure example no offense meant:
We start clearing for the first time at Thursday, we wipe over and over, but in the end get the trash right, and make it to the first boss. the spider thingie, People stay and wipe and it all looks grim, the day after we all go there again, except for our Main Tank from the day before, which had some random reason for not coming, not much luck today either, but then suddenly our Main tank shows up and we kill the boss, and voila a nice Something drops and the loot goes to he that have contributed most overall, not to the one that nescesarily have contributed most to learning naxx. or even worse, one been on vacation (fair, we all need it :) ) comes to Naxx and gets loot before someone else, which happens to have been there like 5 times by now.
This would also make it way easier for newcomers to recieve loot in a rather "new" instance we are doing, seeing as people still spend alot DKP inside.
As it is right now, people that are on the top, stay on the top. i know its a bit off subject. Else the system need a revamp, cause it dosnt work you can say screw Onyxia... i dont think penalty is a good way to go. but its better than the current apparently!
I agree with Drazila, DKP penalties won't fix the attendence problems you are having. DKP becomes rather worthless after some time (like in RG1); everyone has so much that the order in which people receive loot is sort of pre-determined anyway. DKP penalties won't change much to this. Besides, you will probably keep raiding the same dungeon over and over till everyone got what he needs.
I don't really believe in a 'new' DKP system either. It will just be more work for the officiers and it doesn't really address the main problem.
In my opinion the only way to 'fix' the attendance problem is to kick/demote the people that are contineously causing problems and hire new ones. I'm assuming they are just not attending the raids that won't benefit them in any way (either in terms of loot or experience). They all knew what the requirements were when they signed up for the raid group, if they can't live up to there end of the bargain, bye bye :byebye: .
I hope RG2 doesn't go down the same road....
I see your point very good Drazila, and after giving it some thought I think I mostly agree with you as well. DKP penalty won't solve the problem, cause atm DKP ain't worth much for many since they've got too much of it, and also they've got most of the gear they'd want.
But something needs to be done. It's only that monitoring who constantly drops out when we're doing Ony for instance, I believ lies a bit work in, and I think the Officers have plenty to do as is. But giving some folks a warning, and if nothing improves, demote/kick could be concidered...
Quote from: BastetOnly soulbringer and menedil told me ahead of time they had to go, however something like 12 ppl had to go all off a sudden. And that just ****ed me off, and a lot of ppl with me. Now we WILL do ony w/ a good group, and as bob said, if ppl would have stayed we could have done a nice run and saved a hour on another day.
I told you too :)