A thing that has been on my mind now for a while is the dkp system and fairness. The dkp system is designed to promote fair distribution of loot within a raid, based on the effort and time put into the instance by the individual player.
However, since time has gone on, new people have joined and are working there arses off, someone such as Xyco (sorry for using you as an example matey) Earned just over 1500 DKP, and Kreuz who has earned well into the millions and zillions. The DKP system is now allowing fair loot to be distributed to the new people, within the new instances that SoG are trying to overcome.
I've been thinking this for a while, but thought itd just be me bitch, then i saw Luthor's post so i thought, can't just be me thinking this.
What i wrote below was a copy and paste job i put in mene's thread 20 mins ago. So no need to comment on that in there.
QuoteLuthor has outlined serious problems with our DKP system.
We use the same DKP system for all 3 instances.
MC
BWL
AQ
And probs naxx when it comes.
As we all know the DKP is hugely mofo inflated. Im using this as an example (please no shouting at me)
Im going to use the druids Xyco and Vargen as examples here.
Xyco joined the guild couple of months ago, dedicated to raids, not seen him miss one yet, and holy hell he joins the guild and guess what? hes 3000 dkp behind Vargen, ouch in the face?
Thats equivilant to atleast 15 + drops. Before you all start shout "but lol, voretex he has been to more raids than Xyco, so he should get the loot first"
Oki oki, i agree with you there, vargen overall has put more work in that Xyco for all the instances (due to xyco joining later) BUT, hes done less work than vargen in AQ40. At present all the druids have ATLEAST 5 drops on xyco in any way or form, in BWL, some may say thats fine, but in AQ40 i think ouch thats a bitch for Xyco. He's put the SAME, if not more effort in than the rest of us druids, yet because of the insane amount of inflation from the DKP, he will always (assuming we all have the same attendance) be the LAST in line for any drops, providing all of us druids want it.
Tis just a big suggestion. I think we're the only guild i know that has the same dkp for all 3/4 40 man raid instances.
It would work great, if we all joined at the same time, but we didnt, some people have joined almost a year after the first DKP was issued.
It all does make sense, and i feel sorry for people like Xyco who have no chance in hell of getting loot in AQ40 for a long time.
*edit, before u say " butt yooooo?! heee am got leggings in AQ40. He got them because no one wanted them at the time "
You know it makes sense
Sep dkp systems ftw
*edit 2 - cant believed i typed that much at 2:30am - its alot for me aiiiight - "
- Discuss the need for separate DKP system to cut down the inflation and unfairness to the newer guildies among us for the new instance we encounter
DKP is much more inflated than it was before, a full BWL clear for RG1 makes in excess of 200 dkp, where as before when I raided with RG1, we spent the same amount of time, and made like.. 30 dkp in MC. People who have been in SoG a month or so have made nearly as much dkp as I did when I was in SoG raiding for over half a year :P
Well that's a potion for attention. But also remember the following that when a new member joins he/she will get the loot that other already have. That is only for peeps ofc that are green or blue geared. Equip someone with T1 makes the distance pretty big to the toppers of the dkp of theire class. I was thinking of this in the way for Gallahan. Now RG2 does MC so the dkp winning isn't as much as RG1 in BWL. Although even RG2 get's a start on high dkp earnings. As I have 766 dkp now...that means I have my items for the dungeons we attend. If Gallahan would join RG2 at the stage RG2 was @ Nefarian then he would have a pain in the a$$ getting the dkp on the same lvl. Maybe the costs of items must be adjusted to up or boss killing dkp should be lower. I know the dkp issue is already know at the officers but was wandering how they come up with some good alternatives...... This is pretty a hard one. Maybe talk to some GM from other guilds...
I'm curious about the answers... :flirty:
Quote from: KnabbelWell that's a potion for attention. But also remember the following that when a new member joins he/she will get the loot that other already have. That is only for peeps ofc that are green or blue geared. Equip someone with T1 makes the distance pretty big to the toppers of the dkp of theire class. I was thinking of this in the way for Gallahan. Now RG2 does MC so the dkp winning isn't as much as RG1 in BWL. Although even RG2 get's a start on high dkp earnings. As I have 766 dkp now...that means I have my items for the dungeons we attend. If Gallahan would join RG2 at the stage RG2 was @ Nefarian then he would have a pain in the a$$ getting the dkp on the same lvl. Maybe the costs of items must be adjusted to up or boss killing dkp should be lower. I know the dkp issue is already know at the officers but was wandering how they come up with some good alternatives...... This is pretty a hard one. Maybe talk to some GM from other guilds...
I'm curious about the answers... :flirty:
Tier2 costs 200/220, where Tier1 only cost 80/85.
Then how come the differences are so big @ RG1.... the 200/220 dkp costs per item isn't helping out the big differences then. Can it be that there are less drops there? There are 6 gear items that drop there (spoken about T2 in BWL) could it be the lack of good drops? Also some drops aren't an improvement then I think.
It's because, like Vargen, some people have been in the guild from the start and have been earning DKP since then. Then Xyco joins and hes 3.000 DKP behind.
Yes the current system has an inflation problem, but there are other systems which give pritty much the same (or different) problems, or just in a different form. There has been extended chats between the officers, but its proven extreemly hard to come up w/ a system that works good for us.
I think the Current system is working Okey, not superb but okey, and really, including a Separate DKP system for each instance would not make it perfect, but it would exclude some of the problems within the current.
Our Current DKP site already holds Data for which instance we attended to, im sure its no problem. if it is i would like to help with the manual process of moving the DKP on to another Database. so it could be splitt and people that already have attended in AQ40 would be rewarded by it.
I would also think that a reset of the system is unfair for those that put countless hours in raiding. (including myself, or at least getting there)
It is already "working as intended" in AQ20/ZG sure it got flaws, but hey its way better than roll, or even a combined pool.
Im very glad you took up the discussion Voretex, yes its been in my mind for a very very long period of time. ive talked to Bastet about it, and he also made some good points. But i think the current way of doing DKP is leaving someone behind that are really doing an effort.
Also further supports my reasons for Separate DKP pools are our new random raids (yes i know we had it before). FX: Because of the randomess it is harder to have people staying away on certain raids. because they want the DKP for that dungeon, so they can get there phat lewt inside. but hey, why not satisfy with a BWL raid, it pays the best DKP and leaves my infront so i can get that nice piece from AQ40 when it drops.
Luthor
Creating a seperate system for every dungeon (or for every future dungeon, since a DKP reset at this point won't make people happy), will solve this problem to some extend. However this might prevent people from attending raids that won't gain them anything. Which is already a problem at the moment anyway, so I don't really expect this to become worse if the officiers dicide to implement this change.
Augmenting our current DKP system with a variation on the zero sum DKP system might also help to keep everything balanced and aid in preventing DKP from becoming worthless.
You mean the one that works like real economy? 1 gets in 1 gets out?
Trust me when i say zero sum has a lot of problems. we had hours and hours worth of discussion on that one. But also remember that what ever choise we make (yes the discussion on this is still on going) it will also reflect on RG2.
Yes, every system is unfair to some, that's why I said 'augmenting'. It definately won't work in it's 'pure' form.
I was about something like this:
Just keep awarding DKP for boss kills, attendence and so on. However if you distribute the DKP that someone spends on an item between everyone that whispered for the item (thus 'lost' something by not getting it), you will prevent people from getting to far ahead of the rest, but still reward players for their contribution.
Anyway it's just a thought.
And for those interested how the different DKP systems work; you can find a good explaination here: DKP Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKP_(point_system)).
Indeed all DKP systems have flaws and our current system has major flaws. We could change to a different system I guess with lesser flaws like for example the zero-sum system which imo has only 1 minor flaw.
What Kreuz is politely saying is that the officers did not find a better system at the moment than what we have already. One ma's minor flaw is another's major flaw and vice versa. However it is something that we continually disuss and future changes are always possible.
TL.
I don't have too much knowledge about DKP systems, but I too have noticed that there are major drawbacks with the one we're using now. With inflation perhaps being the biggest flaw.
So a change here would be good if you ask me (as little as I know though :tongue:)
Quote from: KreuZthe zero-sum system which imo has only 1 minor flaw.
I have read a bit about zero-sum, and it indeed looks like one of the better systems. I also had a long chat with Drazila at a party some time ago where he shared a few thoughts about some minor modifications one could add to zero-sum to make it even better.
But what is this one flaw you're thinking about Kreuz?
The fact that it only gives DKP when someone buys an item in the instance. This is fixed if you go over to a "Zero-sum hour" dkp system where it's divided to all the hours you used in instances that week. It still is a minor flaw.
What others might also think of as a flaw is the fact that the inflation is so low that some will indeed be in minus DKP, so the new members will be over you in DKP for a small while perhaps. Some might call this a flaw, and others might think it's good.
The current DKP system isnt too bad.
We just need seperate ones for each instance. That would solve most of the issues.
If so then how do you implement it?
Forget about dkp for MC? Let the DKP stand as it is for BWL? Start a totally fresh DKP count for AQ and Naxx?
To the officers: given we will be starting NAxx fairly soon, would it be possible to trial DKP for it separately to the current account? Say for the first two months of the runs there, and then decide if it was worth it or not.
Quote from: Voretex;143570The current DKP system isnt too bad.
We just need seperate ones for each instance. That would solve most of the issues.
if we set different DKP for every instance ppl who already have everything from MC and BWL won't join anymore there tho ... many ppl don't attend MC even if they get DKP mind if they get nothing
random raids should mean that isnt an issue.
Exactly Mene.
People that currently don't attend to MC, whatever there reason might be, will still not attend if we change the DKP system, BUT! whats the flaw with the DKP system here? i don't see how that is the system flawed. Rather the player that are.
Luthor
Well. They still have to attend to raids. They cant just skip MC and BWL because then their attendance will drop too low.
'all' you have to do is Separate the DKP from AQ / BWL / MC
That shouldnt be so hard? It might take a bit of manual work ? if thats not possible u can easily work out the dkp earned from each individual by doing simple multiplication if theres no way to export the MC dkp to a separate DKP site.
This wont solve the inflation problems, but then again the inflation problems wont be so much of an issue if all instances are separate.
QuoteThis wont solve the inflation problems, but then again the inflation problems wont be so much of an issue if all instances are separate.
Inflation WILL happen again as soon as someone leaves the guild and a new person comes in
Then the new person have small chances of getting the loot fast
Quote from: Padding;143762Inflation WILL happen again as soon as someone leaves the guild and a new person comes in
Then the new person have small chances of getting the loot fast
Unless it's a dungeon where most everyone got everything. Then you can get the equipment ultra fast. I bet most items in MC get DEed by RG1 now.
Quote from: Padding;143762Then the new person have small chances of getting the loot fast
As aopposed to a zero sum/zero sum hour system whereby the new person has a better chance than 50% of the existing raid irrespective of effort or even their longevity with the guild.
That's what I love about these systems, they all have their own, beautifully unique problems.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;143768As aopposed to a zero sum/zero sum hour system whereby the new person has a better chance than 50% of the existing raid irrespective of effort or even their longevity with the guild.
Could see that as a possible problem - but tbh, I don't think it would really be a problem:
If you look at the reason why somebody is below 0 dkp, that would be because they have gotten one or more items in the past, which means they've already gotten something "in return of" their effort. If than a new person joins in and starts with 0 dkp, as soon as he gets one item, he'll drop like a rock on the list, and it's all "balanced" again.
There's also a pretty good chance that the first item a new guy gets, is one that everybody else have from before, which means that no "old" members loose anything when the new guy gets said item.
The result is that new members will get a first item pretty fast (which can be a nice "carrot on a stick"), and after that they will be "back in the" line as fair would be.
At least it sounds to me like one of the better systems :smile:
Quote from: Threbrilith;143776At least it sounds ...like one of the better systems
....and at that point we start getting into the *real* detail. :laugh:
TL.
Inflation isnt just caused by new members leaving. DKP is horrifically complicated. And has alot to do with maths, at the moment the items are far to cheap =). But thats not zee point.
If we have separate systems for each instance, its gonna solve alot of problems. Then we can work on the more minor ones from there.
Lets just do FFA and fastest finger, should be alright.
Were making points here, and what?
People seem to think of this as a joke?
Menedil left the guild, for what reason i can only guess, but i sure think this issue was one of his concerns.
Yes were supposed to have a good time, but how can you have it in a moment of grief. At least i think he was one of the best contributions to Silver Oak Guardians.
We have amased huge amounts of DKP... more anyone could ever spend. because they will earn more!
If we split the pools, there can still be made loot rules, to prevent new people. FX: grapping Tier 3 before Gorion. the rule could be easy, untill you paid for (maybe 4 parts?, since 8 parts could take forever) tier 2 loot, your last in queue.
But when the person this new person attends to every of these damn raids, he will eventually amass DKP as fast as anyone else, he just arent eligible for loot YET. But when he reach the amount of T2 items. he can start getting stuff before some of the elder members. but hey IMO that is 100% fair, he after all got DKP enough. this way people will hit minus DKP, yes but only for a short time. because there are not only 1 new member, the one that just got loot, will just be behind in the queue. rather Fair IMO, but the new guy with no T2 FX, will still be last in queue.
Luthor!
Djezus luthor chill, its still under discussion (as said above), and since its a delicate subject it might be for a while.
Instead of beeing so rude about ramming this through how about you put up a constructed critism or a nice alternative for the system?
Quote from: Sinap;143806Lets just do FFA and fastest finger, should be alright.
/signed :laugh:
TL.
Quote from: Bastet;143913Djezus luthor chill, its still under discussion (as said above), and since its a delicate subject it might be for a while.
And in addition this is not a thread about Menedil's departure. But we do continue to discuss and look for a better way forward. It's not exactly black & white.
TL.
if you plan your dkp wisely, you will not have a problem. plan for the future, take only the items you plan to use for a long time. (if you need help in doing that send me a /w)
sure new ppl might think its unfair, but wouldnt the zero system be more unfair to the other members who devoted circa 1 year for the raid progress of the guild? (remember that without the devotion of the older members, we wouldnt be doing bwl nor aq nor will be starting naxx and niether having 2 raidgroups)
thats my 2c
My oh my... read the first lines.., and reply? is that how it works. i actually put up a system. i actually offered my help, to move data from one databse to another in a past reply.
If we split the pools, there can still be made loot rules, to prevent new people. FX: grapping Tier 3 before Gorion. the rule could be easy, untill you paid for (maybe 4 parts?, since 8 parts could take forever) tier 2 loot, your last in queue.
Quote from self: "But when the person this new person attends to every of these damn raids, he will eventually amass DKP as fast as anyone else, he just arent eligible for loot YET. But when he reach the amount of T2 items. he can start getting stuff before some of the elder members. but hey IMO that is 100% fair, he after all got DKP enough. this way people will hit minus DKP, yes but only for a short time. because there are not only 1 new member, the one that just got loot, will just be behind in the queue. rather Fair IMO, but the new guy with no T2 FX, will still be last in queue."
But okey, if you wanna read what you wanna read. i can never convince you otherwise.
Luthor.
One persons comment is never a comment for a larger group, so people commenting should only be taken for comments from themselves
On a general note, i have to say that the DKP system is still being debated, but if we are changing it its not gonna be an easy decision, so it needs to be debated thorougly
I can however say that im listening to what all people are saying, and that also have an effect on my opinions
Luthor's system might have some drawbacks, ppl that are unable to bid are able to build up dkp, it might take a long while and eventualy they will be as far above me as i am above them now, with the differance they are last to join, where i put my heart and soul in this guild for more then a year. Could work, could **** a ton of ppl off.
But, have they not earned it? after all its only inside this particular instance, and so, they have earned there DKP inside there. just not able to purchase stuff for it.
I didnt follow the entire discussion, but ppl seem to forget how complex dkp is. And if the officers mess this discussion up theres a risk that a lot of ppl will leave.
We now use a simple, easy system that has one flaw, namely that ppl gain more dkp then they can possibly spend. This means that new players cannot catch up on dkp, or those who could not always attend due to several reasons.
Now using the link earlyer in this post i took a quick peak and found several systems that all have thier own unique flaws.
Bid system sounds nice, but ppl can make agreements not to bid much on class items so they have a high pool for rings etc. Also the cowtrade during raids takes far longer then just checking who is highest. Nice, but i want to raid, not attend a slow moving auction. I dont fancy adding up an hour to our raid due to loot or posibly not beeing able to do a MC/BWL run in one night anymore
Zero sum, as kreuz sugested looks nice, theres no inflation, but what if there is a new lad joining and he needs all his MC gear? He will be the only one buying items and thus will dig a big hole for himselfs. This might be worse then starting at 0 dkp in the current system.
Now, one of the solutions i see is a split system for each instance, providing the attendance will be met, which historicly looking for RG1 hasnt been a strong side of us, ppl tend not to care for certain fights, and now at least DKP gives some reason to go.
In short, i dont see a better system, but if ppl want a change splitting the systems per instance might be the best option. For this will get rid of the problem of rewarding people in AQ40 and naxx for something they did over a year ago in molten core.
I will take myself as an example i think i have contributed a fair amount to rg1 over the last couple of months but my beginning has been rather weak due to real life health issues keeping me away from raiding or forcing me to log off early
Now i find it only fair that those who have attended all those raids i have missed to get priority to loot in mc and maybe even in bwl
But for naxx and aq40 i will do just as much as every other member but i will have to wait for them to get the loot first, that i do find unfair
People who have joined the guild later will have the same problem
And to further spice up the debate here is a different idea
Perhaps we could just shave some DKP off the top getting everybody closer together
Say a small percentage of removed dkp every week off the top
For those at the bottem it will be very little dkp, but those at the top will have a lot removed in figures getting people closer together but still keeping attendance in mind
@ luthor, yes they earned up, but beeing 2nd in line after some1 w/ a lot of dkp is not fun, spes when killing new bosses, and it wont help that the person above you is a relative new guild members. (hard to word what i want to say)
@ marduk, most excelent post, some great ideas in there :clap:
edit
QuoteSay a small percentage of removed dkp every week off the top
For those at the bottem it will be very little dkp, but those at the top will have a lot removed in figures getting people closer together but still keeping attendance in mind
(didn't saw marduk posted similar idea so edited it)
I've seen some systems work with -% at the end of the month too, and it looks litle more fair then the current one. So have to agree with this idea of marduk.
gr Lumi
Quote from: Marduk;143942Perhaps we could just shave some DKP off the top getting everybody closer together
Say a small percentage of removed dkp every week off the top
For those at the bottem it will be very little dkp, but those at the top will have a lot removed in figures getting people closer together but still keeping attendance in mind
Just wanted to comment on this as well:
I've read that this is something than can be added to various of DKP systems, and the result of it is actually not too bad. By for instance multiplying everybody's DKP with 0.7 (or some other number between 0 and 1), you'll end up with a relative decrease in everybody's DKP. The ones on top will still be on top, and the ones on the bottom will still be last, but the gap between 'em will get smaller, which ain't a bad thing.
This could be done once every 2nd week, once a month, or just every now and than - whatere makes sence :smile:
Quote from: Marduk;143942Now, one of the solutions i see is a split system for each instance, providing the attendance will be met, which historicly looking for RG1 hasnt been a strong side of us, ppl tend not to care for certain fights, and now at least DKP gives some reason to go.
amen. thats all it needs