I really want to know what is the meassure of raid leaders' descitions on giving loots
1)DKP?
2)Class based items?
3) Best friends and/or in RL friends gets first?
I know this will bring a wide discussion on, but lets bring on the pain.
Firstly I don't give a damn about loot or color of loots, loots are electronic data restored on Blizzard hardware which may in any day disfunction and maybe one day the whole game goes down forever.
the thing that is important is that 40 persons put time together and make a raid to get such things not 1 not 5 and not 10 but 40 people. I know officers and raid leaders are trying their best to make everyone saticfied and it's a really hard job. but it pains so see a blade that is very much served in the hand of a warrior or rogue, is given to a hunter, even a paladin can get more Dps out of it than a hunter.http://www.thottbot.com/?i=36128 so my question is what is the reason that a hunter wants this?
the color? stats? tell me how often do you get in melee range to use that?
you may consider this whine or rant but it's true, and truth is always bitter. this blade is a warrior/rogue weapon. I see no reason for a hunter wanting this, than of course the color.
guess I can just save us all another thread and ask here:
Why are Paladins priortised on Sulfaras?
In the hands of an Arms Warrior, the raid benefits from it, while a Pally will not use it in raids.
I am not asking for a Warrior priority on it, I just want equal chances.
Myanmar, I'm not just talking about loot, but more the thoughts of those giving it away like this. 40 man make a raid and imho all 40 should be happy dividing the rewards afterwards. If SoG was a newly made amateur guild I would accept this, but come on we all know what item should go to which class, i mean duh...
P.S Before you all open the flammings, I won't care who gets what as long as it really benefits them and improve them. The above mentioned item does NOT improve or benefit a hunter. now all I'm asking is to be more carefull in future (comes expansion and new legendaries/epics) descissions regarding loot. I might not offended or pi.ssed that much but there surely are people who do so.
Actually there is no priority on loot anymore, at least in RG1. We got tired off all the whining and complaining, so we decided DKP rules, let the one who wants something fend for him or her self.
The sword mentioned, I have no idea why that would go to a hunter, or why a hunter would even consider wearing that, but that is up to that induvidual to decide. And that decision should be respected. As for Sulfuras, warriors would be considered, but Legendary items are given to the most trusted person, and the person that has in the raid leaders eyes, earned it. We have so far seen 2 legendary weapons dissapear out of guild, and we certainly don't want to see any more. For the Sulfuras we really haven't had any others wanting it, so the problem isn't really there is it? We have had one warrior whisper when the second one dropped, but he was denied. I might add that he isn't in guild anymore either, so that proves the choice right. Well allmost, since Mazii left too.
Bottom line. Legendary items are treated special, as they are special. Good luck on the next one I guess, if that is what you were implying.:flirty:
Quote from: Vargen;146501Actually there is no priority on loot anymore, at least in RG1. We got tired off all the whining and complaining, so we decided DKP rules, let the one who wants something fend for him or her self.
If that is so then we are clear. I was affraid it was the 3rd point, because if it was so... well I don't even want to talk about it, I just don't expect to see such things here in SoG. the reason I am still in SoG is that everyone is treated equaly, if not then it's not a place to stay.
That is the way it is. If you have the DKp you get the item you request. I as ML won't care if you need it or not. I will maybe occationaly ask a question if the item is totally unsuited, but in the end it is up to the one that wants it. It's just not woth getting into the discussions that occur from prioritizing. Sure someone else might be better off, but if thye haven'tgot the DKP, too bad.
Shadowscream: as you might know, most of the officers, or atleast the officers that stayed in the guild the longest are RL mates. I used to be an officer too, but my time didnt allow me to dedicate myself enough to the officer position and responsibilities.
Though, even if they are RL mates and live in almost the same city, they have always been careful as not to favour anyone amongst themselves. I`m glad these officers (all of them) are handling their job in a profecional and neutral way when it comes to the loot distribution. So on your third point, I assure you that that is not the case.
Hell, I`m sure I told Raggy or Vargen I`d do them personal "favours" :dribble: to get my tier 3 even if I`m not raiding :P - But rest assured, I never get to be taken serious. Tbh, thats the way I played my cards from day nr 1. I`m just a wandering swordsman who only thinks about getting his stomache filled, getting a drink and wooing them ladies AND (ofc) seeing to that there is no injustice going on. 8)
Quote from: Vargen;146501Actually there is no priority on loot anymore, at least in RG1.
Is this not the case in RG2? And if so, why is it different here?
QuoteIs this not the case in RG2? And if so, why is it different here?
I dont think it is, i just think Vargen wasnt sure
QuoteBottom line. Legendary items are treated special, as they are special
We've seen way to many Legendary stuff go out of the guild to not treat them special. We need to consider carefully who gets legendary stuff, since mats for Sulforon f.ex. is around 6-7000g on the AH if you where to buy the mats the guild provide
And yet even w/ hand picking the players that get legendarys its still appears to be impossible to keep them in the guild where they should be....
RG2 still use priority on items.
For example brutality blade still has rogue/warrior prio on it.
Why on earth a hunter gets Vis'kag ?
It's a nice PVP weapon.
And yes, RG2 still use priority on items.
Quote from: Greatdanes;146653It's a nice PVP weapon.
you've got to be kiddin me?
the Dkp part I get but please.. there are rogues and warriors who can get more pvp goodness out of that weapon.
now it is over and grats the dude who got it, but there were rogues in and warriors there who could have gotten that and they didn't including me.
now if what I'm saying in wrong please tell me.
if
QuoteAnd yes, RG2 still use priority on items.
then tell me which classes are prioritised on http://www.thottbot.com/?i=36128
Shi.t rants eh? if anyone has something to add, feel free to come here and say it instead of calling this thread Shi-t rant.
this makes one unconfortable to come to forums and talk about problems in guild.
Vis'kag is the best sinister strike weapon for rogues up to BWL where only a Chromatically Tempered Sword is better. I really really was surprised a hunter got it last night.
Quote from: Greatdanes;146653It's a nice PVP weapon.
And yes, RG2 still use priority on items.
Its a 2% chance to proc...and furthermore only 240 damage...that doesn't sound much of a good pvp weap in the hands of a ranged class.
Zomg and I thought I was alone about this matter, thanks alot Keltor :clap:
^^ I have a rogue myself hehe.
I'm not saying hunters shouldn't get this. If you want it, go for it. I'm just correcting people for where I think they are wrong and that its almost useless for a ranged class. Tbh I would rather use a lvl 10 dagger with +2 agi over this if I was playing hunter.
First of all please try to respect the Marshalls decissions. When we give out loot we try to first of all balance the raid and its members.
The Eye of Sulfuras (http://dkp.silveroakguardians.org/dkp/admin/additem.php?s=&i=2778) was given to Buford through the decission of the marshalls and other officers as you know Myanmar. A lot of work still needs to go into creating the item, i can only appologise that you didnt get what you want, but we must all make sacrifices we are all infact human.
Vis'kag the Bloodletter (http://dkp.silveroakguardians.org/dkp/admin/additem.php?s=&i=2779)
Being that this item has no current priority it therfore went to the person with the highest DKP who asked for it Bunfur.
Discussions
The marshalls are currently discussing about loot rules.
And as shadowscream says :
1)DKP? True
2)Class based items? True
3) Best friends and/or in RL friends gets first? False
No priority is working well in RG1, even though it requires members to be considerat of eachother. Though we do occationally have someone dissagreeing with items not being prioritizing, and even the occational childish threat. But as long as people just show eachother some respect we can enjoy the game, and put focus off the rewards of TEAMWORK.
Quote from: DarkAngel;146731Vis'kag the Bloodletter (http://dkp.silveroakguardians.org/dkp/admin/additem.php?s=&i=2779)
Being that this item has no current priority it therfore went to the person with the highest DKP
First of all, I do respect Marshals' decissions, that's why I brought the matter here and not at raid chat which I find it very childish and pointless when someone does, however I found it very disappointing to see such a good upgrade goes to waste while there clearly are other classes that can make great use of it. As I said before you guys are doing a great job organizing raids and hold all this together, and it is not your fault that such things happen, I blame the hunter for wanting such item, I like to see how he will react if a warrior/rogue whispered for a great bow or gun with -increased range attack power- and actually won it because what happened yesterday night was exactly the same.
I'd like to suggest, I repeat just a suggestion, to put "some" priority on certain items. It is waste of time and effort to see it waste in lack of rules. Just because I can equip it doesn't automatically going to benefit me.
In the end, I hope my word didn't hurt anyone, have a nice time, see ya all in WoW.
Well it should be up to the hunter to realize that that isn't a particularely good item for him. Same goes for other classes that want bows, they are important to hunters, though not the most important as other items have more important stats. It is up to the warrior or the rogue to pass it on to a hunter then. We shouldn't need to force everything by rules and priorities. In the end, you play a game with someone you hopefully consider friends or at the least allies. In the end it is the team that makes progress, not the induvidual. So what do you gain by preventing someone from makeing their comtribution bigger and better?
Rogues, hunters, warriors and maybe even rofldins will allways want the same items. But sometimes you just have to consider things a bit before taking whatever you want. Will someone else gain more the you, from that item?
If you want to make it hard we could just say; Daggers for rogues, swords for warriors and bows for hunters. DONE, FINAL.
Quote from: shadowscream;146740however I found it very disappointing to see such a good upgrade goes to waste while there clearly are other classes that can make great use of it.
Hmm - and we hunters do that everytime we see a good upgrade for hunters goes to a rogue/warrior!
Quote from: shadowscream;146740I blame the hunter for wanting such item.
Hmm - we did the same when a warrior got brutality blade as a backup weapon.
Quote from: shadowscream;146740IIt is waste of time and effort to see it waste in lack of rules.
Agree - that feeling we hunters have hat for a long time.
Whatever you say GD, hold the line for your fellow hunters, but I doubt you'd do that to anyone, you are too nice to do it, and I'm sure you won't roll for Vis'kag :narnar:
why is this not a hunter wepon????
if u are survival specced then its a verry nice weap
//claw
Quote from: shadowscream;146831and I'm sure you won't roll for Vis'kag :narnar:
Correct
This is really not a hunter weapon.
1. It has no agi, crit, sta or atp.
2. The proc rate is really low, and hunters arnt a melee class, not even in bg's.
3. waste of dkp if you ask me.
All things considered - it still is up to the individual to consider if he/she thinks that any given item is an upgrade...you might not agree, but it all comes down to playingstyle, if you ask me.
I wouldnt roll for it, since i suck at melee, but if someone thinks differently, then who are we to tell that person how to play their char?
If someone else had their hopes up for that item, it might be a dissapointment, just like we thought when the Brutality Blade went to a warrior, but thats just how the system is atm. No?
Just my 2 cents :)
Quote from: DarkAngel;146731First of all please try to respect the Marshalls decissions. When we give out loot we try to first of all balance the raid and its members.
The Eye of Sulfuras (http://dkp.silveroakguardians.org/dkp/admin/additem.php?s=&i=2778) was given to Buford through the decission of the marshalls and other officers as you know Myanmar.
That's what you said to me and I can live with that, but later another officer said that there was no vote and that it went to Buford due to Paladin prority, which is why I started this. If you feel Buford is more trustworthy or more deserving than I am, that is fine by me, but a Paladin priority on the best item for my build within my range... I would like to hear a good reason for that.
Quote from: Padding;146588We've seen way to many Legendary stuff go out of the guild to not treat them special. We need to consider carefully who gets legendary stuff, since mats for Sulforon f.ex. is around 6-7000g on the AH if you where to buy the mats the guild provide
So is a Paladin per se more trustworthy than a Warrior?
QuoteSo is a Paladin per se more trustworthy than a Warrior?
Well, if you want to misunderstand me, you surely do. Im not talking about Paladin or Warriors, im talking about giving legendarys to people that might leave the guild later on.
I would be ok with that, if people bought all the mats themselves, but fact is that SOG provide a lot of the mats needed, and therefore we feel we need to consider who gets these weapons to make sure the guild gets the most benefit of them
i gotto agree with shadowscream here. hes talking sense and wth is this about dkp, so if i had the most dkp and took a staff of shadowflame for no other purpose but to improve my arcane shots it would be ok and you would have to respect my "playstyle" becos it is my decision and i think it would be an uppgrade for me.? i am thinking officers are being very lazy on this subject. for rg1. and when did this change ? so your thinking a pally should get an ashcandy over a dps warrior just becos he can? and what if it would hit officers personally? atm officers rule the dkp on their category so a rogue should get huhurans stinger becos he gets 4 more agility on it while it is way better than hunter quest bow and hunters would go from kitty cat to big mother****ing lion! with it ... or maybe a priest should get that fish staff becos they can do nice melee atacks with it in pvp?? if we are really gonan go with this kinda shitty lootsystem on account of officers dont wanting to do their research and tell all whiners to shut the hell up then this is not the lootsystem i would like to play with. so you think ppl are going to respect each other and be considerate to one another? and so lets not even do ML and hope that every1 know what they should take. why do you think there is a word called priority ? why do you think most guilds use priority ? becos if we dont soon we wil have pallys dpsing with ashcandy rogues running with hunter bows while hunters got bows they been using a year ago. so they go melee on bosses with viskags... priests healing with druid items and druids going dps with warrior items .. and then we sit back and wonder why our dps is not enough for this and that ? i hope the officers start acting like one. that is why you are there to sort it all and see it all goes down fairly. sure there wil allways be ppl who wil whine or feel mistretead. but what i see atm would leave A lot more ppl whining and really feeling unappreciated. so plz officers start making this right we all invest a lot of time to this, you cant allways have the top dkp doesnt mean you need to suffer for it by seeing something clearly made for your class go to some1 who cant do **** with it just becos they dont got the brains to think outisde the box. thats my 2 cents if you disagree to bad i dont need 10 posts telling me how wrong i am kk? this is just my opinion as an rg1 member.
Quote from: Ashjen;147518I got to agree with Shadowscream here. He's talking sense and wth is this about dkp?
So if I had the most dkp and took a Staff of Shadowflame for no other purpose but to improve my arcane shots it would be ok and you would have to respect my "playstyle" becos it is my decision and I think it would be an upgrade for me?
I am thinking officers are being very lazy on this subject, for RG1 and when did this change? So you're thinking a pally should get an ashcandy over a dps warrior just becos he can? And what if it would hit officers personally?
Atm officers rule the dkp on their category, so a rogue should get Huhurans Stinger becos he gets 4 more agility on it while it is way better than hunter quest bow and hunters would go from kitty cat to big mother****ing lion! with it ... or maybe a priest should get that fish staff becos they can do nice melee atacks with it in pvp??
If we are really gonna go with this kinda shitty lootsystem on account of officers dont wanting to do their research and tell all whiners to shut the hell up then this is not the lootsystem I would like to play with.
So you think ppl are going to respect each other and be considerate to one another? And so lets not even do ML and hope that every1 know what they should take. Why do you think there is a word called priority ? Why do you think most guilds use priority ? Becos if we dont soon we wil have pallys dpsing with ashcandy, rogues running with hunter bows while hunters got bows they been using a year ago.
So they go melee on bosses with viskags... priests healing with druid items and druids going dps with warrior items .. and then we sit back and wonder why our dps is not enough for this and that?
I hope the officers start acting like one, that is why you are there to sort it all and see it all goes down fairly. sure there wil allways be ppl who wil whine or feel mistretead. but what I see atm would leave a lot more ppl whining and really feeling unappreciated, so plz officers start making this right we all invest a lot of time to this, you can't allways have the top dkp doesn't mean you need to suffer for it by seeing something clearly made for your class go to some1 who can't do **** with it just becos they dont got the brains to think outisde the box.
Thats my 2 cents if you disagree to bad I dont need 10 posts telling me how wrong i am kk? this is just my opinion as an RG1 member.
No offence Ashjen, but since I had some problems reading it, I thought, why not aswell make it more readable for others :P
/target Ashjen
/love
/hug
p.s. I agree with Ashjen on this, there should be atleast some sort of priority. :)
regarding ashjens post:
you dont really think that a lolladin will get asskandy before an arms warr do you?
cos if you do, then youre thinking wrong. afaik warrs never had any problems with loot sharing with pallys,
lets mention some items: onslaught girdle, drake talon shoulders, helm of endless rage, chromatic boots. if there was a warr IN the raid who wanted those items, he got them. the pallys got them after that (it only happened once with onslaught girlde and thats after 1yr of raiding)
heres what i think: lets say ashkandi for example. 1st priority on arms warrs (and afaik it is a priority and it exists), now lets say that 5 drops after a retri specced pally and a tank spec warr want it, like ive done before and will continue to do, ide pass (since he can do much better use with it than me)
tank vs healer pally could be a diff story but since were all friends here... why not pass? you can get it next time
now i know it sucks that in bwl some warr got a bow and a rogue got a gun, which imo ranged should be priority to hunters. you may ask why?
hunters will use ranged weapons 99% of their attacks in a raid-
rogues will use ranged weapons 5% of their attacks in a raid-?
warriors will use ranged weapons 5% of their attacks in a raid?
(regarding to tanks, tanks just pull with ranged.. so its out of the question(unless it has some bigass resistance, afaik there no +15 res ranged atm)
correct me if ime wrong here, but hunters want an item for increased dps and stats., while rogues/warrs and any other class wants it for just the stats. so.. a hunter would contribute much more than a rogue/warr with that ranged weapon.
the rest up to you to think :P
Quoteheres what i think: lets say ashkandi for example. 1st priority on arms warrs (and afaik it is a priority and it exists), now lets say that 5 drops after a retri specced pally and a tank spec warr want it, like ive done before and will continue to do, ide pass (since he can do much better use with it than me)
Lets remember that the loot rules in Dungeons are now DKP and nothing else. That said a Paladin can actually take Ashkandi before a warrior according to the rules, *however* (imo) it would be a serious lack of judgement and no game insight. Other weapons / armor can be discussed, but with the rules we are having, we require that people actually think a lot for themselves, and try to set themselves in the other persons shoes to see how they would react.
I urge people to make a list over items they want in the game, and make priorities for yourself, so when it actually drops, you know how/if/when you want it, and you know if other classes can benefit from it more than you and you therefor can let i pass until later
Afaik, the current system didnt give any problems so far ashjen. And even though there is a point somewhere in the post of yours, the way you bring it dont give me and incentive to act upon it. I think ill be "lazy" and wait for some1 else to make up a priority system for a couple 100 items for 9 classes.
QuoteI am thinking officers are being very lazy on this subject, for RG1 and when did this change? So you're thinking a pally should get an ashcandy over a dps warrior just becos he can? And what if it would hit officers personally?
Atm officers rule the dkp on their category, so a rogue should get Huhurans Stinger becos he gets 4 more agility on it while it is way better than hunter quest bow and hunters would go from kitty cat to big mother****ing lion! with it ... or maybe a priest should get that fish staff becos they can do nice melee atacks with it in pvp??
Well, the thing is in sog, or atleast the RG i was in, an pally wouldnt take *dajo's* Asscandy. Just an example.
Quote from: Bastet;147525Afaik, the current system didnt give any problems so far ashjen. And even though there is a point somewhere in the post of yours, the way you bring it dont give me and incentive to act upon it. I think ill be "lazy" and wait for some1 else to make up a priority system for a couple 100 items for 9 classes.
First of all, imho, I think everyone needs to chill a bit first. The loot system won't work to satisfy everyone, no one single system will. And trust me, I have been on the "wrong" side of the current system by missing out on 2 bows/guns that would have improved my stats/dps significantly and thus indirectly would have benefited the raid group as a whole.
I do however think that not only the raid members have to think carefully about a designated non-class specific item (aka no class being mentioned on the item), but also the officers (incl. ML) should think carefully about the item being rolled/dkp'ed for.
Surely there are a lot of items that CAN be used by multiple classes, but come on, think carefully about which class actually has the most (best) direct benefit out (from)of an item.
A rogue can surely use a +agi/dps dagger better than a hunter could, since the rogue not only uses the agi but also uses the dps ALL of the time during melee.. Same case for a bow/gun with +agi/+sta/dps, it would benefit a pure ranged class (hunter :) ) more than a rogue/warrior since a hunter will use all the stats AND also the dps EVERY single shot.
So does this mean a rogue/warrior should never get a (new) bow/gun or that a hunter should never get a new dagger/sword? No, but if some class would benefit more from a direct stat/dps immediately, then it should be " prioritized" for that class, no matter if some new item can drop from a new(er) instance that COULD be better.
Just my 2 cents...
Ok, i've just picked up everybody's 2 cents in this post, and theres a lot of people now owing me around 1g, so please them it to me in-game okthxbye!
Quote from: Neff;147538Well, the thing is in sog, or atleast the RG i was in, an pally wouldnt take *dajo's* Asscandy. Just an example.
:o It's not mine...I just like it...(alot :P) But I know the paly's wouldnt and im am very gratefull for that :)
Quote from: Padding;147569Ok, i've just picked up everybody's 2 cents in this post, and theres a lot of people now owing me around 1g, so please them it to me in-game okthxbye!
roflaloladin :roflmao:
Okay, so lets say it like this : Rogues get daggers, warriors get swords hunters get ranged.. KK?
After a while, Rogue x wants warriors Z sword, and Hunter Y wants Rogue x's dagger, and warrior wants Y's bow.
And then the newbie hunter called "Fred" wants the gun that warrior Z got, and we have the same discussion over again :P
Nebuo basicly said what i mean but much gentler. i just cant tolerate ppl who would take an item that is almost of no uppgrade for them. (and as to what neff said i dont mean dont ever take "y" bow or other way around just saying show the decency to wait for all those who benefit more directly and knowingly to get them first. were all guildies here we wil all get the items we want in time.) thus i made an angry post, but nonethless you did get the point. which has now come out very strongly. and that is DONT friggin take something you know some1 else benefits 99.999999% more than you pretty pretty plz. simple things like these are the stuff of war and illnes. a greed of one person can bring down a city! and thanks dajo for for making my post much more clearer :) never was any good at that.
also dont worry bastet you took my post the way you want to take it i didnt think you would have taken it any differently. and your reply dont suprise me.
So to sum up this post!
COMMON SENCE....
btw must say that it was a great run last night both in BWL and Naxx!:biggrin:
Best regards Rata
Right now let me try and explain this, from my own POV as some1 that done ML on a couple runs.
Class priority is a nice system, with loot tables for every item, and then some classes w/ priority on item over others. Ppl come complaining to ML/Officers, but i am a ranged warrior/melee hunter/dps paladin/shadow priest/etc and i cant get any gear thats good for my spec.
Officer discretion wont work due to the fact that between officers theres a lot of different POV's on how it should be, and might chance from ML to ML. Ppl come complaining to ML/Officers its not fixed.
Highest DKP wins, again nice system, but some ppl might take items over other ppl that might make more use of them. Ppl come complaining to ML/Officers that the melee hunter/ranged warrior/dps paladin/shadow priest/etc took thier item.
So, everything we tried we get a crap load of **** over from half or more of the raid :thumbsdown: tbh that made me consider quiting wow/guild a few times, afterall i am only human too, and repeated crap dont make me feel good. So next time you start bitching and moaning please keep this post in mind, and for all ppl like rata said, use common sence on items (which seams to be in short supply lately). and remember ITS JUST A FLIPPING GAME, AND THE ITEM WILL DROP AGAIN.
Bitch / Moan in presence of me @ risk of losing vital bits of the body, you have been warned.
Totaly Agree with bastet here,
a "secondairy class" took your loot? first think about how many items you "took" from his class that maybe he really wanted and would have had lots of fun with it
so stop the nagging about loot to officers and other players and remember its a game and that the item will probably drop again, Unless of course its one of those items blizzard forgot to put in sog loot system ....
Quote from: Bastet;147677Class priority is a nice system, with loot tables for every item, and then some classes w/ priority on item over others. Ppl come complaining to ML/Officers, but i am a ranged warrior/melee hunter/dps paladin/shadow priest/etc and i cant get any gear thats good for my spec.
Can we please implement this system again? It was working fine!
Solution to people complaining? Create a 'loot distribution complaints officer' :biggrin: . Happy to take up the job. Will brush 'em all off blizzard style :norty: .
Seriously, i think the current loot system will hold back raid progress as people clearly have no common sense when it comes to high level items.
Sure, items drop again in the future but does the whole raidgroup have to wait for that moment?
Quote from: Padding;147569Ok, i've just picked up everybody's 2 cents in this post, and theres a lot of people now owing me around 1g, so please them it to me in-game okthxbye!
ROTFL, :laugh:
My opinion on the issue? Use common sence. If you can see that someone else might want the item that would put it to more use in a PvE (not PvP) environment which would benefit the raid, dont fecking take it. It WILL drop again, so you take it that time, I mean... if you take an item that you will only use for PvPing, thats just preventing the raid group as a whole from progressing in end game. And I swear if any rofldin or huntard takes Ashkandi before Dajo im gonna fly to where ever the hell you live and do erm... something...so Dajo can shut the hell up every week in whispers just before a Nef kill :narnar:
Tbh, the officers have tried to put dkp systems in place in the with priorities, but people still bitched, so they gave up, fair play to 'em really, Its not the officers fault, they dont wanna **** people off, its just a general lack of common sense tbh.
Edit : Awesome, just realised i've posted near enough the exact same thing as Bastet and I skipped reading page 4 and 5 :D
There is one think you have to keep in mind when it comes to common sense. The way our 40 man raids do loot is that you whisper the ML if you want it. This way, you don't know if someone that have more use of it wants it. So, if you should use your common sense and think "someone might need this more than me", then you would never get it, cause you can't whisper for it. Here's where the ML comes in. A simple "a hunter also wants this bow, would you like to pass it to a hunter?" would solve this. Otherwise, you get an item, not knowing that you took the item before someone that could have more use of it. In 20 man raids this is no problem, as we roll for it, and everyone can use this common sense thing that ppl keep talking about.
Quote from: Zabard;147743There is one think you have to keep in mind when it comes to common sense. The way our 40 man raids do loot is that you whisper the ML if you want it. This way, you don't know if someone that have more use of it wants it. So, if you should use your common sense and think "someone might need this more than me", then you would never get it, cause you can't whisper for it. Here's where the ML comes in. A simple "a hunter also wants this bow, would you like to pass it to a hunter?" would solve this. Otherwise, you get an item, not knowing that you took the item before someone that could have more use of it. In 20 man raids this is no problem, as we roll for it, and everyone can use this common sense thing that ppl keep talking about.
That work does
not need, and should
not need to be on the ML. Yesterday for instance, the Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=49542) dropped from Chromaggus. They would have been a nice addition to my feral gear (actually my feral gear sucks atm, have lots of greens and blues, so it would have been a
big upgrade), but a rogue would do more use of 'em than me - at least in a raid.
The way I solved this, was that I whispered Vargen "[Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads] (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=49542), but I pass for rogues".
That way Vargen knows that I want it, but if some rogue whisper for it as well, he can pass it along to him/here. And that was actually what happened - Eva got herself a new pair of shoulderpads, and I'm happy with that - I can wait till next time :smile:
It don't has to be harder than that Zabard.
The type of work/whispering mentioned above by Bob and Zabard already goes on - and I would urge all members to do the same.
TL.
If everyone uses common sense (and isn't being greedy) the current system should work well. But appearantly that isn't the case.
Personally I would perfer the items to be (partially) distributed at the main looter's descretion. For most items it's obvious what classes benefit from it most. If the ML makes a wrong decision we can discuss it afterwards and they will only be ****ed at him. If we stick to the DKP is DKP system we have now a war might break out between certain classes :unsure: , since they are 'stealing' eachother's items. Out of those two senarios I prefer the former.
I wouldn't be too strict though, here are some examples:
If a hunter and a rouge both want brutality blade consider them both; yes it's better for the rouge, but it's also one of the best hunter weapons. If he wants it and he has more DKP he can have it. On the other hand if a hunter and a rouge both want a no stats high DPS weapon, the hunter can forget about it, they're a ranged class and won't really gain anything from it.
Another example is the heavy dark iron ring, which I want badly since I'm feral/bear specced. However I definately would want that to go to a prot warrior first and I will also mention that if I whisper for the item. I also did that when the amulet of steadfast might dropped last raid, appearantly none of the warriors wanted it :blink: , so I got it. I won't pass on the ring for an arms or fury warriors though, since there main role is not tanking and the item goes better with my spec. Feral druids get nearly 4 times as much armor from it and 20% more stamina. (And you will definately want me to be feral in the expansion if the leaked talent trees are correct :happy: , so I better get geared for it).
Or the end of dreams even. It's definately a druid weapon, but purely from a healer's point of view a pally or a priest could make great use of it as well, since it has a lot of +healing and mana/5 on it. Additionally druids are usually are 'not allowed to use there forms'. But if either of those two classes get it before a druid, that would seriously suck.
In other words please be considerate when you whisper for an item, if you want it as backup or 'fun' item, please mention it when you whisper for it. So the ML has some more info to base his decision on. Farming items is not the sole goal of raiding; yes it's nice to have them but they are just a means for progression, if people are being greedy they will indirectly hinder progression and thus crew over the entire raidgroup. I would definately want the ML's to saveguard this, so items aren't 'wasted' on the wrong people. Lets hope they don't have to intervene very often.
There you go Padding, 2 more cents :tongue: .
Edit: I just noticed that I partially repeated the above post. I should type a bit faster next time :P.
QuoteTbh, the officers have tried to put dkp systems in place in the with priorities, but people still bitched, so they gave up
We never gave up, we just decided that the most fair for all classes is purely DKP. We do rely on people to use the top-most head when considering items. We need those items to fulfill our missions and completing the hardest dungeons.
Again i urge all to write a list of the items they want, with priorities. Only by doing that, you'll actually consider if its a need or a nice for your class.
And as a note, I whisper the one winning the item telling him who is runner up usually if it is not a typical item for his class, giving ppl the chance to pass it on to a more typical class.
hi,
afta reading all this, i think some ppl might wanna re-think the reasons why dey want an item b4 /w for it like the vis'kag that dropped.
lets say if they:
1. think it was an upgrade when its clearly not
2. want epic in slot
3. want to annoy warriors/rogues for taking melee weap all the time,
those are examples of not thinking correctly cos if im not mistakened, the hunter dat got the sword replaced it less than 3 days later wen he completed his warblade set?
i kno things will drop again but it takes time and teamwork...and in this scenario, a 4% drop rate.
point: a lil more consideration is needed. that is all.
Why don't we have "bidding" on items instead? its a nice way to satisfy ppl who shud have priority over the item and usefull IN raids instead of given to another one who only uses it out of raids or less usefull to them ;
i lost the Cromatically Tempered Sword in the last raid, if the loot system didn't change it would of been mine because rogues would of priority over it, this nearly made me leave the guild because i saved most of my dkp just for this sword and of course it was given to a hunter.
i cannot say its useless for the hunter but it would of benefited me more then him. I agree on Threbeilith's idea of /w the ML on passing to cetain classes BUT ppl would still WANT the item and be greedy instead of looking at the whole raid, if they really want the item to become 100% complete epiced equiped for there spec they should agree on this bidding rule because they should know it would benefit other classes more.
At least then if i lost my CTS to a hunter they would be paying more then the adverage price and also more dkp then i have in total (900) which i cannot afford to lose because i also need other items so i would not really be "angered" resulting anything stupid.
This is similar to the loot system atm but at least the ppl in the guild with like 2k+ dkp wouldn't get ALL the items for themselves and not care about the rest of the new members and the whole raids progress (because its more usefull to other players)
P.S this would also be a nice way to get rid of ppl haveing LOADS of dkp overflowing
Well, for MC/BWL I wouldnt mind bidding, but for the other instances god no please, Ive seen the system at work, and I think its awfull, takes alot of time, and ppl get angry at each other for bidding up all the time so the other players looses alot dkp..brrrr I hate bidding
QuoteWell, for MC/BWL I wouldnt mind bidding, but for the other instances god no please, Ive seen the system at work, and I think its awfull, takes alot of time, and ppl get angry at each other for bidding up all the time so the other players looses alot dkp..brrrr I hate bidding
I gotta agree totally here
the current system is not perfect, since it relys on the ppl to know whats good for the raid, and thier class, but a bidding system is awefull, we want a quick raid w/ time to do naxx or other stuff after, not a slow moving auctionhouse.
Quotei cannot say its useless for the hunter but it would of benefited me more then him. I agree on Threbeilith's idea of /w the ML on passing to cetain classes BUT ppl would still WANT the item and be greedy instead of looking at the whole raid, if they really want the item to become 100% complete epiced equiped for there spec they should agree on this bidding rule because they should know it would benefit other classes more.
And in the Case on the CTS going To a hunter I must ask what weapons do u have? and what weapons do the hunter have? As far as i know the sword upgraded a LvL 52 Blue axe, and i think its highly unlikely that u have a sword/dagger that are lower!:whistle: Plz see the Benefits for the Raid here....
But thats not the real issue i can go on about How Guns/bows goes to Rogues for just a few more Agipoints but thats history now and no Hunter has left the guild for it!!!!
I agree on the Auction thingy but its hard to implement i think it will take loads of time to distribute loot! but its a good solution perhaps?!
I still think that COMMON SENCE combined with the BOBthingy tell ur story to the ML about Upgrades/Passing thats a good one:clap:
Best Regards Rata:flirty:
A bidding system is very :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
Some of the flaws have already been mentioned: takes time, and can lead to extreme high prices on items.
In addition you have the posibility for members co-operating on items, making very low bids on e.g. the class specific sets, to have more DKP to use on items obtainable by everybody.
Our current system is fast to use in raid, easy to manage, and as long as people use their head and common sence and think about the guild and not themselves, it would work out great.
:withstupid: :withstupid: :withstupid:
Ok.. I know that we are using the 'common sense' DKP system atm, and that we prolly won't be changing that, but I just wanted to hear want you guys would think of this:
Blackwing Lair.
--Razorgore the Untamed
Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal [1. Mage/Lock 2. Druid/Priest]
Gloves of Rapid Evolution [1. Priest 2. Druid]
Spineshatter [1. Warrior 2. Rogue 3. Paladin]
The Untamed Blade [1. Warrior 2. Paladin 3. Hunter]
--Vaelastrasz the Corrupt
Pendant of the Fallen Dragon [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Helm of Endless Rage [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Dragonfang Blade [1. Rogue 2. Hunter]
Red Dragonscale Protector [1. Paladin]
--Broodlord Lashlayer
Black Brood Pauldrons [1. Paladin]
Bracers of Arcane Accuracy [1. Mage/Lock 2. Druid/Priest]
Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight [1. Rogue 2. Warrior]
Heartstriker [1. Hunter 2. Rogue 3. Warrior]
--Firemaw
Legguards of the Fallen Crusader [1. Paladin 2. Warrior]
Black Ash Robe [1.Priest/Mage/Lock 2.Anyone]
Firemaw's Clutch [1. Mage/Lock 2. Priest/Druid]
Claw of the Black Drake [1. Rogue 2. Warrior]
Cloak of Firemaw [1. Rogue 2. Warrior]
Ring of Blackrock [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Taut Dragonhide Belt [1. Rogue/Druid]
Rejuvenating Gem [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Drake Talon Cleaver [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Shadow Wing Focus Staff [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid]
Primalist's Linked Legguards [1. Shaman]
Drake Talon Pauldrons [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
--Ebonroc
Drake Fang Talisman [1. Rogue/Hunter 2. Warrior]
Ebony Flame Gloves [1. Warlock 2. Priest]
Malfurions Blessed Bulwark [1. Druid 2. Warrior/Rogue]
Rejuvenating Gem [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Band of Forced Concentration [1. Mage/Lock 2. Priest/druid/paladin]
Dragonbreath Hand Cannon [1. Hunter 2. Rogue 3. Warrior]
Drake Talon Cleaver [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Taut Dragonhide Belt [1. Rogue/Druid]
Shadow Wing Focus Staff [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid]
Drake Talon Pauldrons [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Ring of Blackrock [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid/Paladin]
--Flamegor
Circle of Applied Force [1. Rogue/Hunter 2. Warrior/Paladin]
Emberweave Leggings [1. Hunter]
Shroud of Pure Thought [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Styleen's Impending Scarab [1. Warrior]
Rejuvenating Gem [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Herald of Woe [1. Paladin 2. Druid]
Dragon's Touch [1. Mage/lock 2. Priest]
Shadow Wing Focus Staff [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid]
Drake Talon Pauldrons [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Drake Talon Cleaver [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Taut Dragonhide Belt [1. Rogue/Druid]
Ring of Blackrock [1. Mage/Lock/Priest/Druid/Paladin]
--Chromaggus
Taut Dragonhide Gloves [1. Druid 2. Paladin]
Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads [1. Rogue/Druid]
Empowered Leggings [1. Priest 2. Druid/Paladin]
Elementium Threaded Cloak [1. Warrior 2. Druid]
Chromatic Boots [1. Warrior 2. Paladin]
Angelista's Grasp [1. Mage/Lock 2. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Shimmering Geta [1. Priest 2. Paladin/Druid]
Ashjre'tul, Crossbow of Smiting [1. Hunter]
Girdle of the Fallen Crusader [1. Paladin 2. Warrior]
Chromatically Tempered Sword [1. Rogue 2. Hunter/warrior]
Elementium Reinforced Bulwark [1. Warrior]
Claw of Chromaggus [1. Mage/Lock 2. Druid/Priest]
Primalist Linked Waistguard [1. Shaman 2. Paladin]
--Nefarian
Head of Nefarian [1. All]
Prestor's Talisman of Connivery [1. Rogue/Hunter 2. Warrior]
Therazanes Link [1. Hunter 2. Paladin]
Cloak of the Broodlord [1. Mage/Lock 2. Druid/Priest/Paladin]
Staff of the Shadow Flame [1. Mage/Lock 2.Priest/Druid]
Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood [1. Warrior 2. Paladin 3. Hunter]
Crul'shoruk, Egde of Chaos [1. Hunter 2. Warrior]
Archimtiros' Ring of Reckoning [1. Warrior/Rogue/Hunter]
Pure Elementium Band [1. Priest/Druid/Paladin]
Boots of the Shadow Flame [1. Rogue 2. Hunter]
Neltharion's Tear [1. Mage/Lock 2. Druid/Piest/Paladin]
Lok'amir il Romathis [1. Priest/Paladin/Druid]
Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer [1. Mage/Lock 2.Priest]
Now this is just an example and I think it looks rather neat, but thats just my 2 cents (and Im keeping these, Padding :tongue:)Id like to hear you guys oppinions.. I can do without flaming thanks, and I certain most of you are able to tell your oppinions without such. :blush: (I've just become a bit scared of letting my oppinions in the open lately, because some discussions have been quite, ehm, impetuous and intense, but decided to give this one a try.) :smile:
Looks fine to me, however, shouldnt need to do this if people used common sense :P
I say that ppl should get what they want. If not class specific, or what obviously will benefit the spesific class thus the raid, then give it to the person with the most DKP! Those are credits you earned, and you should get anything you want...eventually.
Dont be a dumbass, be a smartass! (in general, not to topic starter)
Quote from: ratatosk;148041And in the Case on the CTS going To a hunter I must ask what weapons do u have? and what weapons do the hunter have? As far as i know the sword upgraded a LvL 52 Blue axe, and i think its highly unlikely that u have a sword/dagger that are lower!:whistle: Plz see the Benefits for the Raid here....
But thats not the real issue i can go on about How Guns/bows goes to Rogues for just a few more Agipoints but thats history now and no Hunter has left the guild for it!!!!
I agree on the Auction thingy but its hard to implement i think it will take loads of time to distribute loot! but its a good solution perhaps?!
I still think that COMMON SENCE combined with the BOBthingy tell ur story to the ML about Upgrades/Passing thats a good one:clap:
Best Regards Rata:flirty:
I believe that hunter was me and i don't think you had been looking at my weapons before you where thinking of leaving guild with a mad face. And about the dkp earned the guy's that have such high amounts of dkp did actualy work for it and thus waited too all this time to get these items.
Now the following aint an attack on any1, but rather why i think a hunter shouldnt go for CTS.
CTS vs Boneslicing hatchet
14 str, 14 agi, 7 stam vs 13 agi, 5 stam
This improvement will yield the hunter 20 hp, 2 RAP and 14 MAP, now since hunters always say they mostly range i wonder if the 2 ranged attack power is worth keeping this from a melee class.
I'd take the KISS route. If someone else has done the work already then use it. Read it here (http://www.wow-loot.com/raid_bwl.htm).
The *very* important thing to note here is that it does not take a simplistic "you're a tank" or "you're a pallie" route, it sets out different categories so that you can allocate priority accordingly.
You're a warrior? What type of warrior?
You're a druid? What type of druid?
You're a pallie? What type of pallie?
That determines your loot priority. The only thing not covered is shadow priest which is not a problem in our raids as we do not carry shadow priests in RG1 - we have enough DPS classes!
I won't take credit for the link, thank Tanales who post it to us Officers a while back. It's a nice informative link though.
TL.
QuoteThat determines your loot priority. The only thing not covered is shadow priest which is not a problem in our raids as we do not carry shadow priests in RG1 - we have enough DPS classes!
I actually think this is worth a discussion since most other classes are allowed to play whatever they feel like.
Paladins - Holy / Retribution
Druids - Resto / Feral
Warriors - Prot / Fury
Its not that i dont like priests to heal to their max abilites, im a healadin myself, but it raises the qeustion if others are allowed to choose talents for themselves... why arent priests?
Should you choose to contribute to this discussion, please keep it at a serious level 8)
Priests are free to choose - the question I would ask is which class is to replace that healer? The answer to that lies with the Field Marshalls as they make the decisions. A priest can choose shadow though but then then they are ocmpared to other DPS classes and have to fight for a place in the raid alongside those DPS classes. But the competition for places amongst DPS classes is *far* greater than for healing places if you are a priest.
SoG is also a little unusual in that we do not generally mandate how you play - but we (the Field Marshalls) reserve the right to and have from time to time used that power. Common sense needs to prevail - what will work for the raid. And that is where it all comes tumbling down alongside the common sense supposedly employed by people in this loot rules thread :sad: Some people want to be uber PVP or solo *and* hold down a spot in a highest level PVE raid group. The two different aims are not always completely compatible and that's where the problems come.
TL.
That list looks good to me Nefertem.
I do have on comment on it though. What kind of spec you have is also of influence. Although I doubt the main looter can keep track of who got which spec.
This has an effect on the taut dragonhide pieces for example. Since their stats (high armor + stamina + AP (or strength)) make it best suited for feral druids, just like malfurion's blessed bulwark. It should go to feral druids first imo, if they want it. Also because bloodfang is within easy reach for the rouges. Restro and balance druids on the other hand should pass on it for rouges. Although I'm not sure why a rouge would prefer this over Bloodfang.
I would also change the Drake Fang Talisman's priority: [1. Fury Warrior/Rogue 2. Hunter 3. Tanks (Warrior/Feral Druid)]. +hit% is most important for dual wielding classes, because of the large miss chance of their off-hand weapon. But it is also one of the best tanking trinkets in the game. There isn't much +hit% on tanking gear and if you miss you won't cause any threat. (This is even more noticable for druid tanks, because they don't have instant threat abilities). Naturally the 1% dodge is also very nice for tanks.
And regarding being free to spec the way you like:
You can, as long as you keep the raid group's best interest in mind. If everyone gets a PvP spec it would be a bit harder to raid effectively :tongue: . I, for example, wanted to be feral, 11/35/5 is best for that; but I choice to go 30/21 instead, because people still expect me to heal during raids. But then again, skill > gear > spec.
As I am about to goto work I havn't had time to read the whole thread, so accept my apologies if this has been covered already...
Now I know people want grear of all sorts and sizes, however have we considered looking at what people need to help the raid rather than just getting loot for the sake of it.
For example... Player A gets an item that is only slightly better than what he is replacing it with. (lets say the item had +60 healing/damage and the new one has +70) Where as If Player B had been given first refusal because his similar item was only +20 then the raid would be gaining +50 dps rather than +10.
Now I know people would not be happy with that as everyone wants phat lewt, however I for one would be more than happy to pass on an item if it would be beneficial to the raid group itself.
Just wondering what you guys think?
Sandrion, the link I posted agrees with most of what you summarised. I'm not sure if you saw it.
TL.
QuoteNow the following aint an attack on any1, but rather why i think a hunter shouldnt go for CTS.
CTS vs Boneslicing hatchet
14 str, 14 agi, 7 stam vs 13 agi, 5 stam
This improvement will yield the hunter 20 hp, 2 RAP and 14 MAP, now since hunters always say they mostly range i wonder if the 2 ranged attack power is worth keeping this from a melee class.
I wont Attack anyone either:whistle:
But Just reminding that Dragonbreath HC/Heartstriker went to a Rogue/War on equal terms! ppl wanted to upgrade a few Agi points etc!
So plz ppl Use common Sence otherwise it will soon be a DKP loot revenge war outthere!
So there have been similar probs before.....and it SUX:thumbsdown:
just to decide when what class becomes dps or so then. Cause ppl like marduk arent full holy, but still are some of our main healers.
Nice link TL. Saw it earlier when I was farming NR-gear, but forgot about it :happy:
Now.. I know that there are flaws with the class-priority, aswell as there are flaws with the current system we have and all other loot-systems..
To use common sense sounds like a great system, but what we have to come to terms with is, that we are 40 different people in the raid, and that many of us have a different way of looking at things. Common sense can varie a lot from person to person imo, and as Ratatosk said, if we don't watch out it might turn into some kind of 'loot-war' between ppl.
Im not saying that Im any better, or that the class-priority system which I think I prefer, is the best. No matter what DKP-system we use, there will always be someone who isn't satisfied, and this thread alongside with some of the other loot-discussions there have been are fine examples for that.
It is like creating an Utopia. It is rather impossible as we are all different.
To get this system or another system to work, we just have to realise that we can't always get it our way, and if we just cooperate and stop discussing and flaming each other for what we think is flaws, we will eventually get the stuff we want. I know that I got a lot of stuff from BWL that I want and that I can be a pain in the arse just before a boss, but I've realised myself, that.. it doesn't really matter.. I was so eager to get something from BWL in the beginning that I think I was close to **** someone of.
So even though I am a bigger fan of the class-priority I have accepted the system we use now, and Im hoping that the ones who haven't done so yet, will soon do so. Because then we will be closer to having a good system..
Lets all join together in a big circle around a fire or somit, hold hands and sing something hippi-ish and all be friends and agree to disagree and just do BWL for the original reasons.. Have fun :flirty:
EDIT: geez.. that was a lot of stuff that Im not sure gives any sense.. but.. you know what I mean.. hopefully.. :unsure:
Quote from: TeaLeaf;148309Sandrion, the link I posted agrees with most of what you summarised. I'm not sure if you saw it.
TL.
Yes, you're right TL; I didn't see the link. That site looks great btw :thumb: .
i think every1 has common sense but if ppl just want bad-ass items that sound cool/look cool den its up to them i guess..
the world is not nice
Quote from: Bastet;148241Now the following aint an attack on any1, but rather why i think a hunter shouldnt go for CTS.
CTS vs Boneslicing hatchet
14 str, 14 agi, 7 stam vs 13 agi, 5 stam
This improvement will yield the hunter 20 hp, 2 RAP and 14 MAP, now since hunters always say they mostly range i wonder if the 2 ranged attack power is worth keeping this from a melee class.
I worked that out too yesterday, however didnt post incase I got something wrong and made myself look a tool. But yeah... doesnt really seem like a great upgrade for a hunter imo.
lol sinap dont go there. we have a hunter running around with a 37 dps bow and getting raped badly seeing a prot tank ninjaing 44 DPS! bow. uppgrade ? hello .. and raped badly again with 43.5 dps bow 14 agi. forget about the uppgrade .. think about how it feels to lose something that is your main source of dps to ppl who benefit either 0 or 2 agi .. id say OUCH to compare this feeling imagine dajo losing asscandy 2 TIMES to a paladin and a hunter .. so as i said dont go there :)
and i doubt il get used to seeing more prot specced warriors taking high dps bow from under hunters faces with this system, no matter how hard i try nefertem. YES I GOT MOST DKP THUS I EARNED EVERYTHING MUAHAHHA... lorntoplay your class plz and save some headache. this /w to ML about passing for priority works tho. should be mandatory i say. kk padding i owe you 4 cents allready <_<
(http://wow.allakhazam.com/images/fashion/heartstrikerbow.jpg)
Hunter
(http://www.transdiffusion.org/tmc/thames/images/1985ibag-bennyhill.jpg)
Warrior
Rofl :)
nice to finaly see a picture of opti.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Quote from: opticalrush;148435(http://www.transdiffusion.org/tmc/thames/images/1985ibag-bennyhill.jpg)
Warrior
Frenk?!?!