I thought I would split this out from a comment made in an application thread and make my own comments on it here. It was a comment about moving someone from RG2 to RG1 and it being seen as a 'promotion'.
Quotepromote from within...
A move from RG2 to RG1 is not a promotion, it's just a bigger repair bill and the mandatory right to spend more time wiping. Try the 2.5 hours we spent wiping on Huhuran last night and Optical's 32G repair bill.
But seriously folks, everyone should stop looking at RG2 & RG1 as the 'good' and 'better' raid groups:
SoG run TWO raid groups and they are BOTH damn fine raiding teams - both are Premiere League.And remember this - a move to RG1 will demote you in the DKP list by about 3,000 DKP points. So if you want to ever get your hands on that special item it will have to drop to everyone else first, so you'll be seeing it in about Autumn 2009. :norty: OTOH DKP will accrue more quickly in RG2 and loot drops will be accelerated in RG2 as more bosses are killed faster.
Work for *your* raid group and towards its progression in whichever instance you are raiding. RG1 will for the time being spend much more time wiping than RG2 whilst RG1 is ahead in the instance boss list and learning new tactics and fights, but RG2 will continue to make far more rapid progress than RG1 (due to the tactics being already honed) and will eventually catch RG1 and work together with RG1 on the same new boss.
RG1 & RG2 will then be raiding the same thing to the same standard, so don't think of one as better than the other. Yes RG1 is doing more difficult instances, but to reach the Bosses that RG2 has already done in so very little time proves that RG2 is a force to be reckoned with, not 'also rans'.
TL.
:worshippy: AMEN m8. amen!
Well said!! I second that :smile:
Very nice post - that should set things straight :clap:
Amen :clap::clap::clap::clap:
//claw
I agree that RG2 is definately not a 'fishing pond' for RG1 to get new members from. If RG1 would be constantly 'stealing' RG2's best members it would hurt their progression considerably. I also understand the wish to have two equal raid groups. However I strongly oppose the fact that you are 'restricting' people from being transferred between the two raid groups.
As I have already stated in the past, being transferred to RG1 is an upgrade in the sense that RG1 has more raid days. Yes the extension of the amount of raid days of RG2 is currently under discussion; but in all honesty, I highly doubt that's it's going to happen.
I also do not understand what you intent with the DKP penalty you are imposing on future transferees. You make it sound like every person that wants to be transferred from RG2 to RG1 is only doing it for the loot?! They're most probably at the back of the line anyway. Additionally, pushing people back even further in line will indirecty harm the raid group's progression as well. DKP is there to distribute loot, it is not an officiers playtool to punish people.
If people either want to be more dedicated raiders or will be unable to attend on certain RG2 raiding days in the future; what reason do they have left to talk to an officier about it after reading this comment? You risk losing the more aspiring people from RG2, since they might as well look for another guild if a transfer to RG1 is not a valid option. If memory serves me right you already have lost members because of this; more will follow.
I for one have no aspirations to join RG1, so this does not effect me personally. I just wanted to share my thoughts with the officiers, because I'm convinced that this 'rule' will do more damage then good.
Sandrion, you won't get a 3000 dkp penalty litterally, you keep the same DKP, but we in RG1 have about 3k more so it's the same ;)
good thing TL :biggrin:
It's not so much that RG2 is a fishing pond for RG1 to steal members, its that many RG2 think they are in an inferior raid group, which it is not.
And Dajo is correct, there was no rule change announcement about DKP in what I wrote.
TL.
Just my thougt on it..
Like I see it, we may loose peeps anyway.
1. Those who wanna raid more but cause of the rules cannot be "uppgraded" to rg1. There may be some who will leave to raid more. As said above, some already have.
2. If the guild start recruiting from within, then you may see peeps leave cause of the lack of progress in rg2. There will be slower progress in rg2 if rg1 starts gettin the best equipped players there.
Im glad Im not the one taking the final decision here :-)
To point one thing at the end, the grass isnt always better at the other side of tha fence. That are shown again and again when peeps apply here shortly after leaving the guild. Wonder why:narnar:
btw who said it wasnt fun wiping...:-)
Quote from: Dajo;149392Sandrion, you won't get a 3000 dkp penalty litterally, you keep the same DKP, but we in RG1 have about 3k more so it's the same ;)
Hmm, thanks for pointing that out. I misinterpreted that :tongue: .
So you can scratch the DKP comment I made. It also makes my initial post sound a bit too harsh when I look back at it now.
Quote from: Sandrion;149388However I strongly oppose the fact that you are 'restricting' people from being transferred between the two raid groups.
As I have already stated in the past, being transferred to RG1 is an upgrade in the sense that RG1 has more raid days. Yes the extension of the amount of raid days of RG2 is currently under discussion; but in all honesty, I highly doubt that's it's going to happen.
If people either want to be more dedicated raiders or will be unable to attend on certain RG2 raiding days in the future; what reason do they have left to talk to an officier about it after reading this comment? You risk losing the more aspiring people from RG2, since they might as well look for another guild if a transfer to RG1 is not a valid option. If memory serves me right you already have lost members because of this; more will follow.
I've stated before my interest to moving to RG1 due to the fact that I would like to raid more often. I read the message with a heavy heart that moving to RG1 was no longer possible for RG2 members. Like probably some others, I considered looking for another guild because of this statement, but found that I enjoy SoG too much for such a simple solution. Instead, I've dedicated more time to my alts and have been raiding in ZG and AQ both with Jemeny, Minetha and Zabard. I've been looking forward to the day when we maybe can add an extra day with RG2, and this issue is now up for discussion. If it will come to pass is another matter tho.
And with the added possibility to sometimes raid with alts in MC, my mage is cheering with joy, and my rogue is crying (cause she'll be paying the DKP for it). This will, imo., add a variation that will keep the game fun a lot longer. :biggrin:
1) If Rg1 and RG2 are to be equal, make a poll amongst RG2 as to implement another raid day for them?
I think the difference in amount of raiding makes the raid groups very different.
2) If a RG2 player moves to RG1, he might have less DKP, but he would probably get items that are very good according his standard, since most RG1 ppl now start aiming for gear higher than BWL thus passing on tier 2 and def. tier 1?
Quote from: Adularena;1494211) If Rg1 and RG2 are to be equal, make a poll amongst RG2 as to implement another raid day for them?
Welcome to the forums Adu. You'll find the Poll was posted some time ago in the raiding section.
TL.
We can "promote from within" really, take soldiers, im sure, no wait... I KNOW there are soldiers who would love to raid, I was one of them a couple of days ago but was very luckily given that chance and will keep that spot until the day I die, or quit wow :P So yeah, there will probably be some people leave because they want more raids, I did the same a few weeks ago, but regretted it, but they can be replaced by soldiers or something. IMO, taking people from RG2 and moving them to RG1 is not the way to go, at all. Its basically like saying... hmm... we'll take the MT of RG2 who knows what he's doing on every fight, keeps the fight together etc, out of RG2 and putting them into RG1. Totally destroys there progress. People in RG2 have raided with RG2 members for a while now and they know each other well and how each other works, it should stay like that.
I think u're kind of missing the point, Sinap. What Sandrion means is that it's better to move a player from RG2 to RG1 if that is what the player want (and there is a need for the class), than to say that this is not gonna ever happen. The reason for this is that the player might leave SoG instead, which wouldn't help RG2 any more than the player being moved to RG1.
Quote2) If a RG2 player moves to RG1, he might have less DKP, but he would probably get items that are very good according his standard, since most RG1 ppl now start aiming for gear higher than BWL thus passing on tier 2 and def. tier 1?
Well look at me, i had almost most dkp of the rg2 rogues (so no ex rg1 members) i would be able to even choose the BF pieces when they drop. Now i'm the lowest dkp rogue, I only get the leftovers if they drop, at the moment i can only get braicers and gloves. If i would have stayed in rg2, i'm
sure i would have gotten the bloodfang
faster since i had most dkp. But i couldn't stay due to work, so i'm glad i could go and still have a shot at bloodfang :).
And for the better gear, at Naxx or AQ i'm lowest too, ok its only 100-400 dkp diffirence with aq and maybe 5-20 with naxx, but it still means i only get the 6th rogue piece that drops.
Quote from: Zabard;149495What Sandrion means is that it's better to move a player from RG2 to RG1 if that is what the player want (and there is a need for the class), than to say that this is not gonna ever happen.
We haven't said that it will never happen, but we have said we will avoid it where possible and only work in conjunction with RG2 Marshals to ensure best outcome from both raid groups. Whether or not someone leaves the Guild is one thing, but having a steady flow from RG2 to RG1 would decimate RG2 and then you'd see bugger all progress.
TL.
This clarification in the role of Raid Group 2 is exactly what it requires for it's long term success. So my congratulations to TL and the Marshal crowd for making it known!
In the longer term having two highly succesful raid groups will create more fun for more and more loot for everyone! (it's simple arithmetic at the end of the day)
And also it's the perfect option for those who want to experience the learning curve and push their way to every first boss kill for the raid group!
I'm sure that many of us want to raid extra days and a poll is ready in place for choosing the day!
Yes, there might be some short-term disadvantages for individuals but really we should all be looking at the long term picture, especially now that the expansion is within several months of release.
3 cheers for SOG!
Shep
Yes the release of the expansion and the reduction in the ammount of raid seats will be a big change, and with the current ammount of raiding members there will probably be several more groups in various levels of hardcoreishness :unsure:
But that all will have to be talked about by (Field) Marshals when the time gets closer :smile:
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149514We haven't said that it will never happen, but we have said we will avoid it where possible and only work in conjunction with RG2 Marshals to ensure best outcome from both raid groups. Whether or not someone leaves the Guild is one thing, but having a steady flow from RG2 to RG1 would decimate RG2 and then you'd see bugger all progress.
TL.
Ok, thank you for clarifying that.
I understand the reluctance to transfer people between raid groups. Although I assume that the people that have the wish to be transferred
and are experienced enough to join RG1, are also most likely the ones that are going to be 'missed' the most by RG2. So it kind of sound like a complicated way of saying: no, it's not gonna happen :tongue: .
Like I stated before I do not expect that RG2 gets another raid day. Which will cause our progression to stagnate, simple because of time contraints.
So I still see the risk of losing good people :unsure: .
But I agree with Bastet. In two to three months time the expansion will arrive, which will have inevitable consequences for the raid groups. They will, most likely, cease to exist. But even then, this 'issue' may still arrise in the future. I hope you will take that into consideration while thinking of a new 'raid system' for the expansion. You have a though job ahead of you :flirty: .
my 2C worth:
as most peolpe have said, freely allowing people to move from '2 to '1 when there are spaces is counterproductive, since usually it is because player A wants more progress/more loot/more raiding, they want to go to RG1, this sets back the progress et. al. of '2, meaning the players who are sitll in '2 want more loot, more progress, so then THEY want to move etc. it is far wiser to put the effort and investment into '2 to advance it than take what some people see as a shortcut (it's not really) and join '1.
Unless there are really good reasons, like you can't raid mondays ever again, even the need for more raid days isn't really an issue, if you really feel strongly about something tell a guild leading dude and see where it goes. Don't just leave. Remeber, they may put time/blood/sweat/tears into running the guild, but it's still our guild :).
Quote from: Bastet;149540But that all will have to be talked about by (Field) Marshals when the time gets closer :smile:
Just on a small side note: I think that's something that should be discussed among
all the members, not only in the closed forums of the Officers. This will be such a big change afflicting all the members of the guild, so this is something I think we all should have a say in.
And also, I think it's smart if we start to discuss it, throw out suggestions and such in an early phase, since that will make us better prepared for when the expantion comes :smile:
The problem with RG2 is quite obvious as it is right now. We spend one day clearing MC, and one day taking down Razorgore. This means that we have to get down Razorgore on the first or second go to even get to try more than a couple of times on boss 2 before the raid is called. The lack of the third day to try to get further in to BWL and thus improving the general equipment level of RG2 wont happen.
There is a poll now about another raid day for RG2, but judging from the poll, we'll get the same result as RG1. Too many either can't/wont raid anohter day, or the day people can raid are spread too thinly. No dedication, skill or time can ever counter this for those who wish to raid a third day. I hope this can explain the frustration of some of RG2's members.
Well i know the marshals are working on something in case there wont be a 3th raid day, give them some time :smile:
Quote from: Threbrilith;149601Just on a small side note: I think that's something that should be discussed among all the members, not only in the closed forums of the Officers. This will be such a big change afflicting all the members of the guild, so this is something I think we all should have a say in.
And also, I think it's smart if we start to discuss it, throw out suggestions and such in an early phase, since that will make us better prepared for when the expantion comes :smile:
I agree, maybe we could open a seperate thread to discuss this. The expansion will be here before you know it :happy: .
Quote from: Zabard;149604The problem with RG2 is quite obvious as it is right now. We spend one day clearing MC, and one day taking down Razorgore.
Patience young padawn. You assume MC is raided every week. If this does not hold true then your assertion fails too. However, ignoring whether or not MC is raided every week, take a look at this bit:
Quote from: Zabard;149604This means that we have to get down Razorgore on the first or second go to even get to try more than a couple of times on boss 2 before the raid is called.
I know you probably didn't mean exactly that but:
Do you only think your raid lasts for 90 minutes? Are you serious in saying that 4 pulls is a night's raiding? Jayzus, I've done nights with RG1 where we had to do Razegore twice and then Vael FOUR times and *then* we went on and cleared the the rest of BWL including Nefarian! Four times is *nothing*!
To a certain extent, I really believe that RG2 are still learning the principles needed to succeed in BWL and later instances. You have the raw talent (and DPS), but have not yet learned to focus and control it as required by each instance and boss. In a very rough approximation the instances go something like this:
- MC = just hit things, hard - someone will heal you more than you get hit, most of the time. High fault tolerance - ie you can cock it up badly and still kill the boss.
- BWL = hit things in the right order, with moderate threat control and semi-accurate timing, with some specific class roles, modest resistance and work mainly in large groups. Moderate fault tolerance - you can cock one or two things up and get away with it, just. Basic ability to adjust on the fly needed.
- AQ40 = hit things in the right order, with highly controlled threat, specific timing, working in up to 2 units with a good degree of specific class roles and interraction, with degrees of resistance and focused DPS. Low fault tolerance: get a couple of things wrong and you wipe - everyone needs to know what they're doing 99% of the time. Moderate to high adjustment on the fly needed. Some autonamous group work needed later in instance.
- Naxx = hit things in the right order, by the right class, at the right time, with highly controlled and swappable threat, with high level focused DPS, working in 4-6 units with a high degree of specific class roles and interraction all working to a single plan on a single time line. Minimal Fault Tolerance - get someone in your raid who does not know what they're doing or is unable to focus on their specific role throughout the fight and you'll wipe. Fluid and precise adjustments needed independent of Raid Leader - high degree of autonamous and accurate group work required.
RG2 need to come to understand that wiping that is a necessity when learning new instances.
You suffer together, that builds the bonds needed to overcome the challenge.
You learnt to work better as a team, not as a group of DPS hungry individuals.
You need to learn to pay attention, to your Marshalls and their instructions.
You need to learn to focus on your specific role, period.
You need to learn execution of a strategy as a team.
Now don't get me wrong here, I think RG2 are doing great, but what I am trying to point out is that whether you do this over 1,2, 3 or 4 raiding days each week you still need to overcome these basic problems. Work as a team and you will indeed progress. That's what it's about. You won't stagnate, you'll learn the skills necessary to help you survive and defeat the bosses further into BWL and beyond.
TL.
Its just sad to see people leave because you could not get from RG2 to RG1... even there was an open seat and then leave the guild because they wanted to raid more... *cough* Pilgaard *cough*
In addition to TL's story,
I followed the progression of RG1 through Soulbringerx and what I remember is that RG1 did a lot of wiping on Razorgore, Vael and Broodlord. Those we the hard bosses. After that they killed them I heard they downed Firemaw, Ebonroc, Flamgore and Chrommy all within 16 days.
Broodlord 1ste kill 12-03-06
Firemaw 1ste kill 04-04-06
Ebonroc 1ste kill 11-04-06
Flamgore 1ste kill 11-04-06
Chromaguss 1ste kill 18-04-06
I realy expected them to take at least 1.5 months on chrommy, but they downed him very fast.
As you can see the progression went on much faster. ofc it took a while downing Nefarian but that was due to attendance problems.
Lesson for RG2, stick together and help eachother out as a team, we will be put to the test even further more.
Okay a side note is that they have 3 raiding days but then it still went fast, something we can achief to!
D.
Luthor, you may have perceived a slot in RG1 or even just assumed it, but you were and are not in possession of the full facts, so stating it as gospel isn't particularly helpful.
T*coughs*L.
dont get me rong. but i have real live friends in rg1 (dajo and opticalrush) so i will always be applying for rg1 if a spots is open, not because i dont have a good time in rg2 (good raiding foks and fun whenn its allowed) but a game is to play with friend and if they are real live friends you will always want to play with them. If dajo and opticalrush would be in rg2 i probely wanted to be in rg2 if i were in rg1.
nothing to do with rg2. and if rg1 ever makes a rule that gr2 members arn't allawed to go to rg1 i can live with that. but probely still be trying to get in rg1.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149624Patience young padawn. You assume MC is raided every week. If this does not hold true then your assertion fails too. However, ignoring whether or not MC is raided every week, take a look at this bit:
Originally Posted by Zabard (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=149604#post149604)
This means that we have to get down Razorgore on the first or second go to even get to try more than a couple of times on boss 2 before the raid is called.
I know you probably didn't mean exactly that but:
Yes, that's more or less exactly what I mean. :happy: I know we have only recently started in BWL, but unfortunately, RG2 has the habit of taking a looong time getting ready after a wipe. I think someone else wrote a note about this somewhere. We basicly spent 2 hours just sitting around. We killed Razor on 5th go, and then had 2 goes at Vael. I think we only got three tries on Vael in one night, and that night I couldn't attend. I know we'll get better at downing Razorgore in time, but after raiding with RG2 for some months now, I'm not so sure that the long downtimes between fights will improve. All statistics have so far proven that it wont. I know I'm not the only one annoyed by this. I know you (TL) are annoyed by it too (ref.: the AQ run the other day when people just went afk before boss fights).
Perhaps the RL should start doing the same as TL, and kick people that just up and leave the keyboard before boss fights or go AFK without giving notice.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149624Do you only think your raid lasts for 90 minutes? Are you serious in saying that 4 pulls is a night's raiding?
No that's not what I call a raid, so I guess you would be a bit frustrated when that is an evening of raiding.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149624Jayzus, I've done nights with RG1 where we had to do Razegore twice and then Vael FOUR times and *then* we went on and cleared the the rest of BWL including Nefarian! Four times is *nothing*!
It seems either I didn't write what I meant well enough, or you didn't quite understand me. I have nothing against wiping a whole night if that's what it takes, but when it takes 20 minutes just standing around waiting for people that are basicly being slow, anyone can get annoyed. This also holds us back from progressing further.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149624To a certain extent, I really believe that RG2 are still learning the principles needed to succeed in BWL and later instances.
That's why we are there. :smile:
Ah ok, glad we cleared that up!
TL.
The problem last BWL run was that we tried a couple of tries on Razorgore, and we got to the decision that we needed more protect spec tanks to do the job - Therefore we sent off 2xwarriors to respec and after that we got our kill... These ppl will now stick to thier spec, and we should have to wipe so much on Razorgore anymore = more time on Vael. It took some time to go back to IF and respec since i had to help both of them to set up spec, so thats why you sat around waiting so long, cause usually if you see it we get ALOT of tries on them fast, because we dont like waiting more than you do Jemeny...
Hopes this clarify why we had some waiting time last time :D
Yes, I know, but that was only one of the times we had to wait. Oh well, water under the bridge.
Just an idea, in future raids it can be wise to focus on Information.
Last raid I was in group 5, we where standing inside, good and buffed up talking about weather and stuff like that :biggrin: and after a looong period (when the warr did the prot respeck) we asked eachother why we where waiting so long. None had any idea.
next time just print that "due to the last attempts we wanne respeck our warr for the benefit of todays raid. It may take 5-10 min". as simple as that.
Btw: rg2 raid leaders are doing a greast job, dont misunderstand that :-)
Well people AFK during raids is a big problem in BWL, and even more so in later instances. You should really not allow people to go afk unless it is absolutly nessesary, and rather set up bio breaks with regular intervalls.
In RG1 if someone goes afk between Razor and Vael, they are replaced. We really just keep up the pace and keep on clearing trash even while loot is being done. Our first break is just before the big clear up to Broodlord and then a second one just before Chromaggus.
Sure, if you wipe that ammount of breaks isn't good enough, but then let the RL allow for a 2 min bio then. If you wipe 5 times and different people go afk between each one, you will take twice as long between tries and probably have half the raid with no focus.
As for RG1 and RG2, I really would call them Guardians and Defenders, because they are equal and we share the same recources. Many think we demad too little from the Guardians, but we are still progressing as fast as the guilds with 1 and 2 more raid days. Defenders and their 2 raid days have done an awesome effort and progress. I think the Defender raid group will make even more progress once they get Razor on farm, and might even be able to take him down straght after Ragnaros. That should clear up some time on your next raid. Both raidgroups have and have had problems with low focus and ppl afk, but the Guardians have less problems with it because of the announced breaks.
Go easy on your Marshals guys, the first few bosses in BWL are the most frustrating to lead.
Sounds like a good idea - at the beginng of the raid it could be announced when the breaks would be - and upon wipe - it could be said that next attempt would be in, for instance, 5 minutes. If you are not there - you are replaced. That might motivate people to get their butts back to BWL to be ready to buff and kill.
Could be worth a try...
Not to be nasty but: I've found that kicking someone from the raid usually gets very rapid attention from that player and the message also settles well into the minds of the other 38 raiders too. It only took 1.5 ZG raids for people to learn not to go AFK on me in ZG :laugh:
TL.
Indeed, like last nights raid.
[Teaelle]RaidWarning:
are you there? x 3
...
[Teaelle] On TS : I'm gonna kick you now, bye
or similar, people take it for granted that people will wait for them, so if you make it clear you won't AND set decent time and durations for breaks, then there's no excuse, carrot and stick scenario :D
Yea, the kick approach is very effective. :clap:
Quote from: TeaLeaf;149967Not to be nasty but: I've found that kicking someone from the raid usually gets very rapid attention from that player and the message also settles well into the minds of the other 38 raiders too. It only took 1.5 ZG raids for people to learn not to go AFK on me in ZG :laugh:
TL.
Yeah it sure was a very effective way, it got the mage's attention right away :tongue: I say try this method, that 2/3 people hold off the rest of the raid to get along with another try is ridiculous :angry:
Just off-topic:
How about trying to get Razorgore down after MC instead of Onyxia? That way we'll save LOTS of time and we sure to get atleast another kill in BWL :happy: Maybe not this coming thursday as we havent really mastered Razorgore yet, but if we have, I say lets get the ******* down after Raggy :thumb:
2/3? I assume you mean 2-3 rather than two thirds :O, take my suggestion under advisement, get all RG2 fitted with remote control cattleprod pants, RL gets the remote, fry someone's nuts if they don't respond in 3 seconds OR use it as a ready check :D
Quote from: Umbra;1502192/3? I assume you mean 2-3 rather than two thirds :O, take my suggestion under advisement, get all RG2 fitted with remote control cattleprod pants, RL gets the remote, fry someone's nuts if they don't respond in 3 seconds OR use it as a ready check :D
Sure aslong as I can have the remote :devil: