I now play my rogue now for almost 2 years(dont know presisly but since the bigging of wow)
But i still dont manages to find a way to make optical (hihi opticalrush hihi) yuse of it. If i am in a raid that is. because pvp i finaly get a hand in how to play that.
If i check the dpsreports in a run like mc ( i know not allowed, but a rogue should check his dps from time to time to see how he is preforming) and i always be on the last rogue posistion. (like the list will be somting like:
1: keltor 1000000000000 - 56%
2: aloha 123124 - 1%
3: nerferton - 0,99%
4: jeremy - 0.98%
5: some lock - 0.97%
6: me (noevra) - 0.01%
i tryed to be a dagger rogue, but than i even do worse damages, so respeced back to fistwapon.
if im fully buffed i have a crit rate of 35.15%
and normal hits are around 400 with crit
i serriusly think im doing somting rong. anny on know what?
I would take a talk with Bastet about it since he's a rogue and have played that class a long time, and you can talk dutch to eachother
He should get you on the right track
Dont count on it, i am also not very high on the meters, if you want some solid pointers id talk to keisuke, he pumps out some incredible dps :smile:
Im steadly on 3rd pos on dps in RG2 raids. On Vael i did 800dps (#1).
I could post you my spec if you like.
I have had Core Hound Tooth in main hand and Heartseeker in offhand. This made me crit for around 1500-1600 with the mob fully sundered (New crit record yesterday with 1660). The thing that really boosts your dps is when you use either aggression or blade flurry.
Looking forward to check out my DPS with the Perd blade i got yesterday :yahoo:
Its important to look on how your combos are put together. Its not just all about spamming BS or SS. You have to time your energy, combo points vs the mobs health.
Contact me in game Noevra and we can have a discussion on how your current build/playing style can be improved.
Quote from: Nefrion;153129Looking forward to check out my DPS with the Perd blade i got yesterday :yahoo:
That should be a nice upgrade. Post the results!
TL.
I`ll help out.
Being a rogue isnt about damage. It is how you use your combo points.
There are different ways a rogue can help out in raids.
MC: big Mobs, you can only use your combopoints on damage, be it evicerate or slice and dice.
BWL+other instances with more trashmobs:
You can deside yourself, DPS, or stuns. I cared avout the damage when first starting to raid, but soon enough I learned that being of help to your group or raid is even better.
How to get DPS in raids.
Combat dagger. What to do? Get the spec Bastet is using. This allows you for fast combopoints buildup. But NEVER wait for 5 full combopoints!
Combopoints that you dont have the ti,me to use is a waste.
How I would do it: Get in stealth, open with backstab, get 2 or 3 combopoints (2 combopoints when crit with combat dagger build)
Then do Slice and dice. Then meanwhile you do all the backstabs you can.
This means that you constantly have to run around placing yourself behind the mob. It isnt more to it than that. It is all about consentration.
The usual raids are often like this : All the rogues are semi afk just wandering about doing some damage when they arent reading their magazine or watching TV, thus the nr. 1 rogue or Warrior goes like "Wooooooh! I am number ONE on DPS metres"
When you get into BWL or other instances with lots of trashmobs, then you as a rogue can deside whether to use the combopoints for damage or stunning your enemy. Neither of the desitions is a waste of combopoints.
In any way, you are better off with doing lots of WHITE damage with slice and dice with daggers or fast wepons that doing eviserate.
If you are a dagger Rogue (which gives the best damage before you get REALLY nice epic swords) ALWAYS have SLICE AND DICE UP! In the meanwhile do BACKSTABS and the occational feint.
A fist wepon (in not a powerful one) does in your case 400damage as crit. That isnt good enough, adagger rogue can do 1500 crit damage. That is way more damage per used ENERGY point.
I dont wanna sound like a asshole. But if you want some tips from a guildie, ask ADULARENA about stuff. I can match any rogue regardless of their gear.
BASTET: your post didnt say anything exept to score up your POST COUNT. But since you are officer ,, I take it you have to give orders, take desitions etc WHILE you are fighting, thus you couldnt get further up on the scale. ( I bet your DPS is good thoug, or atleast damage dealt total divided on the time you actually fight)
NEFRION: VAEL is not a good fight to compare DPS.
One more thing: you have to be ready, once you get the DPS GO! signal, you should have landed a backstab withing 0.2 seconds. YOu got to get the feel for the WoW internal TICK TIMING (every 2 seconds) So you can time your attacks.
123: 2/3 combopoints, then Slice and dice, then do backstabs until your slice and dice is about to run out, then repeat. Always be on the move and always be ready when the fight starts.
DPS:
1. Warrior
2. Rogue #1 (new in guild)
3. Mage
4. Rogue #2 (AFK)
5. Rogue #3 (AKF)
etc- you all get my point
Vael is actually a good fight to compare DPS as rogues focus on DPS mainly. I dont like using slice and dice in MC on trash mobs. These mobs go down so fast that SnD is a waste of CP imo. If you use backstab all the time you wont be able to build up 5 CP on a mob before it is down. But you are right Adu, it is mostly about the CP. It is there the difference is. Rule number one: Do not let a mob go down with more than 1 CP. Waste of dmg.
Another thing to pump up your DPS is when youre fighting Firelords. Move in, get up as 3-4 combo points fast and wait for the spawn. When it comes then use your blade flurry along with evis and immediately start BS'ing again. This pumps your DPS up to around 500. If you have the 100% energy regeneration talent as well then you can really put some DPS in it. And in this case dont follow MA :norty:
I believe the thing that really push my DPS up is blade flurry and the right timing on CP's.
Some live, some die. Vael fight is fast and brutal.
you do a BS and die in 0,5 secs your dps might me 3K
But I think it is important to play according to your Build.
Do as you did in your last post, explain how you use your combopoints, timing, flurry etc that was a nice post I think :yahoo:
The way you say you are quick to move in etc, use your time wisely etc, that would most importantly show off in you Total damage done related to your Time in Combat (I think these are the terms). THis shows you if you have a high dps, because you only do chickenfights, or if you are slacking in combat.
Also, in MC, are you one of the guys that always attack the Core hounds (the ones that respawn) after they are dead because the attacks always land as a critical? Dps and damage and stuff, it is so fleeting.
And you say that MC trashmobs goes down so fast I dont bother doing SLice and Dice. When SoG started MC with Danu, Each Giant or elemental trash mob was a insanely difficult encounter. The mobs did huge damage to us, and they had a shitload of HP. THEN! we really had to maximise our dps.
Well, other than that, it helps if you arent a slowpoke IRL too.
Just to finish off the Vael subject: If all rogues are up when the fight is over it is comparable. This means that no one died or got burning adrenaline.
About being a slow poke irl as well- you are right. If you tend to turn on the telly and not pay attention you might wanna reroll a hunter and just spamming Aim Shots:lmfao:
As a rogue you move around constantly and if your mob turns and you dont turn as well it will cost you...
- Waste of energy
- Time for max DPS / BS
- Less combo points -> Less eviscerates
- Your life (if its a firepack/core hound or what ever has a breath of some kind.)
When you are fighting Annihilators and mobs a like you dont want to try and BS them down. If you can get one up first its great then use SS and SnD. This mob is randomly targeting people and turning constantly. You would want some nice steady DPS on it with SnD.
Oh, about Eviserates. Most players tend to think "wow! a 5 point eviserate crit = high damage!" but If I`m not terribly wrong, the eviserate doesnt scale overexponentially (what I mean that the damage base of a 5 point evi isnt more than the damage of a 1 point evi if you take the 5 point damage base and divide it on the number of combopoints). When writing this, I`m not completely sure about it, but it seems to me that a evicerate combopoint is as much worth damage wise regardless of how many points you have when using it. Ofc, using only 1 point eviserates makes you spend the eviserate cost of your energy more.
So. Do damage when you can, or as Nefrion wrote, while the mob is alive.
Also, for the mobs that run around like crasy, you can either sprint while tring to backstab or switch to a good i handed sword/mace whatever to get in some SInister strike damage as BAckstabs are harder to get in.
YAY! I missed some real Rogue talk here on the class forum! ;D:dribble:
You sure know your sh*t AddY! omg:D
thx for the great responce :D
i probely wont respec to dagger atm though. but the energie ballance is a good hint :) would love to try it on next raid
Quote from: Nefrion;153363Another thing to pump up your DPS is when youre fighting Firelords. Move in, get up as 3-4 combo points fast and wait for the spawn. When it comes then use your blade flurry along with evis and immediately start BS'ing again. This pumps your DPS up to around 500. If you have the 100% energy regeneration talent as well then you can really put some DPS in it. And in this case dont follow MA :norty:
I believe the thing that really push my DPS up is blade flurry and the right timing on CP's.
With 5 sunder on mobs I get around 1300-1500 BS crit along with Blade flurry you can double this damage if mobs are around - keep it quite though- :norty:
About the Firelords. You can double your dps, thats sure, but you dont do super dps to the mob you are targeting and the mob your flurry hits. So if the firelord spawn starts to hit you, then you are in trouble and wish you followed the MA.
Want to do some super damage, go for Adrenaline rush and blade flurry.
But then again, thats stupid and you should only do that at Onyxia when she is at 97%.
I have never died by using this combo with flurry and maybe adrenaline rush.
The firelord spawn doesnt do that great amount of dmg as you mention. And if it did it would need to be tanked.
ok, you arent in trouble because you get healed.
In later instances, unnessecary healing takes much effort from the healers and sometimes the healing should only be given to ViP classes etc.
I did write Firelord, but think of it as much more general.
I dont know exactly what nuber on the dps meters noevra comes, but since I posted, I guess it is low.
the blade flurry gives those extra thousands of damages needed if you are to compete against the damagemetre champions, but unnessecary if you want to do more than average damage in raids.
Quote from: Nefrion;153363Vael is actually a good fight to compare DPS as rogues focus on DPS mainly.
I know, I have 1200DPS on Vael, that was one-thousand-two-hundred. What did you have again?
But on topic, Adularena really has some epic info here, and believe me he knows what he is doing. Allthough Bastet has afair point; I would really like to know how the hell Keisuke does the ammount of DPS he does.
The fistweapons you use, aren´t they the ZG set? Embrace of the Primal Gods or whatever it´s called. They aren´t that bad I thought?
yeah got them :)
but use the main hand one and the brutalty blade for the crit bonus now a day :) ore i put in the dagger for the speeed. its the way i feel.
besites the damages i do is kinde down because i probely where a dreadmist head in mc a lot. and thent to take of my pents to show of my .....:g: sould that coses the dps lose?:doh:
Vargen you should know that you cannot compare rogue dps and dr00d dps on this fight.
But rogues between is possible as everyone is doing max dps.
And yeah you are probably much better than everyone Vargen. No doubt about that but what does that comment contribute to this topic?
Quote from: Nefrion;155464And yeah you are probably much better than everyone Vargen. No doubt about that but what does that comment contribute to this topic?
Nah, not just Vargen. Druids just plain rock at everything; why even have other classes? All you need is Dr00ds :norty: .
Any reasonably geared druid should get near 1000DPS on Vael, maybe we should hand out bandages to the rouges and let them heal instead :narnar: .
But seriously, I'd like to see Keisuke's comments in here as well. I've seen him play a couple of time and he does some serious damage indeed.
Quote from: noevra;155459but use the main hand one and the brutalty blade for the crit bonus now a day :) ore i put in the dagger for the speeed. its the way i feel.
Well, You dont want to use a fist weapon if you are aiming for damage.
You use alot of sinister strikes, thats cool. But since a sinister strike uses 40 energy regardless if the weapon damage is low or high, I`d recommend you to get a slower wepon in your main hand.
1 handed maces that can be obtained outside of raids:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=13006
1 handed sword:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=2244
What is in common for these weapons is their top en damage of 149.
The higher top end damage, the beter crits on your Sinister Strikes you can get. Also, I think that with using a 1 handed sword/mace you get more attackspeed Attackpower bonus with each hit.
Once you get your fingers in weapons inside MC, OL BWL etc, you can see the top damage done by 1 handed wepons (not daggers) go over 200 I think. THEN! sword spec will start to pay off.
Also! when it comes to Combat sword build. Menedil used a spec with Haemmorage. What HEMO does is that it gives you really fast combopoint generation. The HEMO costs 35 energy (I think) and does a little less damage than SS.
ANyways, what I think is the most important about being a rogue is to be the spec that you like to play, use the weapons you think a rogue should use and not try to be a fighter but a coward.
Well. . . .i think my dps is just cus i like playing my spec, it aint the best for raids i must say :smile:
well, its more of a pvp spec, but thats the way i like about it, fast combo points and such. . i probably would respec to something better to see "max" damage, like more of a combat spec.
Ain't much to doing alot of damage really, 100% concentration comes the best damage :smile:
Vargen starfire when burning dont count as doing dps. :boxing:
i can get 1100 dps measured over the entire fight :narnar:
Quote from: Adularena;155604Well, You dont want to use a fist weapon if you are aiming for damage.
You use alot of sinister strikes, thats cool. But since a sinister strike uses 40 energy regardless if the weapon damage is low or high, I`d recommend you to get a slower wepon in your main hand.
lot of bla bla
if i dont use a fist wapon i lose 5% crit chance. no beating that with a swort ore a mace
swords get 5% chance to get a free swing. not sure, i think it slightly favors swords.
Quote from: Nefrion;155464Vargen you should know that you cannot compare rogue dps and dr00d dps on this fight.
But rogues between is possible as everyone is doing max dps.
And yeah you are probably much better than everyone Vargen. No doubt about that but what does that comment contribute to this topic?
It was just ment to point out that Vael is not a viable fight to messure DPS. You have much higher energy regain rate, and that favours certain specs more then others. Just pointing out that Vael is special due to the buff you get. You are much better off messuring dps at any other
normal single target boss.
First of most of my knowledge with the rogue class in PvE comes from EJ forums though i have played my rogue in alot of 20man content.
Ok i will break this post down in alot of section for usefulness in raids
Talent Builds
Items
Tactics
Where to compare DPS
Talen Builds
Now there are clear 2 favorites for pure PvE damage those are the combat dagger spec and the combat sword spec. Maces aren't looked at to be that good because of the proc on Mace specialisation and Fist weapon's aren't looked at to be that good because of the lack of good fist weapons. But both builds can be built the same way as the combat sword build
Combat Dagger
This build can be varied alittle i am using 16/31/4 at the moment some like 15/31/5 and some 21/27/4. There might be a couple of more buils but in general you want 15 assasination and 25+ combat.
The most important talents
Malice crit is always good
Improved Slice and Dice read tactics
Lethality extra damage is always good
Relentless Strike extra energy is always good
Improved Backstab extra damage is always good
Precision if you hit more you do more damage
Dual Wield Specialisation about a 10% increase to white damage( 5% total DPS)
Dagger Specialisation crit always good
Blade Flurry fast attack is always good and if 2targets even better
Weapon Expertise read item section
Adrenaline Rush extra energy is always good
Opportunity extra damage is always good
Combat Swords
This build is almost always made 20/31/0
Malice crit is always good
Improved Slice and Dice read tactics
Lethality extra damage is always good
Relentless Strike extra energy is always good
Precision if you hit more you do more damage
Dual Wield Specialisation about a 10% increase to white damage( 5% total DPS)
Sword Specialisation Free hits = more damge
Blade Flurry fast attack is always good and if 2targets even better
Weapon Expertise read item section
Adrenaline Rush extra energy is always good
Opportunity extra damage is always good
Items
First of you want to get a mod called Theorycraft. It is a mod that shows you the average effects of your attacks and can tell you what would add most to your damage +10agi, +10str, 1%crit or 1%hit.
For Example i think at the moment 10agi will give my backstab 16AP, 10str 10AP, 1% crit 19AP and 1%hit 16AP.
You want +10skill bonus with your weapons for any fight against a lvl63 target(all bosses and some trash). Read my post in this section on +skill for more explanation
Easiest way to do this is by being human and having weapon expertise for swords
Weapon Expertise and Aged Coreleather Gloves for Daggers
Else it is the simple things like choose the weapon with biggest damage range in main hand.
Lastly i want to point you to a spreadsheet
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692
Tactics
Now the main thing is to always keep up SnD and not waste Energy and Combo Points.
On trash you want to start with 1combo point SnD if dagger or 2 if you are sword or you use adrenaline rush as a dagger rogue(start of each boss fight and when up on trash).
You want to get a combo point circle going for you for dagger rogue i think it is 1 SnD 3 SnD 5 SnD 5 SnD
Not sure but i think for a Sword rogue it is
2 SnD 5 SnD 3 Eviscerate 5 SnD
But the main thing is to keep SnD up at all times and use every combo point you get and not waste energy. Do a 3point eviscerate instead of hoping to get in a 4point eviscerate before the trash mob dies. If you are pulling fast or running between mobs in a pull, be sure to get the SnD of the Mob you are killing instead of having to gather combo points on the next mob.
Use Vanish if you need to moderate yourself because of aggro and do it often(every boss fight and when you can on Trash if it is single target)
Lastly the most important thing. Don't die, you might waste 160energy on bandaging but you would waste thousands by dieing.
Where to compare DPS
I would recommend these places for DPS comparison
Full MC clear
Full BWL clear
Full AQ clear
Ebonroc and Flamegor
Golemagg
Lucifron
Kurinaxx
Hakkar
Patchwerk(the best place in the game but not in your region soon)
fist spec isnt the best for boss fights as you cannot get 310 unarmed skill, so you will still get glancing blows.
combat specs are all about white dmg. aim for +hit items (NS shoudlers and gloves are infact better than BF equivalents for raid dps - but look crap, remember as a rogue your no.1 objective is to look awesome). 24% base miss rate for dual wield (or something) is a LOT of wasted dps. if you stick fist/sword you will have more combo points than you need to keep SnD up, so use evisc. if you ARE combat daggers (which is TERRIBLE for combo point generation), then snd like draz said, do a SnD when you get 1 muffin, then 3, then 5. 5pt improved SnD lasts for 30s. it takes 30 seconds to get enough energy to make 5 combo points with a non-SF backstab build. coincidence? i think not. use blade flurry whenever possible even if youre attacking only one mob. another 20% increased attack speed? yes plz!
i just looked at your profile, i dont know whether its upto date or not but i guess not as it has some kinda combat daggers spec, but i'll give some cc anyway.
no improved slice and dice - you went for imp evisc anyway, but with combat daggers you probalby wont evisc, ever. whereas you should be SND'ing all the time.
relentless strikes- this will make your SND cycles guaranteed cost 0 energy when you get to the 5 point SND stage.
an example would be - http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?005023104000000320305202055010020105000000000000000
the points in murder, endurance, imp sprint are just "filler" talents - they could go anywhere but theyre there just because tehres no where better to put them.
weapon expertise is the best talent in combat tree.
for fists then:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html? (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?205303105000000320015202005010523100000000000000000)205303105000000320015202005010523100000000000000000 (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?205303105000000320015202005010523100000000000000000)
may work for you.
Impr. Kick, isnt that one better than Endurance?
It sounds nice to me. i mean Silence is somewhat usefull. over a faster Sprint ready? or am i mistaken?
personal preference. i chose reduced cooldowns and imp sprint as the places to spend the spare 4 points because i hate being kited. making sprint break snares, and reudicng its cooldown = win
Also helps you run away faster if you are wiping :flirty:
Or if you have to chicken out of a duel :flirty: