Well, first off, Siff, this is not about you, and I think you know this.
Last night, it happened again, and like last time (Ref. this thread (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15664)) it was me who got the short end of the stick. An item was given to a hunter instead of a warrior/rogue first, that has clearly more use of it (in this case the Brutality Blade, last it was the Vis'kag the Bloodletter (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=36128)). I didn't want to make a fuzz about it last time, but someone else did it, as they were clearly even more angered about it than me, even tho it was me who "lost the loot". This time, however I'm too angry, too disapointed, too fed up to keep my mouth shut.
We had a lengthy discussion last about people using common sense and such. This clearly, as I said it wouldn't, doesn't work. It might well work fine for RG1, but as in many other matters, RG1 and 2 are not the same in many ways. This is, like I think TL mentioned last, about thinking of the impact it has on others, and of others could have better use of an item. I totally agree with TL on this, and this is how I would do it too, but not all people are alike. Either people don't care, don't think about it, or simply forget about it, and all of these scenarios leads to the same thing: Frustration for others.
I'm sorry for blowing off some steam at you last night, Siff, this was not your fault, but the insident with the Bloodfang Pants was just the icing on the cake that I didn't need. I was pretty worked up and most of all wanted to throw my pc out the window when the Brutality Blade was given to a hunter, but I didn't want to abandon the rest of you because of my "petty" frustrations, and kept on going. Thanks to the other rogues for your words of comfort. It's quite clear they were as surprised as me when we got the word that there no longer was any priority on some of the loot.
Anyway, I didn't write this note last night, cause I didn't want to write something that I would regret later. I however feel more or less the same, the difference being that last night you could have thrown in some curse words here and there.
I'm sorry, but I don't trust people to have this so called common sense in RG2, and so far I've been proven right. This clearly works wonders for RG1, but I think you guys have a much "closer" connection and, again, communicate a lot more.
A solution to this must be put in place, either change it back to priority, or we have to find a way to help people find their common sense. If not, you can consider this my resignation from RG2.
Ouch, I wasn't there last night but *sympathies to you* and please don't leave.
Has anyone considered the possibility that someone may whisper and simply not know if a class has whispered that might get better use? Don't know specifics, but was it clear to the hunter in question that you were 'really really' after the blade? After all it could be that it was a 'I really want it but I wouldn't take it off a rogue' thing. If not then as you say common sense is low.
If it makes you feel any better it doesn't always work wonders in RG1 (I've done it myself without paying attention) but it does seem to work better. Once people start appreciating other classes it makes things better. But don't distrust the whole of rg2 simply because of a couple of people who either don't know any better or won't.
As an aside, a couple of times I've /w for something and got a reply from ML (would you mind if a got it m8?) I didn't mind at all I jsut didn't know. TBH I'd rather there was some sort of priority check since otherwise, each person who wants an item has to find out who else wants it first.
I have to say that I understand you big time.
Have had the same kind of thought lately. Just for RG1. Lets take the 2 items from BWL http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51928 and http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51923
I have to say I woud have a really hard time inside my self if I see a priest take those items in front of a mage / lock. I do know that those are not class specefic items. But how much do a priest need the dmg compared to a mage / lock ?
So all in all ppl shoud maybe think abit more, when they whisper for a item.
I can imagine what you mean Zabard (aka Jemeny)....
I'm not gonna judge what is wrong or right here but I think it was about the Brutality Blade right?
I looked it up and the stat do show me a nice rogue weapon, and even a dps warrior. I don't mind the dkp sort out the loot but the common sense would be a rogue, dps tank, rest. Same happend to me with the spinal reaper axe...very nice dps for 2h ....lost it to a hunter as well.....
Hunters can use it that's true, but I would like to see how many times they use it, cause most of the time they want to range attack and that doesn't go allong together with melee weapons. Hunter do range attacks and true the agility is nice tbh but there are similair weapons for that I think. Seeing a hunter running around with a 2h axe would mean he has no arrows or bullets anymore.
I share the feeling about the common sence thing here as this is, to my opinion, rogue/dps tank prior to rest.
QuoteWe had a lengthy discussion last about people using common sense and such. This clearly, as I said it wouldn't, doesn't work. It might well work fine for RG1, but as in many other matters, RG1 and 2 are not the same in many ways. This is, like I think TL mentioned last, about thinking of the impact it has on others, and of others could have better use of an item. I totally agree with TL on this, and this is how I would do it too, but not all people are alike. Either people don't care, don't think about it, or simply forget about it, and all of these scenarios leads to the same thing: Frustration for others.
Im a bit confused here? How does the hunter know that a Rogue also whispered? People should whisper for what they want. Maybe the hunter could've whispered -low prio- but its up to the ML and Raid Group rules to decide where the item goes
QuoteTBH I'd rather there was some sort of priority check since otherwise, each person who wants an item has to find out who else wants it first
Just a comment on loot priority. Its a huge work to keep updated on the loot priority and ML's might not even share the same ideas. I would definately recommend we DONT do that
For the record - the hunter in question is me.
I am getting very VERY tired hunters always have to beg for new gear. The only things that hunters can roll for - without finding compains on the forum the day after - is hunter specific loot or bows/crossbows.
Well bows/crossbow im not really sure of - since someone always say "You can get way better weapons later on in the game..."
I rolled for the brutality blade because of the following reasons :
1. It has AGI - and if you dont know it - hunters need AGI just like rogues.
2. It has "Chance to crit" - and hunters, like rogues, can use chance to crit.
3. It is a 1h weapon - meaning i can get yet another weapon with AGI/Crit for added benefit.
I know rogues need the same things - but i simple cannot understand why hunters are not allowed to roll for things like this - or why we always has to be the last to get it!
It is very annoying that people feel that way - especially being a hunter that - like everyone else - would like to upgrade their old items!
Thats my reasons and thats why rolled for it - so now you know.
DonnieKingo!!!
Quote from: Padding;154696Im a bit confused here? How does the hunter know that a Rogue also whispered? People should whisper for what they want. Maybe the hunter could've whispered -low prio- but its up to the ML and Raid Group rules to decide where the item goes
This is just what I said myself last time we discussed this. The answer was that people should show consideration and whisper that they would pass to such and such class, but in your eager for something u'd like, this is easy to forget.
Quote from: Padding;154696Just a comment on loot priority. Its a huge work to keep updated on the loot priority and ML's might not even share the same ideas. I would definately recommend we DONT do that
I don't see this as something very hard to do, as some items are clearly better suited for some classes than others. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the brutality blade would benefit a dps warrior/rogue better than a hunter, and that a bow/gun would benefit a hunter better than as a "trinket" for another class to get some extra str/dex/whatever.
i think the dkp system as it is is good.
If a hunter wants to "waist" his dkp on the brutalty swort he sould be allowed to do so.
I ALSO think you have a point in using commen sens that a hunter sould know that a brutalty blade it probely better for a rogeu - warrior in the raid. So he sould check/ask if anny rogue ore warrior wants it. and than pass and wait till it drops the next time and a rogue dosnt want it. But this is still persenole. Some players in rg1/2 want loot because of the loot. Ore they make a mistake (did that once on a druid bracers _dooh_) of not knowing the item is probely better for a difrent class.
To set up a Loot priority is not the way to go. If blizzard intented for loot to be for 1 class only it would be stated so on the item itself.
I know it is some times frustrating that loot go's to a class you think is not the right class for the item, but if the persone realy wants it its the same way around.
This discusion is placed on a 1000 forms and a 1000 minds disagree ore agree on the subject, but the thing is that it will never realy be solved simply because there is no real rull
Donnie, of course hunters would want this item. Perhaps you and I are different here, I would not whisper for a bow/gun without without saying that i would pass it to a hunter if they want it. Remember that just like a bow/gun is to a hunter, a melee weapon is way more important to a melee character than a "trinket" as I call it is to another class. To you, a brutality blade is more of an item to hold extra stats/buffs, to me it's more or less what defines my character. This is where the famous common sense comes in.
QuoteI don't see this as something very hard to do, as some items are clearly better suited for some classes than others. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the brutality blade would benefit a dps warrior/rogue better than a hunter, and that a bow/gun would benefit a hunter better than as a "trinket" for another class to get some extra str/dex/whatever.
TRUST ME. Its really difficult with a LOT of items. Maybe this one is fairly easy (from your point of view) but in BWL there is a LOT of items that can be questioned
I'd like to think that guild spirit > loot, but unfortunately thats not always the case. If the Marshals (RG2) wants to make loot priority, thats fine. Im just saying that one persons loot priority, is not the next person. And it WILL create problems also
All nice and well, Padding, but some items are obvious enough that it would be real easy. We used to have a priority on the brutality blade before, don't tell me it would be difficult to have it again.
we never had priority on the brutalty sword.
i lost it to a hunter 2s before i got mine.
(mebay that's 2 far back though, it whas stil when rg1 whas doing mc and we didnt clear it all the way.... good old time:cheers: )
Quote from: Zabard;154701To you, a brutality blade is more of an item to hold extra stats/buffs, to me it's more or less what defines my character. This is where the famous common sense comes in.
This is what I feel to......it suits the rogue better...
Im very sorry that you feel that way - but i dont think it is as clearly as that.
Should i pass this blade for every warrior/rogue that wants it? How about if the warrior/rouge wants to use it as a secondary weapon or backup-weapon?
How are the lootmaster to know that? I cant whisper the lootmaster that "i want this item, but ill pass to a rogue/warrior if it is for their primary weapon, but if they want it for a backup-weapon/secondary ill grab it".
There is now way the LM would pass on that question to the warrior/rogue that whispered.
Well, not slagging you here donnie, but a rogue benefits from agi,crit AND the most valuable part on it, the dmg on the sword.
Just make it as a "thumb" rule that you whisper with "~if not a more "viable" class wants it".
But the spinal reaper? haha, sorry for laughing, but i'd feel stupid for running aorund with a wep. with that awesome pvp procc and dmg :P
I'm sorry people, I'm still fuming about this, and I'm sure I'm gonna regret some of the things I've written later on, but I figure that I need to get this off my chest.
After thinking about what Donnie wrote, it just proves my point even more. This is exactly the way of thinking that proves my point. When people think like this, it's kind of a slap in the face. "Screw you, I know this would benefit you more, but I don't care. Give it to me!"
If this is the kind of attitude we're to have in RG2, perhaps it's better if I just leave.
So you are saying that rogues/warriors can have all the weapons they want - no matter if they just want to put in their bag for a show-off-item - and that hunters can only roll for it if the LM says "Last call or it will be DE'ed"?
Im sorry, but that is how i read your last post. I have seen warriors in MC get 2-3 different weapons in MC over time - and they can use at most 2 at the time - so i am not allowed to upgrade my blue-axe until every warrior/rogue has all the weapons in MC?
I dont understand why people get so worked up about loot!?
1st of all its just a game.
2nd most dkp wins.
Hell, there was some items that i also wanted last run and this run and alot of other runs.. low dkp no items. Seriously cool down, it WILL drop again. I dont belive my eyes when i read posts like this, ppl that discuss a simple thing as loot. Instead of getting worked up you should rather be happy for DK for getting the item and improving himselfe. I would say at the buttom line is that you dont do this for loot but to have some fun with 39 other ppl and enjoy a good time together. Loot is just a minor reward for you're hard work.
"The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."
No, that's not what I'm saying, and I can't even remotely see where you read this in what I've been saying.
If people pick up items with priority just "for fun", then they are showing what I'd call bad judgement at best. I've seen that others having picked up the brutality blade before me have DE'd it later on, which annoyes me to no end, but I can only assume that they did this cause they got something better later on which would make it pointless for them to keep it in the bank for instance.
I myself picked up the Peredition Blade as one of (if not the first) rogues in RG2, this as a result of warriors taking the Brutality blade first, and me being a melee character seeing the obvious benefit of taking a much higher dps weapon, even tho it was not the kind I wanted, instead of what I was using. I've always been a sword rogue, but having gotten at the back of the que behind other rogues and warriors, I've had daggers for so long that many haven't seen me with anything else. When I now finally got to the front of the que for the blade, and the blade not dropping for our last 5 or so runs, it kind of snapped for me.
i totaly have to agree with u DK..
The loot rules are the highest DKP gets the item..
Im getting verry verry tired of the Hate between hunters and rouges, evry time a hunter gets a nice weapon some rouge will go in here and writhe about it..
now people stop it. if u dont have enougth DKP for overbid an other player, then u just cant get the item, perhaps next time or next time again.
wee should be happy for eachother and grats eachother for a new weapon, instead of wee are happy for eachother wee go and flame each other.
and i think its so childish of us to do that. its not just a rouge/warrior weapon, is a rouge,warrior and hunter why shoud a rouge or a warrior have more priority on it than a hunter?????
I think you're missing the point here, Claw, this isn't so much about the DKP, this is about working as a team. Seeing the obvious benefit that another class has for an item, and on purpose ignoring it (I was hoping that it was a slip, but it has been proven not to be) is something I don't want to be part of. It is not team work.
I am very sorry Jemeny, but how on earth am i to know if you prefer sword over daggers or the other way around?
I dont go around memorizing how every member of the raid is specced or equipped.
The bottom line is - i didnt do this to upset anyone and i didnt do it with a "screw the rogues/warriors"-attitude (if that is what you think!) - i did it because i thought it to be a nice upgrade to my good-old-stratholme-axe.
No, I'm not expecting you to know if I want that sword or not, there is no way for you to know, and that's why I want loot priority, or at least that the ML sends a message about a rogue wanting it, and giving you the chance to say "Ok, I see that so and so would benefit from this more, I'll pass then".
What disapoints me most, is that it seems there is a "war" between rogues and hunters here, and that we don't see eye to eye. I'd never do a similar thing on a ranged weapon. I'm sad to see this doesn't work both ways.
jeremy, if you say they de it later because they got a better one, and it frustrates me i kinde think your saying you cant loot annything in mc, only if you dont intent to do bwl.... because we all probely get better loot the longer we play.
besites, if we sould set up priorty on loot then whats next?
rogue daggers only
warriors only shields and 1 handed wapons
hunters only 2h wapons...
sorry but a Hunter can use it, it may not be the best charcter to be giben the sword but he will us it for a wile.
besites i got like 5 wapons atm that i hardly use (including the brutalty blade) but most of the wapons i used for a period of time and it fitted me well. To say that i souldnt have wispered(rolled) on those items because i probely get somting better is plain old stupid since i cant look un the feuther.
The dkp system is a specialy for the once like you. If you so badly want the brutalty blade DONT loot annything and get your dkp up so your highest on list when it drops agan.
A little side note.....
now we have MC on farm status we are stuggle ourselfs through BWL, and I can assure you that there will be phat lewt...
The spinal reaver is nice indeed for me, but I can't wait to get my hands on Herald of Woe now that we coming close to Flamegore...
So saving your dkp for bwl......and not forget to mention...the 20 man raid gives nice weapons to.
in the end we will benefit much more if we all get along and Jemeny I realy hope you'll not leave otherwise we will get another "new" drakki member...and we serieous need a commited group.
Getting new people into the raid everytime isn';t much of a help either, no matter what loot...... You cannot level up your raid group while we get new members everytime.
A quick comment from a ML, who tried the priority thing, and got flamed.
It's NOT easy, in any way. Its hard to use priority because there's so many oppinions about what's pri for who. But I think we might be able to find somewhere in between.
I'd like to try and do something else on the next raid. The ML will pay a bit more attention about which class is number 1+2 according to the dkp on a specific item. Then he sends a whisper out to number 1 about who's second - Tho only if according to the ML that's any sense in number 2 on dkp has "better use of it". The number 1 and 2 can have a 1 min chat about the item, the return to the ML with a solution within the timeframe. If the ML dosent get a response within the timefram - higher DKP person gets... maybe this could be tried?
I think the above posting shows that this can be viewed from at least 2 sides and the arguments given is fair enough from both sides.
It can be discussed who needed the sword most, or who could both use it, but i find the discussion interesting, allthough i bit harsh on words sometimes.
What do troubles me is that these things tend to happen over and over again, and thats not teamwork either. Personally i would say that the rogue prob has the best use for the weapon (isolated incident) however its a really nice upgrade for DK, and he cant really take into account what rogue has what weapons and what specc etc.
Its up to the Marshals and Field Marshals to decide what loot system we think is best generally, and we should all be aware of that, and follow that system, and then all get into the teamwork boat and sail the same way
I think it is a idea into the right direction...:boxing:
If there is a doubt on who gets the loot, it might be a good idea to let the two persons communicate.......
Communication is a good thing thou...
FFS. very time a guy don't get the loot he want, we see this kind of post.
Please remember we are 40 men during the raid and not you alone.
All 40 men have they right's to get some loot, something fit better to one person than another, so that's why Blizzard have made class item's but there are items who can be used by more then 1 class so why shut out anyone.
If you as hunter want to be with/use 2 1hand weapons(at the level where RG2 as atm), the BB is one of the better weapons for that, along with the axe from CC you will have some of the best.
I will definite whipser for it again next time it drop.
So Donniekingo, gratz with a great weapon.:yahoo:
(btw last time I think it was a paladin complaing about there was a priority rule on weapons) We can't make every 40 men happy every time!!!
So how about you just announce who whispered for the items and give them, what was already suggested, a 1 min timeframe to discuss who needs it more than others.
E.g, I would like to have Staff of Domination as a boost for my +dmg gear, but if I know there is a mage who still has a tier0 staff with no extra damage at all I would pass for them. But if I see that there are only druids or other priests whispering I would say let the DKP decide. (just a quick example, haven´t thought it fullly through)
But for one thing
Communication is the key!
Padding, thats pretty much what I said first. people who whisper don't know who else whispered, having priority might be a big job but it can't be as big as cumulatively, each person asking everyone else. But anyway, alot of these could be avoided if:
a) people knew who else was after it, common sense works on knowledge.
b) people accept that if someone has the dkp for it they've earned it.
a explained) as has been stated before, you can't really say i'd like it but not if class a or b wants it, unless its a backup, except clause c, h and etc etc etc, it's not viable. so it's easier just to let people know who is after it or at least classes that have asked for it.
b explained) regardless of what you may have waited for or what you think is better overall, the fact is, if someone has more dkp then you, accept the fact that that you might not get an item you're after. You wouldn't join a new company and say, 'I want the MD's bmw z3 because I' m a better driver', relax you will get your item, it just means that either a) the person has raided more, or b) you've bought more items. they have earned it. more than once I've wanted some lovely dps item that has gone to some other class, but, if they have more dkp, then i'll fume inside for 20 mins then accept they have earned their right with more time spent or by wisely saving.
I completely go with Noevra on this one.
"The dkp system is a specialy for the once like you. If you so badly want the brutalty blade DONT loot annything and get your dkp up so your highest on list when it drops agan."
I don't think that any1 in this guild just take loot just to have it, but because is it better than the one they had.
This is just a disgrace how badly the rogues in RG2 treat their hunters. Sure I've seen protection warriors take the brutality blade over hunters, now that IS a shame. It seems that the rogues here represent the most important class, or at least they are trying hard to seem like it. And just for that I would like every rogue that posts in this thread to name THREE melee weapons they feel are suited for a hunter. You may exclude AQ and Naxx. Only MC and BWL. Since obviously you don't know much about the hunter class I'll give you some tips to what stats they need. Crit/hit, Agi and maybe some AP.
And here is a draft for loot priority:
Rogues - Daggers
Hunters - Ranged
Warriors - Swords
That should solve it, shouldn't it?
Quote from: Sazgul;154723A quick comment from a ML, who tried the priority thing, and got flamed.
It's NOT easy, in any way. Its hard to use priority because there's so many oppinions about what's pri for who. But I think we might be able to find somewhere in between.
I'd like to try and do something else on the next raid. The ML will pay a bit more attention about which class is number 1+2 according to the dkp on a specific item. Then he sends a whisper out to number 1 about who's second - Tho only if according to the ML that's any sense in number 2 on dkp has "better use of it". The number 1 and 2 can have a 1 min chat about the item, the return to the ML with a solution within the timeframe. If the ML dosent get a response within the timefram - higher DKP person gets... maybe this could be tried?
This is what I do in RG1 btw
It would seem this discussion is a big waste of time. As I put in my answer to Claw, this has nothing to do with DKP, it's about how we work together as a team, and how people should try to be considerate towards each other. When people are totally void of the meaning of this, this is when things break down for my part. Is it only me that think this should be an obvious and fundamental part of what we are trying to do here?
I see our dear GM has posted a note while I was writing this. It seems he is of the same point of view as many of the other posters here. I stand corrected. Consider me a Soldier from now on.
Quote from: Sebas;154728So how about you just announce who whispered for the items and give them, what was already suggested, a 1 min timeframe to discuss who needs it more than others.
E.g, I would like to have Staff of Domination as a boost for my +dmg gear, but if I know there is a mage who still has a tier0 staff with no extra damage at all I would pass for them. But if I see that there are only druids or other priests whispering I would say let the DKP decide. (just a quick example, haven´t thought it fullly through)
But for one thing
Communication is the key!
Anathema (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18609) > Staff of Dominance (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18842)
How can you say that YOU getting loot because you are more important then a hunter is making the team stronger? I don't think it makes you any more popular with anyone other then yourself.
This discussion is not about ME, it's about RG2 as a group. It seems this discussion as the last one, has drowned in single items and single persons. Read my last post once more, I'm sorry if I'm that bad at communicating what I'm trying to say.
This is just F..... Unbeleavle how ppl can make a SINGEL item to such a humongus discussion and even leave the RG!?
Plz take some time and think about how childish this is.. Its 1 item, and item than even doesent exsist... its a game, a COMPUTER game, its an illusion, it will appear again.. I could understand if DK got the last Ferrari in the world, but a thing that even doesent exist... seriously its just lame to discuss such a thing...
As i mentioned before, instead of flaming eachother we should rather be happy for that person to get an improvment. The reason DK got it is he had more DKP and earned the blade. The blade gives +9 str +9 agi and +1% to crit.. and its usefull by hunters as much as rogues and warriors. WTH even a lolladin could use it..
Quote from: Zabard;154750This discussion is not about ME, it's about RG2 as a group. It seems this discussion as the last one, has drowned in single items and single persons. Read my last post once more, I'm sorry if I'm that bad at communicating what I'm trying to say.
you kinda are..
you use the blade to show how bad we communicate...
again there are NO class specifikation on it and its as much an improvment for Hunters as it is for rogues/warriors.
If the hunter thinks that its an improvment for him and he has the DKP theres nothing to discuss!? is there?
Quote from: Deadlyspirit;154694I have to say that I understand you big time.
Have had the same kind of thought lately. Just for RG1. Lets take the 2 items from BWL http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51928 and http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51923
I have to say I woud have a really hard time inside my self if I see a priest take those items in front of a mage / lock. I do know that those are not class specefic items. But how much do a priest need the dmg compared to a mage / lock ?
So all in all ppl shoud maybe think abit more, when they whisper for a item.
Thanks for the wonderfull comment Deadly, but im sad to disappoint you, i will at some point when i will be given the chance pick one or both of those items. not because im a greedy *******. which you may consider me, but because i do other things beside raiding. (i also think thats why we removed priority on loot, for RG1 at least).
Ofc i will consider passing, i have done many times before. BUT, please realize i cannot kill stuff with healing. i cannot melee... my only option is to cast spells. and none of my "supposed-to-be-close-to-godlike" gear. none of it supports spelldamage. Though, the entire spectra of Warlock and Mage gear supports Damage very well.
I wanna have fun aswell. that is why there is no priority.
YES raiding is fun, but i cannot raid 24-7, i need to grind mats, money etc etc. Rep... you name it i farm it... how can it be posible for a nub priest like me? i have been so lucky to be in a guild that actually smiles when they see people being able to shine more everywhere, that is at least how i feel it.
Ofc i could just respec to something more DPS favourable, but i truly doubt you wanna see the end of SOG raids because none of the healers can do anything but healing...
Druids, Paladins and Priests.
All of em want some gear that can be used outside raids. because most of our players do infact spend more time outside than inside raids.
You guys that pulled the long straw or whatever you wanna call it. should be smiling.
Yes yo dont have priority on the BEST of the best. but your entire wardrobe is only adding to your massive pool of whatever is needed. AP or Spellpower etc.
Let the ME have some fun. dont teach me about common sense, when you obviously lack it.
Luthor
Luthor
But annyways just becuse u are a meele class you shouldent get the priority on it. hunters just as warriors and rouges have the abillity to use swords and daggers, and all 3 classes can do meele depends the spec..
but again, a weapon with agility, and % to crit is a hunter weapon as much as it is a rouge and warrior weapon.
rouges just uses a lower amout of agility to get a % to crit than a hunter so?
agility for an hunter is % to crit and doge so its so lame complning about a foolish weapon that will drop again, its not the end of this weapon. so give it a bit paitence and you will get it.
QuotePosted by: Vargen
And here is a draft for loot priority:
Rogues - Daggers
Hunters - Ranged
Warriors - Swords
i will need to dissagree with u there m8..
Luthor has a point there...
Jemeny, i hope you'll take some time to reconsider staying in the group. I really dont think loot should decide whether you are raiding a not. I understand your frustration, but consider the big picture. Its a game and you'll get the item next time
I think we (as a guild) should ask ourself the question...are we raiding for personal gains (solo grinding, pvp or whatever) or for the group (instance progression)?
As long as we have people with different goals we keep getting discussions like this.
The fact is we use a system to reward the effort thats put into raiding. The more you raid the more you get rewarded. If you never spend any dkp you get the pick of the loot, if you spend dkp like its water on every epic you like then people will always get the loot before you.
You yourself have had 14 epics to date from raiding and used roughly half of the dkp you earned. So of course there will be people that are higher than you and want the same loot. Infact Donnie during his time with us has only recieved 13 epic items from raids so you could say that you had actually benefited more than he had.
I don't begrudge anyone getting loot if they can use it, at the end of the day thats the system we use and everyone knows that when they join up.
There are many items I would like to improve my spell damage and I know that the ones I need/want are also wanted by a dozen or so people above me in DKP. Do I cry that its going to take me weeks and weeks to get what I want(need) to improve?, no because I know my turn will come and I can wait patiently to get rid of my last 2 blues.
As other people have mentioned you need to use the system to your advantage and if there is only 1 uber item that you want then you have to make sure you and only you are in a position to claim it, if that means saving dkp then thats what youll have to do.
Consider this...if you were a mage or a lock and saw a mageblade given to a loladin you wouldnt be too happy. well it's happened plenty of times because they had the DKP and the ability to use it and benefit from what it gives. I personally dont begrudge anyone asking for loot they can use.
Jemeny my sympathies, I can clearly understand your point though many don't pay attention to the ettential part of the thread.
there is little or none communication between the ML and the guys whispering for a loot = ML has to decide alone.
Highest DKp is MLs best friend as it will end discussions and flaming? obviously not.
To those who say it's only a game and- loot is not a problem? you will get it later or get better one. These are easy to say when it is not you it is about. And consider also this, we are not going to play WoW for the rest of our lifes so when something drops that many want it, justice must be done, and I see only 1 way of justice, those those who have played longer than the other have priority in this case not the "Highest Current DKP" but the "Highest Lifetime DKp" if this system is implemented everyone can get what they want in time. Ofc common sense is always needed and in this case it is up to marshals to decide. That's why marshal should have a history of what loot that player has got and if it really is a serious upgrade. If it is a huge upgrade to a player with 5K lifetime dkp and a small upgrade to a player with 5.5k lifetime dkp obviously it should go to the dude who makes huge use of it...
in case of hunters:
as Vargen mentioned, % to hit, agi and AP comes first for hunter.
I'd rather say(imo)
1) Descent ranged weapon
2) % to hit
3) Crit
ammo/arrow too ofc :)
then you can think about extra agi as agi is 52/crit for hunters
Rogues:
As Jemeny said in first post, what defines a melee class in their melee weapon so the most important thing to rogues imo:
Rogue need high damage, survivability is a small faktor because you must kill your opponent very fast. and that is what makes us deadly enemies :)
1) Descent Melee weapon
2) % to hit
3) Stat (agi)
then thing about other stuff.
Brutality Blade for hunters:
1) No % to hit
2) 9 AP
3) 1% crit
Score: 5 / 10
Brutality Blade for Rogues
1) It'll cut through metal !!
2) 9 AP
3) 1% crit
Score: 7 / 10
Ofc everyone is free to do what they want but beware your actions have an impact on others.
In the end I like to encourage Marshals take more time on deciding loot and have to agree with Jemeny here: The "Common Sense" is not working very well so please make some priority on loot.
consider my suggestion about "Lifetime DKp" instead of "current DKp".
to Vargen:
in main hand : http://www.thottbott.com/?i=51839
off hand : http://www.thottbot.com/?i=53861
&
Polearm: http://www.thottbott.com/?i=53926
P.S stop talking about the non sense I'm stepping down as defender Jemeny ... we have alot to do in BWl together :)
I found this interesting:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html;jsessionid=F16F96C1A2353D11A9B9945E8F7C634D?topicId=12884148&sid=1
Quote from: shadowscream;154763To those who say it's only a game and- loot is not a problem? you will get it later or get better one. These are easy to say when it is not you it is about.
Not true.. I think EVERYONE that has been raiding for some time has tryed it. And it is that easy to say, bad luck next time!
fx
I could also use brutality blade to dualwield but thats no reason to flame about it.
Obsidian edge blade dropped also, wich i could use. but a warrior (with better weapon) got it. Np... it dropped again same evening then a pally got it.. and you know what? doesent matter cause it WILL drop again. (ppl with higher dkp are ofc allowed to get it cause they have earned it.
Spinal reaper dropped, and a hunter got it. And still doesent matter cause it will drop again.. have patience. Ppl wisper for items they can use cause its and improvement for them in one way or another. And what if it isent? well doesent matter cause again they have been raiding over and over to get that certain weapon, and they have also lost it to others, but they congratulated them and went to the runs over and over again untill they finally get it.
More important is if we show improvement in BWL, we will get better loot, like Maladath. Chromaticlly tempered blade, aso. aso. and compared to these weaps brutality blade looks like a butter knife. So why get som bummed over 1 singel weapon that will drop again?
And as ppl have mentioned there are still, ZG and AQ runs wich also got weapons that actually are better in 1 way or another!
shadowscream 45 agi = 1 % to crit @ hunters
Quote from: Claw;154767shadowscream 45 agi = 1 % to crit @ hunters
Correction 54 agi = 1% crit
Brutality Blade for hunters:1) No % to hit2) 9 AP3) 1% critScore: 5 / 10 9 agi for hunters is 18 rap. score 8/10.
Quote from: Manny;154769Correction 54 agi = 1% crit
Brutality Blade for hunters:
1) No % to hit
2) 9 AP
3) 1% crit
Score: 5 / 10
9 agi for hunters is 18 rap. score 8/10.
yeah but too bad hunters can't use it to throw arrow/bullets with it, if you need correction it goes like:
Brutality Blade for hunters:1) No ranged weapon2) No chance to hit 3) 1% critScore: 2 / 10 I was being mild :D
shadow who said that % to hit is just for hunters, rouges, and specialy warriors needs it, in the matter of that fact all classes needs it
And this whole thread demonstrates amply why Officers use a 'highest DKP' system. Different people view things in different ways, so you'll never have a fully agreed priority list and you'll never have the time to work it up.
If you earn the DKP then expect to be able to bid on the item.
If you're not highest then don't expect to win it - thus avoiding the potential feeling of loss.
Hope that a fellow player will consider raid benefit - it works real well in RG1 most of the time - but do not expect it - thus avoiding the potential feeling of upset if it is not passed to you.
Raid more. Then you'll have the DKP to whisper for it next time.
When RG1 was doing MC, I did not get an Azuresong Mageblade until after a pallie. It happens to us all, it's a game, move on, earn DKP and spend it when you are top DKP on an item you want.
TL.
Quote from: Claw;154781shadow who said that % to hit is just for hunters, rouges, and specialy warriors needs it, in the matter of that fact all classes needs it
a missed/dodged aimshot is a big loss to a hunter in the other hand if i get miss/dodge on BS or SS I don't lose full energy i can do it again after 2 sec, hunter loses mana and gets cooldown on aimshot.
Btw Shadowscream, AGI = RAP anyway, so it doesn't matter where the AGI comes from, be it a neck item, a ring or a weapon. RAP = basic dps, and is formed by all items.
Therefore Manny's assessment stands.
Gotta say guys, particularly to Jemeny, I picked up a Brutality Blade after all the RG1 rogues had it, and I'm still using it, 9 months after because I haven't found a better melee weapon.
On what possible grounds can you claim discrimination against rogues when quite clearly it is the best melee weapon DK will have access to for a long, long time?
As we say in Norn Iron, wind yer neck in, it'll drop again, and by the time it does you'll probably have something better in that hand anyway,
Quote from: shadowscream;154763to Vargen:
off hand : http://www.thottbot.com/?i=53861
&
Polearm: http://www.thottbott.com/?i=53926
Never seen those drop in
Molten Core nor
Blackwing Lair tbh :rolleyes:
Quote from: shadowscream;154763Brutality Blade for hunters:
1) No % to hit
2) 9 AP
3) 1% crit
Score: 5 / 10
Brutality Blade for Rogues
1) It'll cut through metal !!
2) 9 AP
3) 1% crit
Score: 7 / 10
OK, I might not be the best on maths for the weapons, but you are saying hunters shouldn't get it because you watch TV-Shop? Come on, sure a Rogue can hit hard with that, but it is probably one of the only blades for a Rogue that a Hunter would even consider. As Lucian said, he still uses the Brutality Blade. It is a damn good blade for any class, so please be serious.
Quote from: shadowscream;154763To those who say it's only a game and- loot is not a problem? you will get it later or get better one. These are easy to say when it is not you it is about. And consider also this, we are not going to play WoW for the rest of our lifes so when something drops that many want it, justice must be done, and I see only 1 way of justice, those those who have played longer than the other have priority in this case not the "Highest Current DKP" but the "Highest Lifetime DKp" if this system is implemented everyone can get what they want in time. Ofc common sense is always needed and in this case it is up to marshals to decide. That's why marshal should have a history of what loot that player has got and if it really is a serious upgrade. If it is a huge upgrade to a player with 5K lifetime dkp and a small upgrade to a player with 5.5k lifetime dkp obviously it should go to the dude who makes huge use of it...
Stop fantasizing about alternate systems. There are a lot of systems and ways to do loot. And they all have ONE big fat flaw in common; There will ALLWAYS be someone unhappy about not getting something or dissagreeing with the system. This is a Field Marshal call, and it has been up for discussion before.
The system stays, you knew about the system before you started raiding. My greatest fear with RG2 is that the members lack a sence of belonging and the bonding as a team. If loot is such a HUGE issue, Rogues and Hunters should literarily put down your blades and discuss in a mature fasion. Try to map who wants what and so on. Sure you don't have to be friends, but I would be glad if you could sort this out in a more friendly way then crying like children and flaming on the forums.
I believe someone mentioned communication to be a key. I don't think flames and rants was what they had in mind. Gear gets a lot less class spesific the further you get in BWL, so you will need to work together.
Quote from: Vargen;154799Come on, sure a Rogue can hit hard with that, but it is probably one of the only blades for a Rogue that a Hunter would even consider. As Lucian said, he still uses the Brutality Blade. It is a damn good blade for any class, so please be serious.
I hope you're right, and I am serious, what do you say to this: http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15664 ?
btw I'm not dreaming about new systems, just pointing that the ones who have put more time in MC/OL should have greater priority to those who recently joined and stacking up dkp for loot.
I do however agree with you, we should make a list over the things we want and talk about it so we know who wants what.
Starting with me:
I've been dreaming of a sword build since I hit 60 but as you know it is hard to find descent blade.
List of things I need from MC&OL:
1)Vis'kag the Bloodletter
2)Brutality Blade.
Well, soon enough those will be traded for Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19351) and Chromatically Tempered Sword (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19352). But the hunter will still be using his Brutality blade.
Quote from: shadowscream;154802just pointing that the ones who have put more time in MC/OL should have greater priority to those who recently joined and stacking up dkp for loot.
The point is that the people who have raided the longest have already been rewarded by the epics they have already recieved. Again if you choose not to take epics then you would be high up the dkp list to get that special item you want.
Just to use the example of the two players this thread was created about:
Donnie first raided 10 days after Jemeny started and as a result is currently 235 behind in lifetime DKP which is about 3 full MC runs worth of DKP. However going by the DKP site both have attended the same amount of MC runs (41) so going by what you say, even though Jemeny started raiding first in MC the fact is that from that date to now, they have both put the same amout of effort into MC having attended the same numeber of runs, therefore you can argue that they have an equal call on such an item as the blade.
However, Donnie has had 1 more Onxyia Kill than Jemeny so by your logic (MC/Ony) that means donnie would have priority anyway.....
brut blade is a better offhand than maladeth unless its a boss fight.
but your point is valid.
Quote from: Vargen;154805Well, soon enough those will be traded for Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19351) and Chromatically Tempered Sword (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19352). But the hunter will still be using his Brutality blade.
Besides, if that blade was that important to you, why weren't you top DKP then? You can't have everything at once. If I really wanted something that wasn't class spesific, I would wait with getting my class spesific items till I had gotten the non class spesific item. Less competiton less frustration though you might be stuck with the same armor for a while. Right now, that isn't a problem for me at least, since I'm not really in a hurry to get rid of my lovely tier 2 untill Dreamwalker reinment starts showing up.
Quote from: Menedil;154809brut blade is a better offhand than maladeth unless its a boss fight.
but your point is valid.
As he pulled the "Raid benefit" card, it is a valid point in deed :flirty:
Actually any raid fight the maldath is better since more then 50% of the raid fights are lvl63+ and unless you are human or have weapon expertise the +skill helps alot on the 62 fights also.
For how hard or easy it is to track what item should go to what class it is very simple and a ML should know it for about 95% of the loot that goes out just by looking on the item if unsure he could check this site
http://www.wow-loot.com
And it is very simple common sence doesn't work well when the person using it is involved in the matter since objectivity dissapears.
Sorry but like.... its a BRUTALITY BLADE, wait till next week and it'll drop again, think this is being blown a little out of proportion here, sure, if it was a legendary, maybe make a post, but jesus, you have this guy on farm, just wait a week or whatever.
Quote from: Sinap;154827Sorry but like.... its a BRUTALITY BLADE, wait till next week and it'll drop again, think this is being blown a little out of proportion here, sure, if it was a legendary, maybe make a post, but jesus, you have this guy on farm, just wait a week or whatever.
not everyone raids every week, and not exactly farm status, we RG2 decided that it was time we do BWL so the MC we did was a sidekick due to lack of certain classes BWL got canceled that night.
legendary, epic doesn't matter the act it self matters.
Quote from: shadowscream;154828not everyone raids every week.
Why should they have the weapon then, if you not raiding every time, then it will not benefit the raid?
Point made GD.
I realy don't like to see such a post like this because it will bring tentions into the raid group, and we must get a solid group....
Jemeny, plz reconsider and you'll get your BB or better in the near future.
D.
Signing out on this thread.
Hmm, long post, now i did read all this and i have some of my own opions which you will probebly not like. But here goes.
I dont think the thread title here we go again is in order. Vis isnt good for a hunter, where this is one of the best hunter melee weapons due to the stats. Also if said hunter has more DKP then you, under the highest dkp wins one can say its totaly fair, he has more dkp, he has more right.
Now you can say that system aint fair since its not in the best intrest in the group. Maybe, but it takes a while for everyone to adjust to the system, it took a while for RG1, and its working rather neat now.
Then again, i fail to see how these rather annoying bitchy posts about it are in the best intrest of the group. The make the hunter that bought it feel bad, and gets everyone up on the us vs them stands which its rather hard to get them of off as a Raidleader.
Lastly if youd really cared about the raid group, youd be happy for one of your fellow raids to get a darn good sword and congratulate him with it rather then comming here to **** on the raid, guild and officers for the systems that are in place.
I think that maybe this topic should be closed.
Quote from: StrontiumDog;154852I think that maybe this topic should be closed.
....last time I did that the Officers got a bollocking from people for stopping free speech. One things clear, nobody is happy all the time, but the majority move forward happy.
If you consider this thread closed then please stop posting.
TL.
Quote from: shadowscream;154828not everyone raids every week, and not exactly farm status
Dont expect to get anything by being a part timer then, the idea is that raiders attend neare enough every raid to make the attendance.
Also, when was the last time you spent a night wiping on Garr and called it a night because you just couldnt do it and had to go farm more potions for dps and what not?
Quote from: Sinap;154874Dont expect to get anything by being a part timer then, the idea is that raiders attend neare enough every raid to make the attendance.
Also, when was the last time you spent a night wiping on Garr and called it a night because you just couldnt do it and had to go farm more potions for dps and what not?
hey I wasn't refering to me, I have more than 80% attencance on rg2 my point was that we don't do MC that often in rg2 since we decided to do BWL
now I'm gonna stop posting here no matter what you say :narnar:
Just a few things.
I named it here we go again because last time this happened, we had a large disucssion about it. People said that we should rather let common sense rule than having a loot priority. I disagreed with this, because I see that this doesn't apply to many people. I argued that I felt we should keep it the way we had it. So, after it finally drops (it didn't drop for aprox. a month), it gets handed to a hunter. There never went out any information about we dropping loot priority, the other rogues were as surprised as me. Now this is only a single incident, but as I mentioned before, I was on the other side of the table last time this happened as well, and now being "the victim" of this one as well, in addition to learning that we no longer had priority made me quite mad, tbh. Treating people differently is something I'm no big fan of. What's more, after our lengthy discussion about using common sense and seeing that I was right and that the system of whispering of others with perhaps more use of an item not being used either made me more angry.
I also said earlier I would regret saying some of the things I said, and I do. I'm sorry this caused such a big fuzz, specially to Donnie. I feel a lot better now, specially after seeing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4&eurl=) video.
Quote from: Zabard;154887Treating people differently is something I'm no big fan of.
Good, because we treat them all the same. You got DKP, you can buy it.
We do not control people or their version of CommonSense(TM) v2.1.
It's a game, it will drop again real soon and you can get it then. Move on please, because the alternative is an administrative nightmare and you'd be opening the WoW equivalent of Pandoras' box and stretching raid times into days not hours whilst we debate the 'true' version of 'priority' for each item.
TL.
donnie's upgrade was much bigger than a rogue going from a 58 dps dagger -> 51 dps sword.
now this topic is about teamwork and common sense. so some ppl here think donnie taking this sword is not improving the raid? is there some1 out there who still reckons this was not common sense?
jaysus i see test realm and tier 2.5 hunters with a BB, its GOOD for them and the more BB they get, the less chromatically tempered sword they'll take from melee classes (dooms edge in BWL should be their other weap or 1 of the warblade/fang of the faceless/aq dagger i reckon).
i rest my case
TL, I did all what was required by the rules, I got the most DKP of the warriors/rogues and waited my turn. However, when they change the rules on you without telling you, I bet you'd be annoyed too. Anywho, case closed.
So you didn't have the most DKP then. You had the most DKP amongst those you inadvertently assumed would be the only classes needing it - you were wrong as someone else thought they needed it *and* had higher DKP - so they did everything according to the rules. You forgot that others have a right to loot too - no item comes out with your name on it. We keep saying it - it will drop again, lots, so move on. Only assume you'll have the choice of taking an item when you are at *the* top of DKP list of all possible users for that item.
I really hope you get the item you want soon, but seriously, when you're not top of the DKP list then don't expect to get it. Then you'll have a series of pleasant surprises and never be disappointed.
TL.
I think u're being unfair in the way u judge this TL. We used to have a priority on Warriors and rogues on this, and I was on top of the DKP of those classes on the ones needing it. That priority was remove was not announced, it was talked about doing it, yes, but not announced that it was done. Like I said earlier, other rogues were just as surprised as me.
Well you probably see it as harsh, but I'm trying to help you recognise that dragging this out is not changing anything. Whilst it is arguable that the RG2 Commanders did not post anything re their current loot system, they had been using it for some time and it was common practice. In addition, I doubt you'll find a post announcing the 'old' loot system, but people got used to that too.
I really am sorry that you did not get 'your' loot, but someone else who also needed the item and had mroe DKP than you did. Personally I'd leave it at that and move on - there is plenty of loot to go around. As I said earlier, I've suffered the waits myself when I wanted an Azuresong Mageblade so I do know what it is like to not get loot that you want, but you need to be prepared to queue for it and run with the system that is in use currently.
TL.
/yawn
Rogues, Hunters, Warrios, Pallies and Druids can all benefit from the same stats. DKP defines the 'queue' for loot by effort put in.
The work of an ML is giving something to one person, that the rest didn't get. I think I have never heard someone ever say to someone being ML; "Great job on ML" or "Good call on that one. Was a hard one".
I must say, feedback on the loot system is allways good, but don't assume it isn't thought through and debated before. I myself try to be diplomatic and check around a bit what would benefit this and who would be angry with that. But I also need to be quick, as if loot is slow it holds back 30+ ppl that want to move on usually. You can talk all you want of priority, and I will pretend to care, and then say NO at the end. I wanted priority removed to put some of the 'heat' on the members themselves rather then it allways beeing the ML getting the cold buckets and the steaming flames.
Bottom line on this particular issue:
If I still see a Rogue using Brutality blade when RG2 kills C'tun, I WILL admit it is a equally good blade for a rogue... Maybe
haha let us finish BWL firs before talking of c'tun ;)
Quote from: DonnieKingo;154698For the record - the hunter in question is me.
I know rogues need the same things - but i simple cannot understand why hunters are not allowed to roll for things like this - or why we always has to be the last to get it!
DonnieKingo!!!
I think it is a ok wepon for a hunter. After all, if you have less DKP, then you should be VERY GLAD if you GET it, but you cant be mad if you DONT GET IT.
But ofc, looking away from the stats, it is a good rogue sword.
I think I`ll say that Rogues should use daggers :P
IMO rogues have no use of swords untill they reach a far point in BWL. Daggers ftw :biggrin:
Quote from: Nefrion;155331IMO rogues have no use of swords untill they reach a far point in BWL. Daggers ftw :biggrin:
combat daggers w/ slice&dice IS by far the best rogue build for boss fights, at any gear lvl above tier 0
mm, CTS & Nightmare blade / maladth.
Meh, Perd blade + Brut.blade is the "best", right? :P
Quote from: Neff;155591mm, CTS & Nightmare blade / maladth.
Meh, Perd blade + Brut.blade is the "best", right? :P
nope!!
Enlighten me then you tit!
L2Read Neff!!