Post comments and feedback during the trial here please.
TL.
Priests... well im pretty much at the middle... on healing gear and on DPS gear :|
Well if you want me to go DPS. fine... but let me know so i can respec.
As it (just looked a bit at BWL and AQ loot tables) Druid(Caster) is Druid(Healer) not that I want cloth with +spell atm but I would like some rings/trinkets with +spell dmg and some T2.5 somtime before BC as I will respec to Mighty OOMkin Owlbeast when talents will be released! :)
think it looks quiet fair to me
So are we supposed to choose one specific spec? as i see it the guild benefit more of having all the multipurpose classes doing more than one thing. My spec atm is (healing / DPS) which means i do both, depending on the situation, would prefer not having to choose...
but if u want me to choose i choose DPS
Quote from: Gallahan;158592So are we supposed to choose one specific spec? as i see it the guild benefit more of having all the multipurpose classes doing more than one thing. My spec atm is (healing / DPS) which means i do both, depending on the situation, would prefer not having to choose...
but if u want me to choose i choose DPS
We are asking ppl to define their role. Weather or not we can have that many in that role will be looked upon later. Just put
Paladin - DPS. Then you will get loot priority according to the appropriate field on the list.
This is not a discussion thread. If you want to post anything other then your class and role, use the other thread (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=158541#post158541) ment for comments.
At first glance, can't say I am really happy about this. Waited a damn long time for some nice swords/daggers to drop to finally replace my old blue items and now that I do have the DKP (or getting close to it), I can wait some what longer again because items are being "prioritised".
Ah well, we'll see how this will work out.
Im hate to sound negative, but im one of the persons who thinks this system is completely unnecessary in an ideal world
Unfortunately time and time again, we've proven that some people care about it, and therefore i understand why its important to do so
Mantra: Some loot pr day, keeps the /gquit away :D
Quote from: Padding;158656.......in an ideal world
Are we there yet? Unfortunately not as members have proved several times over the past few months.
TL.
QuoteAre we there yet? Unfortunately not as members have proved several times over the past few months
I said so myself in my own post ^^
I support whatever the FM's want to do, i just think its too bad we have to do it :rolleyes:
Sorry, early morning post - I was agreeing and trying add some humour with the 'are we there yet'
TL.
I can agree with Neb that hunters are being set aside because of the way hunters are made... we can use almost everything but have very few classpriority things, and because of that we will be last to get some stuff because of this. A good example of this are our current Gearstatus! i think its only Me And Tanales that got dual Epic melee weapons in RG1. So this will prolly set back the upgrade for some of the hunters in stats from weapons.
But i must say that this is a good thing to try to end the endless discussion about Loot and no matter what system we choose there will be classes that arent content!!! :g: And with this system there are prolly hunters:sad: But we must prevale like Hunters always do:flirty:
Best regards Rata
Ive never been much for a prio system, as i feel it should be up to the individual to judge what one needs and so on.
but i guess thats easy to say, being a hybrid class and all..
nevertheless one cannot turn his thumb down untill its been tried, i salute the fact that the officers are trying to accomodate those not satisfied with the current system (allthough i like it)
Cheers
Garagrim
I for one, think that the decision to use the combination of both systems is a sensible and also a fair one.
Hopefully this will stop the weekly rants and /gquit.
gg lads.
Having mixed feelings about it, but accepting it fully.
Remember, people are still free to pass loot to others if they want.. Some still have common sense, and are not that greedy.. :)
Good thing you made it a trial period, and not just forcing it down our throats. And the system might just work well.
i dident want to turn the other post to a discussion post, but i got some comments. I know its Decided by the FM's, thats nice, but i think its also important to get everyone's opinion about it, and here is mine.!
- Why shouldent pllys get same prio as warrios as they can use the dps gear aswell?
I can see that i can get everything i ever wanted in MC just in one run due to priority. Thats nice, but not fair!
I know there are some dps pallys that want the same gear and do GOT more dkp, its mostly fair that they get it due to more dkp, they have earned it for a reason.
Just an example:
DPS gear... prio DPS warriors
Healing gear... prio Healadins
??? .... what do DPS pallys get? do they have to wait to be the LAST in line to get both healing and DPS gear?
I can see it being useful, but as I posted before (move post if you want) they seem to have oversimplified the class specialisations e.g.
they just have priest - no healing/dps discrimination
warr, just tank and dps, fury dps kit is quite different from arms dps, or even dw fury different from 2h fury. (+to hit, then +crit, then AP are primary for dw fury)
no bad comment to officers, but the tables of priorities could do with some additions/tweaking
I think the main argument you can here from a warrior would be that Pallies don't use the DPS-gear for raid but only grinding and PvP.
I don't care anymore really.
Gotta say tho.. this has been discussed so many times by now, warriors vs. pailles, hunters vs. rogues, druids vs. rogues.. All of em and the end of the discussion seems to be non-excisting :doh:
Quote from: Nefertem;158792I think the main argument you can here from a warrior would be that Pallies don't use the DPS-gear for raid but only grinding and PvP.
I don't care anymore really.
Gotta say tho.. this has been discussed so many times by now, warriors vs. pailles, hunters vs. rogues, druids vs. rogues.. All of em and the end of the discussion seems to be non-excisting :doh:
You have a point :)
There should be the possibility to use a certain specc when in instances, and out of instances.... that would be KEWL
Quote from: Padding;158796There should be the possibility to use a certain specc when in instances, and out of instances.... that would be KEWL
Woot and such a think you'r asking from BLIZZARD?? the day that happens is the en of..... something.. :P
Quote from: Padding;158796There should be the possibility to use a certain specc when in instances, and out of instances.... that would be KEWL
It's called DPS warriors. :P
edit: Oh wait, you mean have 2 specs? :P switchables specs..yeah..that would like..make talents useless at all rly.. haha Anyhow, as for DPS Paly's, afai can see, in the wowloot list, dps wars and paly's get usually the same ratings on dps items, so whats the problem? :)
Agree, Umbra.
But let's see how it works out. When one isn't first priority, it doesn't mean one won't get the item. Others may pass, or already posses it.
But, yeah, it is a bit tight.. :)
I can say one thing as a Marshall the talks of what job everyone will be doing will be longer. No you take ML no you, no you. Think i better make a addon for this otherwise this will just be hell.
r u rly sure this site is good ? i saw items with + healing and mana regen classified good (4 stars) for a lock and we don't rly need mana regen or + healing tho, i also noticed that rings with +% to hit r good (still 4 stars) for healers ... i don't rly think a friendly target will try to resist a heal :P
lol yep OA,
to be fair I think it's a case of squeaky wheel
out of a great many raids with 40 ppl or so in each, there aren't that many complaints with the old system.
this way might be better but if a peice of +to hit kit has low priority for dw fury (me), then whoever wrote the site hasn't investigated classes. It's good, but it has flaws
Edit: lol Asheera posted before me, it's pretty much what I said, might be worth grabbing the base info into a database/s.sheet and modifying it for reality
I bet priests get low prio on dmg and healing kit too
Quote from: Asheera;158842r u rly sure this site is good ? i saw items with + healing and mana regen classified good (4 stars) for a lock and we don't rly need mana regen or + healing tho, i also noticed that rings with +% to hit r good (still 4 stars) for healers ... i don't rly think a friendly target will try to resist a heal :P
And which classes had 5 stars for those items?
4 stars mean could use but others could use better.
5 stats means would get best use from.
Your example is more than a bit dodgy at best. It's a bit like me criticising the list for saying that a healing druid needs Jin'do's Bag of Whammies (I mean why on earth would a healing druid need +dam to spells?) because it gives a healing druid 4 stars for that item. The fact is that the healing druid is given 5 stars for better suited items, like Jin'do's Evil Eye and Jin'do's Hexxer.
The system is not going to be perfect, but don't criticise it before you understand it. Go find the examples of 5 star items you think are wrong and talk about those - they're the important ones. I know they'll be some out there to debate and it will be a sensible debate not a pointless one.
As for the ML role. I do not believe it will take significantly longer to use this system as few classes have dual roles and it therefore affects only a minority of the loot. Other than this it is still a 'highest DKP' system, so no change there.
TL.
So the Heavy Dark Iron Ring is better for a DPS Warrior than the Crown of Destruction? Drake Fang Talisman is better for a Rogue than a DPS Warrior? And thats just 2 examples for my class, there are countless more.
Sorry, but I think I know better what my class needs than this site. So imo, let's stick with highest dkp.
Nope, you're misreading the site. The site is NOT design to rank item to item, it is merely designed to look at a single item and then class to class. Nowhere does it say that the [item]Heavy Dark Iron ring[/item] is better for a DPS warrior than the [item]Crown of Destruction[/item].
So what it says for [item]Heavy Dark Iron ring[/item] is that it is better for a prot spec warrior or a feral druid than a DPS warrior.
For the [item]Crown of Destruction[/item] it clearly says that a Hunter has higher priority on it than you, but as a DPS warrior you would get second priority on it seeing as it is Mail.
Understand it better now?
TL.
Something is in fact very odd about that site, if u look at judgement belt it gives 4stars for loladins and 5stars for healadins. The funny thing about the judgement set is that the bonuses isnt +healing, its +healing and damage, and the last one is a big + for loladins. Might be a mistake though as its the only one i noticed that werent the same for both types.
Quote from: Gallahan;159044Something is in fact very odd about that site, if u look at judgement belt it gives 4stars for loladins and 5stars for healadins. The funny thing about the judgement set is that the bonuses isnt +healing, its +healing and damage, and the last one is a big + for loladins. Might be a mistake though as its the only one i noticed that werent the same for both types.
I'd agree and have emailed the author accordingly.
TL.
Granted TL, on the examples you chose from myanmar's post, however the DFT example still stands, the site says better for rogues than for dps warrs, I'm *pretty* sure it's assuming dps warriors are arms/2h spec, since everyone knows +to hit and AP are top (along with crit) for dw fury, if it's counting the dodge as rogue only then that just supports the idea that dw/fury hasn't been included.
If you wanted suggestions on specific items then so far:
Drake Fang Talisman: 2% hit and AP is Fantastic for dw fury 5*
Maladath: + weapon skill affects %hit %crit and AP (afaik) perfect for dw fury 5*
but anyway it would be nice if some kind of discrimination was made between dw and 2h since atm, dajo and I would have same priority on 2h and 1h weaps, maybe a 1* alteration either side in this case.
Quote from: Umbra;159088Maladath: + weapon skill affects %hit %crit and AP (afaik) perfect for dw fury 5*
This is a bit wrong ;)
+weaponskill does not affect either +hit / +crit or your attackpower
The reason why you need +weaponskill as a furywarrior is only because of glancing blows:
A glancing blow is a damagemigrated hit with that occurs when mobs is evenor higher level then you, so you get a lot of this on trash and bosses in end game instances.
These occur only on white damage and can't crit, +wepskill doesn't give you less chance to get glancing, but when you got weaponskill +10 of your own level, your glancing blows deals 100% of the damage the white hit is supposed to do. You will get a better rage-generation because of more damage, and then the chance to get more DPS :)
For humans, [item]Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight[/item] is perfect because of the +4 weaponskill, this gives them 309 swordskill (5 racial)
I used the twin blades of hakkari myself when I was fury (Setbonus was +6 swordskill) and used to outdamage tier 1 rogues with several thousand damage :)
I would actually recommend using these:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=12420 (//%5Burl)][item]Edgemaster's Handguards[/item][/URL]
Might sound nasty to get rid of a crit and some attackpower if you for example use [item]Flameguard Gauntlets[/item], but in the end +weaponskill makes a BIG difference in your output damage :)
As for the +hit, furywarriors need these for this reason:
Your offhand got +25% miss as standard, and when you'r spamming Heroic Strike with your mainhand, you don't got anything that generates rage when it keeps missing all the time :)
I know it's the wrong thread to put it in, but it gives a little clue of how fury-dps works for ppl that have never tested it :)
why is the [item]Warblade of the Hakkari[/item] 3 stars on a rogue? its one of the fastes main hand swort you can get before you get into bwl.
my be a bit low on dps stats but still think its a great wapon for a rogue
besites. why is [item]cloak of draconic might[/item] 5 stars on a rogue. isnt [item]cloak of the shrouded mists[/item] mutch better for a rogue class (its 5 stars 2) but i think the [item]cloak of draconic might[/item] isnt that good for a rogue..
pff this item linking when your dislectic is a pain in the ass
Cloak of draconic might gives a rogue more AP then mists, and is thus better one can argue. The warblade is arguably better for a warrior/hunter since the dmg spread is on the low end
Not quite Jorgen, though it seems it's mainly to do with glancing blows...
[Copied from http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill] (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill%5D)
Each point of weapon skill you have over your opponent's defense increases your chances to crit and hit by 0.04%, and reduces your opponent's chance to block, parry, and dodge by 0.04%. Effectively you can consider it to be the inverse of the defense skill.
so it increases to hit and crit by a small amount but yes raises dps overall, either way i'd still say 5* for a dw fury not 4*
I'm only adding this info for altruistic reasons since I already have a DFT and Maladath :)
how about this for comment
i just lost a ring to a mage,
i had 4 stars of useablity
he had 5 stars
i had 3600 dkp
he had 400 dkp
i have NINE TIMES the dkp he had but he won it
now that is not entirely fair if you see the efford put in
Edit: and dont come with its dmg and healing, if you look, every judgement item has dmg AND healing to
ok that isn't fair at all.
maybe reshape it a bit too:
Max 1000dkp range, that way its way more fair.
Had to agree on DUK, but then again i've always been for the simple DKP is DKP system. Giving Paladins only 4 stars on that ring is simply ridicolous in my humble opinion
First were is the option for Priests to choose a DPS side?
Apparently the 2 other healing classes in game is allowed.
And now a lot of discussion can start about Hybrid class etc... but the fact is Priests can be Hybrid too, Caster and Healer.
Im just not able to be healing very good when casting, but i guess its the same that counts for Druids and Paladins.
Were Facing Nef right now, and i just realised loot ive been after will be given to someone else due to this fact. why?
They "need" it more according to the prio list
[item]Halo of Transcendence[/item]
[item]Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer[/item]
So... i got the top one... i miss the bottom :( but now ill never see it.
Circlet of Applied force dropped tonight in BWL so I whispered. Luminance, a rogue with 900 dkp less than me whispered for it and received the loot.
Before I say anything else, this is not personal - I do not bear a grudge towards Luminance for winning.
Following these events, the hunters are particularly cross. Some members have been silent, but others are annoyed, and wish to express their frustration about how the new system effectively reduces any chance of priority to ranged weapons only.
Every I think realises that hand weapons are a grey area - axes, daggers etc. come under this, but with the new system, because whoever designed the list sees Hunters as ranged weapon users, they no longer have immediate access to melee weapons.
THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. Hunters have as much right to earn the chance to use a hand weapon, or neck piece, or cloak, or ring as ANY OTHER CLASS, and to exclude them from that will only continue to raise the level of unhappiness.
EDIT:
My suggestions:
If priority is essential, then make experience count, or implement priority for new instances like Naxx. People can understand that...
Umbra's idea for a multiplier makes sense... please consider it.
A hunter strike has been mentioned, and some members are in favour of it. That is how unhappy we are. This thread is an attempt for some form of fast mediation to take place. Please use it as such!
...and as such I have moved it into the loot system feedback thread with other comments. Otherwise w ehave to hunt these threads down all over the forums when we come to review.
TL.
Hmm how can a dps warrior get t1 gauntlets of might over a defence spec one?
OK my thoughts, i like that the FMs are trying to comply to critisism, but the system we have just implemented for a TRIAL is to test how it works, nothing else.
I like the system but naturally it has flaws, im working on a solution to that. A guild managed Loot priority table, just got one problem atm, that damn plugin wont install correctly to the DKP site :(
Quote from: Lucian;159306Circlet of Applied force dropped tonight in BWL so I whispered. Luminance, a rogue with 900 dkp less than me whispered for it and received the loot.
Before I say anything else, this is not personal - I do not bear a grudge towards Luminance for winning.
Following these events, the hunters are particularly cross. Some members have been silent, but others are annoyed, and wish to express their frustration about how the new system effectively reduces any chance of priority to ranged weapons only.
Every I think realises that hand weapons are a grey area - axes, daggers etc. come under this, but with the new system, because whoever designed the list sees Hunters as ranged weapon users, they no longer have immediate access to melee weapons.
THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. Hunters have as much right to earn the chance to use a hand weapon, or neck piece, or cloak, or ring as ANY OTHER CLASS, and to exclude them from that will only continue to raise the level of unhappiness.
EDIT:
My suggestions:
If priority is essential, then make experience count, or implement priority for new instances like Naxx. People can understand that...
Umbra's idea for a multiplier makes sense... please consider it.
A hunter strike has been mentioned, and some members are in favour of it. That is how unhappy we are. This thread is an attempt for some form of fast mediation to take place. Please use it as such!
I said we would just have to see what would happen with the new loot and stuff... and thank God it did not happen to... I have to agree with Lucian, he has been saving DKP to get some nice stuff, just as me and I am sure as lots of other ppl, but did not get it due to the new "priority" rules. Same as Lucian already said, no harm or disregard to Luminance.
This is already the first issue to arise since this loot system has been put in place... first day!!! and I am sure lots more will follow... especially with the CTS in mind.
I am also sure the entire raid saw my congrats to a certain rogue and I was whispered about it. First of all, I will not now and not in the future change my mind about this towards him and if ppl find that offensive, then I would like to point out that the sudden change, YES sudden change, after a /gquit from that same person has instigated this. I now wish I had not whispered to Vargen to invalidate my bid on that dagger if a rogue wanted it, since he got it and decided to /gquit afterwards anyways.
Don't discredit Lucian's post because of this, since he has a valid opinion.
I do wonder, should i do a /gquit, if anything would be changed... I dont think so...
Well as my 2 cents i support my fellow kinsmen in this matter!
the new system has problems like all systems do for a start, iam willing to go for the trial and see... But as for now we are prio 1 on barely a few melee weapons and the first prios are polearms that we have yet to see if they will drop<_<
And for the Rogue case i feel that it was a real bad way to deal with an agression about loot! i felt it was like a kid that didnt get candy in a shop and the way it have sorted out made me feel sad:sad:
I just pray and hope it gets a good solution so we wont have to see ppl leave or getting grudges inside our beloved guild!
Best regards Rata:flirty:
Quote from: ratatosk;159314Well as my 2 cents i support my fellow kinsmen in this matter!
/signed
QuoteOK my thoughts, i like that the FMs are trying to comply to critisism, but the system we have just implemented for a TRIAL is to test how it works, nothing else.
Trial yes, but the loot is still to the "wrong" owner as lucian and me see it now, even if its just to try, the effect of trial are permanent
Well, if it makes some of you feel any better. I myself think the priority system is a load of... ehrm.. well, you get the point. It puts DKP second, which is wrong imo.
With this prio system you basically get a 'food chain'
Melee gear
1. Rogue
2. Warrior, Hunter
3. Druid, Paladin
or
Caster gear
1. Mage, Warlock
2. Priest, Druid, Paladin
Basically the 'group' above you can take anything from you, no matter the DKP differance. Which totally trashes the point of the DKP system in the first place.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;158873And which classes had 5 stars for those items?
4 stars mean could use but others could use better.
5 stats means would get best use from.
Your example is more than a bit dodgy at best. It's a bit like me criticising the list for saying that a healing druid needs Jin'do's Bag of Whammies (I mean why on earth would a healing druid need +dam to spells?) because it gives a healing druid 4 stars for that item. The fact is that the healing druid is given 5 stars for better suited items, like Jin'do's Evil Eye and Jin'do's Hexxer.
The system is not going to be perfect, but don't criticise it before you understand it. Go find the examples of 5 star items you think are wrong and talk about those - they're the important ones. I know they'll be some out there to debate and it will be a sensible debate not a pointless one.
As for the ML role. I do not believe it will take significantly longer to use this system as few classes have dual roles and it therefore affects only a minority of the loot. Other than this it is still a 'highest DKP' system, so no change there.
TL.
well this is not criticizing the system but i mean, i have prio over palas on items with + healing only (even if cloth) or rings with an high ammount of mana regen and i think a pala could have more use of em
Quote from: Lucian;159306THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. Hunters have as much right to earn the chance to use a hand weapon, or neck piece, or cloak, or ring as ANY OTHER CLASS, and to exclude them from that will only continue to raise the level of unhappiness.
Then it would be alright for rogues to roll on any ranged weapon they might like regardless of other hunter's gear?
Quote from: Nefrion;159337Then it would be alright for rogues to roll on any ranged weapon they might like regardless of other hunter's gear?
If it should be fair for all, yes but logical, hmm that is a tricky one
QuoteThen it would be alright for rogues to roll on any ranged weapon they might like regardless of other hunter's gear?
It has already occurred Nef! Both the DB gun and Heartstriker has gone to Rogue/hunter ask Neb about it!<_<
And ofcourse it can happen but thats what we all have to deal with... If u pass something to a fellowguildy he will remember it and others will see that u pass, and next time ppl will pass for u. (atleast thats the way it should be)
We are all in the same ****ing guild we shall FFS help eachother not steal and cheat ur fellow M8:ranting2: We shall work as a team and be happy that ppl get new stuff. And Ofcourse there will be things u want and someone else get it BUT HEY next time u get something and someone else dont!
P.S this aint an AIM for any specific Person its AIMED for the whole Guild
Best regards an :ranting2: Rata
Quote from: ratatosk;159339.............(atleast thats the way it should be).........
Ye exactly.. the way it should be.. Only thing needed for that is that everyone are suppose to make it that way :g:
dont undertstand the system befor you know it, ok lets try this example
Pendant of the fallen dragon.
9 stamina
12 intelect
9 mana per 5 seconds
druid 5 stars
priest 5 stars
mage 4 stars
paladin 4 stars
warlock 4 stars
Why does paladin only have 4 stars on this, while i see on the loot list with the old system the following people have one
Jeebus
Vehanna
ekzete
padding
lunares
3 out of 5 are paladins, 2 are priest, this could mean paladins are really interested in this one ( i for one am ) and mages and warlocks and mages would rather have something with +dmg on it
and the real confusing bit, dont healadins and priest / resto druids do the same in raids so wouldnt that necklace be just as good for them?
Marduk's post is a good example of how to put feedback into this thread. It notes a specific item, deals with it in a specific way. Feedback which says 'I do not like it' is worthless as the post doesn't actually contain any content.
So when you post, please continue to use specific examples, not generic or even worse just rounded comments. One liners are a total waste of time. State the item, state your reasoning and comment on the class priority shown and what you think it should be. We're trying to make the systems we use work and the 'general moan' crap really does not contribute anything positive that actually helps us. :sad:
TL.
Loot prio aint that bad imo...it just needs some tweaking. Ok, so [item]Circle of Applied Force[/item] is good for a hunter too? Add another star to it for the hunters and that flaw has been taken care off. I don't mind cause Lucian has a good point there. If we work out the flaws like this we should have a decent system.
Quote from: Nebuoh;159313I do wonder, should i do a /gquit, if anything would be changed... I dont think so...
Neb, if you quit --> i quit. Raiding aint fun without having my rl friends with me. So plz reconsider any harsh decisions :nevermind: .
Quote from: DarkAngel;159308Hmm how can a dps warrior get t1 gauntlets of might over a defence spec one?
Please name the item and state the case otherwise we're whistling in the wind all on your own.
NOTE:
A system like this been deliberated and debated for many months by Field Marshalls, so please stop trying to allocate it entirely to a specific person or action as it is not down to that Nebuoh, you are simply wrong.
Please keep the comments to feedback on the system being trialled. Off-topic posts might have to be tossed into a corner to fester on their own.
TL.
[item]Boots of the Shadow Flame[/item] has rogue prio over feral druids. I suggest some changes so druids have at least equal prio for this loot.
Edit
Same for [item]Taut Dragonhide Shoulderpads[/item], [item]Taut Dragonhide Belt[/item] and [item]Cloak of Firemaw[/item].
Quote from: Incentos;159353[item]Boots of the Shadow Flame[/item] has rogue prio over feral druids. I suggest some changes so druids have at least equal prio for this loot.
Agree as rogues are better off with items with agility.
First let me come with a general comment
I understand the frustration of all the classes feeling they are missing out on loot, but please try to speak in a nice tone, and please remember that this is a trial system with which the officers are trying to keep people from using /gquit and ranting all day long. Unfortunately i've never seen so much rant after the system is being tried out, but its a test, and no matter what system you use, there will be flaws. Just try to keep things at a professional level, and please try to think of your fellow SOG members, they are your friends and your human beings
If we cant work together as a team in SOG, how should we be able to reach our goals?
Now to the loot part:
Ring of Blacrock:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19397
Mages (DPS) 5 stars
Paladin (healing) 4 stars
Makes no sense really. Paladins have equal amount of usage for this
Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19364
Warriors (DPS) 5 stars
Paladins (DPS) 5 stars
Sorry fellow paladins, but its my firm belief that any paladin should pass this on to a DPS warrior, any day
This was a few examples for now, i'll be back later with some interesting things
Well, since everyone now probably hate me for what i have done. i'll say what i think. And of course, this post doesn't make me hate anoyone or mean to offend anyone.
This loot priority may suck for certain ppl i.e ppl who actually have raded for the past year and so . .and they want to be fully BWL equiped with non other then the best they can get.
If u think of it as a new persons point of view, they would gain nice loot and they would consider to stay.
I can understand the people who have stayed in SoG for 1 year and want this feeling of, no more loot needed in BWL. Like now, ppl would probably only need 1 or 2 loots in BWL and haven't been able to gain this loot, and u would probably reamain something like 90% complete BWL epic.
Like Luminance took the ring from last night and she was say . . .not even epic teir 2 but that improved her dps alot. (more then a hunter) i would say shes almost like 50% complete of her BWL armor.
If this new loot system have not been implemented and Lucian got it. It would been good for Lucain but, would it of been better for the whole raids dmg or is it just for u Lucian to get 100% complete epic since the improvement would of been better on Luminance.
I would say that Luminance gaining this ring would of been a much more benefit to the raid then Lucian.
So why get mad if it benefitted the raid more? that would of made the raid progress even more? no? and anyway .. that would of not been the best Hunter ring as well that hunters can get in BWL.
I would say that this loot priority system would improve over the whole raids progress then just one persons thirst for 100% BWL epic equiped.
Wow-Loot system focus on pure raiding that makes loosing Paladins and Druids 1 star point for lacking of intel on plate or leather gears and same goes for rings etc which decrease 1 star point due to +spell.
I have to agree with Padding there +heal +mana reg 5 star and +spell dmg is also what he needs under holy tree holy shock isnt related with Melee att. but becasue paladins dont use spell dmg in raids they lost 1 star point on rings according to WowLoot.
For the Ashkandi, Ofc warriors will get it before paladins but I cant say same thing for Ashbringer :flirty:
Quote from: ratatosk;159339It has already occurred Nef! Both the DB gun and Heartstriker has gone to Rogue/hunter ask Neb about it!
Yes, this happend, and it among other things is one of the reasons the field marshals decided upon this loot priority system. But last nite was only the first trail, and apperantly the system is not yet working fully as one would want. Therefor its a fair asumption that changes will be made.
Btw, on a more personal note, id like to remember ppl that what ever the fieldmarshals do, half the raid group is having trouble with how its done. This current system allows ppl to see exactly what thier getting if they say they are class or spec A, or B, now while flawed at the moment i think it has the potential to become a good system.
Also, id please like to urge ppl to type constructive feedback only, since that is what helps, and saying this system is all bull, well it might be your opion, but it dont help us, nor yourselfs, cause with those kinds of open statements the FM's cant change anything.
ill admit that me wanting the DHC (the gun rata was referring to) was utterly selfish and i wish i hadnt ever got it! raid need > pvp need. (thats why +dmg gear is higher rated for mage than pally i guess padd)
Aye I think the idea is a good thing in general terms but needs tweaking, I assume that the powers that be are noting specific item info people are posting on and taking a look at them, that's why the thread is here.
One thing I'd like to put out there is that, even if a class has 4* and another has 5*, is it really fair for a new 0dkp person to win over 6+k dkp person jsut cos of one star?
say a hunter stays in RG1 for a year, but we have high turnover of rogues, the hunter will never get an item cos a rogue will always win it even on low dkp, then maybe leave. rinse and repeat
my suggestion is to use the rating system as a modifier, pure and simple, priority = dkp X star rating, or thereabouts, that way, you are more likely to get it if its better for your class, but you cant guzump a long standing hard working raider when you are new. Just a thought.
P.S. Padding, yet another reason for info on warr spec, I'd rather ashkandi went to a pally than to a dw fury warr (me) i'd like it so i would /w for it but certainly wouldnt take it from a pally, 2hwarr>pally>dw warr for ashkandi (why would a dw warr take it? i dont always dw;))
true umbra, but a modifier system is very adminstratively heavy, since the values change a lot. And it would still mean that some items will never go where you want them to go, its a hard and complex issue, but we are working on it
Quote from: ratatosk;159314Well as my 2 cents i support my fellow kinsmen in this matter!
/signed
Some of the weapons and rings/necks that have now Roges on top of list should clearly have Hunters on top. Or hunters and Roges on the same priority rank... and then let dkp decide...
Quote from: Padding;159365Now to the loot part:
Ring of Blacrock:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19397
Mages (DPS) 5 stars
Paladin (healing) 4 stars
Makes no sense really. Paladins have equal amount of usage for this
I agree, in fact I would think Druids/Priests/Paladins all have better usage. But I don't believe a single Mage would go for that ring when there are so much better rings elsewhere.
Well for me it is the [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] I will never see. With the old system I could have taken it long ago, but I've passed it along for more needing classes. For some reason I don't expect it will be passed to me :sideways:
I know some think this is a bad potion and some are happy for it.
But its just a trail and lets see how it works out after the month.
My own opinion is that it was most fair "highes dkp" wins, cause there is a reson why ppl have more dkp than others.
No matter what there will allways be the usual fight:
Rogues vs. Hunters (Feral druids)
Dps Warriors vs. Dps Pallies
Its allways common sense people lack when there is loot.
Yesterday eventho we used the new loot rules us (warriors) talked about who wanted what and if ppl were willing to pass. Some did it and others ignored it.
isay make a chan. fx. RG2loot and then ppl can say if they are going for a certain thing and if others are willing to pass. I know, if people use common sense and use a min or 2 to talk about it there woulden be any problems and dissapoinment.
Some people a ego's when it comes to loot, and think the reason is that they want to improve asap, and thats no shame, we just need to think a bit more about eachother than just ourselves.
QuoteQuote:
Originally Posted by Padding (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=159365#post159365)
Now to the loot part:
Ring of Blacrock:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19397
Mages (DPS) 5 stars
Paladin (healing) 4 stars
Makes no sense really. Paladins have equal amount of usage for this
Kreuz
I agree, in fact I would think Druids/Priests/Paladins all have better usage. But I don't believe a single Mage would go for that ring when there are so much better rings elsewhere.
Kreuz, deloris wanted that ring, i wanted that ring, deloris got it, even tho i had 9 times more dkp then he did at the time, so it can happen, and it probably will happen again
Tbh, I don't see why a Mage would want [item]Ring of Blackrock[/item] unless they had a crap ring to start with. But then I guess not all Mages would sell their mother for some extra spelldamage :flirty: Though I can't think of any ring from BWL that is better atm. MC there is though, and ZG and AQ and Naxx :narnar:
Not everyone has TWO [item]Ring of spell power[/item], Kreuz
And Deloris is a girl! Just so you know. (Lucian please ignore this line of text)
default for all gamers is he :P
its easier to correct 0.1% of the cases then to type out he or she every time :P
of course no hard feelings against deloris of course i would whisper to if it was an improvement, but im still using my mc/ony rings to and i was looking for new ones for a while to :)
Quote from: Vargen;159487And Deloris is a girl! Just so you know. (Lucian please ignore this line of text)
There aremany lines in this thread I'd happily reply to, but I choose this one.
I've never spoken to Deloris. For some reason my charms are faulty when she's around. (And, in truth, I've never even whispered her!)
As for others, Keisuke: that ring was not to make me a full epiced up hunter - I'll still have a blue melee weapon because I've never whispered for daggers I might want to let Rogues have them.
Secondly, and this is what really ****ed me off, you imply I'm greedy. Luminance's DPS increased by 2.5. Dear god, that's TINY. And, imho, another sign of your loot ego getting in the way of the spirit of the game. I have been working for a year now on the ZG rings, recently I got my Brood ring to honored (an upgrade, even over the set bonus for the ZG rings), so that ring, which you seem to think I was taking for the hell of it, was going to be a substantial improvement over my existing gear.
Thirdly, and I'm telling you this now, don't ever whisper me asking to pass on something. I won't, because its you.
Finally, and I've been thinking about this in school today, the system has the potential to work, provided the officers sit down and revise the ratings. Its gonna be a long tough process but its possible.
PS: How the hell do you link items now?
Ok enough already. Put the hand bags away. If you want ot fight then arrange a duel outside IF where we do not have to listen to it - this applies ot EVERYONE.
Public notice:
ANY MORE FLAMING OR PERSONAL BULLSHIT WILL BE DELETED WITHOUT WARNING.
KEEP THIS THREAD ON TRACK. :angry:
TL.
Reply from the wow-loot.com author received. He is clearly open to discussion and assistance, so list the item, state your case and recommended solution. Just the facts please.
TL.
QuoteThanks for the catch TL!
The belt was incorrectly rated and should have been 5 starts for both paladin classes. Blackwing Lair page updated.
Kaliban
QuoteDKP, communist ideology and DPS greed. posted by Badhead
Link to thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=41794221&sid=1
This is a message to the guilds of WoW. We, the support classes, the healers, the tanks, will no longer stand for being treated as second class guild members.
Background
DKP is one of the greatest inventions of any raiding guild, it ensures that members receive rewards, in general, directly proportional to the time they put in, rather than randoming off and having johnny-come-latelys and "shows up to 10% of raids" guys be disproportionaltely and unjustly rewarded.
The system, in general works very well, until a healer or tank wants a DPS piece, and then all hell breaks loose.
When some priests and warlocks wants an item with +shadow damage on it, rather than bid high, warlocks tend to lowball the item. A priest wins the bidoff, a warlock gets upset because even though he only bid 30% of the DKP the priest did, he "really wanted it" and then the officers discuss what is going to happen.
Because the majority of officers and guild leaders themselves play DPS roles, or subscribe to the (quasi-communist) "for the good of the guild" ideology of the DPS class, typically the priest is told they cannot have the item, and it is instead passed on to the warlock. The priest may argue about it, and will likely be abused or otherwise shouted down by officers or the guild master, because they see a potential for drama and rebellion they wish to avoid. If the priest recognises this in advance and keeps a cool head, they may simply bitterly accept it, with plans to get what they feel they deserve later.
This same pattern emerges when a tank wants DPS plate or weapons, a shaman wants a big 2 hander or classically, when a druid wants feral gear.
The quasi-communist DPS ideology
The DPS classes one argument for why they "deserve" priority on such items is "for the good of the guild". The idea being that to progress, you need maximum raid efficiency, and therefore items should be allocated to those who will use them in raids. Some DPS players really do believe this, but for most it is simply a convenient excuse to justify them getting top priority on every single item they want.
Officers, like soviet bureaucrats, tend to be the kind of people who support this idea, they have a heavy psychological investment in the guild and tend to equate its progression with their own success, and imagine those who desire a more personal advancement to be traitorous or selfish.
They believe that efficient allocation can be determined from above, and that stopping the tank from getting an Ashkandi really will enhance rather than retard their progression.
This argument fails for two primary reasons, the first is psychological, the second is economic.
The true effects of DPS greed.
The first problem of DPS greed is economic, inevitably some items will be open to healer, hybrid and tank classes, and others not, and this tends to create bizarre inefficiencies.
For example, a Hunter may prefer weapon A, a Rogue prefer weapon B, and a fury warrior prefer weapon C. If bidding were open, this would most likely be the pattern of weapons they acquired. But if bidding is closed on item A to the hunter, and open on weapon C, the hunter may end up being forced into picking up weapon C, the fury warrior to weapon B, and the rogue to weapon A. Everyone loses, for no particular reason.
The second problem of DPS greed comes in the form of reduced competition for items. Without priests to compete with, DPS casters have little competition for desirous items, so they may decide to only show up to 50% of raids. Consequently, at any given time your raid is at suboptimal strength, some weeks its good, some weeks its bad, and your progression is retarded.
DPS classes, who easily acquire a tonne of phat lewts, then may decide to move on to bigger and better guilds.
The third problem is that healers, tanks and hybrids have a disincentive to come to early raids, for two reasons.
1) Bidding is closed on the items they really want, so they want to wait until they are open.
2) By the time bidding is open, the DKP price will be low, so they have no need to save.
So not only do your DPS stop showing up consistently, your healers and tanks do too.
The fourth problem is that your healers and tanks get ****ed off and leave your guild, or leave the game completely.
Overall, these problems result in guild progression slowing, guilds breaking up, inner drama and an overall sense of anger and frustration, all because DPS classes feel a sense of entitlement to more than they have earned, and officers support them in this
Now why did i post this.
First because i think its true.
Secondly because i think a Priority system that rewards anything but attendence is flawed in its nature, if players fail to see this, it is my belief it is them that are flawed not the system.
But i guess its easier to blame someone or something else. rather than looking upon ya self?
Nice one TL.....
I short, if you see things that are not correct you have the ability to say something about it now..... As this will help out a lot of people (considering not only SoG uses that site!!).
Chapeau
I could point out one obvious flaw in this system.
Let's say I play a rogue. All the other rogues have all the weapons they want, but warriors and hunters don't.
I pick up [item]Dragonfang Blade[/item] from Vael. A hunter wanted it, but I get prio.
Then I pick up [item]Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight[/item] from Broodlord. A fury warrior wanted it, but I got prio.
Firemaw falls and ofc I pick up [item]Claw of the black drake[/item] again on prio over hunters and warriors.
On Chromaggus I pick up [item]Chromatically Tempered Sword[/item] At this point I bet the warriors and hunters would either be pretty furious or allready have done /gquit
Just one example, but it clearly shows one of many flaws. A lot of rogue love in there, but none at all for slightly off specs or hunters.
....but you could do exactly the same with the highest DKP system due to your DKP! I acknowledge yoru point Vargen, but it's a fault with both systems if someone has high DKP and insists on taking the item.
Well, I don't know about the rest of the rogues, but I would not do that, as I only have my eyes on swords. Thus I would not take the dagger nor the fist weapon. Guess we are back to the "plan what you want from your character". The only reason for me using daggers now, is that I was told that daggers were the way to go for MC equipment. I later found that I don't enjoy using daggers as much as I did using swords (which I did from around level 20 to 60).
The difference TL with a dkp system is that even though this is possible, as you use your dkp, it reduces, making it less likely you'll get the next item, with the prio system, it does not.
As Vargen pointed out, a rogue could get *all* dps swords before a warr would, with dkp this would be exceedingly unlikely unless the goue was old and the warr was new, in which case rogue has earned it.
However, since there are people who want items before they have raided as long as others, and in *some* cases this may benefit the raid, it can help, so like I said, After this trial, why not try using the 'rating' as a modifier as follows.
rogue has 3k dkp, tank has 4k dkp, maladath drops, great for rogue, good for tank (5* and 3*? cant remember)
5 x 3k = 15k, 3 x 4k = 12k, so rogue gets it, tank doesn't feel too bad since the rogue wasn't that far off dkp. (not like a new rogue taking a sword from a tank who has a year of raiding under his belt). AND since dkp goes down this reduces the likelihood of getting next item over someone who hasn't spent dkp.
What happens here is that you don't get:
classes taking all of an item type regardless of dkp before everyone else.
new raiders taking items from people who have saved for over a year.
you will get:
people still having to save conscientiously for items they want rather than taking anything they can.
All it means is that if something is better for your class, you are more likely to get it, but you won't just get it because of your class, time and effort and commitment should always be essential.
Quote from: Umbra;159876a rogue could get *all* dps swords before a warr would
I agree, we're all saying dimishing returns on the system. But as Shylock said, "dicks will out" in any system. People is people.
TL.
Hmm i do like this system umbra said,
Your DKP pool times the numbers of stars and the one with the highest rating wins,
altho it would be hard in the beginning on the ML
having to alt-tab check two sites per item and then multiply by the number of people and then do a small calculation
take the CTB
a rogue whispers
a dps warrior whispers
a paladin whispers
a hunter whispers
of those classes there couple be mutiple people whispering
you would have to scroll down to the blade, write down the multiplyers per class and then add the dkp into the sum
if 2 people whisper, the system is great, if 20 people whisper, it will despawn b4 we figured out who what and where
it might be difficult, but how much access do we have to the dkp server?
Someone (i could try) could grab the star ratings into a file/db, and write a simple app that would list the modified ratings on a single page having read (if possible) the dkp from the site. Or whoever did the funky dkp mods could add a filter option for 'rated listing' to list people by this modified method
yeah TL, I know that quote, but I thought I'd try and make a sensible contribution (gotta try once a year at least)
Actually it wouldn't be so difficult. You would just use the compare function and quickly do the maths on the top few. Or even top of each class whispering. That would make it max 3 calculations per item, and since it is mostly weapons and rings/trinkets it shouldn't take too much time since allmost all armor is under the token system with no priority.
have been reading some more on the loot priority list, and a few more items has struck me as being prioritised odd, f.ex. Crown of Destruction has 2* for warriors and 1* for loladins, whereas i dont see what a warrior needs +int for, and even though its nice for those too i still would say it at least should be even odds for those 2 classes. And why are onslaught belt better for warriors than pallies? i dont see why it is, ofc warriors are often dps during raids, but then again thats an offspec aswell as loladin, so dont see any reason for this...
just a few thoughts ;)
Quote from: Vargen;159825I could point out one obvious flaw in this system.
Let's say I play a rogue. All the other rogues have all the weapons they want, but warriors and hunters don't.
I pick up [item]Dragonfang Blade[/item] from Vael. A hunter wanted it, but I get prio.
Then I pick up [item]Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight[/item] from Broodlord. A fury warrior wanted it, but I got prio.
Firemaw falls and ofc I pick up [item]Claw of the black drake[/item] again on prio over hunters and warriors.
On Chromaggus I pick up [item]Chromatically Tempered Sword[/item] At this point I bet the warriors and hunters would either be pretty furious or allready have done /gquit
Just one example, but it clearly shows one of many flaws. A lot of rogue love in there, but none at all for slightly off specs or hunters.
u don't have that problem anymore, since Rogues say wich sort of wapon-rogue they are/will be, last time i checked all rogues accept noevra wanted Sword. So imo they see swords (like me) as 5 stars and the rest lower. That way other classes with 4-5 stars would get either prio or same chances (Dkp)
Quote from: Gallahan;160207have been reading some more on the loot priority list, and a few more items has struck me as being prioritised odd, f.ex. Crown of Destruction has 2* for warriors and 1* for loladins, whereas i dont see what a warrior needs +int for, and even though its nice for those too i still would say it at least should be even odds for those 2 classes. And why are onslaught belt better for warriors than pallies? i dont see why it is, ofc warriors are often dps during raids, but then again thats an offspec aswell as loladin, so dont see any reason for this...
just a few thoughts ;)
When I see a paladin keep up with Dajo, I might consider this post serious.
But I will agree with you that a paladin benefits more from the stats [item]Crown of destruction[/item], a warrior will still do more damage with it.
Where is the option for priests to choose the DPS way of life?
i only found: Priest choice.
But with that choice i dont have priority over any Mage or Warlock.
Surely is must be a mistake.
But then again i didnt find anything, on http://wow-loot.com concerning a Shadow Priest or Holy DPS Priest, very weird seeing as Shadow Priests are very viable during for instance: Instructor Razuvious (for Naxx boss in Deathknight Wing).
Maybe he forgot to update the info there.
at 1st i didnt like the idea of changing the loot system but when i checked out the web site it all makes sence :withstupid:
Quote from: Luthor;160357Where is the option for priests to choose the DPS way of life?
i only found: Priest choice.
But with that choice i dont have priority over any Mage or Warlock.
Surely is must be a mistake.
But then again i didnt find anything, on http://wow-loot.com concerning a Shadow Priest or Holy DPS Priest, very weird seeing as Shadow Priests are very viable during for instance: Instructor Razuvious (for Naxx boss in Deathknight Wing).
Maybe he forgot to update the info there.
Must admit an interesting point from luthor there, out of interest on a normal run does anyone know how much over heal we get?
I mean if our over-healing is that much maybe we could start using the odd priest that wants to go shadow, would mean more dps and less overhealing and maybe a more effective use of a priest...
Duuno what you lot think...
i dont think...:roflmao:
but my point of vieuw is that evry one can play his charcter he she wants. if it whasnt posibole it whasnt itended
Quote from: Marduk;159896Hmm i do like this system umbra said,
Your DKP pool times the numbers of stars and the one with the highest rating wins,
altho it would be hard in the beginning on the ML
having to alt-tab check two sites per item and then multiply by the number of people and then do a small calculation
take the CTB
a rogue whispers
a dps warrior whispers
a paladin whispers
a hunter whispers
of those classes there couple be mutiple people whispering
you would have to scroll down to the blade, write down the multiplyers per class and then add the dkp into the sum
if 2 people whisper, the system is great, if 20 people whisper, it will despawn b4 we figured out who what and where
people should know there own dkp and know the number of stars of the wapon, so maybe letting the persons who whisper do his own math and whisper the item and the "star*dkp number" then the ML only has to compair who has the highest number.
that would work as long as you leave more time for ppl to wisper.
unless its wisper for intrest, then wisper dkp + modifier as soon as you double check the stars on the loot? that way if there are only a couple of ppl wispering then its easy for the ML but then he can ask for help if there are lots of ppl
Stront also take into consideration, that one shadow priest isnt playing because the extra dam he does is more needed, only. but also because he adds something to the raid. fx. +15% shadow damage taken by target (Shadow Weave) and he will heal the party with: Vampiric Embrace.
RG1 does not carry a shadow priest, so to a extent the question is moot. At the moment, although we certain have individuals who might tot up some scary overhealing numbers, as a raid we are still not in the luxurious position of having much of a choice as our tanks are still dying!
TL.
+To hit with spells is needed for tanking Instructor Razuvious. will that be taking into account?
I would guess that a single specialised role for a couple of people within a single boss fight done by a 40 person raid within the general schedule of all of the boss fights across an instances will in all probability not affect a loot priority table for that instance - otherwise arguments for the other classes in the raid start being thrown into the ring as well based on other 'unique' circumstances. +Hit is nice, but it is not something you *have* to have before you can kill him. If +hit is also a concern then you will find some nice trinks & rings in ZG, WSG and AV that will easily provide the +hit you are worried by without nerfing either your stats or your DKP.
TL.
Got an issue worth discussing (imo) concerning meatshield priority on NR items.
Yesterday evening two things kinda ****ed me off.
1. Wiping on Huhuran at 1% (she had less than 8.000 hp on my counter) becoming SoG tradition.
2. Loot hand out of the [item]Unnatural Leather Spaulders[/item] to someone who isn't in the meatshield.
My question is.....why put priority for meatshield people on [item]Nightmare Engulfed Object[/item] and not on the spaulders? I noticed three people rolling on the item that could have seriously increased their NR and damage output if they had gotten the item. I feel like the item got wasted last night. Plz, correct me if i am wrong.
Quote from: Luthor;160732+To hit with spells is needed for tanking Instructor Razuvious. will that be taking into account?
Take angelista's grasp a belt with plus 2% to hit from chrommy. I have 1 due to no one wanting it. thats a nice start. An other thing would be the ZG trinket from the fish boss. plus 10% to hit for a few sec.
The grasp is prioritised but no one wanted it for the last 3 drops. the trinket is not prioritised in ZG. thats a nice start to go with.
Lunares
Quote from: Luthor;160732+To hit with spells is needed for tanking Instructor Razuvious. will that be taking into account?
More likely we will put to use the best geared priest for the job rather then gearing a priest for the job.
As for the loot priority system, as it is now is unacceptable. It prioritizes DPS only and ignores DKP. First of all it will need to exclude initiates and new members from priority. If not be a scaled system like Umbra mentioned. Loosing an item to someone with 8000 DKP less then you is just rediculus. We are in no way out to halt raid progress or take items just for the hell of it. But if I worked through BWL from start to finish, and earn my way through. Should I not get the chance to take a [item]Drake fang talisman[/item] over a rogue with 1 DKP? Sure it is a major upgrade and you as a raid member might not see any value in me getting one. But ask yourself, should we really throw the DKP system out the window for the sake of keeping our rogues, mages and warlocks happy? Because I sure as hell ain't happy with _that_ system.
Yeah, I know. I'm making it all about loot and items again :rolleyes:
Honestly I don't care that much for loot or items. I care more for having fun and playing the game. But I would at least have the option to take an item if I really want it. Not have some idiot say, no you can't have that item because your class isn't supposed to play in a manner requireing those kind of stats in a raid. You are a healbot, sit down and shut up.
And to the "But you listed as a Feral druid"
Yes, I did. and there are something like 2 items that are prioritized to a feral druid on the entire AQ list. Most items I would want is basically "No, you can't have that. You aren't a rogue." It needs to drop 7 more times before you are considered. So you end up getting stuck in a healer role but hey; "No, you can't have that item, you aren't a primary healer". So that means only 7 priests, 7 paladins and 6 druids need to get it before you can. Assuming ofcorse that there are no new people joining in the place of someone that has allready gotten one.
The DKP = DKP system fell because some (read 'pure' classes) found the system to allow for greed. Well guess what, so does everything else. You cannot make a system without some kind of flaw or downside or someone being unhappy with it. Name the system and I will name the flaw...
A pure DKP system is the fairest way of distributing loot. It allows the top person first pick. It's major flaw however is that while the ones that raid an equal ammount are balanced out, newcomers are left behind as they have no way of catching up. We greatly reduced this problem by splitting the DKP system into different instances to balance it out. We have never been about telling people how to play their characters. Personally I feel forced to choose feral as it is my favorite aspect of my character. No doubt I would probably contribute far more in many situations with my healing then just standing around as a kitty or teddy, but then I won't be 'allowed' to experience the aspect of the game I want to, outside the raid.
Anyways, getting some sleep now... Think I repeated myself several times allready...:sleep:
:withstupid:
Hybrid classes (or as I like to call them, unpure classes :naughty: ) will or at least should always choose the DKP = DKP system as it favors them greatly. They can roll for whatever they want and they dont get that easily bored with raiding because they can choose between dps and healing or dps and tanking.
When playing rogue you dont have that much to choose between. Its mostly DPS or being dead.
Another thing is that the priorty list does not care what you do outside raids. It only looks at what benefits the raid so if you are looking for progress and want to advance faster the priority list is the way to go.
Do you think it is fair that hybrid classes - because they have more options in making their character - should be last in line to get their gear upgraded...no matter the amount of effort put into the raidgroup?
That bites if you ask me :sideways:
Just wanna add my support to [post=161298]Vargen's last post[/post]. He made some really good points, and managed to express them way better than I could have done :thumb:
Luthor also had [post=159562]a post some pages back[/post] that I also think made quite a bit of sense. Although it might be to push things a bit to extremes, it had some stuff worth noticing as well!
I dont know if you noticed DK, but I didnt take any side. I just stated that I clearly can see why Vargen would like DKP = DKP. He has got loads of DKP and he is a hybrid class. People tend to get greedy when phat loot drops. The best intentions can be written here on the forums and you just sit and hug yourself but when the loot drops people get that Gollum look in their eyes. My preeeecious!
Just remember if you take [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] from a warrior, hunter or rogue who benefits from it in raids you may result in that Huhuran survives with 8000hp.
Just my two copper.
Quote from: Nefrion;161319I dont know if you noticed DK, but I didnt take any side. I just stated that I clearly can see why Vargen would like DKP = DKP. He has got loads of DKP and he is a hybrid class. People tend to get greedy when phat loot drops. The best intentions can be written here on the forums and you just sit and hug yourself but when the loot drops people get that Gollum look in their eyes. My preeeecious!
Just remember if you take [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] from a warrior, hunter or rogue who benefits from it in raids you may result in that Huhuran survives with 8000hp.
Just my two copper.
Totally agree with nefrion here. I don't mind the talisman going to a feral druid but the dkp system you prefer Vargen also allows it to go to a loladin which makes me :ranting:. Especially when it is in the bank/bag during raids.
Why does people have something against other people getting loot and in that way getting a reward for the work they have done for the guild/raid.
With the DKP system you will get you reward when you made youself deserved to it. With the priority system you can get a item first time you raid in head of a guy who have raid 100 times. For me that's not fair play.
I think if a guy have played alot of times and given his effort to the raid, he deserved a reward for his time and if he find a item usefull for him no matter it's for raiding - pvp - farming he should get it. He should not be punish for playing the wrong class.
Quote from: Greatdanes;161329Why does people have something against other people getting loot and in that way getting a reward for the work they have done for the guild/raid.
With the DKP system you will get you reward when you made youself deserved to it. With the priority system you can get a item first time you raid in head of a guy who have raid 100 times. For me that's not fair play.
I think if a guy have played alot of times and given his effort to the raid, he deserved a reward for his time and if he find a item usefull for him no matter it's for raiding - pvp - farming he should get it. He should not be punish for playing the wrong class.
So if a Paladin takes Ashkandi from a DPS specced Warrior thats fair?
The old system was perfect, just 1 thing have to be changed. When you bid on a item, you write YOUR OWN DKP/item in the raid chat. Everyone do that and everyone can see who wants the item. In that way you can easily pass to another player. Just an example could be Brutality Blade that DonnieKingo got that Jemeny would have liked, Chromatic Tempered Blade and so on. The only thing that makes this hard, is to get people to shut up in raid chat while making loot - but diffinetly doable.
GD, i dont know about you, but i prefer raidprogress. I would like to see the Twins going down. I would like to go to Naxx. If those goals are postponed because of loot hand out to ppl who greed instead of need all the time then that ****es me off.
Why do you think ppl like kain left the guild? Thats not raid progress...thats a needless setback cause it means gearing up another rogue with tier 2 so he can contribute 100% to the 'cause'.
And why do people always think a reward should be in the form of an item? Progress alone should be a reward...the joy of bringing down something that seemed impossible. The fuzz on TS after that kill. The items will follow as you proceed.
Quote from: Mazii;161333So if a Paladin takes Ashkandi from a DPS specced Warrior thats fair?
The old system was perfect, just 1 thing have to be changed. When you bid on a item, you write YOUR OWN DKP/item in the raid chat. Everyone do that and everyone can see who wants the item. In that way you can easily pass to another player. Just an example could be Brutality Blade that DonnieKingo got that Jemeny would have liked, Chromatic Tempered Blade and so on. The only thing that makes this hard, is to get people to shut up in raid chat while making loot - but diffinetly doable.
think this will be a good aternative to the priority sytem, maybe even better, but then again, you could get a higher i don't like you so i wont pass to you factor (this shouldn't be here ofc, but it is and you can't get it away cuz not all 40 people can always like all the other 39 people)
i still think priority with a max dkp diffirence or a dkp*star system would work better.
Imho, Vargen made a very good point. People do have lots of DKP because they put in a lot of time to get there, which allows for new players to experience these instances/bosses. People should be able to be rewarded because of that effort and not have to lose an item to someone else SIMPLY because it has been prioritised that way. I am sure that nobody here would like to lose out on an item, for which they have saved and passed on in the past, to a new guildie simply cause he/she has a class priority on it.
On the other hand, people must also still be wary of the fact that some items CAN indeed be of better use to some other class. But in this case, as has been stated in a lot of previous posts by other people, it CAN ALSO sometimes be that a certain player (class) will have a LARGER upgrade/improvement from an item than a player (class) that would normally be suited best for that particular item. In this case I think the raid will benefit far more from it.
In any case, still a hard nut to crack
If you practice the DKP = DKP and no priority you could be cynical and say that it is not the new people in the raid group that is stopping progress but the greed of the one with much DKP.
I dont say that the one with the most DKP is not entitled to loot but you need to make a choice. Do you act on what benefits the raid or on what you really want because it makes life outside raids some what easier for you. What comes first? You or the team?
If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?
Quote from: Nefrion;161358If you practice the DKP = DKP and no priority you could be cynical and say that it is not the new people in the raid group that is stopping progress but the greed of the one with much DKP.
I dont say that the one with the most DKP is not entitled to loot but you need to make a choice. Do you act on what benefits the raid or on what you really want because it makes life outside raids some what easier for you. What comes first? You or the team?
Since we've moved to the cynical side, here's another example for you:
If you want to enshure that you gain the most benefit from each item that drops, why even use DKP? One could just look at the gear folks have, and the ones with the least amount of epic items get the drop. Shurely that will in theory gain the raid the most, since that person will get the biggest upgrade from it.
Now tell me how good a solution this sounds like :sideways:
Quote from: Greatdanes;161362If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?
Not in the same way. Lets use my last example that a Paladin got Ashkandi instead of a Warrior. The Paladin was just as good of with Halberd of Smiting or any other lower DPS weapon for farming mats for different stuff. It just takes a little longer time to farm, but you have to live with that.
Items benefiting the raid in instances is much more important then items benefiting single persons just to farm.
if the paladin has raided 100 times and the dps warrior is new, then yes its fair that the pally gets it if he wants it tbh (again i say what kind of dps warrior but ignore that for now).
the main problem is balancing rewards for time/dedication spent against overall improvement of the raid. in other words, 'gear up the new guy' compared to 'reward the veteran for spending days of his life and effort and blood and maybe lost RL friends etc in order to keep raiding and help the group progress'. they BOTH have advantages.
a) new geared guy gets lots of loot fast, get that person up to speed with everyone else, good for the raid (as long as they don't then run off to another guild, remember, if people have to spend months raiding to get items they are more likely to have gained some feel for the society and cameraderie in sog, and feel they have some investment)
b) The people who have raided for a year or so, have given up (i'm sorry guys) a hell of alot more sanity and life and time than a great deal of the relatively new guys who are pi$$ed about not getting loot on their 20th bwl run. Some of these HAVE passed items they'd love to others so far, but should they have to pass it to EVERYONE of another class?
Sure, improve the gear of the new ish guys, but if you make it so easy they won't have truly earned it and won't really care about leaving sog for another guild.
Reward the veterans who've spent time wiping/leading/stressing, but don't gimp the rest of the raid. If a pally raided for a year or more and a 2h arms warr was new, the pally taking ashkandi isn't greed, he's surely earned the right to have and use an item he's been after for many many months. Otherwise you might just lose someone who is greatly experienced and has great gear.
Basically, improve overall raid specs but don't penalise the people who have put in the most time and effort. there may be a smaller overall upgrade but as long as it IS an upgrade, don't worry about it. If we were all gonna work on pure stats we'd be robots, that's not fun.
Alot of people previously seem to go for one method or the other, without assuming there might be compromise.
Quote from: Greatdanes;161362If you got a item who helps you farming mats or gold to make you self some pots / enchanting who will make you better in raid, is that not benefit for the raid group?
How much faster do you think you are gonna farm because you get Asscandy instead of The Untamed Blade or whatever?
Im just sick and tired of people saying that loot is not important- the progress of the raid is. And then the same people in another thread wants DKP = DKP because they then can get loot that they want which does not benefit the raid at all but makes their life outside raids a little easier.
Im not saying which system is better and frankly I dont care. Eventually the loot will come.
Well you might consider me greedy for wanting my feral trinket. I have allready passed on it for others with lower DKP, and I probably would again. But now I don't get the chance to even. And this discussion isn't about improving raid progress, this is about how rogues can get EVERYTHING all at once. I really think that a rogue going from blue gear to a full bloodfang set would improve his performance much more then getting the one trinket I want. We are talking about one of the best trinkets around here, and the other mentioned items are also the best around. But keep in mind, just because a system allows for someone to take an item, doesn't mean they HAVE to take it.
You say I am greedy for wanting the option to take loot if I want it. Isn't it pretty greedy to deny druids, hunters and paladins loot alltogether? Don't pretend you can't see that the rogue class comes out as the winner in every situation on this system.
Yes rogues come out on top on the priority list. No doubt about that.
We can both agree that 8000hp on Huhuran is marginals right? Well maybe that trinket is just what it takes to buff the dps that small amount?
But why is it that you simply WANT to have the best trinket? Why not the 2nd best? You are not using it for raids.
Maybe im just ignorant and fail to see the point.
Please point out the 'second best' trinket then.
As for rogues coming out on top. You can, as a rogue, take every dps item that drops in the entire instance. Be at -10 000 DKP, and still take that trinket ahead of my 'unworthy' 4855 DKP. I spent most of my DKP getting the best possible healing kit I could get, but my character has another aspect as well.
Now tell me; If you in that one run whent from a complete tier 1 to a complete tier 2 set, maybe got a [item]circle of applied force[/item] and at nefarian a [item]Prestor's Talisman of Connivery[/item]. Would it be a life or death, zomgIneedthisoryouareallgonnadie kind of situation if you didn't get the [item]drake fang talisman[/item] as well?
This is just an example ofcorse. But given a situation like mentioned here. You do not want to be a rogue living in my naborhood.
First of all. Im not defending any rogues or anyone for that matter. And well your example is a little extreme... Probably sound better that way :)
We are talking past each other here. You are talking about you outside the raid and im talking about the RG.
And since you know it is the best in the game then you should know what is 2nd best... right?
I think the new loot system is a waste of time :thumbsdown:
Lootmaster must now look at other list to make sure that the "right rouge" is getting his item before anybody else. And I really thinks that this is what is all about, some Rouges thinks that they alone can save the raid for a wipe or make the day. But sry you are just another brick in the wall.
I know this sounds hard to some1, but I have newer heard a mage/lock/priest or any other class than Rouge bitching about that they did't get the loot before some1 else.
So to in short therms
I 'm a simpel man and a big fan of KISS (Keep it simpel Stupid)
The one with most dkp, can choose to take the loot just like in the old days:)
Quote from: jianlock;161405I think the new loot system is a waste of time :thumbsdown:
Lootmaster must now look at other list to make sure that the "right rouge" is getting his item before anybody else. And I really thinks that this is what is all about, some Rouges thinks that they alone can save the raid for a wipe or make the day. But sry you are just another brick in the wall.
I know this sounds hard to some1, but I have newer heard a mage/lock/priest or any other class than Rouge bitching about that they did't get the loot before some1 else.
So to in short therms
I 'm a simpel man and a big fan of KISS (Keep it simpel Stupid)
The one with most dkp, can choose to take the loot just like in the old days:)
What happened to Spi then?
A idea i had is making a channel at the beginning of the raid /sogrg2loot etc and you post in that chat when you want the item. This will allow all to know who is going for what. Then we post back who is 1st/2nd etc, this allowing dispute to other raid members instead of the general crap the master loot has to put up with. Its simple and effective.
Quote from: DarkAngel;161410A idea i had is making a channel at the beginning of the raid /sogrg2loot etc and you post in that chat when you want the item. This will allow all to know who is going for what. Then we post back who is 1st/2nd etc, this allowing dispute to other raid members instead of the general crap the master loot has to put up with. Its simple and effective.
It's about the same as I wrote some posts back. You can just check your own DKP each time we kill a boss and when a certain item drop you want, you can post your DKP in raid chat/another channel.
Example:
[Raid] [Mazii]: [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item] Post DKP
[Raid] [Vargen]: 1 millionish DKP
[Raid] [Nefrion]: zomg....1dkp
[Raid] [Vargen]: Pass to Nefrion
[Raid] [Mazii]: 3
[Raid] [Mazii]: 2
[Raid] [Mazii]: 1
[Raid] [Mazii]: Checking DKP
[Raid] [Mazii]: Nefrion wins
Quote from: Incentos;161324Totally agree with nefrion here. I don't mind the talisman going to a feral druid but the dkp system you prefer Vargen also allows it to go to a loladin which makes me :ranting:. Especially when it is in the bank/bag during raids.
First of all I am not gonna make this looks like class rant but i really dont care how much u **** or care bcs as i am %50 holy %50 ret i can use my dkp whatever i want if i need it for my personal solo issues (Farm, PvP etc) as GD mentioned before. If we r talking for
[Drake Fang Talisman] (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=19406) i already passed trinket 4 times and took 4 months to get it for myself as an example vargen still waiting trinket to drop nowadays which is abit not fair for hybrid classes. So what shall we do? only getting our Tiers from instances and then wait all classes to get items which we want that means like waiting 10-15 ppl minimum! not even gonna mention the duration! We already seperated DKP for every instance which will be very effective for the new players soon but it wont even help bcs of bull...ing after all raids about loots which should END :ranting2:
Quote from: Nefrion;161406What happened to Spi then?
AFAIK SPI left the raid because he got LIFO'ed - which he was warned about in the raidchat, and since he got in last, he was kicked.
For some reason he found it to be reason enough to /gquit - but AFAIK it didnt have anything to do with him not getting the gear he wanted....atleast it wasnt the last drop i think.
Well I feel I have proven my point... It IS about the loot :D
Quote from: Nefrion;161406What happened to Spi then?
Don't even get me started :rolleyes:
If we really should do what is best for the raid - then we should use a combination of priority and monitoring of each player - which is kinda impossible. But what i mean is that if we really want whats in the best intrest of the raid - we should look at which DPS-persons of the raid does the least amount of damage - and any new items should go to them.
The DPS'ers way down on the "damagemeters" has far mor potential of dps-growth than anyone thats allready on top of the dps-list.
I know its not as easy as that, since some people might just put their char on auto-attack and sit back and wait for the upgrades, and not everyone is equally specced for damage. Another "flaw" in this is that it rewards the new players - and the old players (and prob. the best equipped) will be left behind.
BUT that aside - i think it is the best way for boosting the damage in the raid - but it is hardly doable/acceptable.
Quote from: DonnieKingo;161506If we really should do what is best for the raid - then we should use a combination of priority and monitoring of each player - which is kinda impossible. But what i mean is that if we really want whats in the best intrest of the raid - we should look at which DPS-persons of the raid does the least amount of damage - and any new items should go to them.
The DPS'ers way down on the "damagemeters" has far mor potential of dps-growth than anyone thats allready on top of the dps-list.
I know its not as easy as that, since some people might just put their char on auto-attack and sit back and wait for the upgrades, and not everyone is equally specced for damage. Another "flaw" in this is that it rewards the new players - and the old players (and prob. the best equipped) will be left behind.
BUT that aside - i think it is the best way for boosting the damage in the raid - but it is hardly doable/acceptable.
It is doable but probably not acceptable! :norty:
I think the idea that Mazii and Darkangel presents here is quite good. This way, we can stick to the old "who got the most DKP" and it makes it a lot easier for people to pass to others if they would like to, cause they can see who would like it.
Quote from: DonnieKingo;161506The DPS'ers way down on the "damagemeters" has far mor potential of dps-growth than anyone thats allready on top of the dps-list.
Sorry to disappoint you DK, but that logic of yours won't hold at all.
Now I don't know about the dps-list, but from my own exlperience in the healing-list, your position on that list doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with what gear you have.
And also, that'll just open up for people thinking "Hey, I need some new gear today, so I think I'll just take it easy and slack a bit through the raid" :rolleyes:
Quote from: Bob;161533Sorry to disappoint you DK, but that logic of yours won't hold at all.
Now I don't know about the dps-list, but from my own exlperience in the healing-list, your position on that list doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with what gear you have.
And also, that'll just open up for people thinking "Hey, I need some new gear today, so I think I'll just take it easy and slack a bit through the raid" :rolleyes:
Thats why i said that it wasnt easy as "some people might just put their char on auto-attack and sit back and wait for the upgrades" and that not everyone is equally specced - therefor not doing comparable damage :D
Quote from: Bob;161533And also, that'll just open up for people thinking "Hey, I need some new gear today, so I think I'll just take it easy and slack a bit through the raid" :rolleyes:
No loot for me ever then :( xD
Quote from: Sinap;161666No loot for me ever then :( xD
ROFL :roflmao:
Even doing nothing he is on top of the damage meters!!! :roflmao:
Then the rest of the raid is wairing grey items?
Next question is, when are these lootrules removed again, afterall they were on trial. i dont think they made it
It's on the last trial week. Personally I think it failed misserably. Maybe I would have liked it if I were a rogue...
pff.. another week... I do would like to know what the next loot system will be... dkp * priority scaling? or are we going back to the old system... or are we gonna wait who will do /gquit to determine the next system... (and no I won't take back anything I have mentioned about this in the past about anybody or any system)
well, my oppinion is.. we dont need all this. the old system is good enough..
the only thing that ppl should solve is the "infighting" over items crap, fex. rg1 warriors dont have this "infighting problem", and afaik we never had problems with eachother..
so imho its not the system thats problematic.. its the ppl
this is just lack of co-operation with eachother..
if you want something real bad, save dkp.
talk about it in your class channel, and if youre that desperate.. request a favour, it might be denied.. but hey, if he/she has more dkp then you, it means that he/she worked harder than you
i might get bashed.. but i dont care.. its the truth, suck it up and face it
^^agree with Gorion.
DKP=KING imho ;)
Quote from: Gorion;162382well, my oppinion is.. we dont need all this. the old system is good enough..
the only thing that ppl should solve is the "infighting" over items crap, fex. rg1 warriors dont have this "infighting problem", and afaik we never had problems with eachother..
so imho its not the system thats problematic.. its the ppl
this is just lack of co-operation with eachother..
if you want something real bad, save dkp.
talk about it in your class channel, and if youre that desperate.. request a favour, it might be denied.. but hey, if he/she has more dkp then you, it means that he/she worked harder than you
i might get bashed.. but i dont care.. its the truth, suck it up and face it
Agree!! :rockon:
Gorion u are right!
But the problem aint inbetween ur own class! like warriors Hunters dont have any problem we always talk about loot! one exception though Ashjen and the Xbow, but according to himself it was just the final drop that made his cup spill!
The problem are still between classes who benefits most from an item???
But i agree let DKP Rule and deal with it! and hope that ppl use common sence!
Best regards Rata
Quote from: Vargen;162379It's on the last trial week. Personally I think it failed misserably. Maybe I would have liked it if I were a rogue...
Can we plz stop the rogue hate thingy....its getting annoying.
I don't think he meant it in that way mate, just simply this trial system benefits dps classes more than others.
:huggy: Incentos i dont hate U!
Well, with the response on this thread, I've got a much better picture of what trouble the commanders and officers have had with this before. Whatever is best for you guys is all I have to say. Perhaps leave this thread here as a "warning" for future demands of change in loot systems.
Quote from: Incentos;162461Can we plz stop the rogue hate thingy....its getting annoying.
Its not hate.. if you see whatever drops with agi, str, crit aso.
It all goes to a rogue.
Druids, hunters, warriors, pallys are back in line..!
then comes the discussion who does it benefit more!?
I say highest dkp is the best way...!
Either is it a Druid, pally, hunter or warrior, depends on DKP and rest can suck on a thumb untill its drops again!
There is a reason why ppl have much dkp.. they have been there all the way..
Yeah some got 10k dkp and others got -200 dkp thats just bad luck... Raid, raid and raid and then get your item.
Highest dkp + Common sense is the best lootrule ever!
Allways remember to think outside the box.
You know my opinion classes could easily sort it out and pass if needed it should all be done on DKP. Makes master looters job easier.
<<< Cuddles up against Incentos :)