Todays raid to naxx got scrubbed due to lack of attendance, now i seen a trend lately that when ever there is AQ on the agenda that attendance is dodge, or just plain bad, leading to canceld raids, or less then ideal group setups. And since BWL/MC was clear, i think ppl figured we would go to AQ and thus didnt bother to show up at all.
If the lot of you dont to do AQ, or raid, then for petes sake let us know so we can work out something.
Sucks really, we need more dedicated people :(
A personal view and a general comment about where we are heading and the people we want to have with us in RG1 in the future. This is not a comment about tonight specifically, it's a general comment borne out of the distress that RG1's raid was called due to only 28 people being in the raid at 19:30. Everyone needs to think about it.
If you don't want to do AQ40 then you don't want to do the Twins
If you don't want to do the Twins then you don't want to do C'Thun.
If you don't want to do the Twins or C'Thun then you don't want to do the groundwork needed to do Naxxramas.
If you don't want to do the groundwork necessary then you will not learn how to participate fully in the high degree of teamwork required to kill Naxxramas bosses.
If you don't want to be part of the team then give up your RG1 place to someone who values it and does want to be part of the team.
We just set an Aszune server record for clearing Molten Core, so we know we are good.
The average RG1 member is better geared than the average Righteous & Friends Raid Group 1 member.
We can do what they do.
But only when we have consistency in attendance and 40 people in the raid.
Long Live SOG!
TL.
just on a personal note i couldnt get online, have only just got to point where it didnt throw me off and go to disco screen and thats after 2 hours of trying, umbra says he had something similar, perhaps that was a factor tonight?
but in general yea big problems on wipe nights
Like I have posted over the past couple weeks tonight should be my last missed raid this year as Im working mon-fri 0700 - 1600 until xmas and after that the only raids I will miss is when I am covering other peoples holidays (like I am just now).
Rest assured I don't mind wiping, and in fact have given up pvp more or less during the days to grind gold to help the guild as much as I can. Wether it be respeccing or maxxing damage all my gold goes on helping you guys. To highlight the point i recently spent 300g to add 15 + damage and 1% crit this is not to benefit me as such but for me to utilise everything i have for you guys.
Like I said I have no problem trashing my gear night in night out, but when I can't raid then at least I give you plenty of notice of it.
RG1 isn't RG1 for nothing, wiping is part of getting progress, so i fully agree with TL if you don't wanna wipe then leave RG1! (or RG2 ofc)
Earlier i wanted to do both AQ40 and Naxx in the same weeks, now i've changed my opinion
In my opinion ALL focus should be set on AQ40 bringing that instance down AT ALL COSTS
We still need a lot of stuff from BWL, so that should be forgotten either, but we should go back to having BWL/AQ/AQ scheme, and we should use all time possible for that. Having the absolute most time at the Twins should be #1 priority. Only when we've beaten AQ40 fully and more than once, can we think about Naxxramas
Im feelin' kinda offended by all this "down twins" talk. TL, my lawyer will talk to you.
oh and to add something on topic: Wipe,kill,loot,wipe,loot,kill Rejoice for good teamwork. Rinse repeat. :D
Flashback...same problem we had on the Nefarian tries
QuoteFlashback...same problem we had on the Nefarian tries
Not quite.... in AQ40 we are typically lacking a lot of people week after week... we called 2-3 full clear nights of working on the twins, because of not enough people
AQ40 is very gear and class dependant, so we need a surplus of a lot of classes otherwise its just not possible
I will just once again point out the concept behind the Guardian rank. Having 40 ppl with near 100% attendance over 3 raid days a week.
In RG1 there is barely room for 1 person per class to be abcent. This is purposly, because we don't want to leave anyone out. We also want a tight team that stick together and work for progress, and not have to gear up and 'teach' more ppl then nessesary and have ppl left feel left out.
We aim to get the most out of the three raid nights we have. Right now, it is two effective raid nights, if that. It should be three FULL nights!
Are you a Guardian? Or just pretending to be one...
Back for sundays raid hopefully, so make it 29 soon =P
Lets look a bit about how many people we actually have available for raiding each week.
Its required that you raid approximately 80% of the time or lets say 5/6 in 2 weeks as it says in the Guardian approach
Here is the current status of guardians in the guild:
GUARDIAN:
We have the following openings in the Guardian (Raid Group 1) (http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13930) ranks:
Druid: FULL
Hunter: 1 Hunter
Mage: FULL
Paladin: FULL
Priest: 1 Spots, Dwarf preferred
Rogue: 1 Spot
Warrior: FULL
Warlock: FULL
So we are lacking 3 people as guardians which would set us down to the MAX of 56-3=53 people to get 40 people from.
If we had 7 of each class as guardians we would have 7x8=56 people as guardians, but i know for a fact that not all classes are 7 since the attendance is very high.
I dont know how many people that is, but lets just say 3, its definately in that area
The math then puts us down to 50 people all in all from which you need 40 people from every week. Now apply the 80% raiding rule, which is all you are required to raid as Guardians and you get a average raiding of people in each raid which is exactly 40
Im bringing this up, because i think we are lacking people to choose from when we want the 40 people to raid week and week over again
I for one would rather have to skip a raid 1 day due to too many people, than sit back and wait for the attendance to go up
In my opinion, nothing must stop the raid from going forward, so if it means i must sacrifice myself for the raid, thats not a problem for me
The only reason it actually runs round now, is because a lot of people have 100% attedance. What happens the day when 1-2 of these people cant attend for some reason? Then the raid stop, and that must not happen
The other option except recruiting to the full potential i see, is keeping all guardians to their word and demoting people that doesnt meet the criteria
This problem will not solve itself, so i hope all people will consider their own engagement and maybe think about some solutions that we can use, so we make sure that the raid keeps moving on
Quote from: Padding;160356The other option except recruiting to the full potential i see, is keeping all guardians to their word and demoting people that doesnt meet the criteria
I fully agree on that for both RG groups. As it is stated in the application. It's like "Let me in let me in"...."Ahhh I'm in...." and then some attendance will drop. Ofc it can happen from time to time (maybe it is such time now) but where do you draw the line?
Difficult one.
I have explained my problems with attendance over the coming weeks and the officers are aware of it.
After that I hope for the required attendance... Please note now that SB has left, we're highly dependent on two newish hunters who aren't terribly well equipped. I'm still lacking 3 DS, and they lack the vast majority of it!
As of now is there no consequences bound together with not attending what you commited to? As soon as the attendance drops below what is agreed you get a reminder and if nothing happens within the following two weeks or month you get demoted. Could that be a solution or would it just make the situation worse?
As i wrote earlyer i will fill up the spot if needed till replacement is there.
Nefrion, the system should already be like that. so if you havent been notified. you prolly know why :)
QuoteAs of now is there no consequences bound together with not attending what you commited to? As soon as the attendance drops below what is agreed you get a reminder and if nothing happens within the following two weeks or month you get demoted. Could that be a solution or would it just make the situation worse?
No its not that strict... then some people would already need a demotion, and frankly attendance is really hard to monitor for the officers. It takes like a LOT of management to look at and if they had to be strict about it, then some people in the guild couldnt live up to the guardian status
Thats why i think over recruiting is better than constantly demoting
THE RAID MUST GO ON
Quote from: Padding;160394No its not that strict... then some people would already need a demotion, and frankly attendance is really hard to monitor for the officers. It takes like a LOT of management to look at and if they had to be strict about it, then some people in the guild couldnt live up to the guardian status
Thats why i think over recruiting is better than constantly demoting
THE RAID MUST GO ON
doesnt the dkp site give a indication as to recent attendance?
Quotedoesnt the dkp site give a indication as to recent attendance?
Its a full time job to keep eye on peoples attendance really... what if someone was ready to raid but didnt get into the raid due to class balance
The most optimal would be to have the same 40 people raiding all the same, but thats not likely to happen, so the ultimate question is:
How do you get 40+ people to raid 3 times a week, without getting people angry because the raid is called, and without people getting angry because they sometimes have to skip 1 raid night because we need extra people to get the 40+ each raid day
If someone knows the formula to that, please tell the officers. Its one of the biggest challenges for them
well given the only time we have class extras is BWL night doesnt seem a problem, and has bin case for past month at least so does give a rather good indication, only few times we have had extras in aq40 they have entered the raid at some point to replace others so still gives a indication there too
oh and ur formula is simple, stricter rules, ppl either come or get thrown out, will slow down in short term due to ppl having to be removed but in longer term makes majority turn up
i don't think you need an other formula, you need more devoted players.
If we needed a formula then bwl would face the same atendance problems as AQ or naxx.
Quotei don't think you need an other formula, you need more devoted players.
If we needed a formula then bwl would face the same atendance problems as AQ or naxx.
Well, its apparant there exists a problem, and most of the players in RG1 have been there 1year or more, so unless you wanna demote them, thats not gonna change.
If you look at my big post, it seems that if you calculate the numbers of players with the 5/6 attendance required, then we have too few players all in all. I think its a major luxury that we dont have to kick someone from the raid each week, and its a luxury we cannot afford if we want to progress in AQ40 / Naxxramas. Officers need a large base of players to choose from, not starting out with 35 and then getting to 40 during the evening. Optimally they need more than 40 for every raid, so they can configure the best baseline of players for that specific raid day
Again i say: some players will have to skip certain raid days, and that sux. But if you want to progress you need to keep pounding that same instance, and those same bosses week after week, with the right amount of people and the right raid configuration
If it's that much work I would suggest to hand it over to the Marshalls. Why do everything alone? Even class leaders can calculate attendance so that would take of pretty much steam.....
Or make a new role...attendance master!!!! :D
just my two copper....
That could be an option. good idea really.
I agree with Deadalus.
Your idea Padding with recruiting new people might work but then you just signal that it is okay to drop below 80% attendance and then you get into a viscious circle where you need to recruit more people and attendance drops.
I know my attendance have been BAD Lately and iam sry for it! :sad: But i have alot of trouble on the homefront both Dragon and Work! on top of that i need to find out if i shall pick up Floorball and so on! My attendance will pick up again shortly i hope u bare with that! and for AQ versus Naxx versus BWL! I must say AQ FTW and i really enjoy that instance so lets clear it before Naxx! And BWL i got no loot that i must have left in BWL so my spot there can be taken for those needed!
So my reason for not being there are NOT that i dont wanna Join the wiping until we get them down! That way makes it more fun !
Recording attendance statistics is not the issue, that's a simple process. The difficulty is assessing when to act on the analysis of the data - and that's a job that is (a) subjective (someone will always think you are wrong and they are right) and (b) something that the Field Marshalls cannot hand over to anyone else.
TL.
Quote from: ratatosk;160626And BWL i got no loot that i must have left in BWL so my spot there can be taken for those needed!
Our difficulty is not trouble getting people into the raid for the right loot. Whether or not someone has all the loot they need from BWL we should all still attend. Better to have a surplus than be a few under and call the raid.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;160628Recording attendance statistics is not the issue, that's a simple process. The difficulty is assessing when to act on the analysis of the data - and that's a job that is (a) subjective (someone will always think you are wrong and they are right) and (b) something that the Field Marshalls cannot hand over to anyone else.
TL.
ppl aint showing up on wipe nights, if its a recuring theme on these nights and good reasons aint being given isnt that when to act?
Yes if you're a ruthless bar steward who wants to have only 27 people for the next raid as you kicked the rest! :norty:
TL.
your forgettin that we are gettin 27 ppl for the next raid already... kick a few n rest fall into line or just get a small backward step to regear new ppl that actually will show up
harsh but i agree
Yes as I thought about it as well. Sure you can have two opinios but the stats don't lie about it. Sure you can be told that there were serveral reasons, but not showing up constantly without saying it ahead isn't much of an answer to me.
The theory is easy to agree with. However RG1 cleared through Huhuran last night (albeit with a couple of messy kills on Skeram & Sartura and a wipe on Huhuran), so I guess we'll see on Sunday what level of commitment is there.
TL.
One of the problems might be that ppl don't get any creds for actually beeing there and wipe to learn the encounter properly.
For example:
A full wipenight is 10 DKP, 2 for showing and 8 for 4 hours.
Yesterday was a total of 111 DKP for doing bosses that now is more or less on farmstatus.
Lets then say Person A is really hungering for the 2-h that drops from the twins and is attending at 5 wipenights and for example 2 other nights because of some issues that makes him unavailable for playing at the farm-nights.
This gives Person A a total of 270dkp
Now we got person B that can't be bothered with wipenights:
He's attending 5 farmraids and doesn't show for the wipenights, this gives him a total of 550dkp and probably a bigger chance of getting the 2-h when he knows that the raid have gotten em down to for example 20% and is capable to get em down the next raid.
But let's say that you for example gain 60 dkp extra on wipenights, Person A would have a total of 570 dkp and a bigger chance of actually getting the items he has been spending loads of repair/pot-golds on instead of the slacker that just bumps after the raid on the farmnights.
This is probably a suggestion that has been up before though :)
And yeah I'm at work, tired as a rabbit on a honeymoon but you get my point :narnar:
Quote from: Jorgen;160788This is probably a suggestion that has been up before though :)
Yes it is indeed, this is something we have debated maaany times before - if you browse a bit in some old posts, I'm shure you'll find quite much about it :)
To be honest, I really don't DKP is
the most important issue here. One of the things that in my opinion could help with the progression, is that we don't run the specific instances on fixed days, but rotate them around a bit (aka. random raids), like we did yesterday when we started clearing AQ40 instead of BWL. This has two major advantages:
Firstly, you make it a bit harder for those (which I actually believe isn't that many, if anyone at all - I might be a bit credulous here, but that's just what I think) that don't like the whipe nights. They will most likely show up on Thursdays, cause they definetly don't want to miss the chance for a whole BWL clearance with lots of DKP and nice drops, which than leads to a full raid so that we can start clearing AQ40 instead. In general I think it's better to start clearing AQ40 on Thursdays, cause than we end up with two alternative days for the Twins, instead of just one if we do BWL instead.
Secondly, this way of doing it makes it a bit easier for those that have problems attending one specific day of the week (this includes me atm, since my RL situation has changed a bit, making it hard for me to make the Tuesday raids (something which I am in a dialog with the Officers about)). It makes the raid group a bit more adaptable if we don't depend of doing an instance on one specific, and that day only. And as yesterday's raid showed, this is something we're doing now - and that's a good thing if you ask me :)
And it's exactly that random nature of raid destinations people complain about, but it is one fo the few tools we have available to combat those with 'selective attendance'. It would be far simpler if people just showed up all the time.
TL.
Just to assuage any fears pertaining to me: on Tues night I couldn't log on at all for several hours, it was only at 19:25 I think that the conenction seemed to stabilise, I think ntl were having huge difficulties, since I could not get past conencting often. If I got to the char screen then it would fail atthe loading screen, If by some chance it loaded I had lag of upto 16k ms then a disconnect. Of course I had asked on that evening to get a quest drop with rg2 from ony, and after all the kerfuffle I was ready for RG1 at about 19:50, typically this is about or before first boss pull. So I hope my lack of appearance earlier did not contribute to the calling of the raid.
It is possible that now and then there are alot of coincidental isp problems/work problems etc that happen to occur at the same time, but as peopel say, missing the 'learning' nights 3 weeks in a row isn't good.
Maybe it will vouch for my dedication that my suggestion as (as has been said before) not to go to BWL until we get consistent attendance at AQ. Since I completed my draconic book last night I'm quite sure I'll be high up on the lsit for getting the red shard from nefarian, but I'd rather wait on that if it means bringing people together.
Note: is it possible that with the current dkp/loot issues, that the disparity/animosity/comptetiveness between classes is causing people to feel less companionship within the group?
with not doing bwl ur hurting alot of good atendees too :(
Sword :sad:
Dajo if you don't get that sword soon, I suggest you sue Blizz for a couple of millions.. and the sword :nevermind:
Quote from: Jorgen;160788For example:
A full wipenight is 10 DKP, 2 for showing and 8 for 4 hours.
Yesterday was a total of 111 DKP for doing bosses that now is more or less on farmstatus.
Causing a wipe -50 DKP :lmfao:
I hope we get more experiance with instances really I attend all of them
But with my current job in rl is it getting harder and harder to stay till they end (real people need sleep to)
So I REALY hope we get a uber balanced raid and people that are up for wiping (on new bosses find our tactic)(buy pots for a boost make it hard for the boss to own us)
If we get a 100% fresh raid the progress will be there I know for sure
10.000 wipes in BWL we had now its on farm status so we make money in there do not drop it for a while
Quote from: opticalrush;161098Causing a wipe -50 DKP
lol.. no DKP for Sinap :roflmao:
:O! I havent caused a wipe evah!
with the money i'm making from bwl (and the gearups are nice too ofc!) i can repair in aq (and ofc do more dmg in aq)
Quote from: Sinap;161104:O! I havent caused a wipe evah!
(http://immortals.choka.nl/img/naamloos.jpg)
Wiping is not that bad after all people learn from there mistakes:boxing:
what the...
Some kid is serious scr.wed up...... :D
But I must admit that 4 hours raid is 10 dkp and the example given when it's on farm status and people earn 111 dkp. They go for the loot and win....
As we all know every system has it flaws, better is to come up with something better..... or improved.......mmmmm difficult.
Also, some peeps don't like wiping, but when they did a lot of time on a boss and finaly get it down the spirit is all back up. They encounter the next mob/boss and wipe within 30s everybody is laughing about it (because the feeling of killing the boss is still there). This was what happend in RG2 after killing Razorgore and TS went crazy. Our first attempt at V. was all dead withing 15 seconds, and nobody said a thing.....
Human minds, impressive......
QuoteThis was what happend in RG2 after killing Razorgore and TS went crazy. Our first attempt at V. was all dead withing 15 seconds, and nobody said a thing.....
that is wierd :S