After a few lengthy discussions between the Field Marshals we have come to the following draft ideas for raiding in TBC:
Raid groups will run at a 3 day schedule, using the days SOG used before: Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. There will be around 4 members per class per group, and an attendance requirement of around 75%. Should this requirement not be met then more people will be recruited such that the raid is always full. Members that are unable to raid must take action to let an officer know they're not coming.
For the rebuilding of the raid groups there will be a poll opened for all members with the options: I am a and I want to raid!
Note that the Field Marshals want everyone to raid, but due to instance size restrictions might not be able to fit everyone in. This rebuild will also provide the opportunity for members to switch their main to another class should you want.
Lastly a lot of debate and speculation on the DKP system has been seen from the member ranks. In order to provide some clarity the following is a short recap of the DKP system:
If a new DKP system is needed the old system will be used to provide a small carry over DKP (going into TBC the old system is the BWL/MC DKP site). This bonus will consist of sorting the classes from highest to lowest earned dkp, and awarding 10 dkp to highest down 1 for lowest.
Field Marshals intend to use a DKP system per raid tier. A raid tier is all instances yielding one tier of armor.
The DKP system will be remade to provide a higher bonus for progress nights. Controlled (i.e. farm status) fights will therefore yield far less DKP than they have over the last year.
Any word on numbers? I'm thinking ahead, and I'd be pretty annoyed if Lucian was passed over in favour of another hunter, and then missed a slot in a raid.
Sounds like a good draft :thumbup:
There is one issue that is not addressed that I really think we should take into consideration, and that is new members:
It is my opinion, which I also have discussed with some others (and it has also been pointed out by quite a few of those that have left in the recent time), that one of the reasons we have fallen apart the way we have seen the last month, is that SOG grew way too big - there were way too many new members joining, and it were difficult to maintain the old tight bonds that have been between the members (and also to include the new members in this).
I hope nobody feel hurt in any way by this, and if so I deeply apologize for that. It is not meant as something targeted to specific members in any way, it is just a general observation I have made.
We have many members left, and I assume also many that want to raid, so we shouldn't have any problems filling up one (probably two) raid group(s). Therefor I think we should freeze the admission of new members (close friends joining is another case, as usual) for a while, meaning, when a raid group (or more) are assembled, we should give it a decent amount of time to settle.
When we so choose to open up for new members again, I think we should change the application process. My main idea here is that it is not those who want to join that should submit an application, but they should need to get an existing (none-initiate) member to submit an application on their behalf. There are two main thoughts I have which I think this solution will address:
Firstly, we have in certain periods been over-flooded with applications. Some of them are the "random noob" that almost by pure luck ended up on our forum, others are "that-guy-that-has-already-submitted-10-applications", and you also have those applicants that actually are of interest for the guild (both as raiding- and none-raiding member). This vast amount of applications is for one quite tiresome to read, so I have very often found myself skipping that part of the forum (and I guess I'm not the only one, so what is than the use of such a system if almost none reads it anyhow), and I would also guess it leads to quite a lot of extra work for the Officers.
Secondly, I don't think the "sponsor system" works at all. The thought behind a sponsor, is that it should be somebody that really knows (doesn't need to be in RL) the applicant, so that we can have at least some kind of guarantee that it is a half decent person. Many that apply do it without a sponsor (and some don't even know anyone in the guild), and I would think that it's not an unreasonable guess to say that many of those that are sponsors in an application don't really know the applicant that well (e.g. someone you've been in a dungeon with once or twice, and he/she asked you to sponsor, and you thought "what the heck, he/she could heal/tank/DPS good enough).
My main point is, that you should really know the person you are sponsoring, and by doing it this way you actually have to think a bit about the person you're sponsoring. If you can't be bothered to write an application (or in our case, fill out a simple form) for a friend, you don't know the person good enough, or you don't care enough for him/here.
I think that SOG should be a guild where the members know and care about each other. You should of course not necessarily know everyone, but it should be in such a way that when new members join the guild, you can think "I've never seen that guy before, but I know that he is a close friend of Bastet (either in-game, RL or both), so I trust Bastet when he says it is an all right chap". That way I think we can maintain a close bond between our members.
So let us continue to make Silver Oak Guardians the best guild also in TBC, the same way as we have been before the expansion :clap:
best regards
Bob
Edit: this ended up quite much longer than I thought in advance, but I spent some time writing it, so I hope at least some read it and can supply some good comments to it :blush:
Could we have a raid group that starts at 8pm server time, for people in the UK with jobs and a family?
Quote from: Armitage;174136Could we have a raid group that starts at 8pm server time, for people in the UK with jobs and a family?
Oh yes PLZ - it would make my life a lot easier too :)
Im currently leveling my warrior as my main and will intend to riad on my warrior for at least quite a long time, I may in the future want to change to a diffrent one, will this be an option? (ps it would probably b my mage, but there is also a chance that it could b my shammy that i am leveling occasionally
Quote from: Armitage;174136Could we have a raid group that starts at 8pm server time, for people in the UK with jobs and a family?
Seconded! :thumbup:
Still don't want to raid on Tuesdays though which might be a long term issue for myself.
Quote from: Armitage;174136Could we have a raid group that starts at 8pm server time, for people in the UK with jobs and a family?
I'd vote for that also !! :)
I totally agree with you Bob, I've been thinking the same thing.
As for the draft, sounds good.
Personally I can not commit to raiding in the evening anymore, although I'd still like too. I don't know if anyone else has the 'problem', but wouldn't it be a nice idea to do one run a week in the weekends during daytime or something? I don't know if there is interrest for something like that, it's just a thought. Maybe we can organize 10 man runs on Saterday and Sunday in addition to the 'evening runs' for example, it shouldn't be to hard to get a group of that size together :g: .
Having (at least) two raidgroups that start at different times (GMT and GMT+1) also sounds like a plan. Then we won't have any RG1 > RG2 problems either, since they're equal.
Quote from: Armitage;174136Could we have a raid group that starts at 8pm server time, for people in the UK with jobs and a family?
That is good for people in GMT +0 but exemple I'm at +2 zone, so start time would be 21.00 and if you think that raids take about 4-5 hours it is 01-02 when it stops. And when getting up in 6.45 that leaves only about 5h to sleep. So I would like to keep the old raid times :) Or like someone said, different raid groups for different time zones :roflmao:
Quote from: sheepy;174141Im currently leveling my warrior as my main and will intend to riad on my warrior for at least quite a long time, I may in the future want to change to a diffrent one, will this be an option? (ps it would probably b my mage, but there is also a chance that it could b my shammy that i am leveling occasionally
Has been done, but its less likely. Also other feedback will be collected and revieuwed by Field Marshals, though if possible try to be a bit shorter then bob was :narnar:
Raid group starting later would provide a problem for raid time, since raid end tends to be at 10 gmt/11 euro.
Wise words there Bob - I'd fully endorse that. Maybe it'll stop the people who join for several months, leech all the epics they can, then leave us with little regret to join another guild.
I guess the next step is to compile a list of folks (and their classes) who want to raid (and can make the commitment). If you want to switch to an alt as your main now is the time to do it with so much nice gear dropping in the expansion.
Quote from: Bastet;174148though if possible try to be a bit shorter then bob was :narnar:
Heeey, I'm thorough - that's a
good quality :boxing:
But don't you have any opinions about it still?
Quote from: Bastet;174148Raid group starting later would provide a problem for raid time, since raid end tends to be at 10 gmt/11 euro.
Official raid times earlier was invites at 19:15 CET, and end no later than midnight.
I feel very much for those that live in GMT and might have to rush through dinner etc. to be in time for the raid, so I don't think it would hurt to postpone the raid - say invites at 19:45, raid starts 20:00
sharp.
On the other hand, I don't think it is any good just to push the raid back an hour (with people like Lex in mind that lives in a +2 zone, and also us that live in CET, cause ending at 1:00 is kinda late as well). The instances in TBC are now shorter than they have been earlier (don't know is this goes for the end-game lvl70 raid instances as well, that's just a guess), and with three raid days a week, it shouldn't be hard to progress with 4 effective hours each night (you just have to be hard with people, and stick to that
everybody has to be
at the instance entrance at 20:00).
I vote for 8pm start, and 11pm finish. I can live with that.
Would it also be possible to aim for a 2/3 attendance rate instead of 3/4? Its slightly less and makes managing weekday evenings that little bit easier.
this one was chosen cause of the smaller raid group sizes and thus ppl get to raid lots, more ppl means less raids all round.
Maybe make the weekend raid start around 13.00 for those that use the 12h system that would be 01.00 pm i think.
then raid for 4-5 hours and be done around dinner time.
that leaves only 2 night raids a week, would be real nice.
Nice raid times would be from say 8 GT till 11 GT? By the sounds of it this would fit more time zones :g:
Now back to bobs point :)
I agree that applications should be altered in some respects, I've been the 'sponser' for someone who i don't even know or recognise. We should make sure that people joining the guild are close friends to people in the guild (therefore as Bob said building a stronger community) :woot2:
However, i dont think we should COMPLETELY close applications, i think keeping applications open but being more selective (alot more selective) over who is joining the guild.
Maybe when someone has been selected an officer should talk to the person to check they are as their application states (i know some of my former guilds like eureka do this) and when they are an initiate they should be constantly watched to check they fit into the SoG community and help to increase the effectiveness of the raid group, tbh i've never really seen an initiate get watched :roflmao:
Hope this was good enough feedback bob :boxing:
Moony
may be a vote for start times,
See if we could run a later starting one as well as the usal start time:)
1st, everything what bob said is true,
2nd, ime taking a break from raiding that could last forever, reason is, over the last 1.5+ yrs ive been sleeping less than 5hrs when we raid, work performace went down, ive risked my job countless times and its still on the line even now. not to mention racing home from work and "eating" in 1-2min
i know its like a dagger in the back, but ask the sog's that barely sleep when we raid, ie: luna and bastet and dajo, and maybe even more...
i would only be interested in friday night, saturday after 1pm and sunday upto 10pm (all server time)
or, start the raids before, like 6.30 till 10 ish (which prolly aint possible, ie: gmt time zone)
bdw, when ille have tbc, ime not planning on rushing it. gonna take it slow and easy
My ideal day times: Friday night / Saturday afternoon evening / Sunday afternoon evening.
But a vote is I think the best option. That and plenty of variety - why not have 4 raiding slots (Tuesday/Thursday/Friday/Sunday) and have people commit to three of the four, or two of the four?
Its a workable system imho, provided that attendance is VERY carefully monitored to maintain standards. It might need someone to sit down with a register and tick the name of the players who turn up. But that way everyone should be happy.
EDIT: I'm with Gorion - I'm not going to rush my levelling to 70, I want to enjoy the experience and sample as much as possible. Would it be possible to set a guild deadline for raiding? Ie. something along the lines of only raiders lvl 68+ will considered, on Feb 21st?
Great plans there bastet (and the rest of the marshals).
Edit:
The end time of 11 to 11.30 is more important then the begin time of 19(:15)
Though keep in mind if ur gonna make it 20:15 then we might face simmilair problems as we did that we dont start before 20:45 leaving only 3 hours for raiding.
I kinda like the idea of a sunday afternoon raid but i don't think its practical. Since there will be nuff people doing something else (family visits, soccer, or sleeping (off the alcohol ^^)
Finally to come back to what bob said about the sponsoring, i fully agree with him, we have enough good members, and people should only sponsor if they "know" the person well IG/IRL.
@ Sheepy: Im kinda with you on that.. Due to some internet problems I didn't manage to get my mage to lvl 60 as I hoped for, so I will be leveling Nefertem first, but might want to change at some point..
@ Lucian & Gorion: Same here.. I want to experience the new content of the game, and don't feel like rushing through to lvl 70, so Id like to know aswell if there is some kind of deadline or a date set for raiding yet?
The Raidingdays and times doesn't really matter that much for me as I most likely can do all nights (although Id rather not see the raid last till 1am on weekdays)
I would personally like to see a compromise between the raid times suggested. say 19:30 or 19:45 server time?
I like some others here, have to rush home from work, have about 10 mins to eat and b with the family b4 having to get on for about 19:00 to do any prep needed for raids.
The times are set as they are because we have to set something, and this works, we cant start before due to UK, or after due to ppl that are +2, and neither groups is large enough to support a full raid group on thier own. As much as id like to poll for times i allready know what its gonne be, so many options and votes all over the place that we end up beeing unable to do anything. Now personably, i wouldnt mind starting a tad later, if everyone shows up on time and is at the door of said instance.
The end time of 11 to 11.30 will probably not change though, due to the fact that ppl need some sleep.
Wise words Bastet.
Though I do think the weekend afternoon raid is an idea that should be followed up. It is much easier to tailor one's week to, also if necessary I'm sure many peeps could continue into the evening. This would promote guild advancement in the new instances.
Mid-week raiding is annoying for many ppl who tend to have only just got home from work.
I've been thinking for some time about raiding again, but I want to see that there is a system that I can commit to in the long run before I really make a decision.
I think that quite a few ppl will leave when we start raiding again as there'll be alot of wiping and few loot rewards (a hard earned reward though is much more to savour). So I wouldn't be too bothered about closing applications especially as this is the time when we'll bump into new ppl whilst leveling up.
Shep
I'm in the same boat as a few others here, I get home around 6pm and have to start Tea and do a few chores. I struggle to get on much befor 7/7:30 (8:30 server time). I would other wise be happy to commit the time.
It may be that raiding just isn't for me, but it's a shame I have to miss out on such a large part of end game. Maybe I'll just play on an adhoc basis, if theres a space and im free ill happily put my name forward, won't have the dkp to get any nice items but at least I'll see the insides of these places.
jamoe, regarding tea, 1 word "sandwich"
regarding the chores. leave them, you can do them all on a non raiding day
Quote from: sheepy;174362jamoe, regarding tea, 1 word "sandwich"
regarding the chores. leave them, you can do them all on a non raiding day
1 word - SWMBO
Quote from: Sheperdbook;174351Though I do think the weekend afternoon raid is an idea that should be followed up. It is much easier to tailor one's week to, also if necessary I'm sure many peeps could continue into the evening. This would promote guild advancement in the new instances.
Same problem really, ppl have lunch between 11am-2pm and dinner between 5pm-7pm, dont leave to much room to work with since ppl normaly dont log on straight after and stay till right upto dinner due to having to cook/set table/clean table.
The idea's are nice, but i am really not sure how it would go in practice.
Quote from: Jamoe;1743791 word - SWMBO
Is that a word? :g:
Quote from: Nefertem;174382Is that a word? :g:
no but its there for comic affect :)
"She who must be obeyed" for those that don't know.
anyway, back on topic... ill post later I've got to fetch lunch for everyone.
its more of a phrase
Quote from: Bastet;174381Same problem really, ppl have lunch between 11am-2pm and dinner between 5pm-7pm, dont leave to much room to work with since ppl normaly dont log on straight after and stay till right upto dinner due to having to cook/set table/clean table.
The idea's are nice, but i am really not sure how it would go in practice.
Yes, you're right. That's what I meant when I said 'when there is interrest'. I forsee the same problems. It is however easier for people to change their schedule on days they're not working. But again, something like this will only work if there is enough interrest for it, that's why I suggested the 10 man dungeons.
Well im British myself and being a business man i tend to eat late so i just eat after raids :D
Works for me
Not everyone has the choise to eat at thier computer though, and at least for me, we eat w/ family at table, and i cant skip that, nor move about the time much.
I dont eat at the computer... i just eat after raids :sideways: sometimes it can be quite late though :sad:
saying that people who have their own children probably cant do this where as i only have a GF :yahoo:
Well if we're going to be critical really we shouldn't be raiding as either: everyone should be sitting down with their family for a meal or finishing off their work responsibly and driving safely home.
So let's get off the criticisms and assess the pro's.
PS I am a great fan of Moonwind's avatar. :D
When are we planning to start raiding?
just so i know when you need me to get to 70?
We'll start raiding whenever you and I are ready for it :flirty:
Nah wait for me to be lvl 70 ^^
Then you'll have te big plus of totem pwnage :P
Raiding from 8 pm till 11 pm (server time) looks fine to me! :yahoo:
The ideal days for me to raid are allmost everyday except thursdays and fridays, because I work on the night shift :angry: and have to sleep as well.
But ofc, this is just my opinion, I hope we can have a raiding plan that fits the majority of preferences of the guild members.
I can´t wait to get to lvl 70 and start to raid! It is so much fun then questing!
I would like to join the raid group. The days given work very well for me. Timewise, I prefer weekday raids to finish before 1:00 am (but I'm sure I could stretch that a bit) but at weekends any time.