Because of the recent druid aggro nerf I was wondering how things are looking now. On the official druid forums they already established that maul's threat was nerfed for about 25% for the regular blue geared level 60 druid. Because the threat multiplier was removed it doesn't scale as good anymore either (with my gear pre-TBC it was more like a 30-40% nerf though, nevermind the difference at level 70).
Yes, bear threat was insane and it scaled very well, it needed to get toned down. Removing the multiplier was however the thing I definately didn't like, because this was one of the druid's unique features, that made it different from the other tank capable classes.
The big question is how did the nerf effect us?
First of all, this is what happend:
Pre-TBC Maul: damage * 175% = threat
TBC-Maul (lvl 60): damage + 207 = threat
They removed the multiplier and replaced it with a static threat component. The maul we were using at level 60 adds 207 threat (proven by several independant community tests). So it you were doing more then 276 damage per maul hit (= everyone with more then 350 AP, lol) it's definately a nerf. There is however one advantage to this, the static threat won't be reduced by armor; in combination with lacerate it will help to partially alevate our 'problems' with heavily armored mobs (like we had any :narnar: ).
Pre-TBC Swipe: damage * 175% = threat
TBC-Swipe: damage + AP * 0.07 = threat
If you got more then 643 AP (= everyone), you'll acually cause more threat with swipe then before, since it scales with attack power now. The problem in the beta was that it had both the threat multiplier and scaled with AP, making it overpowered (you could hold aggro on everything by only pressing one button :sideways: ).
So our almightly single target threat got nerfed bigtime, but our multitarget threat got buffed :D .
But then again, will we notice the difference, insane > a lot, but a lot may be more then enough. Here is some data about the threat generation of a level 60 druid using the new maul and swipe. Base stats for the druid are 1540AP and 30% crit, which are normal for a raid buffed druid tank in blue gear (we nearly got those stats unbuffed now, but that's beside the point :P ). And he's tanking a regular raid boss with 25% mitigation (which is nearly every boss after being sundered and faerie fired).
I'll summarize my findings here. Anyone that's interrested can view the calculations below.
In an unlimited rage situation our test druid generates 1053 threat per second. No we won't always have unlimited rage, but as a druid I've never noticed it being a problem (we can spam everything using about 11 rage per second on a single target and use even less on multiple targets). In 5 man dungeons you got 3+ mobs pounding on you and raid bosses hit hard enough by themselfs. The 'crit = 5 rage' talent also helps a lot, especially when spamming swipe while tanking multiple targets.
To pull aggro, someone will need to do 1632+ DPS (melee) or 1369+ DPS (ranged), if they don't have BoS or any other threat reducing stuff. (Yeah I know caster crits generate 150% threat and such, but I'm to lazy to take that into account :P). With BoS they'll need to do well over 2000 DPS! Needless to say, noone does THAT much. Can you imagine what druid threat on level 70 is going to be like, when we also have lacerate and a shitload more attackpower (with epic gear and raidbuffs druids will easily pass the 3k AP mark).
Bottom line, druids still generate a truly amazing amount of threat and it still scales with our damage, be it not as well as before.
In terms of efficiency Maul > Mangle > Swipe > FFF > Demo roar, so no changes here. Mangle will generate more threat if you have more then 1109 AP, but it will never be more efficient because it's rage cost is twice as high (and it doesn't scale twice as well, 0.59202 > 0.5).
(1.3X + 136) * 1.1 * 1.2 * (1.3 * 1.15) = (X + 128) * 1.1 * 1.2 * (1.3 * 1.15) + 207
2,56542X + 268,3824 = 1,9734X + 459,5952
0,59202X = 191,2128
X = +/- 323
(323 / 2.5 - 50) * 14 = +/- 1109 AP required to make Mangle > Maul.
Note: The +15% threat talent appears to be bugged, it should be multiplicative now, but it's still additive (dunno if the warriors have the same problem). In the calculations below I used the additive form, when they fix it our generated threat will be buffed by another 4.5% ((1.3 * 1.15) - 1.45 = 0.045).
Calculations:
-----------------------------------------
1540 AP / 14 + 50 Base Bear DPS = 160 DPS
Maul:
Damage:
160 * 2.5 = 400
400 + 128 = 528
528 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 696.96
696.96 * (1.3 * 1.15) = 1041.9552
Threat:
1041.9552 * 1.45 = 1510.83504
207 * 1.45 = 300.15
1510.83504 + 300.15 = 1810.98504 TPH
1810.98504 / 2.5 = 724.394016 TPS
Mangle:
Damage:
160 * 2.5 * 1.3 + 136 = 656
656 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 865.92
865.92 * (1.3 * 1.15) = 1294.5504
Threat:
1294.5504 * 1.45 = 1877.09808 TPH
1877.09808 / 6 = 312.84968 TPS
Swipe:
Damage:
60 + 1540AP * 0.07 + 50 (idol) = 217.8
217.8 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 287.496
287.496 * (1.3 * 1.15) = 429.80652
Threat:
429.80652 * 1.45 = 623.219454 TPH
623.219454 / 1.5 = 415.479636 TPS
Total:
30 sec cycle = 12 * maul + (5 * Mangle + 15 * swipe)
(12 * 1810.98504 + (5 * 1877.09808 + 15 * 623.219454)) / 30 = 1348.853423 TPS from damage
(((12 + 5 + 15) * 0.3 * 25) / 30) * 1.45 = 11.6 TPS from power gain
1348.853423 + 11.6 = 1360.453423 TPS total
Example case (boss 25% DR):
Maul threat:
300.15 static threat + 1510.83504 damage threat * 0.75 = 1433.27628 TPH
1433.27628 / 2.5 = 573.310512 TPS
Mangle threat:
1877.09808 * 0.75 = 1407.82356 TPH
1407.82356 / 6 = 234.63726 TPS
Swipe threat:
623.219454 * 0.75 = 467.4145905 TPH
467.4145905 / 1.5 = 311.609727 TPS
Total threat:
(12 * 1433.27628 + (5 * 1407.82356 + 15 * 467.4145905)) / 30 = 1041.65506725 TPS from damage
(((12 + 5 + 15) * 0.3 * 25) / 30) * 1.45 = 11.6 TPS from power gain
1041.65506725 + 11.6 = 1053.25506725 TPS total
Melee DPS required to pull aggro:
1053.25506725 / 0.71 * 1.1 = 1632+ DPS
Melee DPS required to pull aggro (with BoS):
1053.25506725 / 0.7 / 0.71 * 1.1 2331+ DPS
Ranged DPS required to pull aggro:
1053.25506725 * 1.3 = 1369+ DPS
Ranged DPS required to pull aggro (with BoS):
1053.25506725 / 0.7 * 1.3 = 1956+ DPS
P.S.: I'll add some info to this threat about lacerate when I get any.
I managed to read 'Because of the recent druid aggro nerf' and then saw how much you had written so Ill skip the rest and say 'impressive, well said and so on'
Impressive Sandrion.. Well said.. and so on :flirty:
Well I did summarize it :g: , I guess I got a bit carried away as usual. But here is a summary of the summary, especially for you :narnar: :
The druid's threat generation got nerfed bigtime, but not enough to cause any trouble whats how ever. Out aggroing us is still impossible.
Interesting read Sandrion (oposite to Nef, I actually read the stuff (get out of our forum, you wannabe-bear :narnar:)) :thumbup:
Now I don't know anything about the math behind it, but I trust that you've got it right! And as long as we'll continue to pwn in feral, I won't complain :norty:
Good info for me (I did read read it all) I never did understand threat generation for the bear until now :yahoo:
Oh, as for the threat calculations, these are the calculations for the threat of every ability:
Maul (lvl 60): t = damage + 207
Mangle: t = damage
Swipe: t = damage
You need to take crits into account as well, which (in this case) is 30%, so damage * (1.3 * 1.15), because crit do 15% more damage with talents. Now you got the average amount of damage per hit.
The bear aggo modifier is 1.3 (+15% with talents), just like for warriors. So take the threat value of the ability and multiply them by this to get the total generated threat per hit. That's also the reason we can pull aggro just by shifting into bear (if you have furor and noone has touched the mobs yet).
Powergain is the threat that you generate by gaining rage or mana. So our 'crit = 5 rage' talent does infact generate threat as well. 5 threat per point of rage to be extact.
Pretty simple really.
To calculate our TPS (threat per second), just count which abilities you can use in a certain time frame. In this case I took 30 seconds, because you can divide it by our attack speed in bear (2.5 sec), the cooldown on mangle (6 sec) and the global cooldown (1.5sec).
Melee classes generate only 71% aggro (used to be 80% pre-TBC) and need to generate 10% more threat then the tank to pull aggro. Ranged generates 100% threat, but needs to generate 30% more threat then the tank to pull aggro. Blessing of Salvation cuts of another 30% threat generation (multiplicative).
Impressive work guys.
To think you need a degree in maths to understand WOW.
I just like press buttons and so forth.
Quote from: FBG;179127To think you need a degree in maths to understand WOW.
I just like press buttons and so forth.
same.. Doing ok though.. If I need some info I get someone else to do the math and redo the explanation to simple english :D
Hehe, with the upcoming druid path all formula's will be changed yet again, and thus this picture will change :rolleyes:
Yeah, it sucks. I can start all over again :narnar: .
Btw, I just noticed I promised to add some info about Lacerate when I got any. So here it is.
Theoretical stuff / what is it?
Lacerate is 'suppost' to be a bit like sunder armor. It generates threat on application, even when there are already five stacks up; so you can keep spamming it. So they are indeed similar in that aspect. On the other hand Lacerate has one advantage and (major) disadvantage. First of all it also deals a bit of damage over time, dependant on the amount stacks that are up. The down side is that it doesn't work on bleed immune mobs (elementals, undead and mechenical). It does not generate any threat on them; not the DoT, nor the static component has an effect.
The static part generates just over 200 threat before modifiers (if I'm correct; sorry I kind of forgot :g: ) and the DoT is just strait damage = threat. So more stacks up means more threat / second overall.
Practical stuff / how to use it?
The thing you probably want to know is probably how to use it.
Well I know all this is going to change soonish, but atm you don't want to use Lacerate on trash mobs at all. The reason for this is that even Swipe deals more threat vs a single target then Lacerate :blink: (both threat/second as threat/rage wise); and since thrashies die fast you won't be able to get enough stacks up for it to become effective.
On bosses it's another story. Once you get 5 stacks up, keep them up by refreshing them before the timer runs out. Also keep the Mangle debuff up to get +30% bleed damage from the DoT. Because the DoT keeps ticking at it's maximum rate it will generate a decent (and stable) amount of threat in addition to the static threat component. The savest thing to do is to use it as a rage dump as well, instead of using swipe like you might be used to, as long as you can keep Mauling and Mangling.
Skill prios vs bosses are now:
-1. Keep the Lacerate debuff up and refresh it before it expires, for maximal threat/rage efficiency.
-2. Keep the Mangle debuff up.
-3. Maul as much as possible (you should be able to do it on every attack in most cases). You should prefer Maul over Mangle, since it has a better threat/rage value and it always will, regardless of AP and crit%. Additionally specials can't be glancing blows, white hits can be vs +3 level bosses; if you use Maul on every attack you can't glance and don't 'lose' any DPS / threat.
-4. Dump rage with Mangle if it's not in cooldown, otherwise use Lacerate.
Hope this is of use to anyone.
P.S.: No, I don't have a degree in math. I don't even understand the notation they use sometimes; I tend skip the stuff with 'funny' symbols most on the time, since I can't be bothered to figure out what they mean :narnar: .
Thanks Sandrion, nice and informative as always :clap:
And btw, for those that are interested: this is what he just said written in forumlas :flirty:
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4114/w3p2ik0.th.gif) (http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4114/w3p2ik0.gif)
That looks like one of my notes, the scary bit is i actualy understand some of what it says :blink: