Having read both TL's and now Bastet's post regarding the problems at SoG and with both leaving, I wanted to ask whether there is any communication between those who are running SoG and the rest of us.
I know a few ppl have crossed over and started playing CS and contributing to the open forums but the vast majority haven't.
It'll be interesting to hear what what transpires at their meeting and whether SoG are going to remain active.
I know that SoG is part of dMw, and I guess what I'm going to say may not be the most popular, but surely half of the reason SoG got their forum here was because of TL and other existing dMw'ers playing WoW.
If that's not going to be the case and the majority of those original dMw'ers are going to join a new guild then, I guess, shouldn't SoG cease to be represented here and the new guild should?
Please note that I know very little about WoW, SoG or their infrastructures and I don't want to speak out of turn and I may be talking out of ignorance. It may transpire that may dMw'ers stay in SoG - it may not. If not then I humbly submit that our duty is to the dMw'ers and not the guild?:g:
PEN
The tricky thing is that the guild are dmw'rs - SoG is a large part of this community and until Sog tell us otherwise I guess they should stay part of the community.
BTW you are not talking out of turn. this area of the forum HAS to be a section where people can say what is on their mind and receive an adult debate about it, not histionics and hair pulling (I've got very little left so i don't do much hair pulling these days but you know what I mean :) )
Quote from: BlueBall;175530The tricky thing is that the guild are dmw'rs - SoG is a large part of this community and until Sog tell us otherwise I guess they should stay part of the community.
It's hard though isn't it as SoG came here because it has quite a few dMw'ers in its ranks. Other dMw'ers then started joining SoG. (Now, without access to their forums, it's hard for me to say how many original dMw'ers joined SoG).
My point is that apart from the several people in SoG who were not original dMw'ers (Bastet, Threb, Nefertem, Luminance etc), the vast, vast majority of them have never posted or interacted with the rest of the community and only in their private forum. ... so they may be part of the Community but there are an unheard part.
If those people in SoG who deign to contribute and communicate to the rest of the community leave then, in essence, we're supporting a guild which says nothing to the rest of the community. Furthermore, we may be losing those members who "do" contribute to the community but who have decided to leave SoG and start with a new guild.
As you say, once they EGM is held we'll know more - this is all specualation..... and take it from there
PEN
...although looking at the posts this afternnon I think bastet was the start of the floodgates..
Oooer :(
Quote from: BlueBall;175554...although looking at the posts this afternnon I think bastet was the start of the floodgates..
Oooer :(
Hmmm. It's looking like SOG's demise can't wait for the meeting tonight.
I can't see them or their forums but I gather then the gist of it isn't good :sad:
PEN
Quote from: Penfold;175591I can't see them or their forums ...
PEN
Really? :g:
Quote from: Penfold;175591I can't see them or their forums but I gather then the gist of it isn't good :sad:
PEN
Same here.
Quote from: OldBloke;175592Really? :g:
Yup. The guys will have access to the CS/BF2 stuff but not rthe private SoG forums unless they were Forum Admins (You, me and TL)
Quote from: BlueBall;175598Yup. The guys will have access to the CS/BF2 stuff but not rthe private SoG forums unless they were Forum Admins (You, me and TL)
ahem... :narnar:
Quote from: Gandalf;175600ahem... :narnar:
:blush:
err, oops?
Quote from: Penfold;175591I can't see them or their forums but I gather then the gist of it isn't good :sad:
PEN
I took this to mean that Pen has no visibility of SOG whatsoever.
He does not. OB, TL, BB and G have access only.
Btw, please keep a moderator's eye on the announcement thread in SOG, SOG is being disbanded and it may or may not get ugly as people let their emotions get in the way of their better judgement.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;175613He does not. OB, TL, BB and G have access only.
Btw, please keep a moderator's eye on the announcement thread in SOG, SOG is being disbanded and it may or may not get ugly as people let their emotions get in the way of their better judgement.
TL.
Will do. there's enough of us around to handle things I reckon and bastet made a reasoned argument in his post so I would hope that the grumbles would be that, just grumbles.
And me. :) I went in there once. :wacko: Bloody got out as soon as I could, the things that go on in there ought to be banned!
Quote from: TeaLeaf;175613... please keep a moderator's eye on the announcement thread in SOG, SOG is being disbanded and it may or may not get ugly as people let their emotions get in the way of their better judgement.
TL.
Can you explain the process involved when disbanding a guild? I noticed from Bastet's post that this will happen in about a week's time. Why the delay?
After a orgional decission to disband the guild due to lack of replacement in the 11th hour Gorion stepped up as a new guildmaster and will aim to make the guild a social guild and possibly casual raid in the future. Id like to wish him luck and tomorrow w/ TL we will work out the details.
If a guild disbands then it is a quick action, you just type a command and that's it, the Guild is deleted and no longer exists, so when members log in they are no longer a member of a guild, have no Guild list to refer to in game and no Guild Chat channel to talk in. Effectively they end up as a solo player now looking for company with nowhere to call home. Any delay is usually to allow people to find a new home and join a new Guild beofre becoming homeless. But as Bastet said, Gorion is taking over so we'll talk through details tomorrow. I've known Gorion for almost 2 years and is a sound fellow.
TL.
Good luck with it and hope it all pans out for SoG.
Cheers
PEN
Quote from: TeaLeaf;175640... But as Bastet said, Gorion is taking over so we'll talk through details tomorrow. I've known Gorion for almost 2 years and is a sound fellow.
TL.
I'm not comfortable with this. When we agreed that SOG would be dMw's WoW guild it was because TL was instrumental in shaping SOG into a guild suitable to be deemed compatible with our ideals. Vargen, as Guild Master of SOG, was to become Section Admin and the merger looked sweet. But Vargen left, TL left and now Bastet has left. From the ranks of SOG has materialised a volunteer willing to run SOG. I respect your opinion TL but I no longer have confidence that SOG has a place in dMw.
I therefore propose that dMw cuts all ties with SOG and that dMw starts afresh as far as WoW is concerned. If SOG is to survive it will do so outside of dMw.
The thoughts and opinions of you all are welcomed.
I think it depends on who is left. If a large contingent of dMw are still active in SOG, then they have a place with us, if not then the members who still want to be part of the dMw WoW community, should have an area of the forum in the same way BF2/DMR and CS has.
If SOG stay then it also makes more difficult any plans to start a dMw WoW guild, so I can understand your concerns. It's no skin off my nose either way.
For the record, Gorion was the GM of my first ever Guild, he followed me to SOG to raid and he has been with me ever since. I've actually known him longer than both Vargen and Bastet.
The rest is down to you folks, I'm content to take a back seat on this one.
TL.
Some dMw may migrate back to ACL, not sure if all will though.
TL.
Quote from: Whitey;175663I think it depends on who is left. If a large contingent of dMw are still active in SOG, then they have a place with us, if not then the members who still want to be part of the dMw WoW community, should have an area of the forum in the same way BF2/DMR and CS has.
It matters not 'who is left'. It's the leadership and direction that concerns me. dMw should have a WoW section that is 'dMw'. The recent resignations have, IMHO, destroyed the ties that bound us.
Just as an aside, DarkAngel left SOG and has set up a rival guild called Redemption and took with him a group of 4 junior officers who worked with him on RG2 and are actively poaching from SOG atm.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;175667Just as an aside, DarkAngel left SOG and has set up a rival guild called Redemption and took with him a group of 4 junior officers who worked with him on RG2 and are actively poaching from SOG atm.
TL.
I have no problem with that. If dMw cannot provide for the needs of the individual then they have every right to seek them elsewhere. This does, however, further demonstrate the futility of trying to keep SOG a part of dMw.
Another thing to consider is this ...
When Bastet and the SOG officers met to discuss the future of SOG, they decided to pull the plug. As Bastet was representing the dMw officers then dMw made the decision to disband SOG. No one else was in a better position to decide the fate of SOG than those people at the meeting and they decided to call it a day. The fact that a volunteer stepped forward to run SOG after the decision was made to disband is, IMHO, irrelevant. It does, however, put dMw in a tricky position. We should be sticking by Bastet and the other SOG officers and respect their decision to disband. But there are a few soggies who don't want this to happen.
I believe the best way forward is to continue with the plans to disband SOG and if the remaining soggies want SOG to rise from the ashes then they are free to do so outside of dMw.
Well as I said, I'm happy to follow your counsel here. If that's the decision then we need to make Gorion aware as early as possible as he would need to sort out a new TS server, forum host and we would need to look at the export of their section of the forums to their new forum (although he may feel that a clean set of forums is the best way forward!).
We would also need to solidify any plans for a dMw WoW guild if that is what is planned to replace the SOG section or if indeed anything replaces it at all. No point jumping before we know where we're going to land.
TL.
I'm going to go with my gut feelings here and say we say goodbye to SOG.
I will post a message in the SOG area stating ...
1. SOG to be closed down within dMw.
2. SOG forums will be archived for later retrieval if required.
3. Whether SOG is disbanded is up to Bastet/Gorion.
I've posted in the SOG forum.
http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=18385
There is a possibility that there may be a backlash in one form or another. Please stay out of any flame wars and moderate where necessary.
I do think we have acted too quickly here, we started this yesterday and there has been very little comment form others in the matter. My last post mentioned that I thought we should not jump before we know where we are going to land and I think acting this quickly we have done precisely that.
Likewise we have no idea what we will replace things with just yet and so we have jumped, are now falling and do not have iether eyes to see on what will land or any idea of when we're going to land.
TL.
I am disappointed you didnt even give us the time to work out some details, yes i stepped down as GM, but pending a chat agreed upon w/ gorion i was aiming to stay involved in SOG just not as a leader, since ill be raiding w/ Genesis. Gorion let me keep my alts in SOG and remain an officer pending further discussion today. However when i woke up i find that you allready apperantly took it upon yourselfs to kick SOG out.
You cant even wait for the small print to be figured out, i am deeply disapointed....
Quote from: Bastet;175712I am disappointed you didnt even give us the time to work out some details, yes i stepped down as GM, but pending a chat agreed upon w/ gorion i was aiming to stay involved in SOG just not as a leader, since ill be raiding w/ Genesis. Gorion let me keep my alts in SOG and remain an officer pending further discussion today. However when i woke up i find that you allready apperantly took it upon yourselfs to kick SOG out.
You cant even wait for the small print to be figured out, i am deeply disapointed....
Now hang on ... you informed us that, following a meeting of the SOG officers, you had decided to disband the guild (after announcing your own resignation from SOG beforehand). Therefore there is nothing to kick out. SOG, you said, had ceased to exist and the command would be entered to disband within a week. Make your mind up, mate.
Quote from: OldBloke;175660I'm not comfortable with this. When we agreed that SOG would be dMw's WoW guild it was because TL was instrumental in shaping SOG into a guild suitable to be deemed compatible with our ideals.
Also, as Whitey says:
Quote from: Whitey;175663I think it depends on who is left. If a large contingent of dMw are still active in SOG, then they have a place with us, if not then the members who still want to be part of the dMw WoW community, should have an area of the forum in the same way BF2/DMR and CS has.
Both these say exactly what I was trying to say when I started this thread (although I pussy-footed by way around the point) and they've managed to sum it more eloquently and in far fewer words!.
If it wasn't for TL then SoG would never have had a place here. Now that TL and the original members have left I think that it's time for dMw to conisder their continued support.
If TL and the other ORIGINAL instigators are setting up a new guild, and they want it to form part of dMw, then THAT should become the official dMw guild,
I started this thread by saying:
If that's not going to be the case and the majority of those original dMw'ers are going to join a new guild then, I guess, shouldn't SoG cease to be represented here and the new guild should? and I stand by it.
My loyalty lies with those who have and continue to work hard for the Community as a whole - not for a fraction of it. Sorry if that sounds harsh to the remaining SoG'ites, but this Community owes more of a debt of gratitude to TL and Co. than to the others.
I would feel real uncomfortable if a new dMw-style WoW guild is set up and is not able to be part of the Community because we have SoG.
If the decision is to split, I also think that we should do whatever we can to ameliorate such a change and make the process as painless for eveyone as possible - and it may be that is should be phased in over a short period of time.
PEN
PS. Oldie, can you please post the message you posted as SoG as us lesser mortals can't read it - thanks :)
PPS. the above post is now pretty much out-of-date. (I wrote it earlier but only just posted it - there have now been several posts inbetween I see).
Quote from: Penfold;175724... PS. Oldie, can you please post the message you posted as SoG as us lesser mortals can't read it - thanks :)
Here's the message (now pulled as TL helps with Gorion's exit strategy).
QuoteI have followed closely the recent events regarding SOG. Bastet (as dMw's Section Admin for WoW) has kept me and the other admins up to date with events.
Yesterday he informed us that he would shortly be posting a message announcing his retirement from SOG. At the same time he told us that a meeting of the SOG officers was scheduled for later that day to discuss the future of SOG in light of the recent spate of resignations of SOG members.
The outcome of that meeting was a decision to disband SOG. That decision will be respected by the rest of dMw.
It's great that a member has emerged from the ranks and volunteered to keep SOG alive. All organisations are only as strong as the people running them and a willing, capable volunteer is worth their weight in gold.
However, I must inform all remaining SOG members that if SOG is to live on then it will do so outside of dMw.
We have seen some excellent cross-fertilisation of people and ideas since SOG became dMw's supported WoW guild and I know that both groups have made new friends as a result. We sincerely thank you for the contribution you've made to this community and hope you will all continue to do so in the future.
The SOG forum section will shortly be archived to be replaced by a generic WoW section. Should SOG find a new forum we will, if at all possible, aid in the transfer of the archived posts to their new home.
Good luck to all.
As an update (albeit a little late), the new management is in place at SOG.
Bastet, myself and Tanales (all members of the previous SOG management) have been invited back into SOG and accepted places again as Field Marshalls with the brief to help the Guild remain on the straight and narrow, provide advise and the benefit of our experience to help the other officers run the Guild. We took up these roles about a day or so after we left.
Oldie and I are currently discussing the different exit strategies and we hope to have concluded this shortly.
TL.
This information is provided to dMw Head & Section Admins only, it is not general knowledge.
To update and conclude this thread:
- Gorion (Guild Master of SOG) is aware that dMw wish to put a bit more distance between dMw & SOG.
- dMw official support notes on the forums have been removed
- Gandalf's estimates of the cost of supporting SOG bandwidth were approximately £8pm
- Gorion has been offered the choice to remain hosted here or to move hosting elsewhere.
- Gorion chose to remain with dMw. He was very clear that he saw dMw as 'home' and wanted to remain. He also wanted SOG members to still be welcome on dMw's other servers etc.
- dMw will therefore continue to provide forum hosting & TS facilities etc for SOG.
- We have no contractual agreement with SOG asking them to pay for services as this would entail us breaking our TS licencing agreement which we do not wish to do.
- We have just received from Gorion a personal and unrelated donation of £130 to the dMw Community Funds which is scarily similar to what we estimate it will cost us to host SOG over the next 12 months including a very generous allowance for Paypal charges.
- I do not believe Gorion has discussed this with his fellow SOG officers (I am still an officer in SOG and have seen nothing like this discussed), so I believe he has taken this decision and funded it himself. This in itself shows a fair degree of commitment and matuirty.
So, SOG stay on the forums but you will note they have been 'de-prioritised' a fair bit within the WoW section. All that shows now is the SOG section (Private) and a 'How to join SOG' link.
SOG are no longer referred to as our preferred or supported WoW guild.
For my part I hope that they continue to stick around, we have had a number of crossovers and I suspect WoW will lose quite a few players over the next 18 months as 'burnout' starts to kick in to those people who started playing it some 30 months ago. I very much hope we are able to welcome those players and enourage them whenver we see them on our servers - we have but a short time to make them active dMw members rather than just active WoW players!
TL.
Thanks for the update TL. I too hope the guys stay around, if you are chatting to Gorion please pass on our best wishes to him for the future of SOG.
You just have to look on Boomer to see the affect SoG has had. We have had a lot of members come over and I'm glad they decided to stay. :D
I think it's great that they've decided to stay and, as Whitey says, there has been a great cross-fertilisation of gamers to CS:S (all of whom seem to be irritatingly better than I :ranting2:) lol
However the only thing I guess is worth mentioning is the ACL clan. I got emailed by Smite asking that they ACL'ers sit together at the LAN and on asking what ACL was, he replied:
ACL = Argh Crap Leggit.
The first dMw WoW Guild.
Squ0nk
Smite
Armitage
Jamoe
Benny
Jas
Neil
Sadako
This was the first I've heard of it and not sure how this fits in with anything but thought it was worth a heads-up (especially the 'first dMw Wow Guild' bit).
I don't know if they've asked for a forum or enquired about being officially supported, but I guess it could potentially cause a dilemma.
PEN
Afaik, ACL was a guild by dMw ppl, where as SOG was the dMw wow guild.
That said i am very glad the gorion has chosen to remain in the dMw structure, eventhough its not officialy supported anymore. It is as he says home for SOG :D
Quote from: BlueBall;185299Thanks for the update TL. I too hope the guys stay around, if you are chatting to Gorion please pass on our best wishes to him for the future of SOG.
Indeed. And thanks to you Paul for all your efforts in achieving this result.