Raiding in the old days
Now most people in the guild joined the guild for raiding. Most people that are left are the casual raiders.
We are currently facing what every guild faces when a level cap is increased. If you aren't the first to start the top end content people will slowly dribble away to the other guilds that are doing the end content. Silver Oak Guardians stopped this in one simple way the first time we reached a level cap. The first people to level60 set it as a goal to change the guild into a raiding guild instead of leaving for another guild. The officers(me, vargen, kreuz and Irulan) + a select few (Azurei and Silverthorn/Sitha) were a tight group that went through all the instances together from level30 to 60 and were among the first level60s in the guild. Most of us shared the same passion for PvE content and wanted to start MC but like so many others we loved this guild and weren't going to leave the guild just to join some other guild for raiding. So kreuz having met up and done alot of 5man/15man content with Danu got me and vargen into some runs also and we teamed up with Danu for raiding MC. No many in the guild remember those days now but it wasn't easy. Danu and SoG had a total of about 45 level60 characters and we had alot of pickups join the raids and some of those joined the guilds later. For example Dillinja whispered me 15minutes before a raid if a mage called Teaelle could join the raid. It was our second Magmadar kill and first Gehennas kill and TL was the only one standing after we killed Gehennas. Another thing that was very hard was for people to show up on the right time for raids, it wasn't common to have a schedule to play by and we often had to wait half an hour or more just to get started with 35people in the raid.
Getting a group ready for Karazhan
Now we do not face the exact same problems now, most people understand that being on time for raids is crucial and preperation before a raid is vital. But even though we have more then enough level 70 to raid we do not have the right classes. Most classes have 2-4 level70 but we only have 2 lvl66 priests and lvl68 and 64 pallies and that 64 pally being my alt. We have 2 level70 druids though i think both of those are feral spec. Now we have too many people in the guild at the moment to go out and try recruiting for instances.
Now what we need is to get the healers leveled up. It is painful and boring to level up a healer even though you are in a DPS spec. What is needed is for people to be willing to help the lower level healers to level up. I personally play 4-6evenings a week and am up for any instance run but the problem with this is that it takes way to long time to gather a group and often groups fall through because of lacking a tank. My idea is that we get a signup site like we had for ZG and AQ set up as a calender where everyone can add a run. Until i have found and set up this site i will use the forums for these kind of sign ups and have instance runs almost daily starting at 20:00 and usually taking 2runs in a row like Slavepens and Underbog or Mana Tombs and Crypts. Most of these will be with my pally or targeted for some other healer. What is needed is help from other people, the problem is that most of the tanks are high level and healers are low level. We need people willing to help the healers and some others to level up so we can start raiding.
If this project works we should be able to start Karazhan in 2-4weeks.
Keying up for Karazhan
Karazhan attunement isn't that hard.
You need to do
2quests in Deadwind pass
Go to Dalaran
Go to Shattrah
Get a Key fragment in Shadow Labs(Auchendon - Terokkar Forest)
Get a Key fragment in Steamvaults(Coilfang Resorvoir - Zangramarsh)
Get a Key fragment in Arcatraz(Tempest Keep - Netherstorm)
Finish Black Morass(Caverns of Time - Tanaris)
Using the same sign up system we should be able to get most people keyed up in 2-3raid days.
I haven't done Arcatraz and I haven't finished Black Morass yet, but Steamvaults and Black Morass are relativly Quick runs with good groups so it should be possible to run those after the other runs.
Getting ready for Karazhan
Now preperation for the raid comes in many forms. We will need full blue gear, preferably all from level70 instances/quests. Since we will be lacking some in gear in the start we will also need alot potions in the start.
Every person in the group will need atleast 6k health unbuffed. Melee should expect 8k health unbuffed and tanks 10k health unbuffed. Now we will need food buffs and potions in the start to get those numbers but those numbers should be your minimum goal.
We will need this compotition for a 10man group
2tanks
3healers
5DPS
Now in my opinion the optimal 10man group(w/o shammy, change the Resto druid for Resto shammy) is as follows:
Druid(feral)
Warrior(prot)
Paladin
Warlock
Rogue
Mage
Priest
Druid(Resto)
Hunter
Mage
Now getting an optimal group isn't very likly, we will still lack healers even though we can get 2-3pallies and 2-3priests up so we will need most of the druids to spec Resto or at least 20+points in resto. Since this will cost us some tanks we will also need warriors to spec 15+points in Protection. Now I am not forcing anyone to spec that way but we will have little chance of raiding without healers and tanks.
Lastly we will need to know the tactics for the bosses. Here is a link to tactics for all the bosses except endboss http://www.dsight.be/tbc/Karazhan.htm
The Illhoof tactics might be outdated since he was changed in last patch but else the tactics should be correct
What to do when ready for Karazhan
I expect that we will want to raid 3days a week in Karazhan. Maybe only 1 or 2 in the start and use the other days for gearing up in other instances. Now for those that want to do more i will be gearing up and getting my rep up in other instances using the sign up system on other days and will soon there after start doing heroic signups. We might also want to drop 1raid day in Karazhan sometimes for a heroic run days.
Nice and wise, mister Drazila :D
Now Im one of the warriors at lvl 70, and will spec prot if I have to.. So far I haven't enjoyed tanking as much as doing DPS, but then again, I haven't really enjoyed playing Nef that much.. I my spare time I will try and get my Draenei priest up (only a mere lvl 14 atm though), and at times my mage..
But if we begin before I get the priest up, I will ofc get my warrior in.. I believe that none of the warriors at lvl 70 currently is prot specced, but as I said Ill help :)
It would be great to see SOG in Karazhan, but just so you don't feel disheartened or left out, many guilds (including most BWL/AQ40 guilds) have yet to start Karazhan, so SOG is not 'behind'. PA for example which was an AQ40 guild only started Karazhan last week.
For my part I am happy to contribute time where it helps - I know all the above instances and quests, so please if you need a mage don't be shy, ask for help if you cannot get the needed class from within SOG.
I strongly recommend that all players try to complete all the quest lines in both Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley - some of the trinkets, rings & weapons are well worth having, some of which will last you for quite a while.
Karazhan is actually great fun with really varied fights and as an added incentive it drops some of the Tier 4 epics you might want!
Finally, in order to prepare for Karazhan, make use of the +Sta gear available. It's available for a reason and the first time a mount charges you in the Stable block in Karazhan you'll understand why!
Bravo Teni!
TL.
Excellent post Teni. I plan on being the hunter in the first Karazhan group. :P Notice has been duely served...
re prot tanks, ille be changing back to prot once we start raids again ;)
Great initiative Teni!
Quote from: Drazila;178197Druid(feral)
Warrior(prot)
Paladin
Warlock
Rogue
Mage
Priest
Druid(Resto)
Hunter
Mage
Some comments on this group layout, unless your healers are very well kitted out you will want to have another, fights last long and are mana intensive. Preferably a second priest, as there is a lot of Undead in there that are suceptible to shackle. The Druid tank will work great to a point (bosses are nono due to poor +defense itemisation for druids).
An, please let me know if you need any help w/ tacies :)
PS: Maiden is also buffed along w/ Illhoof (same patch)
My original setup had Pally/Priest instead of the extra mage but i decided since we already were lacking healers and in general 1healer can keep a 5man group alive it should go ok with 3 but yeah i wouldn't mind a 4healers or even a shadow priest just for mana regen for healers and casters.
Personally I prefer healing a druid tank over a warrior because druids usually have more health and armor and i find it easier to heal some one with high health. Most raiding guilds seem to use druid tanks for heavy hitting bosses while they use warriors for casters and other bosses with special moves they can counter better. Nihilum had 3feral druids on their world first hydross kill though i don't know if any of them tanked.
A Warrior needs 490defense skill to be immune to critical hits. You need 340Defense rating to get that or 290 if you have anticipation like all good prot warriors.
A feral druid looses one of the benefits from defense(block% increase) and will have Survival of the fittest like a warrior will have Anticipation. That reduces the chance of being critically hit by 3% and a boss crits 5.6% normally and does 15% crushing blows.
A druid only needs 216defense rating to be immune to crits from a boss.
Last time i talked to Vargen about his gear he had about 450Defense and that is 10defense skill over immune to criticals for druids.
Now even if it is harder to get the defense for druids then warriors, it is still not impossible and not as vital as for a warrior.
You can get 120 defense rating from rings, trinkets and amulet though this is easier as a jewelcrafter.
Lets say 5 Enduring Talasites in blue sockets and 5 Thick Dawnstones + a meta gem and you got 92 more defense rating. That is about 210defense rating that both classes can get relativly easily.
Crit imune yes, but its not the crits that kill the druid, its crushing blows, and you need more defense to minimise though (which last i checked (pre tbc) also got less % chance the more defense the tank has)
And yes 5 man, but this is 10 man, FE most mobs in the stables hit for 3-4,5k per hit, which requires a tad more healing power, and there the mana pool kicks in, even with high geared healers its challanging, and lots of mana pots get used :rolleyes:
Defense from gear has no effect on crushing blow. Only defense from level.
Warriors can remove the chance of being crushing blowed by using shield block but shield block is down half the fight.
Also if we take the 4k hits from your post and compare to stats from this post (http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9806&page=2).
Quote"Armor: Druid has 23.2k unbuffed (not 24k, did some reverse engineering on LoH), 24.5k with buffs, warrior should, with the same buff, be below 15k, i refuse to believe that a warrior with same buffs (druid has 1.3-1.5k armor from buffs) have 16k armor in that gear unless you can show me a profile with that much armor, so 15k armor on a warrior.
Druid mitigation: 67.2% mitigation
Warrior mitigation: 60.08% after Defensive Stance
Difference: Druid takes 17.84% less damage than the warrior per hit
Now 4k hit on this warrior is 10k unmodified or 3.3k on the druid. Now buff that up to Crushing it gets 6k and 4.95k. So a crushing blow will hit for 1k less on the druid.
nice post mate :)
and since lucian wanna be the uber hunter, I wanna be ze pally!
2lvls to go.. so 5man all the way, doing atunement quest at same time would be great, if possible. can talk about this when i'm comming on a non suprise wisit later today :flirty:
resilience > crushing blows right?
nope but for a druid resilence could be a better alternative then +defense rating but a warrior can ingore resilence as a tank unless you are tanking a caster.
Nope, resiliance only reduces crit% and crit damage, so druids have no way to reduce the number of crushing blows.
I'm not gonna bore everyone with math this time :narnar: , but generally speaking at this point in time a druid will be better at tanking any pure melee boss. Overall incoming damage is less for a druid then a warrior; if we take the gear that most people are currently wearing into account. A druid has about 10k more armor, more health and nearly as much dodge as a warrior's dodge and parry combined. Imp.LotP makes up for the druid's lack of block; currently I get about 500HP back every 9 seconds on average. Crit's are not a problem with proper defense gear and crushing blows don't hit hard enough to pose to much of a problem, since they don't hit all that much harder then a normal blow on a warrior.
All other bosses should definately be tanked by a prot warrior. Druids are just mana sponges when it comes to magic damage. Naturally nearly every boss does some kind of magic damage, so I'd say leave the boss tanking to a warrior and let the druid off-tank / handle trash.
But it's absolutely usefull to have a feral druid along, maybe not purely as tank, but for filling gaps; a feral druid can properly fullfill every role (save for caster DPS) if they have the right gear with them.
Anyway, great idea :thumb: .
Quote from: Drazila;178382nope but for a druid resilence could be a better alternative then +defense rating but a warrior can ingore resilence as a tank unless you are tanking a caster.
Elitist jerks theorycrafted that Defense is still better for druid, since it also makes you get missed by bosses, and increases dodge, eventhough for pure crit reduction resilience is better (40 points against 60 points for defense)
Absolutely true. Resiliance is largely a wasted stat in PvE. Once you hit the crit immunity cap, the crit damage reduction part loses it's value. Defense will always remain usefull, since it also adds miss and dodge%.
Btw, does anyone know if +def reduces spell crit%? Or does it only reduce melee crit%? Although if it does, is it even possible for boss spells to crit? I know they made it impossible for mob 'special abilities' to crit a few patches ago; but is a spell a special ability :g: ?
afaik only melee
but warrs do get a skill that reflects the next spell cast onto them , and spell dam reduction in prot tree :)