As was said on the last TS meeting, we are now at the point where we will open up for new members again. It was agreed on the meeting that there will be two ways to join SOG: the "normal" way will be the one suggested in [post=176010]this thread[/post], but if we when it comes to raiding see that we need a specific number of people from a specific class (and none of our members knows anyone), we can announce (in our public forum, Aszune forum etc.) what we need, and ask that people PM an officer (I suggest one person get this responsibility, to keep it simple) for an application form, which than said officer can submit when he receives it filled out.
For the normal application form, I suggest we alter the old one (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=sogapp) (somebody said that were something that TL easily could do? TL?) to the following:
- Character Name:
- Class:
- Race:
- Past Guild Affiliation:
[/B]
- Why does the applicant want to join SOG?
- Why do you want the applicant to join SOG?
- Does he/she know anyone else in the guild?
- Anything else?
[/B]
The link to the application form will than be placed in the Applicants to SOG (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=172) section, so members can submit application on behalf of their friends. Submitted applications will end up in the same forum, where members can comment for some time (say 5 days, or a week?) before we move the thread into our private forums and make a decision.
As we said on the meeting, we will be starting to use this system asap. All those that in the last weeks have asked for membership will get it granted (Gorion was going to make a list of this - will you remember to do it soon, so we can see who to invite if we see them online?), but from now on, applications will have to be submitted this way.
Did I forget anything now?
Here is a draft to inform the members about this:
We have now reached a point where we feel it is OK to open up for applications to the guild again. There will be a small change on how this was done earlier.
In principle, nobody can apply themselves for a membership in SOG. To join the guild, one of the existing members (not initiates) will have to submit an application on the behalf of the applicant. This way, we hope that people will actually know the person they are sponsoring, and through this improve the social quality and the bonds in the guild.
An application can be submitted through (link, for when the new form is ready), and it will be open for other members to comment on it for 5 days before we take it into the private officers' section to make a final decision.
If we should get in a position where we need a special class for raiding and nobody knows anyone they would like to have into the guild, we will announce this (our own Recruitment Status thread, Aszune realm forum etc.), telling those interested to PM an officer for an application form. Received applications will be posted by an officer on the normal way, with necessary extra information.
Best regards
The Officers
Suggestion for an update of the text in the [post=176144]Recruitment Status[/post] thread:
There are two ways you can join SOG:
The main rule, is that one of our members will have to submit an application on your behalf. If you have a friend in SOG, ask him/here about it, and he will know what to do. This can always be done, independent on the recruitment status.
If we at some point should need a particular class due to a raiding need, this will be announced in this thread. You will than be able to send a PM to an officer, asking for an application form.
Current recruitment status: No classes needed
Alternative text for when we need one or more classes:
Current recruitment status: 1 priest and 1 shaman needed
Send a PM to Bob (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=869) to get an application form if you are interested.
Amending the application form can be done, no problems, and the resultant application posted onto the forums in the Applicants to SOG section. However, one of the major drawbacks of Bob's suggestion is that the applicant is not registered as a user on these forums and therefore will not be using and has no incentive to use the forums here - in addition you get little info about the person's language skills. That was the main reason for making people apply for themselves - by all means have them sponsored, but if it is going to be existing SOG members writing the apps then you do not need an application form at all as you can simply post a template for members to use.
My advice would be to amend the process to get the applicant to apply for themselves otherwise you miss out on a whole bunch of language assessment and you now havea new member who has little incentive to use the forums - and the forums are a strong part of the community - if SOG has a busy forums then members will keep coming back, will keep getting more involved and will feel a stronger bond and ownership of SOG.
TL.
Also, having them PM a officer was used for a long time but changed in favor of the current application system due to the massive ammount of work involved for the officer that was on applications. Multiple officers wont work, as if you give a list ppl tend to grab the first one anyway.
My personal thoughts on this, as the suggested system was discussed on the TS meeting:
@TL:The language assessment part I can get. About getting on the forum, that is not harder than that we say people will not be invited before they have registered. We can also make it a requirement that they post in a "Hi, I'm new in SOG" thread to introduce themselves before they will get invited.
The two main flaws with the old system (which I also described in detail in that post I [post=176010]linked[/post]), is firstly that the sponsor system doesn't work as intended. People seem to be sponsoring applicants just because they had been with the on a random UBRS run - or even worse, just because the got asked to, without even knowing the person.
The second major flaw, is that the application system as it was, was constantly open all the time, which lead to quite a lot of "spam applications".
I think that the profit from the new system by far outgoes the (rather small I'd say) disadvantages it brings.
@Bastet: Yeah, it can possibly be a problem. But I don't think it would be as much of a problem as it were earlier, as this kind of applications only will be open at the times when we need a particular class which we cant get hold of through friends.
However, one possible solution to this, is that we have a link to the application form which can be moved out in the public sections at those times when we are in need of a special class.
It depends Bob.
Re forum registration: When you're in a rush then I bet you'll invite them before they are on the forums - and you need me or another forum Administrator about to make the change in their ranking to give them SOG access, so it takes some planning. I still think it is best to do the forum registration up front me thinks and nobody else (that I am aware of) allows an application before registration.
Re the sponsors - why not ask the sponsor? We did, but we only bothered when the application was of interest. Yes it will be abused, but you asking a sponsor to make the application will stop a load of applicants too, so you might be hurting yourself.
Re the 'open all the time' - this is not a problem at all. An automatic application causes you no problems and no involvement - it also allows applicants to apply even when you are not recruiting the class, so you can return to the previous applications to look for a good when you need one in the future. All it needs is a simple post at the top of the public application section stating whether or not you are open or closed for recruitment, which classes you are recruiting and a statement tot he effect that applications for classes not being actively recruited will not receive a reply and will be held for future reference.
I think the reduction in work and ease of administration make the suggested way much easier.
TL.
good points indeed
how about using the old application system (modifed) with a bit of new things?, like the sponsor must also state were and how many times he partied with the applicant in question, in the application thread.
if we find out he lied helle get a "warning". after 3 "warnings" the right to sponsor is revoked from him (we can keep track of this in member issues). the sponsor must also /w or pm an officer that he is sponsoring the applicant in question.
ofcourse, the 4 week trail is still in effect
this way i think all the "creme de la creme" of both systems is used
Quote from: TeaLeaf;186386Yes it will be abused, but you asking a sponsor to make the application will stop a load of applicants too
To be honest, that is actually what I was hoping a system such as this would do. I believe, as said in the already linked post, that one of the reasons SOG started to fall apart the way it did (and this was way before TBC), was that we grew too big and ended up having too many members not having any kind of relation to anyone in the guild.
The only situation where we would actually
need another member, is for when we have a raid spot we can't manage to fill with people we already have. For these times, the application system could work exactly as the old one did. An application form could be made public in the "How to join SOG" section, and people could submit applications "the old way".
And also have in mind, that SOG will not aim to be (at least that's the impression I've gotten - somebody correct me if I'm wrong) anything close to as hard-core raiding-wise at it was during the last year, so hopefully it won't be often that we need to announce a class need public. Than I think we are far better off making totally sure that people really know the people the would have into the guild.
And the part about it taking time for people to get access to the forum - if the rule is limited to that they only must have registered an account to get invited, this is something the sponsor can inform his/here friend about, so that they do it during the week we use to evaluate the application.
Since things seems to have gotten a bit quiet, I'm just gonna continue the discussion arguing a bit with myself :narnar:
My main concern, is that we should somehow do something which makes the sponsor system a bit more reliable. I have been doing a bit more thinking the last day, and I've come up with an alternative suggestion:
The application form (some modified version as to what it looks like today) will at all times be available in the public section. For those times when we don't seek extra members for raiding, all applications without a sponsor (or a "weak" sponsor), will be moved pretty fast to a "on-hold" section, so we can look at them if we should need 'em at a later time. We will also explain to our members, that when they appear as a sponsor in an application, they are required to post in the application thread explaining how they know the applicant, why they would like him to join etc - failing to do so, will automatically lead to rejection of the application.
For those times that we are applying for a particular class, we will not demand a sponsor (but ofc we should prioritize applicants that have a good sponsor).
Also a thing that got to my mind: as we haven't planned to make any kind of raiding ranks (at least not yet), but just have the raids based on the ordinary sign-up system, I think we should make some kind of rule, so that friends of members joining when we don't have a class need doesn't automatically start occupying raiding slots.
One possible solution can be that initiate members will be last in the line when signing up for raids for their whole initiation period. This should of course not go when we recruit members to fill a specific raiding slot, as they are joining on the conditions that they will be raiding (but this shouldn't really be a problem either, as when this kind of people are recruited, there are a class need, which should make there be no queue for that specific class in a raid).
This way we get two things: firstly, we avoid many people joining just to get some easy access to a raiding spot, pushing away our long-time members. And secondly, people get a chance to show some dedication to the guild through other activities than raiding. What I mean is, that if somebody joins (again, this is mean for those that are invited as "friends of members"), if they can't be bothered to stay in the guild without raiding for some weeks, than they aren't caring enough about the guild - and that kind of members we can easily do without.
Did anything of this make any sense?
Eazy enough to do, make a rank for players that voiced intres in raiding, and give them priority. You will have to be carefull with the numbers though. Else you get the old guardian / defender crap again where guardians where always able to raid, and defenders where reserves, but due to high number unable to raid.
Id recommend setting up a raid core, possibly w/ reserves (1/2 maybe), depending on numbers (availibility attendance and such) and put members that didnt intrest themselfs in raiding in as a social member.
Afaik the idea is a 2 day raid week, which should limit the ammount of work youll have to put in, specialy if your using a sign up system.
I'm a bit tired of that we have to handle all requests for invites on a case-by-case basis. The last suggestion for a system has been here for a couple of weeks now without anyone bothering to comment on it, so one can perhaps assume that it's fine. Following is a recap of how it'll be:
The application form (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=sogapp) will be placed in the How to join us (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=152) section, and it should contain the following:
Character Name:
Level:
Class: (remember to add Shaman to the list)
Race: (remember to add Dranei to the list)
Remove the fields about membership category etc.Past Guild Affiliation:
Who is your sponsor? (Perhaps add a small comment here that the sponsor should be someone you know
good)
Who else do you know in the guild?Why do you want to join SOG(correct from SoG to SOG)
? Perhaps add to the end of the comment
raiding/PvP/social or something like that, just to give folks a hint aboutwhat we would like them to say there?
Anything else?All the following fields for Guardian/Defender can be removed. If we at some point find that we want to make raiding ranks of some kind, we can change the form again than.Some easy rules that should follow the application system:
- We put a sticky in the Applicants to SOG (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=172) section informing the members about the rules for applications:
- The only applications that will have a chance of going through the system without a sponsor, is in those cases where we have announced the need of a special class for raiding.
- If somebody are listed as a sponsor in an application and they fail to comment on the application (and this should be a comment saying how they know the applicant, why they want him/here to join etc, not just "yes, I sponsor him"), the application will automatically be denied.
- We leave the applications in the public section for 4 days, than we move them into our private area and give ourselves 3 days to comment further on it - this gives us a week processing time, which should be acceptable for all I think.
- When we start raiding, to avoid many friends of members joining to get an easy raiding spot, new members should be given absolutely lowest priority for raid spots for their whole initiation period (ofc an exception for those we invite to fill a class need should be made).
If people have any more comments on this, please speak now so we can get this thing out of the world. And if TL could be so kind and fix the chances in the application form, we could have it moved out in the public section withing a couple of days.
had a quick read trough it and i think we got a GO! :)
Gandalf is going to try to take a look at editing the web form this weekend.
TL.
Thanks TL - and Gandy :)
I'll see if I can write a little something to put in the members' section, as well as something for the how to join us section.
:blink: How did i miss this??
Sorry for the late response (:blush2:), but it looks great Bob. GJ.
ok, sorry about taking so long to do this. Anyway, it's done and ready for testing. Please check it out and let me know if there are any problems.
Cheers
Thanks G, we'll go take a peek!
TL.
One spelling correction found: Dranei needs to be Draenei
One minor amendment:
QuoteUse this form to apply for membership of SOG. All questions are compulsory. If certain questions do not apply to you then please either enter N/A in the box or select No.
I'll see if I can do any of these amendments myself.
Great work Gandalf! :worship:
TL.
Amendments made. If you folks have no other amendements and are happy with it then post there and I can move it out into the open.
TL.
Looks very good, thank you very much Gandalf :thumbsup:
I think it is ready to be published.
thats for the work, G2 ^_^
seems ok to me