I am looking to use a meta gem so took a look at the two main Skyfire Diamond meta gems that a mage might use and crunched some numbers.
Destructive Skyfire Diamond
+14 Spell Crit Rating and 1% Spell Reflect
Mystical Skyfire Diamond
5% on spellcast - next spell cast in half time
By my calcs the Destructive SKyfire Diamond would increase my damage by about 0.36% with an additional +1% spell reflect althought he value of this is difficult to quantify.
The Mystical Skyfire Diamond offers a 2.5% increase in damage.
Both cost around about the same, so I am trying to figure out why Blizzard made the disparity so huge as to my mind nobody would ever want to go for the Destructive Skyfire given these results.
Did I miss something?
TL.
i would want the destructive on my lock for pvp!! so uber :D i would guess :g:
Just out of interest, what do you see as the benefits compared to the Mystical?
TL.
When its '5% on spellcast' does that mean 5% less casting time?
No, that means that on casting a spell you have a 5% chance for a buff to proc which causes your next spell to be cast in 1/2 it's normal casting time.
Ah yes of course.. I read it as two different abilities :doh:
But with a 5% chance of proccing it doesn't happen that often does it? sounds like a lot of +spelldmg for those 5%?
and if it procks it also depends on the spell hitting the mob.
but i guess that 5% gem is nice fro pve stuff and the refleckt is good for pvp.
the proc rate is a bit dull.. 5% aint much imo so ide go for the crit and spell reflect
so G choses his gems/enchant trough the dull order from 1 to 10 :crazy:
what do you mean with that :S
i sortof reason in a diff way, i use what i like mostly. everyone made fun of me and called me nuts when i put lifesteal on tf (esp the righteous ppl), but after having a paste of the healing meters ide call them the idiots..
hehe mr crazy
just bored at work
Quote from: TeaLeaf;188584By my calcs the Destructive SKyfire Diamond would increase my damage by about 0.36% with an additional +1% spell reflect althought he value of this is difficult to quantify.
The Mystical Skyfire Diamond offers a 2.5% increase in damage.
Quote from: Gorion;188626the proc rate is a bit dull.. 5% aint much imo so ide go for the crit and spell reflect
Trying to figure out how you think the proc rate is dull. The choice is between two items, one with a 5% proc chance and the other with a 0.67% proc chance.
TL.
Maybe the intent of the gems is different?
Skyfire might be nice for caster tanks like pallies or even locks / shadow priests in specific encounters.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;188675Trying to figure out how you think the proc rate is dull. The choice is between two items, one with a 5% proc chance and the other with a 0.67% proc chance.
TL.
you didnt mention a proc on the destructive gem..
constant 0.6% crit and 1% spell reflect > a 5% proc that gives 50% haste on your next spell
imo
Quote from: Gorion;188722constant 0.6% crit and 1% spell reflect > a 5% proc that gives 50% haste on your next spell
The 5% * 50% cast time nets you a DPS increase of 2.5%.
(1 - ((3 * 19 + 1.5) / (3 * 20))) * 100% = 2.5%.
This well outweighs the crit chance and the spell reflect on the other gem. It's hard to quantify how much the spell reflect will increase your DPS, but it won't be much; somewhere between nothing and very little.
Now that I think of it, it can be a nice gem for PvP. 1% chance that an hostile caster owns himself :norty: .
are you forgetting boss and mob spell damage is Much more higher then player spell damage..?
plus, its a 5% proc rate, this doesnt mean it WILL proc 5 times in a 100 casts, and even if it did, i doubt 5 x 50% haste casts will be that beneficial, it could also be that it procs more then 5 times, but my point still stays, a 5% chance to get 50% haste does not > 0.60% crit and 1% spell reflect
you should also consider that the 0.60% crit will effect every spell you will cast, whilst the 50% haste will only effect a limited number of spells
dont base everything on equations, it aint always the right way!
Quote from: Gorion;188733you should also consider that the 0.60% crit will effect every spell you will cast, whilst the 50% haste will only effect a limited number of spells
dont base everything on equations, it aint always the right way!
The equations are pretty much always right. The chance to proc and the chance to crit are both just that, chances. Not feelings, but the laws the programmers design a trinket to follow.
So, we have a 5% proc and a 0.67% proc.
The 5% proc gives 2.5% extra DPS.
The 0.67% crit gives 0.36% extra DPS plus a 1% spell reflect.
Both are a chance.
But one chance is many times better than the other.
Both reflect an average proc over the long term.
2.5% extra dps > 0..36% extra dps imo, because the 1% reflect is so little used and therefore of neglibile value. When would a 1% reflect be worth it when you know it cannot be relied upon a sit is a 1% chance? It has a minor PVP use, maybe imo.
My question was not really which was more valuable (5% proc clearly is) but more why there is such a huge difference in benefits - I was wondering if my logic/math was incorrect.
TL.
No ofcourse the DPS increase will not be exactly 2.5% all of the time, but on average. It will even be more, since it also procs of all spells including instant casts; so it will even be more then 2.5% not less as you say. The same goes for the 1% chance to reflect a spell and the crit chance, so I don't know what you're trying to say with this :g: .
And I didn't forget that bosses to more damage. However the casters will generally not be hit by direct damage spells. That leaves just AoE and volleys, which don't hit that hard nor happen often. Just consider the simple fact that if everyone in the raid group would take the amount of AoE damage that is nessacary to make up that ~1.5% difference, it would be completely impossible for the healers to keep everyone up. ((1.5% / 1%) * the mage's DPS (800) * 25 = 30000 incoming DPS!).
The fact that the 5% chance to increase the casting speed of your next spell nets you a higher DPS increase on average then the crit and spell reflect on the other gem under every condition is undeniable. I don't see how anyone could question this :unsure: .
Although I agree with you that things are usually a bit different in practice; when analysing something that's related to WoW's game mechanics, theorycrafting is a good way to determain what's 'best'.
Edit: basicly what TL said in the above post.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;188743The equations are pretty much always right. The chance to proc and the chance to crit are both just that, chances. Not feelings, but the laws the programmers design a trinket to follow.
So, we have a 5% proc and a 0.67% proc.
The 5% proc gives 2.5% extra DPS.
The 0.67% crit gives 0.36% extra DPS plus a 1% spell reflect.
Both are a chance.
But one chance is many times better than the other.
Both reflect an average proc over the long term.
2.5% extra dps > 0..36% extra dps imo, because the 1% reflect is so little used and therefore of neglibile value. When would a 1% reflect be worth it when you know it cannot be relied upon a sit is a 1% chance? It has a minor PVP use, maybe imo.
My question was not really which was more valuable (5% proc clearly is) but more why there is such a huge difference in benefits - I was wondering if my logic/math was incorrect.
TL.
Your logic/math looks correct and it's pretty obvious from a caster's point of view which one is better in a long boss fight. The difference in benefits I don't understand myself either since the 5% proc rate gem would be better in both pvp and pve for a Caster. The only reason I could see someone take the other gem is if he doesn't like the random chances of procs. I guess you can just blame it on old crazy Blizzard.
Due to the triple nerf atm [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] should grant 15% possibility to gain 320 haste for 6 secs (maybe 4 again), but with an internal CD of 45 sec. http://www.wowwiki.com/Mystical_Skyfire_Diamond
Not a great proc definitly, so Ember and Chaotic become a nice choose imo.
Now, Chaotic http://www.wowwiki.com/Chaotic_Skyfire_Diamond is the one i'm using atm, grant +12 spell crit rating and +3% Critical Damage.
In raid this means that i'll do 3% more damage for 35% to 45% of the time, depending on auras/totems/spells.
On the other side Ember http://www.wowwiki.com/Ember_Skyfire_Diamond grants +14 spell dam and +2% Int. Since i've got 500 Int that would be 10 Int / 150 mana.
Is this gem worth of a try or not?
Has anyone lost a few time to recalculate the new Mystical damage increase?
Ty :)
The [item]Ember Skyfire Diamond[/item] is a kind of underwhealming imo. 10 int and a bit of +damage is not very much for a meta gem. Additionally +damage doesn't scale well.
I'd stick with the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamond[/item], which should net you a damage increase of between 2.13% (fire+Ignite) and 2.48% (arcane/frost), assuming a 40% critical strike chance. Crits also can cause stuff to proc, like the [item]The Lightning Capacitor[/item] trinket, so this gem can be slightly more beneficial in some cases.
The [item]Mystical Skyfire Diamond[/item] is a bit behind that. 6sec /(100% / 15% * (1.5sec to 3sec) + 45sec) * 20% haste = between 2.18% and 1.85%. Which will be slightly worse if you take casting lag and such into account.
Keep in mind that these numbers may not be exact, but I hope it helps.
amagad Sandrion is still around? :blink:
use 14 damage + 2% intellect metagem now on the basis that the activation requirements for th eother gems are now muhc more difficult to meet given that most mages have gone heavily down the red & yellow gem route.
TL.
The Capacitor in couple with [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34470) (ghhhh :dribble:) could create serious damage :boxing:...
I'll stick to Chaotic so :flirty: ty all :D
Wouldn't it be worth it to get two purple or green gems somewhere in your gear, so you can use the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamand[/item] instead of the [item]Ember Skyfire Diamond[/item]? It may be more valueable then 10 spell hit/crit or 12 +damage, including Ember's bonus :unsure: .
And yes Nef I'm still here :flirty: . I'm not online as much though, since I'm a bit bussy IRL.
Damage is worth more than Crit, so the trinkets mentioned will underperform others with good amounts of +damage generally.
Re the colour gems, haste > all atm, so yellow/orange is the flavour of choice. Worth far more then other stats, so it is not really worth going for blue with stamina or green (with what!) to get a meta gem that does less damge than the +14 damage & 2% int.
TL.
Hmm, I didn't think about haste gems; probably because I haven't followed recent changes closely enough. 10 spell haste is at least 0.7% damage (depending on how much you already have ofcourse). But that still leaves a 1.4ish% difference, of which I'm not sure Ember's bonus can fill :g: . Naturally it all depends on spec and gear, but I think the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamond[/item] will outedge the others in most cases.
Anyway, putting your data in Vontre's mage DPS sheet (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t10907-vontre_s_mage_dps_spreadsheet/)is probably the easiest way to find out what's best, in case anyone is interested. No point in guessing without specifics :rolleyes: .
Spell Crit = 22.08 spell crit rating per 1% crit, so the 12 crit rating gem gives a 0.54% improvement in chance to crit along with a 3% boost to all crit damage, plus a loss of haste or damage somewhere else in the system by having to match its socket requirements.
Haste = 15.7 spell haste rating per 1% increase in casting speed, so the sockets you get to use when not trying to fit the crit metagem requirements allow two more yellow haste gems, 10 haste each, so 20 haste total and an increase of 1.27% in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps.
So simplistically the choice is:
0.54% improvement in chance to crit along with a 3% boost to all crit damage
v
1.27% increase in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps
Using Lhivera’s Theorycraft-o-Matic (http://www.manoutoftime.org/staticpages/index.php/tcom) and a standard 8 x Fireball/1x Scorch rotation and my mage's stats this works out to about a 6 dps increase for the crit gem, or a 17 dps increase for the haste option ignoring the additional damage the haste option meta would give.
Assuming you have the mana to support the increased casting speed (and assuming you are already hit-capped) then the haste option is worth more than anything else, certainly for mages imo.
In general, for most casting classes and circumstances and assuming you are already hit-capped:
Haste > Damage > Crit (assumes you not arcane)
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;232846Haste = 15.7 spell haste rating per 1% increase in casting speed, so the sockets you get to use when not trying to fit the crit metagem requirements allow two more yellow haste gems, 10 haste each, so 20 haste total and an increase of 1.27% in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps.
You'll only need to lose 10 haste rating, if you swap two [item]Quick Lionseye[/item]'s for two [item]Forceful Seaspray Emerald[/item]'s. But the 'cheapest' thing to do is probably swapping two [item]Runed Crimon Spinel[/item]'s for two [item]Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst[/item]'s, since 10 haste will most likely be worth more then 12 +damage.
I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of recalculating your results using Lhivera's Theorycraft-o-matic again, with the stats from your most recent armory profile (543int, 185haste, 111hit, 319crit, 1244+firedmg). (I hope they're right).
With full buffs, I got 2033.99DPS as 'current' score and 2048.25DPS with the [item]Choatic Skyfire Diamond[/item], by replacing one red gem by a purple one (you already had a purple one is your shoulder slot for the gem bonus) or 2048.37DPS if you swapped one yellow gem for a green one. It's only a 0.7% increase, but it's still fairly nice. However if you would have had to drop two red gems the difference would have been a bit smaller (0,41% (red->purple) to 0.42% (yellow->green)).
The unbuffed results where a bit higher, but not by all that much.
You'll lose 11 or 12 int as well, but I think that's definately worth it.
P.S.: One thing that definately suprised me is that +6 spell damage is worth more then +5 haste rating; even with your stats. I expected it to be the other way around, since haste scales a lot better then +damage :g: . So I was wrong about that in my previous post.
Stats are not quite right, it was a 5 man set not my raid set, but close enough. Gems are in mid change, some are pre-2.4 and will be replaced in due course as stocks allow, so there is defintely some change there to the numbers. I have to say your results seem counter intuitive and contrary to the much debated EJ workings on their forum. Might be a bug in the Liv sheet?
TL.
I recalculated the difference manually to check if it's a bug or not, but it seems to be correct.
Haste:
(1 / ((1 + (180/1570)) * (1 / x))) - (1 / ((1 + (185/1570)) * (1 / x)))
(1 / 1.114... * x)) - (1 / (1.117... * x))
0.8971...x - 0.8945...x = 0.002857... ~= 0.2857%
Fireball damage (untalented):
(649 + 821) / 2 = 735
(((1244 / 3.5 * 3) + 735) / ((1238 / 3.5 * 3) + 735) - 1) / 100 = 0.2863%
Fireball damage (talented):
(649 + 821) / 2 = 735
((((1244 / 3.5 * 3) * 1.15) + 735) / (((1238 / 3.5 * 3) * 1.15) + 735) - 1) / 100 ~= 0.3024%
Thus 6 +damage is slightly better then +5 haste rating in this case. However haste scales a lot better then +damage, so the more you have the better it gets, where as for +damage it's the opposite (every extra point becomes slightly less usefull then the one before it). On the other hand haste also amplifies the effects of lag and such with an equal percentage as it does damage; so you'll need to go a bit over the break even point to see a 'real' benefit.
I have to say, this is totally unexpected for me as well.
By the way, it did forget to add the +12 crit rating of the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond to the calculations in my previous post (it didn't automaticly add it is you select the gem). So the difference between the two gems is a bit bigger.
Current fully buffed DPS: 2033,99
-Swapping 6+damage: 2056.61 (+1.1112%)
-Swapping 5haste: 2056.73 (+1.1118%)
-Swapping 12+damage: 2050.74 (+0.8235%)
-Swapping 10+haste: 2050.87 (+0.8299%)
Definately worth the upgrade. 0.8ish% is quite a considerable difference (provided that what the sheet says is correct).
I still think the haste is the right way to go for me, haste is on all the gear I am taking now in SP and it is building fast. Will do some more research, but I do not see the point in not putting more haste gems into my gear set in place of the current crit/blue gems. My ingame ping is 27ms, so I do not believe that aspect will cause a problem.
TL.
It's still true that, generally speaking, 1 haste > 1 +damage > 1 spell crit. But it all depends on how much of each stat you get per itembudget. Looking at the gems, the order of expensiveness is probably in the same as they're usefullness. Making what's best in a specific case completely spec and gear dependent.
But like you said, since SP gear is loaded with haste rating, and you'll quickly have a lot, it's probably the best way to go in the end.