right i was playing on the server, as i do, when someone has a :ranting2: at me for going past the bounderies onto a balcony on the map de_inferno. Now ok i know you're not supposed to go past bounderies, but it seems odd to me that you shouldnt be allowed on that balcony, i mean it is just litteraly on the sign, u go past the sign by just 1 meter. is this kind of "trespassing" really not allowed? it doesn't seem to be very tactical not to be able to use that balcony...
just want your thoughts on this.
Don't walk beyond the sign, it's there for a reason...
Ive always regarded the signs of a "point of no return" factum... Crossing is last chance, outside boundaries are mines, what happens if you walk in a mine field???? You die...
On Meathook, I wouldn't see it as too much of an issue but we have to be strict on Boomer as it's difficult enough to admin without having fuzzy bounderies. The balcony was always allowed on Inferno until the signs went up, but you can't show the sign floating in mid air outside the balcony so the wall had to be used as the limit.
though I do see your point in that being allowed up to the balcony (if it's the balcony I'm thinking of) but not the extra inch onto it seems a bit strange - could just be the only place the sign would fit nicely (you wouldn't see it on the railings ;)). You're def. not supposed to go jumping out the window, and it's unlikely you'd want to be out on the balcony as you're a massive target there most of the time. The more complex the map the harder it is to tag nicely with signs - use your head, remember what your objective is on the map, and you should be fine.
edit: ha!, beaten mid-post. As Whitey said it's a matter of control. If you're unsure ask in-game as the admins' fuses might be short after an hour on Boomer with an unruly mob :rolleyes:
I think it was me that told you not to step over the boundaries there...
As whitey said, On MH its not generally a prop, (not that i ever admin there :) ) But on Boomer, i have to say i run a somewhat 0 tolerance policy, step the line and boom. Its not to be a hardass or anything, but boomer can be hard to admin, and then there is no room for fuzzy boundaries.
Myself tend to be strict, maybe some think to strict. But some lets say we make that a grey zone where you can move over the sign to get out on the balch... then some will see it, and all the other signs turn into grey zones in their heads, so they end up thinking we can run a few feet over this mark..
But maybe im to strict about it
Thats my two cents..
ok fair enough, yes it was you :p
i did understand that you couldnt just put a floating sign which is why it was on the wall as apposed to in mid air, which is why i thought the balcony would have been fine to walk onto. Naturally you wouldnt walk on the baloncy when everyone was around, but to check the sides of the building for camping terrorists, or those who are walking around to building to stab you in the back.
its the same for the italy balcony, the one at the second house, although that one is more understandable as it gives the terrorist team a major advantage, it seems odd to me that this isn't part of the tactical way of playing css.
i will obey the oobrules, if you see me disobeying them just slap me, remind me, i may not have loaded the signs properly & forgotten (happens often, especially when you play on normal css servers).
oh btw on a seperate point, at the end of the round, i shot lee in both kneecaps for a little laugh, he understood it but then i got yelled at by soonjong :( is it a terrible crime to delibertly TA at the end of a round?
No delibarate TeamAttacking. Guests might think people do it on a regular base and join in.
She's right about warning you for that.
ok sorry my bad.
tbh sneaking out the balch to spot T's woulnt be use by anti terror team RL, as the balch would be a easy way to get clipped by a sniper, instead the windows would be used to spot t's with (and those are located within bounds)
TA is under no circumstances allowed, how would SJ know what was going on, she prolly just saw the TA chat message..
We encurage respect among the people that play and shooting a teammatein the kneecaps isnt really the way of showing respect, not just respect between the two of you, but how do you guess it looks for newcomers, newcomers which we are trying to show our values?
Yeah G you shouldn't team attack whatsoever deliberately, the thing is SJ warned you before i got the chance, she's pretty speedy with being so experienced, unfortunately i'm still learning at the moment. Also it meant you lowered my kevlar so i had to buy a new one next round. :ranting2: Don't think this is a personal thing however, we have to enforce the rules against everyone including dMw members.
TCS is easy. Would you shoot your mates in real life? No
Quote from: BlueBall;191805TCS is easy. Would you shoot your mates in real life? No
Dunno, been pritty close to trying to shoot some at times :narnar:
Quote from: Bastet;191809Dunno, been pritty close to trying to shoot some at times :narnar:
Hey you dont know me rl do you?
oh wait... doh.. he wasnt thinking about me!
ok well now i know the rules are really rules. sorry for having broken them in the past.
Quote from: ..G;191866ok well now i know the rules are really rules. sorry for having broken them in the past.
np m8 - you asked we advised - everyone is happy :)
I slayed Hektor on Port becuase he kept going just one foot out of bounds (as a CT through the warehouse doors opposite the T ramp). That one foot gave him an incredible extra field of fire.
He should have known better. I warned him, then he did it again so I slayed him. If he had continued to do it then I would have temp banned him.
It's hard enough to keep the pubbies in line - if we have to keep regulars in line too then we may as well hang up our booties and retire.
Like .G, it's fine to ask for clarification and to query certain things - a lively debate and two-way flow is why this community works so well :)
PEN
ok this isnt regarding bounderies anymore but what people believe to be frag hunting.
now this is what i believe to be frag hunting:
you do your own thing, go your own way, to get most kills, have no intention in persuing your objective.
however, where is the boundery between frag hunting and playing tactically, lets take a map such as chateau. now chateau has a million rooms, and a lot of hiding spots. I plant the bomb, or i assist in planting the bomb, and i then run off to neighbouring rooms to make sure they are clear. would you call that frag hunting? on a map such as chateau i find that the best way to not get killed is to have someone in each neighbouring rooms and so you know where people come from, rather than having the cts surround you and catch you by surprise.
another thing, now i do believe i was in the wrong and i was in fact frag hunting. this happened on compound, i was ct, and i was near the hostage building. suddenly, i hear ak shotsblue , and cross appears on radar, this is on the left of the hostage building facing the bigger building, and is out of bounds. there is a team mate with me, so i decide to leave him and investigate. i see a terrorist, he is well out of bounds, i decide to run after him and take him out before he was going to get slayed.
now lets assume he wasnt out of bounds, would it have been wrong to have gone to investigate + take out the terrorist that was present?
When you plant the bomb the objective becomes to not let the bomb get defused. You cannot do this from several rooms away therefore what you are doing would not be considered TCS - i wouldn't go as far as to say it was fraghunting but it's not TCS.
If you try to remeber what the objective is and then ask yourself if what you are doing can directly help the objective. If the answer is no then it isn't TCS.
Don't worry it takes ages to get a really good feel for how it plays and we have had lots (and I mean lots) of discussion about boundaries and good/bad places to be over the years.
if in doubt ask your teammates :)
I'm curious about this subject;
In my opinion I find that the strategy and methods used on Boomer and Meathook, are not really very tactical. Generally as Terrorist there are decisions made about where the Bomb is going ; "lets go to B", "Over the bridge to A". On the occasion a small handful will choose to go a different way from the majority of the team in order to distract the enemy. As CT, its "I'll go B/A" e.t.c. However there's never really very much co-ordination of the teams past this point. I know this this is simply a simulation of the "real thing" and that there are limits to how far you can make this reasonable.
Don't get me wrong, there have been some moments when we have used some extremely effective methods of "conquering" a map and the enemies, i.e. Dr Sadako's method of rushing as Terrorist on Kismayo and a few of the other custom maps. But I have never seen methods used where team members have been given specific locations to be positioned.
So just to take G's point, on Chateu, as Terrorists plant the Bomb rather than wandering around close proximity in the courtyard on the bottom floor hallways, could Terrorists be positioned in specific points. Guarding entry/exit points of the CT to cut them off. As long as the Terrorists wern't straying from their objectives and holding the position the "squad-leader" had set, wouldn't this be tactical?
Then to counter this as CT, they could designate specific spots to guard. Then through practice people would become more familiar with what does and doesn't work in specific situations. Players will be more inclined to think, "well if we follow this route, they could have them placed here....." "If we have two terrorists placed here it provides enough support for .. . .. ." "If we have CT's covering this sector we have enough time to ......" If you see what I mean.
Just an example:
Specific Map Tactics (http://fidosrevenge.com/cs/de_dust.html)
These are just holding positions for if the bombs planted or is down, but they can be adapted further.
I do accept that fact that this would be near impossible to implement on the Boomer server. This would be far too difficult for non-regulars to grip, or to follow. And at the same time, I accept that on CS Friday Nights people will not always want to follow rigorous tactics as they just want to relax.
However could a specific night not be set-a-side for people who want to practice serious tactics and TCS gaming? This would be extremely usefull for furthering peoples confidence in the game, their awareness of the TCS style and boost leadership, not to mention match tactics and style of play too.
I completely agree with the "out of bounds" limits and "frag-hunting" rules. None of these should be broken, and logically can't be broken. Obviously SL's can't just give orders like; "run around and shoot whatever's wearing grey". But implementing more complex strategies (in my opion only) will further peoples gaming by a mile.
Just an idea. :)
Edit: I also accept that as terrorist the overall objective is to not allow the bomb to be defused, but I don't think that you have to be on the lower floors or in the courtyard area(chatue as example) to do this. Also I agree you cant run off towards "B"'s direction.
What I have seen the most, and what annoys me the most (even though I am a CS newbie) is when people focus on fraghunting before the bomb has been planted. It might not be straying very far, but nonetheless covering and guiding the bomb-carrier to the site is top prio in my book. Hard to do, when you are out of sight of the carrier. I know, straying off a bit can sort of extend the range of clear area around the carrier, but when people do that some CT tends to find his way to the carrier, typically by just killing one guy and he has clear sight of the carrier. I would like sometimes, when carrying the bomb, to have closer cover. Something like at all time 2-3 players able to return fire when I am spotted. But okay, my 2c, as a CS noob. Does that sound so bad? :unsure:
Quote from: delanvital;192034What I have seen the most, and what annoys me the most (even though I am a CS newbie) is when people focus on fraghunting before the bomb has been planted. It might not be straying very far, but nonetheless covering and guiding the bomb-carrier to the site is top prio in my book. Hard to do, when you are out of sight of the carrier. I know, straying off a bit can sort of extend the range of clear area around the carrier, but when people do that some CT tends to find his way to the carrier, typically by just killing one guy and he has clear sight of the carrier. I would like sometimes, when carrying the bomb, to have closer cover. Something like at all time 2-3 players able to return fire when I am spotted. But okay, my 2c, as a CS noob. Does that sound so bad? :unsure:
:withstupid:
Spot on in my book
i completely agree with all comments made so far.
but blueball, back to the chateau thing, im not talking about several rooms away.
take bombsite B for example (the one near the wine cellar)
you have the top floor, the bottom floor, and 2 sets of stairs. lets imagine a situation where, its 5v5, 2 down, theres 3 of us left. I would see this as the maximum amount of friendlies inside the bombsite at one time, as its not too crowded at that point.
but even with 3 players, position 1 upstairs, at the flight of stairs going even further up when you have a view of the corridor going down to A. That person can spot a ct from miles away and warn the team so they can be ready for it.
Position the second player downstairs, inside the main hall (one with hole in wall). there are several pillars offering cover, whilst still having a good view of whats coming at you. you can also hear cts running from A and who would normally start walking at around that point.
the last player, eg bomb planter, can stay in the site. he can then warn the 2 other players if there are any cts who have infiltrated the site and are either a, attacking or b, defusing, the two players then can easily surprise and shoot the ct.
now i know im going far too in depth for the average game, but those tactical points im talking about are not far from the bomb, they are not several rooms away, they the next room, to run back to the bomb site doesnt give enough time for a ct to defuse.
of course... if you are solo, or with another player, then you should both stay in the site, for obvious reasons.
for delanvitals, i agree, its nice to have support, i generally try to stick with the bomb carrier, unless i see he has sufficient support in which case i either stay a bit further back, or take a different route (eg dust2, take a short as apposed to A long, or A long as apposed to A short), or i simply rush it and clear the area for the bomb carrier. from the games i've played, there has always been support for the bomb carrier. remember, especially if you've played Age of Empires (catapult vs army), its not always a good idea to be close up, a spray will result in someones death if not more, as bullets will easily find their way to someone.
in a 5on5 i wouldnt dream of doing my own thing unless i was instructed to be a bait.
(sorry, i get carried away with tactics, i think i owe my passion for strategy to AoE)
I'm curious about this subject;
In my opinion I find that the strategy and methods used on Boomer and Meathook, are not really very tactical. Generally as Terrorist there are decisions made about where the Bomb is going ; "lets go to B", "Over the bridge to A". On the occasion a small handful will choose to go a different way from the majority of the team in order to distract the enemy. As CT, its "I'll go B/A" e.t.c. However there's never really very much co-ordination of the teams past this point. I know this this is simply a simulation of the "real thing" and that there are limits to how far you can make this reasonable.
Don't get me wrong, there have been some moments when we have used some extremely effective methods of "conquering" a map and the enemies, i.e. Dr Sadako's method of rushing as Terrorist on Kismayo and a few of the other custom maps. But I have never seen methods used where team members have been given specific locations to be positioned.
So just to take G's point, on Chateu, as Terrorists plant the Bomb rather than wandering around close proximity in the courtyard on the bottom floor hallways, could Terrorists be positioned in specific points. Guarding entry/exit points of the CT to cut them off. As long as the Terrorists wern't straying from their objectives and holding the position the "squad-leader" had set, wouldn't this be tactical?
Then to counter this as CT, they could designate specific spots to guard. Then through practice people would become more familiar with what does and doesn't work in specific situations. Players will be more inclined to think, "well if we follow this route, they could have them placed here....." "If we have two terrorists placed here it provides enough support for .. . .. ." "If we have CT's covering this sector we have enough time to ......" If you see what I mean.
Just an example:
Specific Map Tactics (http://fidosrevenge.com/cs/de_dust.html)
These are just holding positions for if the bombs planted or is down, but they can be adapted further.
I do accept that fact that this would be near impossible to implement on the Boomer server. This would be far too difficult for non-regulars to grip, or to follow. And at the same time, I accept that on CS Friday Nights people will not always want to follow rigorous tactics as they just want to relax. Just to add another point; this may be pretty tough to administer with too few players as-well. Although at the same time it could be adapted for smaller groups.
However could a specific night not be set-a-side for people who want to practice serious tactics and TCS gaming? This would be extremely usefull for furthering peoples confidence in the game, their awareness of the TCS style and boost leadership, not to mention match tactics and style of play too.
I completely agree with the "out of bounds" limits and "frag-hunting" rules. None of these should be broken, and logically can't be broken if tactics are sued correctly. Obviously SL's can't just give orders like; "run around and shoot whatever's wearing grey". But implementing more complex strategies (in my opion only) will further peoples gaming by a mile.
Just an idea. :)
I agree with a lot of what Exodus said, and do try to defend the bomb with my life, smoke it flash it etc.
I always think if its 1 vs 1 and the bomb is ticking as a T its my job to let it explode rather than kill the last CT, am I wrong ?
Like the idea of live tactics lesson........
Quote from: Sithvid;192044I agree with a lot of what Exodus said, and do try to defend the bomb with my life, smoke it flash it etc.
I always think if its 1 vs 1 and the bomb is ticking as a T its my job to let it explode rather than kill the last CT, am I wrong ?
Like the idea of live tactics lesson........
You are correct in that "a terrorists job is to defend the bomb with his/her life". Besides the only thing you lose is your weapons and it ensures you team it's victory. :)
indeed, and if you want to be selfish, doesn't add to your death count, and it gets you 3 "kills"
Quote from: Exodus;192040I'm curious about this subject;
In my opinion I find that the strategy and methods used on Boomer and Meathook, are not really very tactical. Generally as Terrorist there are decisions made about where the Bomb is going ; "lets go to B", "Over the bridge to A". On the occasion a small handful will choose to go a different way from the majority of the team in order to distract the enemy. As CT, its "I'll go B/A" e.t.c. However there's never really very much co-ordination of the teams past this point. I know this this is simply a simulation of the "real thing" and that there are limits to how far you can make this reasonable.
..................................(quote trimmed)...............
Just an idea. :)
Think its a very good idea myself, had a few good games were similar tactics were used to great effect, I personally would like to see more of this :)
Other than matches where the SL calls the shots, the person with the bomb calls the tactics (unless they're being quiet and some loadmouth like me might call it). If you have the bomb and want to try something different, please do. Call it early and make sure the team knows the plan. Good comms are probably one of the most important things during an attack/defence so use them wisely.
When guarding the sites, try to make sure you have a good split between both sites and call your position at the start of the round. That way if there are holes in your defence someone can fill them and if you die before you can say anything, your team mates will at least know where you were. Make use of the radar, you can see where your team mates are looking so no point everyone in the same location looking at the same thing....
There's another funny thing.
Sometimes the bomb calls it and rushes upfront, not a good idea. You're teamm8s should be in the bombspot first and cover while you plant. Various times I have played and the bomb was being planted noone coverd the bombplanter, I allways try and stay within a few feet to really cover him.
There are also people hanging back when the bomb calls it just to pick up easy kills off.
A little while when I played I called "B"rush on dust2 and someone said; I'll make a decoy at long "A".
Me; I call "B"rush, didn't mention anything at "A"...
Quit simple, if the bomb can be planted I get shot before it, I did what I was supposed to die, make sure the bomb gets planted...
Nothing more annoying then when you plant the bomb you get shot by a CT because the rest of your team is hiding in that good gitspot to cover the bombspot...
Quote from: ..G;192038remember, especially if you've played Age of Empires (catapult vs army), its not always a good idea to be close up, a spray will result in someones death if not more, as bullets will easily find their way to someone.
Or more than one could get killed by a nade. My point is not specifically really close cover as in functioning as a wall (even though that is good sometimes when planting or fighting your way there). No, point is, at least have people close enough to a) take over the bomb if you get wasted b) more than one in a positition to return fire on the aggressor (is it just me who loves to fight alongside others? I love to sort of fight my way forward teaming up with someone) which increases the likelyhood of winning the duel and c) cover/line-of-fire-cover for the carrier.