so, we started going to Kz on a regular basis, and i think its for the best to set some rules/guildines
copy paste from the old rules raid with some edits:
(these rules have been discussed and agreed by the Officers) INVITE RULES- Invites will be handed out at 19.45 Server time.
- You must be online prior to invites if you are attending a raid.
- Raid members are expected to be outside the instance at 19.45 server time.
- If you are not online when the invites start, your spot will be given to someone else. You will also get lowest priority for the next raid you sign up for, regardless if it would be your turn according to the rotation system.
RAID RULES- All raiders should be attuned to Karazhan
- CTraid or Ora2 + Ktm threat meter + BigWigs are a must. These must be kept to the most updated versions.
- All raiders should start the raid at 100% durability. Anyone with a durability less than 100% and without Honoured reputation with The Violet Eye will be asked to repair.
- If your class needs reagents then you should come to the raid with a reasonable supply. This is usually assumed to be a minimum of 20 Arcane Powder/Shards/Candles etc.
- Going AFK without telling a Raidleader will result in a kick.
- If the Raidleader is not informed you are AFK, you are asumed to be ready, ready checks might happen at key moments, but don't count on them to show raidleaders you are AFK. - This will result in a kick
- If the order to repair is given failure to repair in 5 minutes after the command has been given will result in a kick. (portals and summoning back via meeting stones will be supplied)
- Whisper a Raidleader (And gain an acknowledgement) if you need to leave before the end of the raid.
- Join your class channel by typing for example: "/channel SoGMages". The channels are: SoGMages, SoGPriests, SoGWarriors, SoGDruids, SoGWarlocks, SoGRogues, SoGPaladins and SoGHunters. Also Healers must join SoGHealers.
- For the moment, it is not allowed to switch places with other members in the raid for loot from a specific boss.
- Mains will get priority over alts. Alts will only be allowed in the raid if there is a class need.
- Full members will get priority over initiates.
LOOT RULES- Raid performance is a priority - Specs will recieve priority on gear.
- If you are rolling for an item that will not be used in the raid, you must say on TS and /RA prior to rolling. - Failure to do this will result in a 2 week suspension from raids.
- Officers have the right to force an upgrade on any member of the raid if we think it is needed.
- If there are 2 raid members that an item is going to be forced upon, a roll between them is issued, and the lowest one will win the item.
- Honoured reputation is required before you roll on loot. This is easily achieved. - If an item is going to be Disenchanted, a roll for non-Honoured raid members will be issued.
- Only One item per raid is allowed to be taken by the same person, If there is an unwanted item, someone who already looted something may roll again.
INSTANCE SPECIFIC RULES Karazhan- All Soul Essence's will be traded to Master Looter prior to any zoning out after raid end.
- If you were switched with another member in mid-raid, you must trade your Soul Essence's to the Master Looter prior to zoning out.
Looks mostly good Gorion :thumbsup2:
In the raid rules:Perhaps the following could be added:
- Mains will get priority over alts.
- Full members will get priority over initiates.
The point about the class channels is perhaps not necessary, seeing that there is seldom more than two persons in a class? At least not while we're in Karazhan...
Loot rules:Looks good I think. It is perhaps a bit harsh to say that taking an item for an off-spec without telling will result in a ban - it could be moderated to perhaps at least a warning, and 2nd time a ban or something like that?
About giving rep a priority - could be a good idea. But keeping the limit to honored vs. friendly - that will require people to have been there some times before they will get a chance on the rare goodies, but it won't take the forever either (as you don't need that many runs to get to honored).
When we make a set of loot rules, we should perhaps also look into having a rotation system ready. Now there aren't that many that have been signed up for the last raids, but we should try to offer a fair chance for everybody to attend (taking that those we contact about it manage to improve their dps/gear/etc).
re :
Mains will get priority over alts.
alts will only be allowed to attend on class need
Re channels:
Suggest including a SOGhealers channel as there is a lot of coordination needed in healing.
Re Loot:
Zero sum DKP.
TL.
Most of those rules look fine, missing invite rules though and i think those are the most important at the moment.
"It is not allowed to switch places with other members in the raid for loot from a specific boss. - Chess event might be an exeption to this?"
First of if we will still only have 1run in the future it was my idea to actually do this. People would sign up for specific bosses they needed. Everyone would be expected to be able to attend the whole run and changed in as needed for other boss kills but we would try to fit everyone that needed the boss first then fill up with others. It is an extreme waste having to DE an item because the person that needed it was standing outside in a queue. This will also make it people whine less about long queues seeing as they know they will get some boss kills.
For the loot rules add that if someone is passing on an upgrade because he wants another item and noone else wants and needs the item the item will be forced on him/her. If 2persons are doing the same it will be rolled for lowest roll gets it :D. DEing an item because some idiot want 1upgrade more then another is pure waste though some exception might be applied, f example me passing on chest upgrade because i would get the Arena Chest Piece 2days later or that it is a very marginal upgrade and he doesn't want to spend money on gems and enchants. If we go with a DKP system this rule is needed while the others aren't though i don't really see the need for DKP here.
Also about the repaired part i think it should be allowed that people can come and repair after attunemen if they are honored. This shouldn't really happen but forcing someone to go back to a city and delay the start of the raid instead of starting and repairing 20minutes later is waste of time.
Only reason for a permanent ban should be Gkick, being suspended from raids for a week or 2 is ok but shouldn't be done often.
Lastly i want to point out that i have been raiding with my alt the whole time. Drazila is still my main though i don't really look at them as main and alt but rather 2characters i play. And i would have raided with drazila if our healer situation allowed for it.
re ten/draz, that would fall on class need
re char switching on bosses is a nice idea when were more established in there
force item looks nice too
re the repair, maybe.. but afaik its your duty to be fully setup for a raid you are attending, having the right amount of mana/hp pots + food and bieng fully repaired etc
So, as we now can consider ourselves pretty well going in Karazhan, should we perhaps try to get these rules posted as soon as possible?
I guess members want some answers - I've been asked questions about loot distribution and raid rotation, and now that even more people are starting to get attuned, it is important that we get a system going.
It does not need to be complicated at all - all of the rules suggested above are reasonable and pretty straight forward. Looks like we pretty much agree on most of the stuff as well, so I guess it's only to make a final draft and getit out?
Add BigWigs boss mod to the list of requirements.
We always post the use of the item in raid chat when we want an item - for example {item} PVP or {item} grinding or {item} PVE raid to help us get an idea of priority. We also sometimes force an upgrade where it is sensible for that class and we would otherwise appear to DE a decent bit of loot.
TL.
Bump :)
just been editing out stuff, re read pls
Looks good Gorion :thumbsup2:
Just two questions:
Quote from: Gorion;192529- If you are not online when the invites start, your spot will be given to someone else. - If a member roation is in effect, you will also loose the next raid spot.
I'm not 100% sure what you meant by that last sentence there... Who will have to pass on a raid spot due to the rotation system is decided when approving sign-ups at the sign-up site.
I think I get what you mean, but it seems like that sentence is just a bit confusing. Don't really think it's necessary to mention it there either?
Quote from: Gorion;192529- CTraid Core + Ktm threat meter + BigWigs are a must. These must be kept to the most updated versions. - Members using Ora2 Must have CTRaid Core installed aswell.
Is CTRaid Core really necessary when you have ORa2? I've used only ORa2 for the last month or so, and haven't noticed any problems with that...?
q1: i mean if that fex: you were approved for last nights raid and didnt show up in time, and we have say 15 members signing up everytime with 3 of your specific class and only 2 are needed in a raid, you will loose yesterdays spot cos you were late, and the next raids spot
q2: some ppl stating they have ora2 have been blanked out from certian queries, such as, /radur /razone /raitem and the /raready and its annoying the crap out of me. so that would solve the problem
#1: ok, got you now. Perhaps change it to something like this than?
- If you are not online when the invites start, your spot will be given to someone else. You will also get lowest priority for the next raid you sign up for, regardless if it would be your turn according to the rotation system.
#2: I experienced what you described there once - but when I updated to the latest version of ORa2 the problems disappeared.
What I did notice though, was that having both CTRa Core and ORa2 at the same time was very annoying: I got an extra raid interface, double vote messages, double timers and more.
So I don't think this should be required - however, ORa2 must in the same way as CTRa be the very last version. This should be satisfactory.
Or has anyone else experienced problems with it, or heard about what can cause/fix it?
updated #1
still need more info on #2
Quote from: Gorion;195415still need more info on #2
Well, I personally don't have any more info on it. Other than that I know it worked flawlessly for me, and that I than had the latest version (33796), and that it was very annoying to have both CTRa and ORa2...
Perhaps some of the Genesis folks have any experience about this from their raids?
simple I haven't had the CTRA core since TBC came out and i would rather say everyone should have oRA then everyone should have CTRA.
Btw oRA is made from CTRA and has the CTRA core in its code. That is why everyone that has oRA give a CTRA version as well on a version check
Also i would say that BigWigs should not be needed if people have Deadlyboss mod.
Personally we like BigWigs better than DBM atm. Timers seem to be a little more plentiful and helpful.
Re oRA2. If you have it, you have no need for CTRA. oRA2 answers all /radur, /razone, /raitem etc queries etc.
TL.
ora2 arranged,
anything else? was thinking about getting this out today
Looks fine by me. Just get it out there asap :)
looks ok from here too.. :)
Quote from: Gorion;196022added a new rule in the invite section - forgot about that one
I quess that one was the one you were aiming for?
Quote from: Gorion;195987(these rules have been discussed and agreed by the Officers)
INVITE RULES- If you are not accepted into a raid, and you are queued, you Must stay online for the lenght of that raid aswell.
I do not agree with that - at least not the way it is formulated there. That is kind of the point with a sign-up system, that people should get the opportunity to tell whether they will be raiding or not.
Of course, if people would like to have the chance to get in the raid, they should remain online in the queue, but I don't think we should force people to just "hang around" for no particular reason.
I can see some cases where it would be sensible to have such a rule (e.g. earning the right to be in the next raid due to a rotation system), but I think you should remove it from the list as of now and at least let us discuss it before you publish it.
Quote from: Bob;196039I do not agree with that - at least not the way it is formulated there. That is kind of the point with a sign-up system, that people should get the opportunity to tell whether they will be raiding or not.
if they signed up for the raid, that means theyre available to raid untill they cancel their singup, there is no reason for a queue unless theyre online. or reachable on TS.
and lets face it, no one uses ts while playing anymore
if an aceppted raider is dced for a long time, or a kick is issued - raid leaders turn to the queue. if the members in the queue are not online to do that, the raid might be called off.
that in my view is unacapptable, it used to be that way, it should remain that way.
I can see both sides of the argument atm. The problem is that this is a stick with no carrot. In Genesis we have a queue and people must be available to zone in - but this does not mean they cannot go do something else in the mean time, so long as they can be reached via TS (if they're playing another game for example) or in game on their main or an alt. I was in a queue the whole of Thursday, but offline for most of the night, but they knew how to get hold of me and I could zone in when and if needed. The carrot is that I got full DKP for being in the queue the whole night even though I was not in WoW.
It is much more difficult to make demands of players when they get nothing in return and the raid is run on a more sociaql than formal basis.
I would suggest changing your loot system to provide the carrot, then having an accompanying stick works well. The way we did it in the past worked sort of ok, but was not perfect and that's why Genesis do it differently now. Might be something for SOG to consider?
TL.
Quote from: Gorion;196042if they signed up for the raid, that means theyre available to raid untill they cancel their singup, there is no reason for a queue unless theyre online. or reachable on TS.
So as long as people cancel their sign-up if they see they don't get a spot in the raid, that would be all fine?
As Saori commented on his sign-up at the sign-up site:
"Well, since im queued up i think i will spend the sunday evening at cinema with GF. Good luck in Kaz, have fun!"Would you really make him sit in front of his computer the whole evening, waiting for a spot in the raid which most likely won't even happen, instead of going to the cinema with his GF?
Yes, he signed up in the first place, but as TL said, as long as we don't have any kind of "carrot" to make it worth while staying in the queue, it wouldn't be fair to force people to be there.
As we don't use DKP in Kara, we can't use that as a carrot. And I do not think we should introduce DKP in Kara just to have that carrot - it has worked out very well with loot distribution this far without it.
The only possible "carrot" I see we can offer at the moment, is if we make a structured rotation system. Than we could say that to get one credit in the rotation system (meaning that you will be guaranteed a spot in the next raid), you are required to be online, or at least reachable on TS, so that you can join the raid if needed during the evening.
you aint getting my point mate,
aslong as he signups for a particular raid he should be online or reachable via TS, regardless if he gets aceppted or queued. If he wanted to go out having fun with his GF, he shouldnt have signed up in the first place.
there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.
there might be some extreme cases were a certain signed up person has to really do something extremely important, but going out having fun doesnt fall into that area, since he was going nowere if he was aceppted
we have to draw a line somewere, and thats exectly were it should be drawn down. we also need to add another rule that states, it aint possible to retire your signup on the day of the raid, or after the approval of raid members.
it might be harsh, but its time to get the hat on and take a stand, or this will be abused of
Quote from: Gorion;196068aslong as he signups for a particular raid he should be online or reachable via TS, regardless if he gets aceppted or queued. If he wanted to go out having fun with his GF, he shouldnt have signed up in the first place.
Look at it the other way. What if we only had 9 persons signed up for a raid, and the reason why Saori didn't sign up was that he wanted to spend the evening with his GF if he didn't get to raid. But because of your strict rule, he would risk having to sit in front of his computer a whole evening, doing nothing but waiting for a possible spot, and because of this he didn't sign up at all. Result: no run happened, because we weren't enough people.
Quote from: Gorion;196068there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.
We are a social raiding guild. As far as what is the members duties, I believe that is to sign up for a raid if you
want to raid, and to be in time and stay for the whole raid if you get a spot. It could also be sensible to have the members cancel their spot in the queue if they don't plan on being online during the evening.
If we were to add some kind of rule to those in the queue, we could say that everybody had to be online for when the invites go out. This would cover the case where somebody approved to raid doesn't show up. Anything more than this would be totally unfair to the members in my opinion.
Quote from: Bob;196072We are a social raiding guild. As far as what is the members duties, I believe that is to sign up for a raid if you want to raid, and to be in time and stay for the whole raid if you get a spot. It could also be sensible to have the members cancel their spot in the queue if they don't plan on being online during the evening.
read again:
there should be no carrot to make you do your duty and keep your word given when you signup, it is your responsability to do your job and keep your word.
we also need to add another rule that states, it aint possible to retire your signup on the day of the raid, or after the approval of raid members. youre misunderstanding everything
Quote from: Gorion;196075youre misunderstanding everything
I am not misunderstanding
anything! I see that you have a very different belief on what we should expect of commitment from our members than what I have, but I understand you perfectly fine.
I still believe, that the way SOG is taking on raiding, you can not in my opinion expect anyone to spend 4-5 hours just sitting in front of their computer waiting for a possible spot - which also most likely will never happen.
How many times since we started raiding have we been relying on having people in the queue to fill up an empty spot? Not too often. And I would also guess that the few times it has happened (and will happen in the future), there will most likely be somebody online who can take the spot.
But the bottom line of my argumentation is that it is totally out of proportions to force people to be in the queue for a whole evening if they won't get
anything at all in return for it.
We are as far away from a hard-core raiding guild as you can get, and with that follows a very casual style of playing, meaning, that if people get a spot, they should be there on time and for the whole rad, be repaired and potted up etc - but that is pretty much it.
The difference between the two of you is in the wording only I believe.
People can sign up in the hope of being approaved for the raid. You might have some people not approved who might then go to the cinema.
You might then also have a list of people in the queue on the night.
The two are separate and if you look at it that way you agree with each tother.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;196080People can sign up in the hope of being approaved for the raid. You might have some people not approved who might then go to the cinema.
You might then also have a list of people in the queue on the night.
Yes, that is what I mean at least. If that's Gorion's opinion as well, than there is no problem :)
There has been at least one instance when I have gone out with my gf at short notice after queing with Lucian (and forgetting to cancel). Tbh, I wouldn't expect any reward for doing nothing.