I guess you've all seen the threads Saori made about heroic runs ([thread=21196]first thread[/thread] & [thread=21205]sign-up thread[/thread]).
The initiative taken by Saori should be much appreciated - we want members dedicated to get things together to increase guild activity. However, I think he at this point went a bit too far by making that sign-up site - at least without asking us about it first.
I took the liberty of writing him a PM, and I think we should have a (quick) discussion around it, as it's an important matter. If you think I was out of line sending that PM, just say so and I'll send him another apologizing and asking him to forget it. It's important however, that we get to some kind of "official" opinion on this before it gets out of hand.
Quote from: BobHi Saori
We haven't had a chance to discuss the matter yet in the private officer's forum, so this is just to let you know there will be a discussion around it. And naturally, this is for now my view alone, but I believe it is in line with what us officers in general have discussed earlier.
I also thought it was best to take this via PM, at least for starters, as I don't want to start a public discussion that might seem negative towards you - cause that is not my intention at all.
First, don't get me wrong, your initiative to get together some heroic runs and increase the guild activity is very much appreciated. However, it would have been appreciated if you gave us a bit of a heads up on what you were planning, just so we could have a chance to comment on it before you made it public.
It is not because we don't want guild members to take initiative and control over things like heroic runs etc, but we do have a kind of overall plan on how we would like the guild to move forward. That is for instance why we stopped using the sign-up site for the official guild Kara raids, as we have been a bit concerned over low activity here on the forums. Than, when things happen that kind of go "in the opposite direction" of that plan, members might get a bit confused on what's going on.
There is no need to do anything about the sign-up site or anything else right away, just let things be the way they are for now. I'll try to get back to you shorty as I've had the chance to gather some more thoughts from the other officers as well.
Until than, take care and see you around :)
regards
Bob
totally agreed, already tried to tell him "around the nut" way but it fell on deaf ears
An alternative: let him use the site, manage it, but disassociate it from SOG. He could open it up via the Aszune forum or somewhere for a lot more runs than just with SOG, making the badges easier to get, and progress faster.
The issue might be: do we want to be associated with this? Answer for me is yes, if I was a lot freer than I currently am I would be using it to sign up. Do we want initiative from members? Yes. Do we want things to happen without our knowledge? No. Do we wish Saori had offered us the choice first? Yes. Can we force him to remove the site? I don't think it would be fair, or appropriate...
just let him b imo.
he will soon tire of running the signup site and just go back to trying to organise them for the forums
he wont give up so easily, hese annoyingly headstrong
Ignoring him isn't a good option I think - that could just as well make us look as assholes that don't care about nor appreciate members trying to help out (even if it's done in the wrong way) with the guild. However, if he doesn't get much participation from the other members on the site (which I honestly believe he won't), I think it'll all just go away in time. Still, we should try to approach this in a way that doesn't make him look bad, and at the same time get things the way we want (as in these kind of things being done inside our forum, or at least approved by us).
What Lucian suggested, letting him run the site (e.g. through the Aszune forum) but disassociate SOG from it: sure thing, could do - we can't really deny him to set up a site like that. However, no matter how it's done, it will still be associated with SOG - and I don't think it's something we should be associated with. Anything of this matter should, if at all, be run through our one and only official sign-up site.
Another thing could be to discuss how utterly silly it is to think that setting up a heroic run really needs a sign-up site, and that it will be easier that way compared to a poll...
Also, the way his sign-up site is set up (and the first posts he has made there (check it out (http://heroicsilveroakguardians.uniz.net/index.php))), it will for outsiders look like something which is run by us, and I don't think we want that...
Basically, what I believe we should do: send him a PM telling him that we appreciate him taking the initiative, but if he want to do something like that, he should do it from out forum (in the same way as the ordinary raid sign-up). We can't tell him what to do with that web site, but we do not want SOG associated with it.
Formulated in a nice way of course, so he doesn't feel (too) bad about it.
And until we have reached some kind of consensus here, I think the officers should restrain to register on his site. Just so people don't notice it and think we are with the idea or anything.
Just got Saori's answer to my PM:
Quote from: saoriHi Bob, thank you for your comments and your suggestions. Dont be concernd about me feeling something negative about your comments, it sok, I like constructive and positive comments about my thoughts and ideas.
First of all let me say that this wasnt intended to go against officers policies or idea of how to run the guild. I'm not a SOG officer, im not involved in the officers matters and due to i don't have any idea of what is going on in the guild.
Said so, i thought about this iniciative of an effor to get something running in our beloved guild apart from our 2 weekly raid nights to Kara.
I understand that officers may had want to have some advance on what i was planning, maybe it would be better to had told the officers before making it public, my wrong at that point.
I understand that officers have a plan for SOG, and as i said before, this wanst pupossed to go against that plan. Officers are concerned about low activity in the forums, but (in my case at least) im also concerned about low activity in general in the guild. I mean, two days before, from 20:00 to 22:30 only Crystaline, Peukie and me where online, only 3 memebers of a guild of about 120 memebers (dont know the "real" number of active members since the large number will be full of alts). And it wasnt just 2 days ago, i had checked that in general, there is only an average of 20 memebers online of our guild each day, and that in the best of cases!!!
I seriously think that things are going low in SOG. As Gorion stated me before, we are not hardcore anymore, and I understand that, but I have the strange sensation that SOG has become a "passive" guild and I hate to have that sensation. Had discussed this with other members and i know im not alone in this feeling, thats why I took the iniciative to make some improvement with our gameplay, within SOG and that will not affect the "plan" of the officers.
At this moment no Heroic runs are ever made in SOG, maybe some casual ones from time to time, but nothing else. I had spend the last 2 weeeks asking everyday in the GChat if someone want to join to an Heroic, and allways the same answers "no, im looging off soon, i cant, whatever" and allways the "lack" of members available to do something. So in the end just a couple will like to join and obvioulsy the run never happens.
Since the recruitment was reopened again, how many new members had joined our ranks? 5? more? Recruitment was opened more than 1 month ago, am i wrong? At this rate we will have people to fill RG2 and a possible 25 man raid for next year, and in the while what are we supposed to do? Just seat and wait? Farm primal fires to get an epic mount? (btw big G, i have already your 500g ready to give you back, many real thanks for borrowing the gold).
Am i wrong about this? I dont know what you guys think about this, I mean, I had never been involved in the guild matters and whereabouts, so maybe im missleading something or missunderstandign something since my lack of knowledge of guild managment.
But what i know is that i want to do something, that i want to have fun, that i want to have it with the good friend that i have in sog, and that i want to try something new, and the best i can do without messing around with officers thingies and plans is Heroic runs.
We can try to make this together in a positive way, try to build some more activity within our guild, push up recruitment, and try to improve things a little. its a nice chance to do it and i think that comes in the appropiate time since, im my oppinion, memebrs are starting to get bored of SOG or maybe just bored of WoW. :)
Looking for reading some more feedback of you guys, take care,
see you son,
Don't have time to comment on it right now, and I'll be a bit busy the rest of the day, so can't promise I'll be able to add something before tomorrow or perhaps even Sunday.
He has a point, maybe we should/could embrace this and give him rights to the real sign up site to make it more official.
Guess I was right then :P I think SOG needs it...
we never said we didnt need it, what we said is that we didnt like the way it was executed and without being told anything about it @ luci
It would be daft to do that imo. It goes completely in the opposite way to what you decided two meetings ago and reaffirmed last meeting.
If you change your mind and want a heroic sign up site, you already have one. Why have another - that's the worst of all possibilities.
TL.
I agree with the basic points from his PM - we do need some more activity. We can say that we greatly encourage him to organize runs, but we would strongly prefer that he used the forums for sign-ups in the same way we do for raids.
We could e.g. say that we currently are in an evaluation period for this way to sign up for raids (wasn't it a month or so?), so until than he should use the forums for heroic sign-ups as well. If we when this period is over and we find that it would be more useful to go back to the sign-up site, we could discuss whether he perhaps should get access to use that as well?
I think if we present it to him this way, it would be much easier to persuade him to use the forum - for now at least. And if also he sees that it goes smooth doing it this way, he'll perhaps even be satisfied with this when/if we go back to the sign-up site.
Quote from: Bob;209067I agree with the basic points from his PM - we do need some more activity. We can say that we greatly encourage him to organize runs, but we would strongly prefer that he used the forums for sign-ups in the same way we do for raids.
We could e.g. say that we currently are in an evaluation period for this way to sign up for raids (wasn't it a month or so?), so until than he should use the forums for heroic sign-ups as well. If we when this period is over and we find that it would be more useful to go back to the sign-up site, we could discuss whether he perhaps should get access to use that as well?
I think if we present it to him this way, it would be much easier to persuade him to use the forum - for now at least. And if also he sees that it goes smooth doing it this way, he'll perhaps even be satisfied with this when/if we go back to the sign-up site.
What the bob says makes sense, make it happen :narnar:
If nobody has any objections by the time I get home from school today (around 4-6 pm I guess), I'll send a PM to Saori saying what I suggested in the previous post.
I'll add that he can choose whether he would like to say it himself in that sign-up thread he made, or if he would like us to make a comment on it there, so that the rest of the members know where it's going.
got notting to add to this bob.
The following PM has just been sent to Saori:
Quote from: BobHi again Saori :)
After I shared your last PM with the other officers, we've now had a good chat about it, and here is where we currently stand:
The basic stuff you mentioned, we all pretty much agree with. We are very concerned about the activity in the guild at the moment - both here in the forums and online - and all initiatives that could help increase guild activity is thus greatly appreciated.
Before I tell you about what we would suggest doing with this, I'll briefly tell you about our plans with the official raid sign-up process:
As I mentioned earlier, the reason why we would try to run our Kara sign-ups from the forum, is to increase the activity here. This alone is not what will get members to return to a more active play style and "save" the guild progress, but it is a small piece of the puzzle.
Currently, we are only testing this, so it is not given it will stay this way forever. In about a month we will evaluate if the effect of this has worked out the way we initially hoped. If it should show that this is not the case, we will return to using the sign-up site same as before.
Therefor, our suggestion to you is as follows: it would be much appreciated if you could use the forum for heroic sign-ups as well, as long as we are evaluating this way of signing up to raids. When we after the evaluation, if we decide to go back to the old sign-up site, we will strongly look into giving you the proper administrator rights for that site, so you than can use that site as well to set up heroic runs.
The main point is, that we do not want yet another site the members have to deal with. A third place where people have to register and visit will just complicate things unnecessary much.
We hope you can be happy with this compromise. If you want to say this to the other members in that thread you created, or you would like me to add a post about it, that is totally up to you. I will in any case add a small official comment after it is done, saying that we appreciate and applaud your efforts. Just let me know if you would like to add a post yourself first.
Take care!
Bob
And Saori's answer:
Quote from: saoriHi Bob,
Ok, I agree with your points and I will do as suggested, and in a month we will see. I will edit my post and remove the link to the heroic signup site and explain about it in a comment in the same thread.
This week I couldnt manage to log in because im preparing my moving to KL (Malasia) and I had been really busy this last days, from Malaysia I will have much more time to spend in this and to set up the runs.
Many thanks for your comments and feedback, see you soon my friend.
I guess thats that's it - for now at least.
verry good work here. and my great gratitude to bob and his writing skills :D and nice to see Saori is happy also :D