Where do I start, what can I say about it that has not already been said?
Not much. Thats why this is not a review but rather my personal views about the environment. Yes because its not just a sim. It's a racing environment. There are many similarities to LFS.
Feel and physics:
Regarding the physics in the cars it is not possible to say that they are better than in LFS.Some cars feel very much like a similar car in LFS.
But there is a but. The tracks. But first, the hype about the laser scanned tracks is not to be taken to seriously because the track bumps mainly comes from suspension information from cars. They even released tracks with wrong bump information at some stage. So much for the laser scanning hype. But the tracks. They are superb. The feel is at least as good as in Netkar Pro.
What I find so good is that you constantly are changing the wheel input when driving on the edge. Just as you see on tv :-). Not as you do in LFS, keeping the same wheel input througout the turn. I think this might be just down to the resolution of the tracks and if LFS had similar tracks it would feel similar. I have tried the Solstice, the Skip Barber, the Formula Mazda and the Radical. They are all very different and all fun. The Radical on Silverstone was realy superb.
The environment:
The sim is launched from their net site and that works very well. You select the race you want to be in and sign up. There is all kinds of info on the sites and it is laid out well. There is both text and voice chats you can join both before and after races. (and in race) Text chat key is; T same as in LFS :). On track everyting is straightforward to do but not always so easy to do as in LFS.
There is no car skins as such, but you select skins from a set of templates and selects tree colors for it. It works good.
Attached is an example for of a dMr Solstice.
The plonker filter (Safety rating) is working well. If you hit anything or anybody you loose safety points. These are needed to get higher in the ranks. I just had a 20 minutes race where 8 cars was within a few seconds of each other and not a single incident among us. Close racing for so long was very fun. If someone takes you out you also looses rating, but a few incidents per race still lets you advance in rating. For a dMr the safety rating is a breeze. For a plonker it may be a serious hurdle.
iRating is the system that makes the great racing. Everyone is grouped after their iRating. The rating changes every race. The winners take away points from the loosers much like the elo chess rating system. This rating and grouping ensures very close racing.
Currently there are no system to cater for people like dMr wanting to race together. There are a Friends system that will try to enter you in a race with those you have chosen as friends. Private series will come soon.
The player stats are also similar to those in LFS, and after every race whe get the same stats that Oldie used to make for us. Those with the lap graphs etc. The way the races are laid out is that all the time there are several series going with different cars. Every week this series is racing on one track. Currently every second hour you can race in one of these series. At my level races are 30 minutes so that means I could race once every our. But that would be in different series. At higher levels you would have problems with doing more than one hour race in a two hour period due to warmup and things. But it would suite many people just knowing that at every second hour there will be a race in your selected series. Every night and every day. That would even let us do something in and around the house too...
Cars and tracks
You have to buy them. I got most road cars and a few more road tracks. If you suspend your membership you still have your cars and tracks when you return. More cars and tracks will be developed constantly. I am now waiting for the SpecRacer Ford that is nearly finished. iRacing owns the rights to over 60 tracks so they are scanning new ones as we speak.
Performance:
Its more demanding than LFS, but not much. I have 50fps in iracing with a 12 car field on the grid. It does not bog down as fast as LFS. I dont have dual core or a fast gpu only a 3500+ with a 7600gt. But I can't have full graphics. I use some settings that gives me similar detail to LFS. With at dual core and a fast gpu u can do all kinds of shadow rendering and stuff.
I had big issues with TrackIr at the start had to disable it. The framerate was good but the graphics would studder. This was solved by increasing the priority on the Trackir exe. It's superb now.
Whats missing:
Pit stops are missing. Some flags like blue flags are missing. But you can use
F3 to monitor who is in front and behind you. This is like the list in LFS. But the names are colour coded like in the map in LFS so you know who is laps down or in front of you. Engine wear is missing. Weather is missing. Lots of stuff is missing that should be in there.
The good thing with iRacing is that it will be developed in a much faster rate than LFS can and everyone will demand quality from it due to the subscription system.
My suggestions for dMr:
Anyone that feels for racing sims as much as I do and is spending so much track time as we do just got to try it. There is actually no excuse. If you don't want to pay the price thats up to you, but then you loose out on a very special experience.
For dMw i suggest to embrace it, make a forums section for it like we did for LFS and GTL because several of our members will start racing there as soon as it opens. Still I don't think it will replace LFS as the dMr sim just yet. But I have tried and own a lot of the sims out there and I feel that if one is going to tip LFS of the throne, iRacing will be a very strong contender to do that in the not so distant future.
Nice review
As a sim it sounds interesting and good, but I really don't like subscription system and the 'plonker filter' and 'elo system' are bit iffy imho.
Safety rating
Like Werner mentioned it doesn't see who caused it. If you race in a group where accidents are rare this might work, but in a system which is open to everyone this begins to suck and blow quite soon I guess. For this to work it would require that every incident is checked by some neutral human jury (not like in FIA where they are apes :norty:). But you should have a chance to improve and clear the record over time, because for many people accidents happen just because the car was more what he could handle. Then this could be great actually, even I have no clear picture wher this rating is used.
Skill rating (elo or what ever)
This sort of system are implemented in many places. Even XBox live (or what it is called) have an improved versio of ELO. Actually the vanilla ELO system doesn't work at all in racing games like these (if it even works in chess is questionable). So far I don't know any system which would work so well in computer games that I would have been ready to implement it (to see if one works requires a larger user base and a longer observation period though).
I studied this skill rating when I was coding the VCom system in LFS to see if I could make one in it. I came to conclusion that a fair system in a racing game is almost impossible to make. Without going too deeply into the subject, just think that you really should have different ranking for EVERY combo (which is also slightly controller, computer and connection affected), then how to rank a new player in that combo. Then they should take into account the finnishing time differencies NOT the order (losing 1sec is sure better than 2 laps). But how to take into account mid race joiners and those who left mid race (own decision, out of fuel, accidents, disco,...). Remember than in real racing you do not have discos or mid joiners. In the end there is the human user who wants as simple as possible system which shows the least amount of numbers on screen.
So trying this to make as fair as possible becomes soon a very complex task, maybe even impossible at the full complexity. Mathematically and in computer science this is must be an interesting problem to solve. Micro Soft clearly understood the level of the problem, but could not quite solve it in LiveRating(name?). Instead, what if this could be solved by simply naming servers as "novice","veteran" and "pro"? In the end after all this hard thinking, I came to the conclusion based on the level of the problem, risk of unfair decisions and in my dreams wanting this to be a game where everybody just wants to have fun, where beginners can get advice and setups and learn from more experienced drivers... is it REALLY worth all the trouble?
I remember when I started LFS and learned from drivers who were greatly above my level at the time (and still?). Would this ranking be just a tool to brake this friendly help between people of different experience and speed when they drive in same servers? The exact same thing what I have always loved in Dead Men Racing. We are always open to people of different speeds.
Sorry if I got bit carried away...never intented to write this much or hijack the thread :rolleyes:
An interesting review. I must say that I'm willing to put my money down for a month just to know for myself and you haven't chahanged my mind.
A good point raised by Aquilifer, racing against people of like ability. :g:
I'll check it out first and then see.
Quote from: Doorman;235882I'll check it out first and then see.
I think it is still possible to get an early invite if you register for updates on their web site.
http://www.iracing.com/contact/register.php?lc=3
Quote from: vobler;235952I think it is still possible to get an early invite if you register for updates on their web site.
http://www.iracing.com/contact/register.php?lc=3
Yeah, I did that already. :)
Many thanks to Verner(Vobler) for the invite.
Very first impressions
Downloading/updating was a breeze.:D
Setting up wheel/pedals was less of a breeze, but meh, OK :)
Can't find how to implement TrackIR :sideways:
Looks OK but tbh not HUGELY better than LFS.
Handling seems ok in the rookie Solstice (is a convertible Solstice a summer...?)
Tyre squeal IS loud. :eyebrow: Not very subtle at all.
I'll be back!
I take it back. The graphics ARE better. Laguna Seca is superb! Bloody hard track to stay on though! :blink:
Quote from: Doorman;236352Can't find how to implement TrackIR :sideways:
First in Track ir program go to Update, Game Updates.
Then edit the profile and make sure it loads.
Then if it does not work correctly in game increase the priority on the Trackir exe file in the Task Manager. In task manager select the TrackIr.exe process, right click on it. Select set priority or similar, select high.
Regarding not "hugely" better than LFS, its not. But the car has power steering so it does not feel that good either. Try it at Lime Rock (a bumpy track). If that is not more convincing try the Skip Barber at Lime Rock.
Also the Rookie Soltice understeers badly. I think you can try the advanced one in test or practise.
Edit : Ok you where talking abt. the graphics!
See yo in rookie soltice race later. Hope we get in the same server. Add me as a Friend. Search for me in the top right corner of the memb er site and hover the mouse over my helmet by my found name and select add Friend.
iRacing is now sending out more invites from their mailing lists. If you don't get anything but would like one, try this:
Send them your full name and email address to:
nominations@iracing.com
Quote from: vobler;236411iRacing is now sending out more invites from their mailing lists. If you don't get anything but would like one, try this:
Send them your full name and email address to:
nominations@iracing.com
email sent :D
i have been playing iracing all weekend and i can honestly say that i am not really sure about it, the graphics(i have everything maxed out) are a little better than LFS but not much, the cars are very very slow, what i mean by this is that the sensation of speed, 90mph feels like 20mph?.so the solstace cars are a bit boring to drive (laguna seca), i have also found that the force feedback is some what way behind the LFS feel, Iracing has alot more track effects like bumps and judders, but the actual cornering ff is not there, for example i have downloaded the Mazda single seater and silverstone race track, when you go into and out of all the bends round the track they all feel exactly the same?. after speaking to a few players when playing this game they seem to share the same views and also point out a lot more, its a good game which should be a whole lot better.
what i will say is that in some sort of perverted way i do like going round and round an oval track in the legends, trying to shave a mear fraction off is so rewarding(is that normal), :g:
Like everything in this world not everything is for everybody. In all sims/games there is something one game has that the other one doesn't so it's a case of if you like, it's for you, if not, it's not. :blink: When I first tried it I was sceptical like yourself. In fact I uninstalled it! Then, because I still had 3 weeks left, I reinstalled it. It dawned on me that it costs to go off the track, it costs to hit a tyre wall and it costs to hit another car. That added a whole new frisson that isn't there with LFS.
iRacing isn't a sim I can play all night. One 15 minute practice session, a warmup and a 30 lap race is stress enough for one night! Good stress though. Give it a bit more time. Wait till you've got 4 Safety Rating then you get to race the good guys.
EDIT: Yes it's normal. Wait till you try an oval race. The build up for a start is terrific
Quote from: spudgun55;242748but the actual cornering ff is not there,
Do you mean the force that you can sort of "lean" against in the turns in LFS? It is present sometimes like in the Skippy up the hill at LimeRock Park. I think the reason for it not being so dominant in iRacing is that you in LFS don't have that same feel of front tire grip as you do in iRacing. In iRacing the loss of frontgrip (and FF) reduces the weight transfer force.
I think this is something that makes iRacing way better than LFS. In LFS there is a different feel if you are loosing grip by braking or when you are skidding. This I feel is totally wrong. Take a car to the track and make it understeer through a turn. The forces is the same as if you had full grip. But next make the wheels skid by braking. The force is gone. I'm not sure what is correct, but iRacing feels better to me.
Edit: link to VIR vs VIR in the Skippy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn96JwbB1Ag
If this don't convince you. nothing will.
Quote from: vobler;242773Do you mean the force that you can sort of "lean" against in the turns in LFS? It is present sometimes like in the Skippy up the hill at LimeRock Park. I think the reason for it not being so dominant in iRacing is that you in LFS don't have that same feel of front tire grip as you do in iRacing. In iRacing the loss of frontgrip (and FF) reduces the weight transfer force.
Dunnio, but there are no same cars either afaik. No experience of iRacing, but I think it should be related to the turning radius how you feel the centrifugal force. So how much it pushes you to side is irrelevant of grip. To FFB feeling it should have slight effect that you can feel the grip loss. In LFS I have learned to see if quite well before I lose it totally, because I have no FFB.
Quote from: vobler;242773I think this is something that makes iRacing way better than LFS. In LFS there is a different feel if you are loosing grip by braking or when you are skidding. This I feel is totally wrong. Take a car to the track and make it understeer through a turn. The forces is the same as if you had full grip. But next make the wheels skid by braking. The force is gone. I'm not sure what is correct, but iRacing feels better to me.
I read this 10 times, but not quite sure what you ment with each game. In real life to my experience it does feel different if your front tyres are skidding or if rear is skidding or if both ends are skidding. I don't know what feeling you mean, but I feel in my butt at least.
Quote from: vobler;242773Edit: link to VIR vs VIR in the Skippy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn96JwbB1Ag
If this don't convince you. nothing will.
Sorry for my scepticism, but what exactly is that supposted to prove? Imho it only shows how close to real the scenery looks like. I doubt nobody can compare feeling between the real thing and iRacing based on that.
people have done the same youtube videos of rfactor? lol
i am just trying to say that LFS makes you lean in your seat when you are racing why i have no idea but its that kind of feeling you get when playing it, the adrenaline starts to flow, you just dont get that thrill with iracing,
example = single seaters should be seat of the pants stuff like real life, the open wheel mazda is more of a sunday drive.(grandad caps required)
but like ron rightly says i must stick with it which i will as i have paid for a months gaming, but my view is a monthly fee game needs to be far beyond that of its ageing rivals which at this early stage its not, it needs to be like World of war craft the best in its Category people will then pay for the experiance.
i hope that iracing can iron out its faults quickly. already the game is offering discounts on subs / cars and tracks from the marked prices, is this a sign of unwilling people not paying for the extra content?
i would love to see a next generation racing simulator that shows the pc can have real next gen graphics and ffb technologies and interface and not a very small if any improvement over ageing sims.:g:
I'm also not sure if I like FF in iRacing, but it could be that I am so used to FF in LFS and expecting to get the same in iRacing and when not getting it I'm confused. Also sound feedback is so very differend. When these two major feedbacks are quite different it takes time to re-adapt and learn to drive the iRacing in the limit.
In LFS when I make the car to "take a set", to turn it to the corner so that suspension is all compressed and the wheel turned max for that corner, I feel the FF is quite tight. When the corner starts to straighten out and I can apply more throttle I feel how the FF gradually gets softer. I'm so used to this and it's the main tool for me driving fast, that when missing it in iRacing it apparently takes quite a lot longer to be fast there. Or it could well be that it's my impression that the FF is so important, I have not tested without FF in years.
At the moment I would say that FF in LFS is sharp and accurate, whereas in iRacing it can be a bit dull. Many people say the FF in iRacing is very good and better than in LFS. It could very well be that we just need to learn to tweak the settings and learn to interpret it so that we can use it as a good tool, just like we had done in LFS.
Still, there is something that for now keeps me with iRacing. New very high quality tracks is perhaps the major reason. Then the quality of other racers is better then what the average LFS racer is. I've met one racer that has stayed at around 2.5 in safery rating for a few weeks - this means that they have not earned any safety points to be promoted from the very first rookie level - and still he did not crash on me nor anybody else, though he made moves that did not show the level of maturity that dMr racers have. But total wreckers I've not met yet.
Quote from: romus;242781In LFS when I make the car to "take a set", to turn it to the corner so that suspension is all compressed and the wheel turned max for that corner, I feel the FF is quite tight. When the corner starts to straighten out and I can apply more throttle I feel how the FF gradually gets softer. I'm so used to this and it's the main tool for me driving fast, that when missing it in iRacing it apparently takes quite a lot longer to be fast there.
I agree that this makes it easier to find the limits in LFS, hence makes it easier to be fast. But I do not agree that it is "better".
But I rest my case about iRacing for now. At any point in time I will use the sim I feel gives me the most realistic feel of racing a real car. Not the one that makes me win the most races.
If NetKar tomorrow comes with its patch. With more cars and even better feel than iRacing, and lots of new drivers; I would not hesitate a minute to abandon my 1 year sub in iRacing if I felt that would give me a better feel for racing.
Quote from: vobler;242785If NetKar tomorrow comes with its patch. With more cars and even better feel than iRacing, and lots of new drivers; I would not hesitate a minute to abandon my 1 year sub in iRacing if I felt that would give me a better feel for racing.
That's interesting, because I've never tried NetKar. Let us know when the patch is out, so I'll perhaps try it as well.
Quote from: romus;242787That's interesting, because I've never tried NetKar. Let us know when the patch is out, so I'll perhaps try it as well.
The truth is that NetKar Pro is very good as it is. The big frustration is hardly anyone uses it on a 'public pickup race' basis. There is a hardcore of league racers for whom nkp works well. I have, and can still, run a server. In my opinion the physics are first class. Probably the best of all sims. It's worth having on your hard drive. I still have practice sessions with it. I'll go as far as to say it's the only sim I can simply lap in. I can't do that with LFS. LFS has to have mates on.
Quote from: romus;242787That's interesting, because I've never tried NetKar. Let us know when the patch is out, so I'll perhaps try it as well.
I said *IF*. :) But yes. Netkar *IS* good. I'm sorry to say I tried and I tried. I wanted it to be good and usable for me. I was in the GPC Championship, but I could only do practise and qualifying. In months I did not race one race. There where 100 people fighting for 15 spots in a race. I was not fast enough. So I gave it up.
i also have netkar pro, it does seem to have a good driving experiance but for some reason i just cant get the graphics to look good, i seem to get loads of jaggy lines, i have tried nvidia control panel settings and upped the settings there ect but made no differance.
Quote from: spudgun55;242801i also have netkar pro, it does seem to have a good driving experiance but for some reason i just cant get the graphics to look good, i seem to get loads of jaggy lines, i have tried nvidia control panel settings and upped the settings there ect but made no differance.
It works normal here. I set it to 4AA 16AS for track day. (in races I use 2AA)
Try to make an entry in the Nvidia profiler for NetKar. Make sure you select the correct exe. Its nks.exe in the nkp sub dir.
Quote from: vobler;242785I agree that this makes it easier to find the limits in LFS, hence makes it easier to be fast. But I do not agree that it is "better".
found this reply to a very poor review for iracing.(the way it has been written)
http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/17641-iRacing_First_iMpressions
The handling of the cars is certainly as good as any other Sim out there but using the basic Solstice as an example for this creates quite a false impression due to the fact that this comes with power steering so dampens the effects somewhat. You really notice the difference on the Legend.
could this be the reason why i find the legends a joy around the oval, but the solstice a totally detached experiance?i will also check to see if the mazda has power steering as well, :g:
Quote from: spudgun55;242895Quote from: vobler;242785I agree that this makes it easier to find the limits in LFS, hence makes it easier to be fast. But I do not agree that it is "better".
found this reply to a very poor review for iracing.(the way it has been written)
http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/17641-iRacing_First_iMpressions
The handling of the cars is certainly as good as any other Sim out there but using the basic Solstice as an example for this creates quite a false impression due to the fact that this comes with power steering so dampens the effects somewhat. You really notice the difference on the Legend.
could this be the reason why i find the legends a joy around the oval, but the solstice a totally detached experiance?i will also check to see if the mazda has power steering as well, :g:
Interesting. I've been mostly driving Solstice, so I will have to try Skippy more today to check how it feels.
Quote from: vobler;235872I had big issues with TrackIr at the start had to disable it. The framerate was good but the graphics would studder. This was solved by increasing the priority on the Trackir exe. It's superb now.
I have a question about Trackir in iRacing. I've only seen one video of it (this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3oKJdUmCtk)), and he doesn't show whether you can look 90 degrees left or right. Is this possible? In nKP you can only pan about 20 degrees to each side (at least in the demo), which is totally stupid in my opinion..
Quote from: Gnomie;247167I have a question about Trackir in iRacing. I've only seen one video of it (this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3oKJdUmCtk)), and he doesn't show whether you can look 90 degrees left or right. Is this possible? In nKP you can only pan about 20 degrees to each side (at least in the demo), which is totally stupid in my opinion..
In todays iRacing there is a 90 degree limit. But in the Skip Barber the view is obstructed by the cars body (rollcage).
The 20 degree limit in NKPro is that you are wearing a HANS device that limits your head movement. I still think the limit is to severe. I use look buttons and TrackIr in NKPro.
Cool, thank you. :)
By invitation of Verner / Vobler, here are my thoughts on iRacing - I hope it is the appropriate place.
Let us start with a disclaimer: I have not tried it! It may seem sufficient to skip the rest but please bear with me...
I purchased LFS after spending years (I think close to 2) on its demo. This is the first "game" I have purchased since my long gone teenage years.
I purchased LFS S2 but it was not in order to get S2 content. At this time I had no idea what that would be.
I purchased LFS because I was astonished by the quality and quantity of this piece of software, made by 3 guys, who live their dream and risked all to work the way they want, be their own bosses, do what they like.
I purchased the game because I wanted to support them and thank them for the fun I had during 2 years (even with a mouse :)) for free.
For all this I sneaked LFS into my home, although my wife is more like :ranting2: at the mere evocation of online racing and computer games in general.
Now with iRacing:
I think that the piece of software they now have is at least on par with LFS, from reviews and videos. I also think it will become better that LFS real quick due to the incredible development power they have.
I dislike very much the marketing process they used to sell ("rent") their game. Laser scanning stuff, "selected" few for public testing giving the selected the impression of being special and making others begging to pay and join, real life racers hype, wild emphasis on software strong points and blackout on the approximations and missing features (flags? Clutch?).
I dislike the pricing principle. It is way too expensive to be democratic and only appeals to us rich developped countries, it "forces" the user to buy a lot of extras once hooked, and I do not like "renting" a piece of software.
The monthly fee, subscription, is in my opinion a very dangerous precedent for sim racing. I would like this part of iRacing to fail while the rest survives!
I do not think the subscription can be defended, because there is very little service offered for this price. Updates are free but new content has to be payed for, and the league system they have in place can not cost this much (CTRA does somethin similar for free...). Servers only are not this expensive.
I think this high price is done for the following (non politically correct) reasons:
Keeping kids out
Keeping bad ping third world users out
Providing a sense of elitism to the subscribers (I pay this much, it must be the best - like champagne) especially in the US.
I think iRacing will fail at creating a community because there is not much to do apart from racing, and no need for a community, only subscribers. Once it allows private leagues communities already established may join iRacing (like you here :)) but that's about it.
End of my own little rant. On my end there is nothing wrong with iRacing except what it conveys...
Quote from: Mille Sabords;249470By invitation of Verner / Vobler, here are my thoughts on iRacing - I hope it is the appropriate place.
Yes it is and I totally agree with the rest of your comments.
I have tried it and found that the lack of the simple things that we all take for granted within LFS was not surpassed by shiny graphics and laser scanned tracks.
I appreciate that the development has moved on at a terrific pace since then but for a 'fun' racer like me the regimented racing just doesn't appeal. A well-run drop-in server is much more suitable for my needs and, spookily enough, there's one to be found right here.:D
totally agree with oldie, i tried iracing for 2 months, did not like it much to begin with, but after a while it started to grow on me, the graphics are very nice but to be honest in the end as i progressed i felt like i wasn,t allowed to race wheel to wheel , the fear of losing hard earned points made me not take any risks, and other drivers with lower points would just let you through. insubcribed and will stick with LFS.
Quote from: Mille Sabords;249470Now with iRacing:
I think that the piece of software they now have is at least on par with LFS, from reviews and videos. I also think it will become better that LFS real quick due to the incredible development power they have.
Thanks for sharing Mille,
I agree, thats why I'm gradually phasing out my LFS driving. Even if they currently are behind LFS in some areas.
Quote from: Mille Sabords;249470I dislike the pricing principle. It is way too expensive to be democratic and only appeals to us rich developped countries, it "forces" the user to buy a lot of extras once hooked, and I do not like "renting" a piece of software.
The monthly fee, subscription, is in my opinion a very dangerous precedent for sim racing..
Of cause I would prefer to pay one time, one fee! Who wouldn't? But I don't buy your reasoning. If you have a computer capable to run iRacing, you are rich enough to pay the price. It has nothing to do with developed countries or not. All sims have this problem.
The price is what it is. Some feel it is expensive and some feel it is dirt cheap.
There is a lot in my life I can't afford. But I don't feel I have to make up excuses for not affording it. I just don't buy it. If I really want it; I sacrifice something to get it. Real racing is way more than I can afford. I'm not sacrificing my home. iRacing is the next best thing.
Thats all.
My point is not about it being expensive or not.
It is expensive if you do not play a lot (I don't fire LFS a lot) but still affordable for me.
I do not see anything that explains why they need a subscription, rather than fixed price.
I don't like the fact that you have nothing left (rental) when the subscription is over.
I also refuse to purchase a demo...
These 3 pricing issues together make me think that iRacing is targeting a market that is adults that treat themselves with an expensive toy to feel special or hardcore sim racers that will go for the best out there if they can get it without selling their body or parts of it. I feel I am neither so this marketing repulses me instead of attracting me, that's all.
I do not think iRacing is highly expensive but if I subscribed I would not feel happy / proud / part of something like I did by purchasing LFS. I would be one more customer of a large machine... better game, it seems like it, but not a game that makes ME want to support it and fund it with my money.
As long as good races and fun can be found on LFS that's where I will be (on dMr servers for example :))
Its a real love/hate thing I've got going with iRacing. Currently i don't have my own subscription, i just do a friends oval racing for him, and drive the road cars offline.
Several months since release I'm still not tempted to buy in. It's still only half a sim, which would be fine if it wasn't for the fact they are charging what they are. I'm not saying it's too expensive (though i certainly don't feel its anything like good value for money) but there are far to many standard features missing at the present time. This is improving slowly, but after all that time and money on development i would have expected a lot of stuff that is currently missing to have been there from the start.
The Elitism amongst a lot of the iRacing crowd is like nothing I've witnessed before. Just reading some of the stuff on the RSC iRacing forum, and the official forum makes me hate half the drivers before I've even encountered them.:boxing:
Luckily there are a few people with their heads screwed on, but it seems that the majority shoot down the slightest criticism of iRacing. It seems that because of what they are paying for this sim they cant bring themselves to admit it's flaws. I've been a bit too fanboyish about nKPro in the past, but i never once claimed it to be something it wasn't. I always admitted it's (sometimes major) shortcomings.
Never have i come across a sim racing community that my initial impression has been "what a complete bunch of tossers" before. A decent community is an important part of a sim for me.
The SR thing is a good idea in theory. No one want idiots or wreckers on the track but it does make the racing (the road racing anyway) a bit sterile at times. You shouldn't be scared to attempt overtaking. You shouldn't be scared about minor contact. (it's not desirable, but it happens in racing) or running wide and getting a couple of wheels off the track. It's just a bit harsh imo.
Yes, it's not to difficult to keep your SR high, but you shouldn't even have to think about it when your racing. It's always in the back of your mind though. Everyone here tries to race clean don't they? iRacing wants to make people race like robots.
Without private severs and leagues the team element is missing, as is the having fun with your friends/regular racers element. Sim racing should be a fun thing, as well as a place for serious racing. iRacing seems a bit stuck up it's own arse at times. It lacks that social aspect i get with nKPro and LFS.
The cars are great fun to drive (apart from the solstice, which is tolerable at best) Its a shame the Radical and Mazda had such huge physics flaws, but that appears to be fixed now. The Radical is a huge amount of fun to drive.
There's nothing else to be said about the tracks. They are simply fantastic. Nothing else in sim racing comes close to the laser scanned tracks. They are by far the biggest selling point, and the thing that really impresses me with iRacing. If you took away the laser scanned tracks i think a lot more people would realise that iRacing is presently not much more than an above average sim, but really not as special as people seem to have convinced themselves it is. (i guess when your paying what they are charging, you have to convince yourself that's its the mutts nuts ;))
If you stuck laser scanned tracks in LFS and nKPro i think they would both measure up really well. I even actually enjoyed rFactor on the laser scanned Eastern Creek track, and i really cant stand that pile of poop excuse for a sim normally. That track made a huge difference.
So my conclusion is that iRacing has a lot of potential, the cars feel good and the tracks are very impressive. It just lacks so much in other areas at the moment that it's not worth the money for me. The iRacing system does absolutely nothing for me either. I treat doing my friends oval races just as fun (though obviously i race seriously,it's his name and reputation on the line) I take no notice of the rankings whatsoever and just get out and enjoy the races.
I might actually buy into it eventually just for the oval racing, as that's an experience i cant get anywhere else. For all my road racing needs i'm happy to stick with LFS and nKPro for the time being. I'll always feel I'm missing out on track quality with those two sims, but i gain so much more in the social and fun aspects.
The marketing and "real racers endorsements" seem to have worked fantastically though :narnar:
"OMG! Dale Earnhardt Jr. races it, it has to be the best thing evahhh" [/sarcasm]
How was that for a ramble?
If you've just read all that **** you need to get out more. :D
Quote from: The Moose;249503How was that for a ramble?
4/5 :thumbsup2:
Great post! You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. 5/5
Quote from: Mille Sabords;249496My point is not about it being expensive or not.
It is expensive if you do not play a lot (I don't fire LFS a lot) but still affordable for me.
I do not see anything that explains why they need a subscription, rather than fixed price.
I don't like the fact that you have nothing left (rental) when the subscription is over.
I also refuse to purchase a demo...
These 3 pricing issues together make me think that iRacing is targeting a market that is adults that treat themselves with an expensive toy to feel special or hardcore sim racers that will go for the best out there if they can get it without selling their body or parts of it. I feel I am neither so this marketing repulses me instead of attracting me, that's all.
Yes and everything you are telling us is that you don't like it. You say nothing about the sim itself. Its all about you. You dont that, you dont this. I bet you have an internet subscription. I bet you have a phone. I bet you have some form of tv subcription. I could go on. Do you own those? No, but You want to own your sims. You own your PC you own your wheel like you own your phone and your tv. Is that not enough? And if you get an LFS server at some ISP do you think you own it?
As I have stated before, I don't care if people don't like iRacing.
There is one thing you need to understand. That is that the feeling when driving in iRacing makes me and many with me, care less how it's sold or marketed. Its just awesome.
But I buy the points of Oldie Doorz and Spudgun. They have tried it. They feel it is at loss in some places. And it is. But the main thing is there. The drive. The feel for driving a real car. Moose says that if you put the tracks in LFS or NKP it will be the same or better. I agree. Its been months since I stated that on these forums. But its not going to happen soon.
In september Scawen stated that we would not get a patch soon, because the standards are higher now. He knows it. Stefano knows it.
Our best bet in the not to distant future is to sign up for iRacing and support them, let them have the userbase they need to give us what we want.
Quote from: vobler;249529Our best bet in the not to distant future is to sign up for iRacing and support them, let them have the userbase they need to give us what we want.
Sorry, cant agree with that one.
They are the ones with the bottomless moneypit. Give people what they want and they will naturally attract the bigger userbase.
There's no other situation in life that i can think of where you would start handing out cash for something in the hope that they will turn the product into something you want further down the line.
If and when they supply the product I'm interested in and I'll get my credit card out without hesitation.
It's a good sim. It's up to iRacing to decide if they want to attract a bigger userbase. I hope so, it deserves to improve,grow and succeed.
Quote from: The Moose;249532There's no other situation in life that i can think of where you would start handing out cash for something in the hope that they will turn the product into something you want further down the line.
With that attitude there would be no global financial crisis :D
I feel that iRacing has managed to build up enthusiasm among many simracing lovers. I don't say hardcore simracers or any other category, just among some. Many are appealed to what it gives and for many the price is paid from the bottom of the pocket moneys.
I have not told about my feelings toward the sim in ages, so let's say something about it, to stay in topic. I've paid one years subscription, but have not raced for more than a month. I took one year right away, because I thought the sim would evolve a lot during that time and I wanted to be able to follow the developement. At first I was amazed of the quality of the tracks and the depth of the sim. Then I started missing good social fun at dMr.
I'm not very competition oriented. I rather compete against myself, try to improve my lines and car balance control, and whatever is needed to drive fast and be consistent. I get most pleasure of beating my times and rising my level. Thursday races are then more serious battles for me, but in general, during the week, I just try to improve.
iRacing with stranges felt like nothing but competition. I got often pushed off the track by a bloke slower than me. There was no social aspect at all. I'll try again for sure, I'm happy I can do it when I want due to the one year subscription, but currently it's more for offline hotlapping nights with friends. All my friends who have tried both iRacing and LFS prefer iRacing. (none of these are regular simracers)
LFS with dMr however, meets well with my interests towards simracing. Sim is good enough to differentiate aliens from folks like me, but allows me to feel when I've improved and learned something. Pleasure from working hard and finally improving my times is what keeps me with simracing. Racing with dMr gives me people around me whose driving is not completely unpredictable, my experience will not be ruined by fellow racers. Also gettings setups and ideas and just talking BS is an important part of the whole experience.
Quote from: The Moose;249532There's no other situation in life that i can think of where you would start handing out cash for something in the hope that they will turn the product into something you want further down the line.
Actually, I worded that pretty poorly. :rolleyes: But you get the gist of what I mean I'm sure. :)
I'm not going to invest $156+ extras a year on what iRacing
might become. (yes, I'm tight :D) Especially not when they have the financial backing that they do.
Quote from: The Moose;249532Sorry, cant agree with that one.
They are the ones with the bottomless moneypit.
I was speaking of users not money. They need users to tell them what they (users) want.
Quote from: vobler;249553I was speaking of users not money. They need users to tell them what they (users) want.
Ahh, fair enough, I slightly misunderstood what you were saying. :)
Quote from: The Moose;249532There's no other situation in life that i can think of where you would start handing out cash for something in the hope that they will turn the product into something you want further down the line.
.
Maybe in no other situation. But regarding sims I did it both with NKP and LFS. They both have failed to come up with that product i wanted.
I think its fair to give iRacing two years like I gave the two others.
Quote from: vobler;249559Maybe in no other situation. But regarding sims I did it both with NKP and LFS. They both have failed to come up with that product i wanted.
I think its fair to give iRacing two years like I gave the two others.
The difference being that cost you a total of what? $100 for years of entertainment. (ok, not everyone felt they got good value with nKPro, but it was the best £25 i ever spent :))
2 years of iRacing is a big investment, relatively speaking.
The '79 F1 car and the lovely looking GT car might just swing it for me though. I don't know if i can resist once they are out.
Quote from: The Moose;2495852 years of iRacing is a big investment, relatively speaking.
You can buy much very cheap. You don't always get what you wanted. If this is the price I have to pay; so be it.
Most of you have the computer you have *beacause* you are sim racing. You add hundreds of pounds worth of goodes to your PC's so you can race. Not wanting to spend 100 pound a year on a good sim does not make sense to me.
Quote from: vobler;249589Most of you have the computer you have *beacause* you are sim racing. You add hundreds of pounds worth of goodes to your PC's so you can race. Not wanting to spend 100 pound a year on a good sim does not make sense to me.
Most people, yes probably.
I race with a old computer of scrounged parts that cost me virtually nothing, and a 5 year old MSFF wheel that's done a good 250,000 mile of sim racing, makes horrible noises and has no resistance in the pedals at all :D (which makes it twice as satisfying when i beat the "all the gear but no idea" brigade. :lmfao:)
I know what your saying anyway. I did say it was expensive "relatively speaking" Not that it costs too much. I still think it's currently poor value for money though, however you look at it. You're paying a hell of a lot (relatively speaking ;) ) for them to run some servers and update some stats.
Quote from: The Moose;249622I still think it's currently poor value for money though, however you look at it.
Maybe it is. But if I want to spend my spare time driving sims. What is my alternatives? I have tried most of the sims. The cost of ownership of all those sims are peanuts compared to the time I spend on them. And if I'm going to spend all that time. It better be on a sim I feel good about. Currently that is iRacing. Next week it might be NKP or LFS. I don't know. Where I feel *I* get the best value for money, I will be.
Quote from: The Moose;249622I race with a old computer of scrounged parts that cost me virtually nothing, and a 5 year old MSFF wheel that's done a good 250,000 mile of sim racing, makes horrible noises and has no resistance in the pedals at all :D (which makes it twice as satisfying when i beat the "all the gear but no idea" brigade. :lmfao:)
Oi! That's me you're talking about! :sideways:
This is getting a bit 'handbags at dawn' ish. In my humble opinion, we all do what pleases us best and defending one against the other gets no-one very far. These are only 'opinions' after all and I don't want any falling out on my section thank you very much. :cheers::hug2:
Quote from: Doorman;249638This is getting a bit 'handbags at dawn' ish.
Ahh, sorry, it's just my posting style, and lack of ability to communicate what i want to say without coming across as a bit argumentative.
Sometimes i just totally fail at teh internets :doh: :huggy:
Well I think this has been one of the best discussions on iRacing that i've read. Very informative. Well done chaps.
Quote from: Doorman;249638This is getting a bit 'handbags at dawn' ish.
I had to look that one up Ron. Yes maybe it was going that way.
But you could look the other way while I gave him a beating. Better yet, you hold him while I am punching. :boxing:
I didn't want to make it sound like I was putting the gag on. I simply thought it was going to end in a ''tis-'tisn't' thing a la LFS forums. Carry on discussing :)
QuoteAhh, sorry, it's just my posting style, and lack of ability to communicate what i want to say without coming across as a bit argumentative.
Sometimes i just totally fail at teh internets :doh: :huggy:
We both know that's not true Stuart. You're one of the few left on the LFS forum that isn't on my ignore list :D
Quote from: vobler;249662I had to look that one up Ron. Yes maybe it was going that way.
But you could look the other way while I gave him a beating. Better yet, you hold him while I am punching. :boxing:
Well be very quick then. :norty:
Quote from: vobler;249662But you could look the other way while I gave him a beating. Better yet, you hold him while I am punching. :boxing:
Even if I'm being held i can still deliver a swift knee to the balls. :haha:
(love ya really :flirty:)
Quote from: Doorman;249663We both know that's not true Stuart. You're one of the few left on the LFS forum that isn't on my ignore list :D
Ohh, I'm flattered :blush: :)
Quote from: The Moose;249669Even if I'm being held i can still deliver a swift knee to the balls. :haha:
See, I told you it would end in tears!
Quote from: Doorman;249686See, I told you it would end in tears!
Do you see me cry? 2 minutes to Daytona! :yahoo: