There's much tearing of hair and rending of raiment over maps which 'suck' are 'T biased', CT biased, not enough access points, too many choke points, not enough this and too much that.
So, is there a map that satisfies every condition/requirement? Maps past and present.
there is no perfect map. Everyone plays differently so each map will be biased differently for various players. The best that can be hoped for is for the players to meet in the choke points at the same time, and that none of the defensive positions are too strong.
de_Train is perfect:learn:
A few maps i consider to be "FAIR"
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/19235 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/19235)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/15714 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/15714)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/48679 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/48679)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/19035 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/19035)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/12343 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/12343)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/20806 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/20806)
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/54178 (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/54178)
Iv played on these and they are fair, but i havent played them tactical stlye. Maybe worth a shot? Spice up the server a bit :)
Actually I think Astute is pretty well balanced between teams! Can't really think of many others though to be honest.
The money is on it's way Lee :D
I love Nightfever, I think the layout is great with some good options and a nice mix of indoors and outdoors.
Maybe we should make a no thrills TCS map.
Although astute is a great piece of work I find it a little complex and it stretches the teams out alot.
I can see a dMw brainstorming session for the perfect TCS map.
There is some comments out there regarding map layout "theory". The ones I have read keeps returning to the 4 square layout. I made this post (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=23636) earlier where you can read a bit about it.
Still I find most of the maps in our rotation to be quite even. As stated above it depends also on how the teams perform.
dust then.....
It depends how they are played. Office is fair, unless the T's camp the second hostage room, however at that point the numbers are usually thin enough to make it breachable. Gunga normally has the outside covered at that point ;)
Thunder always played well, so I would say the general approach to good maps needs to have 3 approaches to the same target if it's a single target, or 2 approaches to 2 targets.
Think dust - short, long a, mincer or doors to b.
Thunder, 1 target, vent, top and bottom approaches with no real choke point.
Inferno, good but limited on the choke approach to the waterfountain site.
Rio, fun, but let's face it, if the T's sat in the house they should win every time.
Italy, 1 door, 1 window. defendable.
Italy_extended, additional cellar, but again to defend the hostages fairly easy.
That zombie map that i can't remember the name of (CT water start, persian rugs, high low approaches.)....multi approaches, but defendable..good map.
And my final example, Piranesi, defendable, but there are multiple approaches and a disorganized defence can get pulled about.
Quote from: Whitey;238668The money is on it's way Lee :D
I love Nightfever, I think the layout is great with some good options and a nice mix of indoors and outdoors.
:yahoo: :norty:
I really enjoy playing Nightfever too, it can be tricky for CT sometimes, but it is well balanced generally.
So, I'm getting the message here that there isn't a generally accepted 'perfect' map. That's fine, although I'm surprised to find Dust even being mentioned. It must have something because it's been around since the Romans started playing CS.
Well, if you look at statistics you will find that Dust and Dust2 are the most played maps at any time in CSS, CZ and CS1.6. So there is something "good" about them.
A good judgement call is ... Does your heart drop when you find yourself playing either T or CT on a map.
For me, Dust 2 is probably a good example where I'm perfectly happy to play as either side. Can't honestly say the same for Dust though.
Quote from: OldBloke;238745A good judgement call is ... Does your heart drop when you find yourself playing either T or CT on a map.
For me, Dust 2 is probably a good example where I'm perfectly happy to play as either side. Can't honestly say the same for Dust though.
1) Heart drops as T on
Aztec too
2)
Italy, defendable but there are there entrance points so can be attacked OK
3)
Office, similar to above and in fact if T's hang back with hossies, the CT's can win it.
4)
Dust_2, T's have three routes to two sites so pretty fair as above with Italy and the CT's need to be quick to site and also be ready to dash to other site too which makes it very interesting.
5)
Astute, while not a standard map, genuinly has options for both teams but there needs to be numbers playing as T's can easily win when numbers are low (like 4 or 5 CT's)
6)
Contra can be won by either side but you better hope CT's don't outnumber T's
Please don't mention
dust again as it really isn't TCS. It can only be TCS when T's outnumber CT's nicely.
Quote from: Dr Sadako;238744Well, if you look at statistics you will find that Dust and Dust2 are the most played maps at any time in CSS, CZ and CS1.6. So there is something "good" about them.
Yeah but what? Dust 2, no problem, but Dust is a 'heart dropper' for me.
Quote from: Doorman;238774Yeah but what? Dust 2, no problem, but Dust is a 'heart dropper' for me.
As I said earlier. It depends on the style of game you are playing. Dust in a match situation it quite fun actually. The map is extremely popular as a DM map. In TCS the map becomes more difficult for T. However, I don't find it impossible. Only last week I played the map and Ts won 10-3 ...
I do agree though, it is not the best TCS map but I could easily think of worse when looking at the standard maps.
Piranisi is the perfect map imo
a) lots of windows to defend the bombsite
b) Bombsites both have multiple levels, making it easiar to attack/defend
c) Tactical Layout is perfect
I just love it think its the fairest map regardless of who is on your team, or what team you are on.
Jewelz^
Quote from: Jewelz^;238841Piranisi is the perfect map imo
a) lots of windows to defend the bombsite
b) Bombsites both have multiple levels, making it easiar to attack/defend
c) Tactical Layout is perfect
I just love it think its the fairest map regardless of who is on your team, or what team you are on.
Jewelz^
Not bad except the one 'natural' route into B for T's is a death trap :doh:
Of course you could go through middle/top to B but that has dangers because you are going close to A and those routes are usually well defended.
So Piranesi isn't the 'best' map for that reason. If it consisted of two bomb sites like A, then maybe it would be up there! :D
Quote from: Jabbs;238880So Piranesi isn't the 'best' map for that reason. If it consisted of two bomb sites like A, then maybe it would be up there! :D
Maybe one of our mappers here at dmw could try and remake pirinesi but change bombsite B to be more accessable maybe :)
Quote from: Jewelz^;238900Maybe one of our mappers here at dmw could try and remake pirinesi but change bombsite B to be more accessable maybe :)
Great idea! Well its a great idea cos it cant be me to remake it! :D Come on Doc! Come on Whitey!
Quote from: Blunt;238661de_Train is perfect:learn:
:withstupid:
Quote from: Blunt;238917:withstupid:
de_train is..is..is not on my fave list.
Quote from: Doorman;238919de_train is..is..is not on my fave list.
:withstupid: De_train isnt my favourite either.. infact i dont like it at all
Technically
de_train is a good map but it is not well liked!
- CT's are close to the bomb sites and can get there to defend there quicker than the T's
- T's have three ways into A (left hand site for T's, right for CT's) which is good for them.
- T's have two good ways into B and the possibility of going through the middle towards A and dashing through to B.
But as I said it isn't well liked. I am not sure why. :crying:
Quote from: Jabbs;238939Technically de_train is a good map but it is not well liked!
But as I said it isn't well liked. I am not sure why. :crying:
I find it is too dark
too many trains to get cover
too many small gaps
too many ladders!
:ranting2:
I do like Train, wouldn't say it's the best TCS map though. :narnar:
Quote from: Blunt;238917:withstupid:
Quoting yourself...Shameless.
I don't think there is a perfect map but i enjoy most maps :D
EDIT: didnt mean Piriniesi i meant chateau :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jewelz^;238993EDIT: didnt mean Piriniesi i meant chateau :rolleyes:
Chateau is an interesting map but I wouldn't stretch it as far as to saying it is a perfect map. Bombsite A is regularly only rushed, rarely the side window is used. Who wins on that side is purely down to how CTs defend it. B is a chokepoint and if CTs play it right that chokepoint shouldn't be a problem to guard at all. Middle entrance from water is another chokepoint and CTs have loads of options to cover it. Still this map plays better than e.g. prodigy or italy imo.
Looking at the standard maps I would say that dust2 and piranesi are the most fair maps. Looking at custom maps I would say that e.g. supply, kismayo and nightfever are very even as well.
In my opinion Piranesi is the most closest to perfect. There's so many ways you can get to the sites and it's fair enough for the CT's to protect the sites.