If we were to have a map with standards maps only. What maps would be in that rotation? These are standard maps that are available. Some of those are not suitable to PCS imo. I know some of you will disagree.
as_highrise - No
as_oilrig - No
as_tundra - Maybe
cs_747 - A No
cs_arabstreets - Yes
cs_assault - No
cs_backalley -No
cs_estate - Yes
cs_italy - Yes
cs_militia - Yes
cs_office - Yes
cs_siege - No
cs_thunder - Maybe
de_aztec - Yes
de_cbble - No
de_dust - No
de_dust2 - Yes
de_inferno - Yes
de_nuke - Yes
de_prodigy - No
de_rotterdam - Yes
de_train - Yes
de_vegas - Yes
de_vertigo - No
I find "cs_" type maps to be a bit stagnent for PCS when playing as "T" compared to the bomb type maps
QuoteI find "cs_" type maps to be a bit stagnent for PCS when playing as "T" compared to the bomb type maps
I agree. de maps are less static.
i agree but i think that tundra and prodegy are yes's
QuoteIf we were to have a map with standards maps only. What maps would be in that rotation? These are standard maps that are available. Some of those are not suitable to PCS imo. I know some of you will disagree.
as_highrise - No
as_oilrig - No
as_tundra - Maybe
cs_747 - A No
cs_arabstreets - Yes
cs_assault - No
cs_backalley -No
cs_estate - Yes
cs_italy - Yes
cs_militia - Yes
cs_office - Yes
cs_siege - No
cs_thunder - Maybe
de_aztec - Yes
de_cbble - No
de_dust - No
de_dust2 - Yes
de_inferno - Yes
de_nuke - Yes
de_prodigy - No
de_rotterdam - Yes
de_train - Yes
de_vegas - Yes
de_vertigo - No
There is a lot of gray in that list. We should remember that not all maps play well all of the time - it depends who is on the server. For example I have had some great tactical games on cbble and some lousy rush rush rush DM games on inferno. On that basis it is difficult to score the above list at all.........
TL. 8)
I think writing out the entire list with colour-coded answers would take me too long :roll:
Me too, so I'll just take issue with two maps... Dust and Seige. Both these maps are what you make of them. I've seen them played very well by teams that co-ordinate and communicate effectively. It's not just a bullet-fest in the mincer or on the ramp as long as the T's are creative about how they execute their attacks.
I was lucky enough to see a demo of Nocturne playing seige and the way they assaulted the underground area and worked through thehostage rooms at the back was amazing. They're not bad maps for PCS play, just hard work to deal with as CT's.
Plus we have to keep some of them in the rotation otherwise we'll never play on them and never win a thing in the matches.
I miss Dust, Cbble and prodigy. Afaik arabstreets isnt a standard map, or it wasn't the last time i looked.
Is it possible we could take a look at De_airstrip as it's in 1.6 so some of us out there must have played it and could give their opinions.
Hmm, I know this isn't a standard map but I can't be arsed to start a new topic. de_volare. I know u boobs tried it and booted it but I think it deserves another try!
The wonder of the Deadmen Servers; we get what we ask for, good (railway) or bad (rio)
QuoteHmm, I know this isn't a standard map but I can't be *TANGO* to start a new topic. de_volare. I know u boobs tried it and booted it but I think it deserves another try!
we booted it because it sucked more than a turbo Dyson on speed
in all the times we played it I don't recall a decent game
long may it rot in the has beens section !!!
this is only my opinion !! :x
QuoteThe wonder of the Deadmen Servers; we get what we ask for, good (railway) or bad (rio)
Train is indeed a good map.
Sorry to hear that you don't like Rio. I think this is one of the best maps in the rotation. Without hesitation the best cs map in the rotation. I discussed this a bit with DCG last night while playing it and this map is what you make it. CTs can own on this map. T also and you can have matches that are extremely close. The problem as I see it is that when you stop playing as a team you will lose on this map. I have seen 9 CT vs 4 Ts on this map and the Ts kicked CTs ass big time. The only reason was that they played as a team. CT didn't do that. When I played Rio last night I played on both sides. The lack of communication on CT was the main reason why we/they lost.
Some tips regarding Rio.
1). This is a very small map. There is NO NEED to run anywhere on this map without the hostages. Use the crouch walk or walk button as much as possible.
2). Use the available time. 5 minutes are forever on this map. If you die within 45 seconds of a new round you should reconsider your style of play.
3). As CT shoot the cameras. They are used by T.
4). Apply the wear down tactics as a team.
QuoteI have seen this tactic been used sometimes on this server but not as often as it should be used imho. Usually it is employed when there is only 1 player left on the attacking team. So what do I mean?
1. Attack at one spot. It is not necessary to get a kill.
2. Retreat/regroup
3. Take a new position
Repeat the cycle.
This tactic is very effective on de maps for Ts. It will make the CTs uncertain if they are not well organised. They will not know the difference between a distraction and a real plant attempt.
As I said in "1." it is not necessary to get a kill. By wearing down the enemy they will call for backup and soon they will get unorganised.
So what I am saying is try this tactic before there is only one guy left ...
Simple CS rules to live by:
1) Just because you see an enemy doesn't mean you have to shoot at him instantly. Especially if he doesn't see YOU.
2) Just because you see an enemy doesn't mean you have to kill him there and then. Wear down tactic applies.
3) Just because a teammate fires at an enemy does not mean the rest of the team should all bunch up pushing each other out of the way to try and get in the last shot to win the kill. (happens ALL the time)
4) You don't need to run everywhere. You've got 5 minutes to complete your objective, use the time you have wisely.
Cheers,
Each to their own. It's far too busy a map for me. Too many routes, windows, hiding places and dark spots. It's a 'creaper' map and I hate them.
My thoughts about Rio and for that matter the new assault map, is that although they both give a lot of opportunity for varied play and are good looking maps, I have never played on either map and had a good tactical game. What i mean by this is the attacking and to a lesser extent the defending team never seem to work properly as a team, like you would see on a map such as aztec for example. In my mind these maps become DM with boundaries rather than what i would term true PCS (team based, tactic based play). They become individual focused rather than team focused. IMO the complex nature of the maps actualy deters team based play, by causing effective tactics to be overly complex to compensate. 90% of the time each player is playing their own game. There might be a co-ordinated attack in some instances but by individuals converging on one spot. (if you see what i mean). I believe this happens more by chance than planning.
To me PCS is about team play, communication and tactics. (Without this it just becomes like a public server with restrictions.) These maps IMO do not cut it on that front. I know i am not one to lead by example and formulate attacks and teamplay (not my strong point in CS), but i see myself more as a grunt willing to lay down my life and follow, but no one seems to want to lead on these maps and they are therefore IMO causing damage and harm to the PCS philosophy.
My two pence. Spend it wisely im skint. 8)
QuoteMy thoughts about Rio and for that matter the new assault map, is that although they both give a lot of opportunity for varied play and are good looking maps, I have never played on either map and had a good tactical game. What i mean by this is the attacking and to a lesser extent the defending team never seem to work properly as a team, like you would see on a map such as aztec for example. In my mind these maps become DM with boundaries rather than what i would term true PCS (team based, tactic based play). They become individual focused rather than team focused. IMO the complex nature of the maps actualy deters team based play, by causing effective tactics to be overly complex to compensate. 90% of the time each player is playing their own game. There might be a co-ordinated attack in some instances but by individuals converging on one spot. (if you see what i mean). I believe this happens more by chance than planning.
To me PCS is about team play, communication and tactics. (Without this it just becomes like a public server with restrictions.) These maps IMO do not cut it on that front. I know i am not one to lead by example and formulate attacks and teamplay (not my strong point in CS), but i see myself more as a grunt willing to lay down my life and follow, but no one seems to want to lead on these maps and they are therefore IMO causing damage and harm to the PCS philosophy.
I think that could be applied to almost any CS map that we have in the rotation ...
DE maps are more suitable for PCS as you have more than one target area. As our members are more focused on guarding the objective in comparison to a public server the cs maps usually boils down to killing the Ts and not rescuing the hostages. The main reason is that the hostages are together in the same area. If we look at the cs maps in the rotation:
cs_italy
cs_militia
cs_office
cs_rio
cs_thunder
cs_wildwest_assault
cs_shogun
The hostages are most frequently saved on office, rio and ww_assault (and shogun). It is very rare that they (all of them) are saved on the others. cs maps have always been a problem when it comes to PCS. I know when I together with Albert and WAS-clan worked on a map pack for Network42 that we really tried hard to find good hostage maps. Some of them we have tried here but rejected e.g. drugwars, france, intercerpt etc.
If we remove bitterwine, rio, ww_assault, militia, shogun, thunder, piranesi and the other hate maps we will have about 10 maps in the rotation. So ... go look for maps that work in PCS. :D Send the link for the map to TeaLeaf.
Isn't it the very idea of PCS that almost guarantees hostages will never get saved on maps like Italy?
As the T's are required to guard the Hostages closely it would only be after they had all been killed that the CT's could reach their objective. Occasionally one T may be alive but he's usually ducked outside and the CT's would never make it to the rsecue point without meeting him (or her :!: ) at some point on the map.
In non PCS play there's a greater chance that hostages will be saved as T's roam all over the map and CT's could slip by them with their hostages.
That being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's. This is no mean feat against a focused T squad. CT's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the house alive. So I would argue that Italy etc are playable as PCs maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than resue the hostages.
It is perfectly possible to steal the hossies when there are one or two Ts up by the exit to the wall paper rooms, I myself have managed this once or twice. Therefore, both objectives are equally valid, as they always have been in any form of CS, and so I think I've forgotten what I was leading up to now.
Oh yeah, so to Smilo's last point, no...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yes
QuoteThat being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's. This is no mean feat against a focused T squad. CT's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the house alive. So I would argue that Italy etc are playable as PCs maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than resue the hostages.
That being said the PCS objective of a map like Inferno is for the T's to kill all the CT's. This is no mean feat against a focused CT squad. T's would have to plan a co-ordinated attack with precise timing and use of smoke and flash grenades just to get to the bombspot alive. So I would argue that Inferno etc are playable as PCS maps if everyone understands that objectives are to eliminate the opposition rather than to plant the bomb.
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In both cases ... NO!
Thankyou Sadako, so much more eloquently put and reasoned than my reply! :D
Aren't we all agreeing on the same thing? Some maps played in a PCS stylee have objectives other than rescue or plant ?
QuoteAren't we all agreeing on the same thing? Some maps played in a PCS stylee have objectives other than rescue or plant ?
Don't think so matey - primary objectives are never about killing the opposition on a de_ or cs_ map. Only exceptions would be as_ or es_ maps, but we don't play them.
Whether it's pcs or not shouldn't make any difference
Ah so we disagree. Right well my point still stands then.
1. By the very nature of PCS play some maps have to primarily be about enemy destruction.
2. PCS rules on Italy for example almost negate the possibility of rescuing hostages without first illiminating the T force.
3. There will be occassions when hostages are rescued with T's still alive on the map, but that will be unlikely.
4. Non PCS play on a map like Italy makes it more likely, rather than less likely, that hostages will be rescued, as T's will roam across the map (through the cellar, market and apartment) making it possible for the CT's to reach the house and sneak back with the hostages in tow.
5. Therefore a successful CT force will be attempting to illiminate the T's, rather than JUST rescue hostages, in PCS play.
6. This is true of other CS_ maps as well.
7. CS_ maps therefore can still be good PCS maps even though the primary objectives cannot always be met.
8. Either way Rio sucks big
The End
The question of PCS and CS maps has been debated at length in the past. The way I like to look at it is that if the Ts are defending the hossies down to the last man who is then subsequently killed then the hostages *have* been rescued. We just didn't see it happen. :D
Smilo what you say is true in that it is far more likely for maps like italy to turn into scalp-fests with pcs rules, but nevertheless you should be looking to rescue the hossies on this map.
I've seen a number of occassions on italy in the last week where 2/3 cts started moving hossies back to rescue point. Whether they kill the last couple of Ts is inconsequential. As long as the CTs in this situation are practicing due diligence and covering the angles of possible attack then whats the problem?
If however they get to the hossies, and then abandon hossies to go scalping then they shouldn't be on MH :x
QuoteThat being said the PCS objective of a map like Italy is for the CT's to kill all the T's
Attitudes like this aren't in the spirit of an objective based game like CS, whether it's PCS or not. Shame on you :x
Rio I think is a great map - It's just that you very rarely see a decent CT team organise themselves. Hardly ever seen many back door rushes, front door rushes, or CTs providing covering fire so that guys could get in bottom floor. It's not a complex map really, especially with limits and I always look forward to it on the rotation, as CT or T
You're missing my point.
In order to rescue hostages on Italy CT's must get to them.
T's will be observing PCS rules and will be close to the hostages (i.e. in the house or on the area outside).
In order to reach the Hostages the CT's will have to engage the T's as they approach or enter the house.
Only upon resolution of the assault can CT's effectively rescue the hostages.
To resolve the assault in their favour, CT's will have to eliminate the T's.
Thus the round ends in the assumption that with all the T's dead the objective "Save the Hostages" has been met.
A CT team that accepts the fact that in order to win the round they are going to have to kill the T force is going to succeed more often than a CT force that only attempts to rescue the hostages.
An example would be that as a CT, even though I had reached the lower room in Italy, I would attempt to clear the top room before I moved hostages out. Even if I headed to the rescue point while team mates cleared the upper floor it's extremely unlikely that I would make it home before the top floor battle was resolved. Assuming the T's killed my team mates I would then have to re-take the house solo. Better to join my team-mates in the top floor assault and add to the chances of taking out the remaining T's than to disappear with two hostages and just earn a bit of cash.
PCS simulates a real world situation. I would suggest that a real SWAT team, faced with the same scenario, would plan to take down the entire Terrorist force prior to moving the hostages out.
This is the opposite to Office which, due to it's design, allows for hostage rescue to be achieved more easily than on Italy.
On Office and Shogun it is acceptable to snatch hostages and break for the rescue points.
Therefore I would suggest that the true PCS style is to accept the layout designs of the Italy map and plan an assault that recognises those designs.
Further to blindly rescue hostages without due consideration for the nature of the map being played or the state of play is unrealisitic and not in the PCS style.
Just to be the devils advocate.........is it the maps that are not pcs or are we not playing that map in a pcs way?
I find the maps a bit like Pizza....you get good one's and better one's
In theory it should not matter what the map is. It should still be possible to play it in a pcs (team) way
By using the map limits its possible to adjust the bias slightly to even up the map....or make it more interesting
The trick is to find the best maps that work for pcs.....but to tell the truth I think the maps are what a team makes of them..... :D
So i say "yes all maps are pcs but some are better than others"
I'd go further and say it's irrelevant if the map allows effective hostage rescue or not.
Italy again is a great example. As we've discussed, and I hope I've proved, it's unlikely (although not impossible) to sucessfully rescue hostages with T's still alive on the map. Therefore to win CT's must assume that they will have to kill all the T's. Once this has been realised then it's quite possible to act in a PCS manner.
To be honest on such a T biased map it's hard to see how the CT's could win without working as a team. Tonight showed this clearly. It was only by planning attacks and working as a team that the CT's won any rounds at all. In fact by playing so tight they did very well against us.
Does it honestly matter if a map makes it hard to achieve hostage rescue and forces the goal to become enemy neutralisation? I'd argue not. It's about how you play the game not what the goals are. If it allows tactical play and is fun then it works for me.
Off to bed :)
QuoteI'd go further and say it's irrelevant if the map allows effective hostage rescue or not.
Italy again is a great example. As we've discussed, and I hope I've proved, it's unlikely (although not impossible) to sucessfully rescue hostages with T's still alive on the map. Therefore to win CT's must assume that they will have to kill all the T's. Once this has been realised then it's quite possible to act in a PCS manner.
If the CTs should disregard saving the hostages and just go for the kills then there is no need to approach the house. The Ts understand that they are being sniped out goes into hiding within the house. CTs finish them off by throwing in HEs and then spamming all the walls. Job done. 100% dead Ts, 100% dead hostages, CTs win. And they live happily ever after ...
Hmm .... next round Ts realise that the CTs don't care about the hostages. Ts then move all over the map as they don't need to focus on their objective either. "Hey" shouted one of the Ts. "Let's go down to the market and cap some CTs". Brilliant idea said the others and they all rushed. In announcement voice: Welcome to dMw public hub ... :roll:
Quote2. What is objective oriented teamplay?
Short answer? Teamplay is when you work as a TEAM to complete your objectives. Your focus should be completing your objective with as little loss of life on your team as possible. Your priority should be helping your teammates first, objective second, and taking out the enemy last.
Absolutely agree. Apart from costing the CT team a fortune, killing the hostages is far from being in the PCS spirit.
The objective is always to rescue hostages and therefore ensure their survival. In order to successfully achieve that goal the CT's have to perform certain functions.
First they have to approach the house while sustaining minimum casualties. This might mean getting a fair way up the long tunnel, or making it to the safe zone under the bridge by the cellar entrance or through the apartment and up to the corner. It could also be assisted by effective long distance sniping.
Secondly they would have to assault the house and make it to the relative safety of the walls of the house. Finally they would enter the house via the door or window and deal with any remaining T's.
Thirdly once the house was clear they would be free to collect hostages and escape.
The heart of my point is that realistically by the time they completed these three steps all the T's would probably be dead. No one is on a wild solo scalp hunt. Nor do they forget the hostages and their ultimate goal of saving them. It's just that as a natural consequence of the design of Italy T elimination is almost mandatory in order to resue the hostages.
The CT team that realised the nature/limitation of the Italy map and developes tactics accordingly is going to be more succesful than one that doesn't. Part of those tactics would indeed be touching hostages and getting them back to the rescue point if the oportunity arose. I just argue that that oportunity is hardly ever going to happen.
:)
twig where is the wall paper room????? have i still not found a place on this map that i have been playing for years?????
The wallpaper room = the apartmenty bit which (as CT) you climb the crates and jump in the window to get in, and it comes out at the far end of the House.
aka the house route.
TL. 8)
On an italy note, it would be so much better if you could get on the balconys and run along outside the house route.
But I see what SMilo is saying, to rescue the T's, if the T's are playing PCS then you pretty much have to kill them.
I like de_cobble though.