After waiting 30,mins for a slot on the CoD server tonight, I left after about 15 mins, I tried to get some teamwork going but it was just a heap of people doing their own thing. Nobody covered anyone else, there was very little comms and, TBH, it sucked :(
I'm off to play some CoD on a public :(
Sorry you had a bad time bb.
Couple of things that may help and this is for everyone. If your team lacks direction. step up too the plate and take command. nearly every member of dMw will take orders, if someone is willing to give them.
There are step a foot to hopefully improve our tactical play. so bare with me on that one.
You were on the wrong team mate. We were tacticaling away like anything! :D
Quote from: Armitage;254105Sorry you had a bad time bb.
Couple of things that may help and this is for everyone. If your team lacks direction. step up too the plate and take command. nearly every member of dMw will take orders, if someone is willing to give them.
There are step a foot to hopefully improve our tactical play. so bare with me on that one.
To be fair, BB did try to take command. He had the bomb and said he was going left through the tunnels, I said I was right behind him but we both died and there was no one else in our team with us. The same thing happened to me earlier on the same map, when I had the bomb and was asking for support. We did get better on the next map with more use of the voice comms and some co-ordinated attacks but it was still fragmented.
I hope we can get the tactics and teamplay going on CoD4 as it just seems like a frag server most of the time.
My post above was a bit flippant and you do have a valid point. I was a little disappointed to be capturing a HQ and asked for someone else to help me speed it up, but they were all outside playing. :sideways: Still, good games on the whole. :)
Quote from: BlueBall;254097After waiting 30,mins for a slot on the CoD server tonight, I left after about 15 mins, I tried to get some teamwork going but it was just a heap of people doing their own thing. Nobody covered anyone else, there was very little comms and, TBH, it sucked :(
I'm off to play some CoD on a public :(
This is the main reason I stopped playing CoD4 on our server a few months back. Haven't changed much seems.
Well, it is a much more fast paced game than CS, especially when respawning all the time.
Personally, I agree with BB, I have seen little teamplay on CoD, and I too lack the back-up wanted when capturing/planting bombs.
The game is more for the solo-player, and it seems to be hard to be teamplaying.
Still, I know I am trying to work as a team, and I know many other dMwers I have played with also do tacticals. Imho, I think theres only a few people not playing tactical, and thus ruining the game for many.
That said, I think it is hard telling people to play tactical and not frag etc, especially when we as admins cant spectate the suspected persons. And for the public server, its hard to see if people are cheating etc when not being able to see their gameplay.. Is there a way to let admins spectate when dead or something? (sorry, not trying to knick the thread..)
I think that it's the in-game comms that are partly at fault for the lack of teamplay/comms.
If we tried TS or Vent sometime, It may improve the situation.
I always use auto select when joining, but I'm going to try suggesting at map-change, that we stick with the same team-mates for the next map to try improving teamwork.
just a couple of thoughts.
I love the game personally and would be sad to lose regulars due to lack of teamplay:crying:
It's not THAT bad for goodness sake! It's not CS, it can't be played like CS. True, sometimes comms are a bit lacking but let's not make it out to be worse than it is. :sideways:
Quote from: Blunt;254162I always use auto select when joining, but I'm going to try suggesting at map-change, that we stick with the same team-mates for the next map to try improving teamwork.
That's a good idea
Quote from: Doorman;254171It's not THAT bad for goodness sake! It's not CS, it can't be played like CS. True, sometimes comms are a bit lacking but let's not make it out to be worse than it is. :sideways:
I don't think anyone expect it to run like CS BUT considering the style of play being supported in dMw one would expect at least some teamplay. I thought that was a requirement. Guess I was wrong then. :eyebrow:
Quote from: Dr Sadako;254179Guess I was wrong then. :eyebrow:
Got to be a first time. :eyebrow:
C'mon - we do try to play tactically but it can be quite difficult when you spawn either away from the action or smack bang in the middle of the action.
When calls for support come, we should be providing that support - and sometimes that means providing cover and others it means getting to help cap the HQ, and to be fair most of the time it happens.
It can be very difficult to prove people aren't playing tactically, especially as trying to flank and surprise the enemy is a perfectly valid tactic.
^^ Wot he said. :) Now let's play nicely. :D
I have seen a mixture of good teamwork and fragging, so I have come up with a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel, which is to have 'squad leaders', at least one on each side, could work well with search and destroy. However I can see this as being difficult to arrange / manage etc and may not be a good solution in which case this may very well be a typical Baldrick type plan :g:
I find teamwork is actually more map-and game-type dependent than anything else. Bloc, for instance, was the worse map for teamwork in any way, shape or form. Ambush I find is great for teamwork.
ATEOTD some maps just lend themselves more to working as a team than others. The same can be said with game types.
spawning is an issue - if you spawn back at base and the bomb is 3/4 off the way to the bomb point you ain't gonna be able to catch up and support it no matter what. I always head towards the bombsite - perhaps on the otherside of the map so I can give covering fire but I have n o doubt that could be construed at not supporting.
VC's are hard. On Monday I was so pee'd off that no one was talking on vc and basically ignoring me. The fact that one of the dials on my medusa had slid to 0 and was therefore cutting it out all voice comms was immaterial :whistle:.
PEN
I need to work out how to tell which map I am on in the first place I guess.
TL.
Quote from: Penfold;254246I find teamwork is actually more map-and game-type dependent than anything else. Bloc, for instance, was the worse map for teamwork in any way, shape or form. Ambush I find is great for teamwork.
I said this already when we set up the server. Some maps are made with only DM in mind. Most of the maps are very linear and small. It works great in singleplayer but not in multiplayer. The "problem" is that if we move on to custom maps the teamplay will be better as the maps are better but it will no longer be ranked. I would rather have good teamplay than a ranked server.
Quote from: Dr Sadako;254254I said this already when we set up the server. Some maps are made with only DM in mind. Most of the maps are very linear and small. It works great in singleplayer but not in multiplayer. The "problem" is that if we move on to custom maps the teamplay will be better as the maps are better but it will no longer be ranked. I would rather have good teamplay than a ranked server.
Never having ranked in any game before (I didn't play BF2 on ranking servers), I really enjoyed getting new perks and weapons on CoD4.
If we don't have a ranked server, what happens to the perks we've already gained? Will we still have UAV jammer and silent running for instance?
and what happens to the silencers and scopes?
Quote from: Blunt;254255Never having ranked in any game before (I didn't play BF2 on ranking servers), I really enjoyed getting new perks and weapons on CoD4.
If we don't have a ranked server, what happens to the perks we've already gained? Will we still have UAV jammer and silent running for instance?
and what happens to the silencers and scopes?
As far as I understand it you can set what weapons/perks that should be allowed. In a way it evens the playing field.
Regarding all the work you have done ranking you can make a backup of the player folder.
Quote from: Dr Sadako;254256Regarding all the work you have done ranking you can make a backup of the player folder.
Then do what with it? :g: Best you don't answer that. :D
Quote from: Doorman;254257Then do what with it? :g: Best you don't answer that. :D
Well, if we for example have two servers, one ranked and one unranked with custom maps, then you can copy the backup into the COD4 folder when you want to play on the ranked server.
ooh ooh I just said that in another thread.
The comms on CoD are crap, and it's our fault. The only teamwork appears to happen in twos. Pen backed me up on the snipery map whilst everyone else set up Butlins, and hopefully he saw the same in return.
On domination I'm not very good so tend to get somewhere and guard rather than go assaulting, but invariably get little response, or if I do, noone else says anything and I fell like I'm holding fort whilst others go fraggin'.
I hate the public server.
What I do need, which is another thread is a lesson on pulling the logs. I needed to last night on request from GM, but had no idea how to.
I may be oversimplifying here, but I'm not enjoying CoD and I used to. 4v4, 5v5 is ok, but once the numbers swell it's crap. CS had a similar period then got better, but at the moment with so many reg's who apparently can't be arsed I'm finding it frustrating. There's a modicum of teamwork in L4D, again maybe that's the restricted numbers on the sides.
The only enjoyment I had last night on CoD was when most of my team was dead and it was me and one or two others alive on a plant/defuse match. It meant we could talk and try a few plans. (admittedly in failure)
Then we restart, someone sprints for the bomb, shouts 'A' then we all toddle off wherever we feel like and do whatever. It's a Dave Lee that it's come to me ranting, it's not that usual but I want this game to work here and I really feel like it isn't.
I know, it's a repeat. But I played last night, tried a couple of times to instigate some team talk, type, work....minimal responses.
My comms are quiet I believe, hence the typed attempt. Not a sausage of response. The opposing team at one point were playing well, co-ordinated attacks on HQ. We were shambolic.
I said as much at the time, but to me it feels like a run and gun game. The respawn means that no-one cares if they die, particularly apparent in bog or any HQ game. There's no cause to stay alive.
The opposite end of the spectrum is the people who don't assist and sit back racking up enough for an airstrike, then a chopper. Not contributing to the team objective on the front line, sitting racking up kills for bonuses doesn't strike me as conducive to fun.
There are exceptions but unless 'everyone' who wants to play it properly - and there are a few - stops and makes people listen as a team, it's not going to get better. I'm happy to speak up, but there is no point if no-one else feels the same.
Finished. I've forgotten the rest.
I've played on servers where the respawn time is stretched and you are only allowed to fire with your gun up in the aiming position, that seemed to encourage teamwork a bit more.
Unless CoD4 is limited to 4-5 players a side to my mind it's never going to be team orientated in the same way that CS is. What it should be and by and large it is, at least on the private server, objective orientated. I'm happy with that as long as people don't go fragging for it's own sake, or ignoring the bomb in order to go fragging. I'm probably missing something when I say the spawn points seem very haphazard to me. :blink: It's hard not to spawn kill when an enemy pops up in front of you while you're guarding a bomb site or whatever. What do you do? Let him turn round and kill you?
When someone like OldBloke says, with not a little despair in his voice, "I wish I could find a way to get some teamwork this game. :sad:" you know it's a tricky job. :g:
As I see it, the game is what it is and unless we can make it so that when you're dead, you're dead then we play it the way it is, but with the objective being paramount.
Good luck CoD4 admins. :)
A fair bit of moaning in this thread with very few solutions. Lets try and make things better, just using comms to moan about the lack of tactics or just playing on publics will not help!
Big maps or fewer people seem to be it. But to be honest I don't see how 16 people running around a larger map will help. Ron is right 5v5 is probably the optimal team size. but there is still no way of getting traditional dMw team play, The only day we have 8v8 is on a Monday and people end up queuing for that. so I think it's better we get as many on the server as possible.
I think we are trying to apply the CS idea of teamwork and tactics to COD. I'm not to sure what we are doing is that wrong. The only thing I think we should do is talk more. I do try (I am one of the people to grab the bomb at the start of a round and shout "right to A" But what else can one do. COD is a very fast game as there are respawns there is no point sneaking around and get a kill every 5 minutes. as they are back in the game after 20 seconds. it's better to run in and take 3 or 4 of them with you so you team can push on.
Bog HQ was mentioned and I think we have some cracking tactic on this one. even if you don't know your doing them.
First thing to remember. YOU ONLY SCORE WHILE YOU HOLD THE HQ. kills/deaths have no bearing on you team score.
Tactics as I see them.
Defending team
70% of team wide defense, Find any little sniper spot you can and do what ever necessary to stop them getting near HQ
30% of team on close defense, plant claymores and keep out of the way of thrown grenades
Attacking Team.
Basic one this. Get to the HQ as quick (run, run, run) as you can*. your life is a lot cheaper here if you can get a 1:1 kill ratio you have done well. Once all the enemy have been killed. It only takes one to cap the HQ, better to send the rest of the team out to try and cover as many on the HQ spawn points as possible.
* does not mean all run in a straight line. Remember they may have a wide defense so send a couple to sweep around the back.
as I said I think we do this already the only thing wrong is lack of comms and I see a lot of this is to do with not being able to describe the location on the map easily. I Have just started to name maps, I have started BOG anyway. if any one fancy grabbing a jpeg of the web and start naming. let me know, so we don't double up.
if you have better idea lets have them. with competition starting soon we will need all the help we can get.
I don't disagree with a lot of your post. That said when we played the office'y type one and bog to a certain extent in the earlier days, comms was key.
I appreciate the points of flanking, wide defence etc, but *no-one* is talking. There is zero point in all of your side not defending close, and vice versa. Often on Dom I will state I'm covering an already capped flag, no-one else does the same. If we all make the effort on the comms we will all benefit.
If with 8 players you have two per flag on dom and two roaming I'm fairly sure you'd win it. We don't, we have 8 roaming cowboys and the odd indicator that teamwork is there. It's those little instance that make it worth it.
I like the idea of 2 per flag and 2 where they are needed. But there is a problem with that tic tac and it's all the games fault.
we are defending A and doing a fine job. I am killed. you are now solo. I respawn at C miles from you I run as quick as i can to A. but now you are dead, you now spawn at B and try and and get to me. but I am dead. We are just wasting time. If we could select a spawn point like our old friend BF2 it would work. COD falls down here.
4@A (4@A) and 4@B (4@B) and let stuff C works better IMHO
So would the obvious answer not be to say...
2 per flag, if you die on a flag, your roamers head that way, wherever you spawn you guard and the ones that you spawn near become your roamers.
It's all about comms. I spawn, I say I'll cover here.
Someone alive says 'heading to A, need someone to pick up B'
Or need assistance, or help, or I'm over here.
Our comms are attrocious, that is fixable.
As has been stated on numerous occassions, comms is most definitely the key to success on CoD4 and with us looking at joining ED we are definitely going to have to improve in that area.
It has been alot of finding your feet, getting to grips with the game, but now we should all be making the effort to use the comms effectively and hopefully that will encourage everyone else to use the comms to.
I think it is also important to remember that this game cannot be played using CS:S rules - it doesn't fit - that doesn't mean we shouldn't be playing an objective based game.
I know people don't like some of the maps because they feel they can't be played tactically - personally I think there is only one map that can't be played tactically and that's Killhouse. Bloc is an extremely tactical map - yes people snipe (its a valid tactic) so you adjust, use your comms, spot where they are, etc....
This has turned into a bit of a rant, sorry folks :getmecoat:
Call that a rant? Pfft. :D
Anyone who played tonight got a great example of poor teamwork:eyebrow:
Quote from: Armitage;255329Anyone who played tonight got a great example of poor teamwork:eyebrow:
Which map? For the most part I thought the comms were good and the teamwork was pretty good too, apart from the TKs...
I'm talking about some of our guests.
Quote from: Armitage;255343I'm talking about some of our guests.
So you're talking 'Public'? What do you expect?
Ok, I'll name and shame - sCs|SpYdR was a bit of a tit. But once we'd told him that we were just trying to get him to respect our rules, he settled down.
His voice comms were non-existent, but I don't think English was his first language.
Unfortunately, finding plonkers like that is the nature of a public server...
That was the one. :ranting2:
I found being polite infuriated the hell out of him :devil: but our stance didn't change - e.g. no bunny hopping, no glitching (which to be fair, he asked whether he could - was told no and he didn't).
He whinged a number of times about us telling him how to play, but hey ho!
Quote from: target;255356I found being polite infuriated the hell out of him :devil: but our stance didn't change - e.g. no bunny hopping, no glitching (which to be fair, he asked whether he could - was told no and he didn't).
He whinged a number of times about us telling him how to play, but hey ho!
glitching? Wassat?
Glitching is finding a map bug and exploiting it - there is at least one bug on the City Streets map
Just to be a mary, I found last night pretty good. There were some cocks, but generally I thought there was some good teamwork. The city bomb map changed that and it became a frag, but until then I enjoyed it.
Faith in future has now been duly adjusted to 23%
I'm like a bad penny. Sorry.
I go through fits and starts in games so flit in and out. CS will no doubt be next on my return list. I tried some CoD last night with a lot of regulars and I wanted to check whether my views were aligned with that of dMw.
One map in particular....
Creek. I like this map, it's got options, it's like paintball on a nice scale, and wait for it, here comes the questions.
1. I don't think it's suited to sabotage, I've not seen one won yet, it's stalemate, then whoever has the UAV up wins. (generally).
2. Teamwork, I know it's a rehash, but on sabotage, is the point not to get the bomb, go plant it and cover it? I did enjoy last night, but, with the bomb in it's usual place, sniper alley, it was yo-yo'ing back and forward for a bit as one member from each side, ruched grabbed, got 10 feet, died.
When I died I thought I'd have a look around, see where my buddies were. One was in the tunnel, racking up kills as the enemy ran past the canyon side entrance. He looked comfy, given the choice of following the objective and getting my face blown off, or camping behind a rock picking off stragglers to get a chopper....tough choice, but not dMw in my opinion.
Secondly on next map, Strike I noticed defenders picking people off at the corner of the shop and Taliban avenue. (Nice link this - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2022/2086267359_35669677a5_o.jpg)
So here's the question. How lose are we on boundaries? It always ebbs and flows as it did with CS, but this seemed like pushing it to me, in comparison to how it was when I was a little more regular a few months back. People will always push the extra few yards, but where do we draw the line? It snowballs, "I was only just past where dMw-XYZ was last round".
I didn't like being picked off by Armitage as I approached the bomb through Taliban Avenue, (north to south), but understand that's a valid tactic. pushing on defense, in my opinion is not.
I appreciate I'm an admin, but I wanted consensus before I did anything as I want to go back to playing the game I really enjoyed and I'm struggling at present.
Map tags -
http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=172982
Quote from: target;255359Glitching is finding a map bug and exploiting it - there is at least one bug on the City Streets map
Here is ED statement on what Glitching is:
QuoteMap Bugs, it is not permitted to take advantage of a map bug to get inside an object that is clearly designed to not be accessible (Clipping). It is also not permitted to use a position that enables you to see through a texture or object that cannot be seen through from other directions (Glitching).
Quote from: BlueBall;257328Here is ED statement on what Glitching is:
How does one police that?
Quote from: Doorman;257338How does one police that?
I would suspect the same way you do it in CS. Either an admin overlooks the match and looks at the regular glitch spots or viewing a demo after the match,
Sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't realise it was match stuff.(note to self: read thread properly) I meant in a general server way. i.e. you can check if some is using an aim bot(for instance) and kick him or ban him. Can you see this stuff in game? "Hey that guy's using a glitch, kick him!" Kind of thing.:)
Aim Bots should be caught by Punkbuster
You would need to know where the glitches were in order to catch someone. I could probably google it but CBA at the mo :)
Benny, Strike S&D is not in our normal rotation and was on last night because we had it in a match. So on that map I was having a look around. I think I must have been camped out in Saddams House, which gives you a view of Taliban Av and snipe the bomb site at the market place. so I would say that was in bounds. I all so went round da hood to there spawn as a flanker a couple of times. which I would say was certainly out of bounds. (but worked and maybe could be used if we play it in a match again)
I don't think we need to set fixed boundaries as we are all good at keeping a defense. to many year playing PCS.
Quote from: Armitage;257364Benny, Strike S&D is not in our normal rotation and was on last night because we had it in a match. So on that map I was having a look around. I think I must have been camped out in Saddams House, which gives you a view of Taliban Av and snipe the bomb site at the market place. so I would say that was in bounds. I all so went round da hood to there spawn as a flanker a couple of times. which I would say was certainly out of bounds. (but worked and maybe could be used if we play it in a match again)
I don't think we need to set fixed boundaries as we are all good at keeping a defense. to many year playing PCS.
Having re-read what I done wrote, it's come out wrong. I thought your position was fine...there were people further out than you, I may not have liked you shooting me, but accept that was my fault. The sniper in the tunnel on the other map hummed a little....that wasn't you either.