As you know we have started to use the waiver:
__________________________________________________ ____
HOLD HARMLESS AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK AGREEMENT
Section I, Definition of Terms
For the purposes of this document, the following terms shall be used: The LANParty, also referred to as a “computer gaming event†or “event†is officially known as the dMw LAN gaming weekend
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The location is the physical location of the LANParty, held at: The Oliver Cromwell Hotel, March, Cambridgeshire
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The website is the official Internet location for information for attendees regarding the LANParty.
It is located at: http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/index.php
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Section II
I hereby acknowledge that I desire to participate in the computer gaming event which is entitled and defined in section I as “the LANParty†at “the locationâ€. I also acknowledge that my decision to participate in the LANParty is totally voluntary and is solely for the purpose of my pursuit of recreational activities that I enjoy.
I agree that I am fully aware of the risks and hazards inherent in entering the premises and/or in participating in the LANParty and hereby elect to voluntarily enter upon said premises, knowing the present condition and knowing that said condition may become more hazardous and dangerous.
I, the undersigned, hereby assume all risk of illness or injury in the LANParty in which I voluntarily participate. For and in consideration of permission to participate in the LANParty, I hereby irrevocably and forever release, discharge, waive and hold harmless the LANParty and its officers, directors, employees, sponsors and agents (collectively referred to as “the hostsâ€) from any and all claims, losses, causes of action and liabilities of any kind (including attorneys’ fees) arising out of or relating in any way to the LANParty.
I voluntarily waive any claims that I might have against the hosts, and I understand and agree that the hosts assume no responsibility or liability for any injury to persons or property (including property that is lost, stolen or damaged), that may occur during the LANParty.
I agree that I have read and will follow all official rules which are posted on the website and at the LANParty. I further agree that during the LANParty I shall conduct myself in an appropriate fashion and I shall not behave poorly by violating rules, performing harmful acts, using profanity, obscenity or any otherwise objectionable conduct towards any person or property involved with the LANParty. I recognize and understand that the hosts reserve the right to require cessation of any such activity and the hosts, in their sole discretion, may require my removal from the LANParty, without any refund of any kind.
I agree that I am at least 18 years of age. I agree this instrument, in its entirety, is intended by me to be binding upon my heirs, executors, administrators, agents and/or assigns.
Now I'm pretty sure this isn't legally binding unless it's signed etc.
How do people feel about me taking some along to the LAN and getting people to sign up. We could make it so that it's ongoing and therefore people would only have to sign it once and not each time. Over the top or worthwhile?
We'll also go ahead and get our public Liability Insurance again. If more than 33 people attend (ie. 100 people over 3 days) the price will go up to around £75.
Quote from: Penfold;264801... How do people feel about me taking some along to the LAN and getting people to sign up. We could make it so that it's ongoing and therefore people would only have to sign it once and not each time. Over the top or worthwhile?
Do it I say. No point in doing this unless we feel we've covered all the angles.
Quote from: Penfold;264801... Over the top or worthwhile?
Have a guess what I think. :angry: What happens if someone refuses to sign? Is he denied entry?
I don't know what's going on round here. This is a forum for gamers, yet logging on in the morning is getting more like going to work, than going to work was! The rules and regulations are piling up quicker than I can read them! Lighten up for crying out loud!
I was kinda hoping that Ron may have missed this post.
:roflmao:
PS. Seriously though, apart from yourself, I can't think of anyone that wouldn't sign. It's a one-off to cover all future events.
You posted the disclaimer in the sign up thread and the people who signed up should have read it. I think it's overkill having the individuals sign it in ink. If we do expect everyone to sign it then it has to be made clear prior to the LAN :2cents:.
Is this not mates getting together in a hotel to play games? Someone books the place on everyone's behalf and we all turn up get drunk and play PC games. Then we go home. So I vote over the top.
Don't see how it's any different from what we're trying to do to protect ourselves on the forum tbh Smilo.
Unfortunately I think we're big enough to be a target. I hate the damn disclaimer, I think it is an insult and I hate the system that means some think it necessary, but then I'm the type of person that would never sue dMw if the **** hit the fan. Others however are not of that considerate and well-meaning type.
I think that having reached the conclusion that insurance is necessary we have already crossed a (necessary) line. We have acknowledged the existence of a legal risk to us as the people running dMw. Smilo I am sure would agree that a written signature is more secure than an assumed acceptance via the forums, so if we think the insurance is justified, then surely it follows that we do it right.
I therefore do not see a problem in asking for confirmation of the disclaimer, however much I hate it. :angry:
I would however put it up in the booking thread and make damn sure it is linked from the booking thread and that people know it is to be signed when they get there.
TL.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;264839...I think that having reached the conclusion that insurance is necessary...
TL.
I never reached that conclusion. I objected to it as I object to this latest nonsense.
And protect ourselves from what on the forum? We're going mad. This world is mad enough and it's now elbowing it's way in here, where I always thought was a refuge from idiocy.
The question hasn't been answered, if someone refuses to sign are they denied entry?
Quote from: Doorman;264863I never reached that conclusion. I objected to it as I object to this latest nonsense.
And protect ourselves from what on the forum? We're going mad. This world is mad enough and it's now elbowing it's way in here, where I always thought was a refuge from idiocy.
The question hasn't been answered, if someone refuses to sign are they denied entry?
Yes. It's my head (along with TL's) that's on the line and, depending on who the courts decide are the administrators of dMw, possibly yours too.
We spent considerable time finding out if we would be liable for any claims made for injury whilst attending an event that we had organised. The answer came back YES. This is a sensible precaution to alleviate that worry and it was agreed by the majority of the SHs.
QuoteI am fully aware of the risks and hazards inherent in entering the premises and/or in participating in the LANParty.
[/COLOR][/FONT]
What are the
risks and hazards?
Just a word from Mrs. Armitage.
There is no point in having people sign on the day and acknowledgement on the website will be enough.
But in her words is "if someone wants to sue for some reason, the wavier isn't going to save us.
I'm bored with this now. It's all too much effort than it's worth and it's taking up far too much head space.
Perhaps it's a good time to step down.
Any takers?
I've been convinced. Get people to sign when they arrive. It can't hurt and as Oldie says we might be grateful for it some day. Once it's done then it's done and we can get on with the fun. Ohh a rhyme :)
Thread moved here as some of the content is more suited to this area of the forum.
Quote from: OldBloke;264870Yes. It's my head (along with TL's) that's on the line and, depending on who the courts decide are the administrators of dMw, possibly yours too.
We spent considerable time finding out if we would be liable for any claims made for injury whilst attending an event that we had organised. The answer came back YES. This is a sensible precaution to alleviate that worry and it was agreed by the majority of the SHs.
I'm loathed to bring this up again and face the abuse but I know it's still outstanding.
As per the CL's instructions I'm going to progress this. It may or may not be a pointless exercise but for the sake of a bit of paper so be it. I'll have a look online to see whether I can get the wording together.
We'll try and word it so that people only have to sign it once. If anyone has any ideas on the wording then please say speak up :).
In a day or so I'll post the fact that people will be asked to sign a disclaimer in the LAN booking thread so people are aware.
I'd really appreciate it if you guys could back me up and not just get out the tar and feathers and join the baying mob.Thanks
As before you have my full support on this and my thanks for the effort that's gone into it. Make it so ... no flak jacket required. :thumb:
Ditto.
TL.
Ditty.
or 'o'. Good work gents.
as always you have my support guys.
i along with i assume all others wish we didnt have to but it is the way of the world.
Im sure that we had to sign disclaimers when i attended (along with tutonic and frenzy) and "i" series lan many years ago.
I've seen Doggers is joining the thread. I've tried a different tactic and we'll see what happens.
I've heard back from the Lawyer friend. He's tweaked the current disclaimer and done some legalise that I totally don't understand. Here is the revision:
Hi Gid,
I've made a few small changes but otherwise it looks fine to me. I've
also added an English law and jurisdiction clause - although you should
perhaps just check that this does not contradict any other law and
jurisdiction clause in the rest of the agreement which I haven't seen.
QUOTE
DISCLAIMER
Section I, Definition of Terms
For the purposes of this document, the following terms shall be used: The LANParty, also referred to as a “computer gaming event” or “event” is officially known as the dMw LAN gaming weekend
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The location is the physical location of the LANParty, held at: The Oliver Cromwell Hotel, March, Cambridgeshire
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The website is the official Internet location for information for attendees regarding the LANParty.
It is located at: http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/index.php
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Section II
I acknowledge that I desire to participate in the computer gaming event
which is entitled and defined in section I as "the LANParty" at "the
location". I also acknowledge that my decision to participate in the
LANParty is entirely voluntary and solely for the purpose of my pursuit
of recreational activities that I enjoy.
I agree that I am fully aware of the risks and hazards inherent in
entering the premises and/or in participating in the LANParty and hereby
elect voluntarily to enter upon said premises, knowing the present
condition and knowing that said condition may become more hazardous and
dangerous.
I, the undersigned, hereby assume all risk of illness or injury in the
LANParty in which I participate. In consideration of permission to
participate in the LANParty, I hereby irrevocably and forever release,
discharge, waive and hold harmless the LANParty and its officers,
directors, employees, sponsors and agents (collectively referred to as
"the hosts") from any and all claims, losses, causes of action and
liabilities of any kind (including legal fees) whatsoever and howsoever
arising out of or relating in any way to the LANParty, including claims
in negligence. I confirm that this is a continuing disclaimer covering
each and every dMw LAN gaming weekend and event.
I agree that I have read and will follow all official rules which are
posted on the website and at the LANParty. I further agree that during
the LANParty I shall conduct myself in an appropriate fashion and I
shall not violate rules, perform harmful acts, use illegal or pirated
software or seek to transfer/copy software across our network. Nor will
I use profanity, obscenity or any otherwise objectionable conduct
towards any person or property involved with the LANParty. I recognise
and understand that the hosts reserve the right to require cessation of
any such activity and the hosts, in their sole discretion, may require
my removal from the LANParty.
I confirm that I am at least 18 years of age. I agree this instrument,
in its entirety, is intended by me to be binding upon my heirs,
executors, administrators, agents and/or assigns.
This disclaimer is governed by English law, and the High Court in London
has exclusive jurisdiction to determine any and all disputes arising
hereunder.
UNQUOTE
Disclaimers like this are very effective in practice. As well as
signing, it would be sensible to get them to print their names, and to
date the disclaimer once they've signed it.
Because I'm sending this on a work email I have to make it clear
that this message is coming from me and not from *********** - and of course that I also disclaim all liability!!
etc
sorry for not getting back to you pen. but just been chatting to the MRS. and I don't want to come across negative, so this is me being constructive.
my input
"I agree that I have read and will follow all official rules which are
posted on the website and at the LANParty. I further agree that during
the LANParty I shall conduct myself in an appropriate fashion and I
shall not violate rules, perform harmful acts, use illegal or pirated
software or seek to transfer/copy software across our network. Nor will
I use profanity, obscenity or any otherwise objectionable conduct
towards any person or property involved with the LANParty. I recognise
and understand that the hosts reserve the right to require cessation of
any such activity and the hosts, in their sole discretion, may require
my removal from the LANParty."
there is not going to be anyone left by the time we tuck in to our steaks. lol.
Mrs input
If we are going to do it properly, we need to do a H&S risk assessment. as we will need to show we have done our bit (that's me paraphrasing).
Theft is the other bit she (my good lady) flagged. I take it that our insurance now covers our kit for theft now. but if we leave the door unlocked over night. who is responsible. can we sue last out, or an admin for being negligent. we need to think about that one.
me now.
worms and cans spring to mind. but as it's pen's house on the line lets do what we can.
back to my first point.
"may require my removal from the LANParty." ffs boys. a bit over the top.
LOL arm fair point. We've basically lifted it from another LAN party's disclaimer so it's their words not ours.
Couple of points:
We're NOT covered for theft. We can't insure for other people's kit only for what belongs to dMw that's why it's written the way it is. It means ppl can't claim against loss (besides it it should be covered on their own house insurance).
The lawyer was adamant about adding the whatsoever and howsoever bit of the phraseology as they're common in law. He was also adamant about the adding 'including claims of negligence' bit which covers for such negligence on our part.
The final bit is more to cover ourselves and in practice we ain't going to enforce it. The Napster ruling stated that we, as providers of the network, can be held liable if people copy illegal software/music/files across it.
Perhaps we just tone it down and insert this one line
I agree that during the LANParty I shall not use illegal or pirated software nor seek to transfer/copy copyright material across the network."
That falls in line with our AUP so I think it's OK to use?
I agree that the rest about harmful bits and removal are superfluous so I've removed them.
Dunno about the H&S Assessment having never done one, although I believe taping cables etc does mean we're trying ?
Fair points mate and thank you (and Claire) for the input.
For the sake of ease, the proposed revised draft is:
DISCLAIMER
Section I, Definition of Terms
For the purposes of this document, the following terms shall be used: The LANParty, also referred to as a “computer gaming event” or “event” is officially known as the dMw LAN gaming weekend
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The location is the physical location of the LANParty, held at: The Oliver Cromwell Hotel, March, Cambridgeshire
__________________________________________________ _________________________
The website is the official Internet location for information for attendees regarding the LANParty.
It is located at: http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/index.php
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Section II
I acknowledge that I desire to participate in the computer gaming event
which is entitled and defined in section I as "the LANParty" at "the
location". I also acknowledge that my decision to participate in the
LANParty is entirely voluntary and solely for the purpose of my pursuit
of recreational activities that I enjoy.
I agree that I am fully aware of the risks and hazards inherent in
entering the premises and/or in participating in the LANParty and hereby
elect voluntarily to enter upon said premises, knowing the present
condition and knowing that said condition may become more hazardous and
dangerous.
I, the undersigned, hereby assume all risk of illness or injury in the
LANParty in which I participate. In consideration of permission to
participate in the LANParty, I hereby irrevocably and forever release,
discharge, waive and hold harmless the LANParty and its officers,
directors, employees, sponsors and agents (collectively referred to as
"the hosts") from any and all claims, losses, causes of action and
liabilities of any kind (including legal fees) whatsoever and howsoever
arising out of or relating in any way to the LANParty, including claims
in negligence. I confirm that this is a continuing disclaimer covering
each and every dMw LAN gaming weekend and event.
I agree that during the LANParty I shall not use illegal or pirated software nor seek to transfer/copy copyright material across the network."
I confirm that I am at least 18 years of age. I agree this instrument,
in its entirety, is intended by me to be binding upon my heirs,
executors, administrators, agents and/or assigns.
This disclaimer is governed by English law, and the High Court in London
has exclusive jurisdiction to determine any and all disputes arising
hereunder.
Is this better? any more thoughts on it?
Only thing not sure about is the High Court bit at the bottom. Not seen that mentioned exclusively as the home of jurisdiction before in addition to the normal 'English law' comment. To my non-legal eye it implies that the usual lower courts and the House of Lords have no jurismydiction. I would have thought that a specific mention is not needed but am unclear as to how to word it if it is removed. Maybe:
QuoteI agree that this disclaimer is governed by English law, and that English Law has exclusive jurisdiction to determine any and all disputes arising hereunder.
I think that is much improved and would run with it.
Having to do this makes me a little depressed but I see the need for it and support it. So let's not allocate this too mch headspace....
TL.
worth a look,
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/principles.htm
i'll try and have a read later too.
We still have the line about pirated software when we are clearly promoting leeching.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;269943We're only upgrading the network to cope with your leeching anyway. :norty:
TL.
Leeching might also be game patches and legit software files, so I think that's a bit of an overreaction.
TL.
Could you honestly say people are running a second NIC for game patches.
Most PCs have 2 NICs if not more these days.
I usually run 2 NICs at the LAN and dual NICs have been in use since LAN II as far as I am aware.
As part of previous LAN preparations we have discussed running a second IP range for file transfers for precisely that purpose.
None of these facts implies we support illegal pirated software. I am not saying it is not a contentious issue where we need to step carefully and protect ourselves, but that's precisely what the disclaimer is trying to do.
TL.