All
This thread has been created to answer any questions you might have on the announcement made here. (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=282703&postcount=118)
The changes look fine :).
I remember at the October 2008 LAN a discussion (over some whiskey i hasten to add) about how we implement new games and how we choose the section admins was brought up by Arm, Pen and Lib.
Essentially, is the finite pool the reasoning behind sometimes why we are slow to choose supported games or simply because there needs to be sufficient footing in community of those with the game to add further games to our community.
Basically what i mean is we have often kept 3 games going obviously due to server costs but aren't our servers powerful enough to run more than what they currently do at the moment?
Otherwise all seems ok to me :D
Looks fine indeed :) The only concern that pops to mind is the resurfacing issue of too much game diversity. From reading the text, I see the change aimed at making room for more potential different game admins - and thus an even greater spread of people across more games.
I hope I do not sound too melancholic and retrospective, but I do believe it is a fact, that gaming quality and member turn up on servers has dropped in tact supported games being increased. I am not sure, but to me it does not look like the actual active amount of gamers has increased with more supported games. I like the notion of a "gaming community" but I feel we are loosing the dedication to a game, which in turn makes gaming great for all players. And we are loosing this, because people are often joining the game on which there are most people to play with, rather than the game they would actually prefer. And I am not talking about "not being willing to start a game and wait for the rest"... I have done that quite a bit with CS, but the fact is, that after about an hour people spread out on LFS, L4D, WoW, COD4 and what not.
I hope my point is clear, I might be rambling...
I am not sure what the solution is to the luxurious problem of having the capacity to support many games, other than some initiative that makes more people aware of dMw, and then sort the weed from the chaff. And, imho, this should take precedent to increasing admin capacity... imho..
changes look good, im sure they will work as well as we hope.
Quote from: delanvital;282713I am not sure what the solution is to the luxurious problem of having the capacity to support many games, other than some initiative that makes more people aware of dMw, and then sort the weed from the chaff. And, imho, this should take precedent to increasing admin capacity... imho..
Probably to increase the number of members in the community so that there are always players who want to play.
The problem you describe Del is the difference between a Gaming Community and a Gaming Clan.
Something to ponder I'm sure :)
Quote from: Jabbs;282737Probably to increase the number of members in the community so that there are always players who want to play.
That is what I tried to say with the section you quoted :)
Quote from: delanvital;282713.....And, imho, this should take precedent to increasing admin capacity... imho..
We're not increasingly admin capacity more re-aligning it so to speak.
I agree that the biggest problem we face is fragmentation. As our game pool diversifies so the numbers per game decrease.
We do need to get more people into dMw but we also have high standards and do not want the run of the mill dross.
Sure we could fling open our doors to the great unwashed but I don't think any of us would want that.
Quote from: Jabbs;282737Probably to increase the number of members in the community so that there are always players who want to play.
Indeed. Our community is shrinking and will die the death of a thousand cuts unless we attract new members. The problem is two-fold:
- We are (rightly) only looking to take on people who are happy to play our way.
- We currently 'specialise' in some pretty old games.
We're not prepared to lower our standards so we are trying to attract people with the 'right stuff' by putting up public servers for the latest releases that advertise our ethos in-game. However, this has proved to be a lot more difficult than we envisaged - mainly due to some pretty poor dedicated server support from the games houses.
What I tried to say was - increase the numbers of people who come here to see what it is. Then put more emphasis on sorting the weed from the chaff. As long as enough people drop by there are potential members to work with :)
It's a separate debate really as to how we increase the membership without diluting the dMw'ness of it all. It 's a tough one :g:
Then surely to attract more members we do need to play competitively and attract players that way :) under our ethos.
I play on alot of servers and maybe what we should be looking at is more matches, more friendlies and people who have free time like myself to be recruiters.
I have recruited quite a few people for the community one of the more recent ones is Serial Thrilla.
We have a small net of games and yes games need to be active but we have our times of the year where we are busy.
We just need to build on our strengths i don't see it as the community will die without out new members without us first setting up several ways to actually recruit new blood.
i agree with everything that has been said, but saying that, i hvave too add that times are now harder for gaming clans than they were say 8 or 10 yrs ago, back then you had the big hitters like cs, ghost recon and the likes, there were a short list of games that everyone seemed to play, now though things are differant. You can go onto steam and play over 100 games online with other "real "ppl. You can play any number of MMorpg, you can play lots of differant simulator types of games.
We cant listen to the whim of every single person who plays any random number of games, im sure fiddling with chaos theroy would probably be easier, so we should carry on as before and embrace what we have. No disrepect to the racers among us but at the moment we have LFS Rfactor and some others that i have nearly bought but glad that i havent because the interest level was there for a brief moment then gone.
i feel the games we support at the moment are what we need to concentrate on for at least another 12-18 months
cs:s i hope valve continues to delevelop it especaily when HL3 comes out
lfd: lets not go there lfd 2 is valve being a money grabber
cod4: i love this game but got bored, i hope modern warfare 2 is a worthy successor
WOW: you luckey bar stewards this game is going to go forever
lfs: i love this game...just hope they can finish it b4 everyone loses interest
r factor: its good but is it as good as lfs.. who knows
i know some ppl wont agrree with some/any of this but if we diversify and support loads more than the core yes we willl get more players, but will we feel like a tight nit clan that we do now?
my 2p's worth
Like the restructuring. Hopefully it will lead to games running more autonomously. Appointment of game admins by the section admins. They're trusted to run the department. That could lead to more impromptu matches on non-dedicated nights when the map could do with a change or something else minor.
I know the number of admins is unlikely to change, but maybe moving it between a pool as people go through peaks and troughs of availability to avoid dry spells.
(just resuggesting this again while a major change is going on)
In general things are going pretty well. L4D in particular is thriving recently with Steam friends invites being used to great effect. A "sign up" board could be done for all members to list in a section if they want to be notified when a game they own is started as I imagine it is hard for say a CS:S who owns CoD 4 to get involved with that scene not getting the standard messages that are sent out etc.
That's all I can think of. The suggestions are not meant to be negative. I enjoy playing here, and using the forum. They're things which could possibly improve things, but in the bigger picture might not.
Can someone help me understand why the so-called "division of power" is with the same crew that has been running things for years now?
I know you'll most likely dismiss my comment and perhaps not find it very contructive but one of the things that frustrates me about dMw is the lack of diversity at the senior level.
You guys see fit to charge the majority for what I see as "fringe benefits" and disguise this under a "membership" of sorts. What I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.
If we are expected to pay "membership" (yes I know it's not manditory) then why as members, do we not have any say in the running of the community?
Why is there not an elected board that governs dMw and officers of the community that work for it's best interests? Why as paid members do we not have visability of the running costs of the community? Is there a treasurer that prepares a budget that is submitted for approval to the community leaders? Is there a committee that meets on a regular basis to chart the way forward for the group? Do we have a vision? Direction?
What I've seen over the last few years is continuance of the "old boys club" and failed attempts at this and then that without any direct input from the wider membership. I think this community and it's members would like to see something a little more radical than what has been proposed.
Why shouldn't we cater to a wider audience that perhaps join us for the "fun" first and then the serious second? Why can't we do both? Why can't the paid members decide?
This community could be so much more but time after time I see the same members being put forward for this and that and then six months later something different.
Where are we going as a community? Where do we want to be? Obviously "Professional" or "Mature" gamers but how is that defined?
Most of you know that I've been around for a while and I tend to challenge the norm and perhaps sing from a different hymn sheet than some (most?) of you but surely we can do better than this?
Look at the the contrasting responses from Delan, Ghosty, and Sulky. All are in support but each one of them says a different thing. Do we listen to the members? I've seen good suggestions come from the community several times and it all falls on deaf ears.
Why don't we have a Membership or PR Officer? Why don't we have a Games Committee? Why don't we have elected Officers that help chart the direction of the community?
There's enough members that have significant enough experience in business to pull it off, or are you concerned about losing control?
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811Can someone help me understand why the so-called "division of power" is with the same crew that has been running things for years now?
I know you'll most likely dismiss my comment and perhaps not find it very contructive but one of the things that frustrates me about dMw is the lack of diversity at the senior level.
This community is run by TeaLeaf and me. We trust each other implicitly to uphold the ideals that make this particular gaming community different i.e. better than the rest. We've seen the opposition and it can't hold a candle to what is provided here.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811You guys see fit to charge the majority for what I see as "fringe benefits" and disguise this under a "membership" of sorts. What I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.
If we are expected to pay "membership" (yes I know it's not manditory) then why as members, do we not have any say in the running of the community?
No-one pays membership. It's a voluntary subscription, open and transparent as it can be. I challenge you to investigate the costs involved in hosting two 2U gaming servers plus a 1U forum server and then tell me the business model you would employ to finance those costs. Don't forget to include the inevitable upgrade costs too.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811Why is there not an elected board that governs dMw and officers of the community that work for it's best interests? Why as paid members do we not have visability of the running costs of the community? Is there a treasurer that prepares a budget that is submitted for approval to the community leaders? Is there a committee that meets on a regular basis to chart the way forward for the group? Do we have a vision? Direction?
If you're not happy with this community - play elsewhere. If you're not happy with paying the voluntary subscription - don't pay it. No-one will hold it against you. There has to be added value for members who subscribe but we have always emphasised that, in-game, there is no distinction made between those that do and those that don't. Quite simply, a bunch of committed people are doing their level best to provide the best gaming experience they can.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811What I've seen over the last few years is continuance of the "old boys club" and failed attempts at this and then that without any direct input from the wider membership. I think this community and it's members would like to see something a little more radical than what has been proposed.
Why shouldn't we cater to a wider audience that perhaps join us for the "fun" first and then the serious second? Why can't we do both? Why can't the paid members decide?
This community could be so much more but time after time I see the same members being put forward for this and that and then six months later something different.
Where are we going as a community? Where do we want to be? Obviously "Professional" or "Mature" gamers but how is that defined?
Most of you know that I've been around for a while and I tend to challenge the norm and perhaps sing from a different hymn sheet than some (most?) of you but surely we can do better than this?
Look at the the contrasting responses from Delan, Ghosty, and Sulky. All are in support but each one of them says a different thing. Do we listen to the members? I've seen good suggestions come from the community several times and it all falls on deaf ears.
Why don't we have a Membership or PR Officer? Why don't we have a Games Committee? Why don't we have elected Officers that help chart the direction of the community?
We are constantly evolving. We explore and then try things. Some work - some don't. So we try something else. This latest announcement is the next 'something else'. But let me ask you something - what isn't working for you? Where are you being failed?
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811There's enough members that have significant enough experience in business to pull it off, or are you concerned about losing control?
This isn't a city corporation being run by highly paid professionals and we don't pretend to be. We are, however, committed to giving you, the members, the best gaming experience we possibly can without lowering the standards that make us what we are. That's not easy and I dare say some will think they could do it better but I can assure you that no-one is more committed to making sure that the ethos of this community is upheld than the people currently charged with doing so.
Dan. You got fooled by the name of the thread. It's not a debate, this is for peopel to agree with OBs' new plan and if you don't,
Quote from: OldBloke;282817play elsewhere
IMO, we should bring back the old 'Alpha Brava Charlie Delta' groups. If your in bravo, you can wear the tag on any game. simple.
I thought I'd put you right on a couple of points
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811You guys see fit to charge the majority for what I see as "fringe benefits" and disguise this under a "membership" of sorts. What I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.
If we are expected to pay "membership" (yes I know it's not manditory) then why as members, do we not have any say in the running of the community?
It's not possible for someone to charge someone else when that charge is not mandatory. What you're referring to is something called a voluntary contribution. Also the voluntary contribution has nothing to do with what games a person can play, when they can play them or how long they can play them for. So in effect there is zero charge for playing on the servers. It's free. The contribution gives a few extra privileges on the forum. So on the basis of them being free it's maybe not unreasonable to accept them on an 'as is' basis.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;282811Why as paid members do we not have visability of the running costs of the community? Is there a treasurer that prepares a budget that is submitted for approval to the community leaders?
I'd point out the thread HERE (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4127) that TL has been keeping pretty much up to date since 2004
Out of curiosity - is there public support (i.e. money) to properly established clubs/associations, in the UK? I know there are complications (international members would not count) but using the British LAN turnup as the basis, it would pay out around Ã,£1000 a year if dMw was a Danish thing, just for comparison, and arranging larger sponsors is much easier being a registered association.
Quote from: Jewelz^;282850IMO, we should bring back the old 'Alpha Brava Charlie Delta' groups. If your in bravo, you can wear the tag on any game. simple.
Sounds simple but this option was debated at length by all the Section Heads and discounted as the SHs thought it would lead to massive problems. Old territory and off-topic for this thread.
TL.
Hey Armitage. My comment was directed at the management not the plebs. If I wanted to hear from the monkey I would have brought bananas with me.. As the man said:
Quote from: OldBloke;282817This community is run by TeaLeaf and me.
Quote from: smilodon;282890I thought I'd put you right on a couple of points
It's not possible for someone to charge someone else when that charge is not mandatory. What you're referring to is something called a voluntary contribution. Also the voluntary contribution has nothing to do with what games a person can play, when they can play them or how long they can play them for. So in effect there is zero charge for playing on the servers. It's free. The contribution gives a few extra privileges on the forum. So on the basis of them being free it's maybe not unreasonable to accept them on an 'as is' basis.
I'd point out the thread HERE (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4127) that TL has been keeping pretty much up to date since 2004
See Above..
Also see the post that you quoted which clearly states "not manditory"
Also I've reviewed the recount of what the community funds have been spent on. So while you see fit to specifically slice my post into manageable pieces for your ego, perhaps you can tell me where in the thread quoted there's a budget? Let me know if you want me to define budget for you.. :g:
can i suggest moving this to the subscribed section or to the mods section, as any person wanting to join and seeing this thread may not want to
laundry sometimes need to be done with the washing machine door closed to stop spilliage's
Quote from: sulky_uk;283007can i suggest moving this to the subscribed section or to the mods section, as any person wanting to join and seeing this thread may not want to
laundry sometimes need to be done with the washing machine door closed to stop spilliage's
It wouldn't be an open 'debate' then would it?
Quote from: OldBloke;282817This community is run by TeaLeaf and me. We trust each other implicitly to uphold the ideals that make this particular gaming community different i.e. better than the rest. We've seen the opposition and it can't hold a candle to what is provided here.
Oldie, let's take this offline. I can see from the timing of your post that might have swayed your comment. While I agree that the ethos that makes dMw unique is appealing but if it was better than the rest people would be flocking here to play.
Also,
and this is to all you guys on the defensive, my comments while challenging were meant to be constructive. If I didn't give 2 penny's why would I stick my neck out like this?
Quote from: OldBloke;282817No-one pays membership. It's a voluntary subscription, open and transparent as it can be. I challenge you to investigate the costs involved in hosting two 2U gaming servers plus a 1U forum server and then tell me the business model you would employ to finance those costs. Don't forget to include the inevitable upgrade costs too.
I accept your challenge. I'll have a proposal for you and TL by August 16th. I'd have it sooner but I'm off for a week's holiday tomorrow. Let me know if you're not really serious so I don't waste my time.
Quote from: OldBloke;282817If you're not happy with this community - play elsewhere. If you're not happy with paying the voluntary subscription - don't pay it. No-one will hold it against you. There has to be added value for members who subscribe but we have always emphasised that, in-game, there is no distinction made between those that do and those that don't. Quite simply, a bunch of committed people are doing their level best to provide the best gaming experience they can.
I'm genuinely surprised with your level of definsiveness. I like dMw alot. I think it could be much better / bigger. I'd like to help. You of all people should know that I've never had a problem with paying my share as well as volunteering to help out at the LAN's etc. Anything you've ever asked me to do I've done without hesitation.
Telling me to play elsewhere is quite shocking to be honest.
Quote from: OldBloke;282817We are constantly evolving. We explore and then try things. Some work - some don't. So we try something else. This latest announcement is the next 'something else'. But let me ask you something - what isn't working for you? Where are you being failed?
Where do you get your input from? Is it just the usual network of input or is there more of a strategy to the exploration? I don't see you approaching the community to ask us what
we want that's why I'd like to know. That's why I'd like the community to participate in the direction we take the community. If it's easier to run this as a dictatorship of sorts then just let me know.
I'd like to see more of a base of players to be honest. That's not a failure, just a shortcomming.
I'd like to see more variety of mod's and games. Why can't we have "fun" servers that attract a mixture of experience and backgrounds? We could always lock down the private servers to those that abide by the ethos of the greater community.
I'd like to turn up at 10 at night and see full servers whouldn't you?
Quote from: OldBloke;282817This isn't a city corporation being run by highly paid professionals and we don't pretend to be. We are, however, committed to giving you, the members, the best gaming experience we possibly can without lowering the standards that make us what we are. That's not easy and I dare say some will think they could do it better but I can assure you that no-one is more committed to making sure that the ethos of this community is upheld than the people currently charged with doing so.
If you want to keep this community the size that it is then so be it. I only want to see things bigger and better.
To all those that PM'd me, thanks for your support. The response was along the lines that I expected but I still felt compelled to say it anyway.
To all those that didn't get what I was trying to put across, let me know and I'll explain it to you 1to1.
Quote from: Doorman;283008It wouldn't be an open 'debate' then would it?
word. :)
I'm not chopping up anything and have no idea what you mean by ego?. I was just making a comment about two points you made. I didn't have anything to add regarding the many other issues you brought up, so I didn't quote those bits of your original post. I have made no comment about whether I agree with your thoughts or disagree. That wasn't the point of my post.
I was specifically referring to the idea of a 'charge' and 'membership' as well as the comment about being 'expected to pay'. As I understand it there is no 'charge' there is a contribution. No one is 'expected' to pay, 'it's voluntary'. Whether someone pays or does not pay has zero effect on their ability to play on the servers or post on the forums. You and I both payed the Ã,£12 because we chose to, not because we were forced to. If a member doesn't feel happy about making the contribution without having a more significant voice in the community then they shouldn't pay it.
Your basic idea
QuoteWhat I fail to see here is openness and transparency and often decisions are taken for the community without any consultation or discussion.
is a fair point to make, which we're all free to agree or disagree with. I'm just making the point that I don't think it's necessarily tied to any contributions/fees/ charges etc that people may make. To me it's a separate issue.
As to the budget. Well that sort of seemed pretty obvious to me. It's to cover hosting fees and the annual subscription to this forum software. that's about it. I don't want to speak for Tealeaf or Oldie but as far as I am aware there is no budget posted as there is no budget to post. I think the only other thing that our contributions were spend on was hardware. Again that's something that we clearly need to have for there to be any dMw. The old stuff was falling apart so we bought new stuff. Works for me.
why is there so much negativity?, i havent been a member of this community for long but i know for sure its the best community i have ever come accross as far as online gaming is concerned. i cant see anything wrong with any part of the community, who its run by, where the funds go, how full the servers are. what i wouldnt like to see is the community to go all "commercial". i like the guys (and gals) that are online regularly, playing the games we always play. At the end of the day we all just want to play games online, have a laugh, give each other stick etc.
I cant imagine how much work is involved in keeping a community like this up and running. some of us seem to forget when we are playing online on one of our servers (whatever game) how much effort has gone into providing it for Nothing.
like i say i havent been a member of dMw for long but i really cant see anything wrong at all. :g:
also i dont understand the problem with the donation part, am i missing something? :blink:
Quote from: smilodon;283012[...] as far as I am aware there is no budget posted as there is no budget to post. I think the only other thing that our contributions were spend on was hardware. Again that's something that we clearly need to have for there to be any dMw. The old stuff was falling apart so we bought new stuff. Works for me.
IMHO, in places like this there is a need for clarity with respect to how the members money is being spent. Also, if the cashflow is so simple it would be an easy job to construct and present a budget to subscribing members. It doesn't matter if the scenario is small and simple it is still worth making - for the sake of clarity.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010Oldie, let's take this offline.
Shouldn't that have been the end of your reply? I've already been accused of stifling debate so, again, I will comment on your points.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I can see from the timing of your post that might have swayed your comment.
Are you seriously apologising for me? I stand by my comments totally despite the late hour they were posted.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010While I agree that the ethos that makes dMw unique is appealing but if it was better than the rest people would be flocking here to play.
Being a committed member of our community is much more than finding our way of play 'appealing'. It's about not wanting to play any other way. If we didn't insist that our rules on attitude and teamwork were enforced then,
you're right, we would be attracting new players in droves. The problem is that the vast majority of them would be foul-mouthed fraghunters. Sadly, the people we want to attract are few and far between but they are out there and they are finding us but, currently, not in the numbers we need. I make no apologies for repeating myself -
we will not lower our standards to attract more members.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010Also, and this is to all you guys on the defensive, my comments while challenging were meant to be constructive. If I didn't give 2 penny's why would I stick my neck out like
this?
Your post included inaccuracies that some were inclined to point out to you.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I accept your challenge. I'll have a proposal for you and TL by August 16th. I'd have it sooner but I'm off for a week's holiday tomorrow. Let me know if you're not really serious so I don't waste my time.
You've misread my challenge. Anyone can get a quote for hosting. You slated our current method so I'm challenging you to find an alternative way of funding those costs from within the community.
Enjoy your holiday :)
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I'm genuinely surprised with your level of definsiveness.
Really? It's my role to defend this community - and take the flak.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I like dMw alot.
I'm sure you do. But I also get the impression that it just doesn't 'do it' for you anymore. Apologies if I've misread that.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I think it could be much better / bigger. I'd like to help. You of all people should know that I've never had a problem with paying my share as well as volunteering to help out at the LAN's etc. Anything you've ever asked me to do I've done without hesitation.
And it's very much appreciated. TeaLeaf and I made a huge change to the community structure some time ago when it became obvious that we couldn't run the community by ourselves anymore. So we now have Section Admins who have complete control over the game they lead on and they in turn have their team of admins helping them. We can't thank them, and the volunteers like yourself, enough for the amount of time and effort they put into helping us keep the community running.[/QUOTE]
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010Telling me to play elsewhere is quite shocking to be honest.
What I actually said was 'If you're not happy with this community - play elsewhere'. We appreciate that not everyone is suited to our style of play and rules on conduct. So I would say to anyone - if you find 'our way' too restrictive then play elsewhere. I know that in the past some members have said that they often play on non-dMw public servers to get their fix of fragging. No problem with that but don't ask us to relax our rules to allow that to happen on the dMw servers.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010Where do you get your input from? Is it just the usual network of input or is there more of a strategy to the exploration? I don't see you approaching the community to ask us what we want
that's why I'd like to know. That's why I'd like the community to participate in the direction we take the community. If it's easier to run this as a dictatorship of sorts then just let me know.
We have a dedicated area of the forum where we can discuss issues with the Section Admins. There's also an area where we can discuss issues with the game admins. We tend to use the former more but we do make use of both. Any member can request a change and many do. Most of those requests are game related and, as such, are handled by the Section Admin. TeaLeaf and I have a final say only if the debate calls for it. If you re-read the management structure you'll see that our role is to police the ethos. It's the role of the Section Admin to do everything they can to grow their section and hence the wider community. If they want to poll the membership they can.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I'd like to see more of a base of players to be honest. That's not a failure, just a shortcomming.
And that's the debate we should be having as it's the biggest issue facing the community today. Perhaps someone would like to start a thread so we can explore the possibilities?
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I'd like to see more variety of mod's and games.
As I said before, we are committed to deploying new games as quickly as we can and, to that end, Whitey has recently resigned as Section Admin for CSS to allow him to concentrate on this.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010Why can't we have "fun" servers that attract a mixture of experience and backgrounds? We could always lock down the private servers to those that abide by the ethos of the greater community.
So you want dMw to host public servers where none of our rules on attitude, conduct and teamplay are enforced? No chance. There are thousands of that type of server in existance already. We will not be putting our hard-earned reputation on the line for something so counterproductive to our aims and ideals. This is Dead Men Walking - home of gamers with mature attitudes and a real desire to play as part of a team. No compromises.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010I'd like to turn up at 10 at night and see full servers whouldn't you?
Bit late for me but, yes, absolutely. However, do I want them full of lamers? No. Before I come across as too much of a preacher let me say that I'm more than happy to see some relaxation in late night playing with things like swearing and banter but, for example, it is still totally unacceptable for a member to be subjected to a torrent of swear words just bacause it's late and the booze has been flowing.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010If you want to keep this community the size that it is then so be it. I only want to see things bigger and better.
Not sure why you think I don't want the community to grow. Ye Gods, we've been harking on about it for months.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010To all those that PM'd me, thanks for your support. The response was along the lines that I expected but I still felt compelled to say it anyway. To all those that didn't get what I was trying to put across, let me know and I'll explain it to you 1to1.
Everybody is entitled to their view but the last thing we need right now is a divided community. At the end of the day we all seem to actually want the same thing - more people to play with and more games to play here at dMw. So I ask everybody to add to that debate (new thread please) so that we can hear your views on how to grow the community without compromising our ethos.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283010To all those that PM'd me, thanks for your support. The response was along the lines that I expected but I still felt compelled to say it anyway.
Well if we want an honest and open debate then will those people stand up an be counted? Post here in the open then for everyone to see. Good or Bad lets get the entire story :)
This is an interesting thread and I think some of the points raised are worthwhile. The problem is wading through the personal attacks and general mud-slinging to get to them.
Please, can everyone not make this personal. We're all adult enough and sensible enough to have a discussion without it degradating into personal slights and counter-slights.
At the end of the day we all want the same thing and have the same objective. To make sure dMw survives and thrives and continues to be the first port of call for like-minded gamers.
How we get there and how we grow the membership - without losing what makes dMw such a special place - is not an easy question and one I don't know the answer to. Frankly I wouldn't know where to start. I only play on dMw servers and would rather not play then play on some random public server.
As regards to the Community funds, I thought the current system was pretty transparant. There is currently 3 revenue streams: 1. LAN 2. Supporting members and 3. Donations.
The Donations Thread (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4127) has worked well in the past and lists all money coming in from paypal and supporting members and the LAN and what money goes out. Since I took over the LAN and the accounts I've always been scruplous about keeping the accounts and posting them up accounting for every penny. Ninja has done the previous LAN's accounts (and I hope he'll agree to continue to do them) as they were far prettier than mine. But if that's not transparent enough then I'm sure it can changed.
I know Ninja's gone camping now (gl with the weather :rolleyes:) and I'm sure thre's plenty more to be said.
Once more, let's keep it generic. Given the current mindset I'm sure I'll be abused for this post but don't expect me to get into a slanging match. We all know each other pretty well and all seem to get on remarkably well given the diversity here. I quite like the fact that I have friends ageing from 15 to 60+* and from all over Europe.
PEN
PS. If there is to be a PR officer (and it's not a bad idea) please don't make me do it!
* = edited to be more inclusive ;)
Quote from: Penfold;283054I quite like the fact that I have friends aging from 15 to 60 and from all over Europe.
That lets
me out! :)
Thanks for the words of support, Sparko. I think it's great here too :D
Quote from: Sparko;283022why is there so much negativity? ...
It's born out of frustration, IMHO. The Section Admins are fighting to keep their section popular and active but the members want new games which, when provided, are then perceived as stealing the players from the struggling section which just amplifies that section's problems. All is fixed if we can get lots of people playing lots of games.
When the team isn't doing so well, we attack the manager. That's OK because TeaLeaf and I are paid[1] to take the flak and it helps deflect the problem away from the guys running the sections.
[1] I lied about being paid :flirty:
Quote from: OldBloke;283059All is fixed if we can get lots of people playing lots of games.
OB, regarding the discussion with NF above - about getting more members and keeping the dMw standard up: I am just curious about a thing. I feel like you two are talking uhm, past each other, dunno how to say that.
You are right, that having non-dMw-standard servers attracts tons of players which we are not interested in -
per se. But! I cannot help but see this as a potential market for members. I don't see it as lowering standards. It is adding an "outer layer" to the core of what we do. I see it as attracting a market of players, which, kept outside the normal scheme of things, can bring our awesomeness (copyright, Kung Fu Panda) to their attention. I, for one, had no idea how BF2 was played when I joined but I learned. I did all the wrong things in CS, but learned. And if I can, so can others for sure :D
I am sure there are many people with a latent need for tactical gaming, we just need to show them. Having a server with people on it is a great way to attract people. If they want the dMw tags, play matches and what not, they would still have to understand and enjoy the dMw ethos. I see this as a great opportunity to increase the potential
dMw-standard players we seek. Some are hopeless, some just need to read the MOTD - and some out there might even be searching for places like ours.
I might have gotten NF wrong, but I feel he is trying to explain this point. That it is not lowering the
dMw standard. It is using our capacity to make a non-dMw gaming area, where we make it clear it is non-dMw and we advertise our playing style. Like boomer of a sort. Because you frag about you might just be ignorant. Let me know what you think?
Put differently: I would rather have the trouble of sorting the weed from the chaff, than having no cornfield at all. Wooho for an analogy ;)
Quote from: delanvital;283076OB, regarding the discussion with NF above - about getting more members and keeping the dMw standard up: I am just curious about a thing. I feel like you two are talking uhm, past each other, dunno how to say that.
You are right, that having non-dMw-standard servers attracts tons of players which we are not interested in - per se. But! I cannot help but see this as a potential market for members. I don't see it as lowering standards. It is adding an "outer layer" to the core of what we do. I see it as attracting a market of players, which, kept outside the normal scheme of things, can bring our awesomeness (copyright, Kung Fu Panda) to their attention. I, for one, had no idea how BF2 was played when I joined but I learned. I did all the wrong things in CS, but learned. And if I can, so can others for sure :D
I am sure there are many people with a latent need for tactical gaming, we just need to show them. Having a server with people on it is a great way to attract people. If they want the dMw tags, play matches and what not, they would still have to understand and enjoy the dMw ethos. I see this as a great opportunity to increase the potential dMw-standard players we seek. Some are hopeless, some just need to read the MOTD - and some out there might even be searching for places like ours.
I might have gotten NF wrong, but I feel he is trying to explain this point. That it is not lowering the dMw standard. It is using our capacity to make a non-dMw gaming area, where we make it clear it is non-dMw and we advertise our playing style. Like boomer of a sort. Because you frag about you might just be ignorant. Let me know what you think?
Put differently: I would rather have the trouble of sorting the weed from the chaff, than having no cornfield at all. Wooho for an analogy ;)
If you're talking about public servers that we control and where we ask our members to play the dMw way as a demonstration of teamwork in action (our awesomeness :)) - I'm comfortable with that. We already have servers for CSS and CoD4 that kind of do this but, in addition, they are administered to positively discourage fraghunting. Are you suggesting that the admin function could be relaxed so that our playing style is the only difference between a dMw public server and a non-dMw public server?
If, as both you and NF seem to be advocating, we have public servers where there are no restrictions and our members do not play the dMw way - how does the fact that we advertise our community's teamwork ethos within that server stack up with the fact that the tag-wearing players are failing to demonstrate anything of the kind? How long would it be before one of the members got so fed up with being TW'd that he/she started retaliating and how would that enhance our chances of attracting clean gamers?
I'm interested in hearing other people's views on this but I'm at a loss to see how a public server that bears our name and advertises our ethos can be regarded as a 'shop window' for our community when it has no redeeming features.
Whitey, when the CS servers were dying and you got a load of fresh blood in how/what did you do? I can't remember :g:.
CoD public has managed to recruit some great people - Tom Cornwall for example springs to mind. That was done by playing the way that we do and people finding us and realising that it's the way it should be played :wink:. However the people we get are few and far between with that method.
Is it better to get people like that - who see the way we play and then decide they like it or do we open the doors, let everyone in and then boot those that don't follow the rules? Personally, I'd rather we have fewer quality people than a load of ne'er-do-wells but I can see the arguments for both.
Whichever way we go, we still need to entice people on to the server and I'm not sure how that's best achieved?? Perhaps this is where we turn to those people who dare to step outside dMw and play with the gaming community elsewhere.
I notice the NeoTokyo server is getting maxed out with 22 pubbies every night... perhaps that's a good place to start?
Quote from: Penfold;283094I notice the NeoTokyo server is getting maxed out with 22 pubbies every night... perhaps that's a good place to start?
That's a server full of chancers who joined a low ping game. I can't be 'arrised to jump in there and not enjoy it with a load of screaming kids....spot the huge assumption.
Having a shop window is one thing. The other way to recruit other than advertise is for members to play elsewhere (N42, AoK?, miserable old gamers or whatever it was). That's how I got here...and a number of others.
It used to be posts in the newsgroups, nowadays it's forums. Scan the Steam forums for players looking for a decent place to play and there are people there, they just need reaching out to. I've been tempted on L4D, but at present we have the population to fill the servers and I have no real requirement to. Once the game eases off a little I'll go trawling for new blood.
AoKCC? wow brings back memories. Now called AFK and almost dead. A few people left like Fenris, MightyRed etc (squ0nk will know them) but little else.
We talked about the CS newsgroup at the BBQ and reminisced about all those evenings on FreeAgent surfing the NGs.
Active recruiting is a good idea but it needs someone to go out and do it (Ninja's idea of a PR/Member officer). I like it so long as we don't go and advertise where we shouldn't. We would get hacked off with people coming here to advertise, I imagine that cuts both ways.
One thing we can offer is a home and servers and a dedicated team of people to run them. Surely there's some leverage in that somewhere?
A few inane ramblings and thoughts...
I play on RIP (Rusty in places) servers when the dMw server is empty. Its relevant because its always busy on that server and yet its also administered quite well and they have a similar ethos to ourselves.
As a previous clan founder of RIP, I know there are some similarities with dMw with regards to fairness, tactical play and teamwork.
While I think many of the people here are unique :narnar: (which is why I like it so much) we need to be realistic and acknowledge that there are other clans who have similar ethos to ourselves and who have large clan bases (though that isn't always necessarily a good thing either!).
So for example if someone accidentally TK's you in COD 4 on a RIP server they have to apologise. If they don't they get a warning then they are booted.
Its not perfect (no server is), you get occasional bunny hopping and fragness but on the whole the players (the vast majority of whom aren't RIP) police themselves and quickly jump on a player who doesn't apologise before bringing bad behaviour to the attention of an admin.
Last night someone was rude to a player, swearing etc and after a warning was quickly ejected from the server by an admin.
I think if we could set up a server like this (which I think maybe similar in thinking to delanvitals and NF) and which is robustly but fairly administered with clear rules on acceptable behaviour from the out set, it will attract the sort of players dMw are looking for - mature players who enjoy good teamwork and fun (which is what OB and all dMw players want).
I notice on RIP servers the same names each night - its no coincidence they return and then RIP cherry pick the players they want - inviting them to join RIP and the idiots don't get in.
This model isn't unique, but perhaps what has made some of these servers such good recruiting tools isn't how they are administered (as I think we do a good job of that) but perhaps how quickly we get a public server set up for new games. I'm also aware that this in itself can be difficult ie to second guess which games are worth buying and taking the trouble to provide a decent public server for it (not to mention the issue of dividing the community with new games). The reality is we are in a competitive market and servers quickly become established, perhaps what we need to do, is ensure its the dMw servers that are established once the powers that be have decided on which games to support.
Another possible issue is that you do need a fairly large number of dMw people on these servers who will kickstart them into life - ie get 4 people and to get the pubs interest so they join.
Sorry I don't seem to have offered any solutions, I understand peoples frustrations but reading between the lines I think we all want the same thing - dMw to improve, remain loyal to our core values (marketing spiel) and grow and thats a good thing :)
talking about a game dying and trying to revitalise it is something that i am involved in with another game/clan at the moment.
so bear with this story
I play a game called battlegrounds 2, the game is excellant and involves teamplay because we play linebattles, ie just like waterloo etc, we line up and shoot each other till we run out of oposition. the game involves tactics of trying to get into a better positition than your enemy.
Well everything was going swimingly until about 18 months ago when the game designers upgraded the game into using the tf2 platform as its base program.. ie orange box. Anyhow with the changes came problems and then ppl started to leave.
over the last 6 months we have been organising public line battles, this is where anyone can turn up and have a go, it has been very unproductive, we have maybe recruited 4-5 players, 99% of the time we get 13-17 yr old immature little gits who arent interested in the disicpline of the game, and ultimatly most of them get kicked quite quickley. They then go and terroise another server.
so at the moment that clan is about to die, and im a liitle sad about it.
If we decided to open up servers to the pub's i can say that we would get more problems than it is worth.
How about doing something differant, every month PC gamer magazine used to post a little 2 or 3 line post about a couple of clans with the Url. I dont know if this costs anything but if a post in a mag like that costs about Ã,£50 wouldnt that be worth a go? from what i remeber one of their team comes onto the server has a little play and writes said 2 or 3 lines. I dont get said mag any more, but maybe something like that would be an idea.
Quote from: Dewey;283099Another possible issue is that you do need a fairly large number of dMw people on these servers who will kickstart them into life - ie get 4 people and to get the pubs interest so they join.
I like it. This is not a bad idea to get some action but it would involve everyone doing their part.
hmm i dont no what to say if you want help im up and ready
Started an idea thread here. Probably pants but it's me posted so what did you expect :)
http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=283110#post283110
Quote from: Penfold;283094Whitey, when the CS servers were dying and you got a load of fresh blood in how/what did you do? I can't remember :g:.
We opened up a public server and stayed on it for about 4 hours most evenings, mainly playing with bots (and Blunt and Norm). We had a lot of frag hunters but also picked out the more mature players and asked them to sign up on the forum. The move of SoG to the forum was a huge help as there were quite a few members who decided to try CS and liked the way we played and were then very active as well (Oth, SJ, Kreg, Bastet... to name a few).
I think we've started down the right path (open up public servers early in the products life) but the catch is that we need to have dMw people on the servers to show how we play and point the people that turn up to the forum (we have in-game adverts with the URL but you can't beat the personal touch).
I have been surprised by how active the NEOTOKYO server has been and am happy to see dMw tag holders on there advertising the community as well. If we can convert even 1% of the players who visit the server into a members of community, it would make a huge difference to our numbers.
As I pointed out in the post made when I took over the server admin job, I need your help in identifying
new games/mods that will appeal to the dMw style of play, so please do let me know if you have any suggestions.
The only way will increase server population is by having dMw members playing on unlocked servers and keep them active as many days of the week as we can. between 4/6 dMw players is all you need to bring Joe public in. We ended up having a good game this Friday night around Midnight. and we pulled in 4 or so Joes'. one was a dick, but that's the price you will have to pay.
I say unlock the CS and L4D servers. we no longer play COD on a Monday with a locked server and tonight was a great example of passing trade.
I know it's tough if you are waiting to get on the cod server and 50% of people are untagged. but some of these will keep coming back. and that can only be good.
Quote from: Armitage;283152I know it's tough if you are waiting to get on the cod server and 50% of people are untagged. but some of these will keep coming back. and that can only be good.
Just treat the dickheads like dickheads and kick 'em
Quote from: OldBloke;283088[..]Are you suggesting that the admin function could be relaxed so that our playing style is the only difference between a dMw public server and a non-dMw public server? [..]
First of all, I can see, and am aware of, the point you make with conflicting playing styles which could potentially compromise the dMw ethos. I am, however, not advocating a watered-down version of our core values but a broader perspective on gaming and on how to attract potential gamers.
I feel the current approach to recruiting has been narrowly focused on attracting tactical, team work-oriented people, who have already learned the trade somewhere before, instead of trying to serve friendly, potential players in general. As an example, if I had joined a CS-game on boomer as my way into dMw I think I would have been booted. Keeping up with messages, voice comms and what not for a freshman is hard.
As we moved from a clan to a community we have seen the synergy from hosting different games (people take on more of the community's games) and I believe we have even moved beyond our ethos a bit with games like LFS (I am a fan, don't get me wrong) since being a nice chap goes beyond team work there. You don't exactly drive "together" to complete the laps.
The recruiting scope, however, is still on tactical, already-nurtured players to the outside, even though we tolerate, and nurture our own members into the other games we host because they are nice people.
I am not advocating the inclusion of servers with no moderation at all, but merely adding servers to popular, non-tactical, possibly non-team work games to attract friendly, funny people who have no idea what tactical is - yet. A bit like the boomer approach, BUT with leniency on lack of tactical behaviour, but tough on general misbehaviour - swearing, shouting, afk-ing, TK, TW etc.
I am not sure here, but, for example: the inclusion of popular "LAN break" games outside the LANs. As long as they are presented as such, a fun break from the real stuff, I see no problem in hosting servers for different games. The newly-added arcade games on the forum somewhat works like this, but there is no interaction between players. Just an idea...
Quote from: OldBloke;283088[..]but I'm at a loss to see how a public server that bears our name and advertises our ethos can be regarded as a 'shop window' for our community when it has no redeeming features.
As mentioned, I would keep a clear distinction between the core games and the others. If the schism is clear I don't see it as a compromise to the ethos. Few gamers does not enjoy different, non-tactical, non-team work games and at the LANs we also have LAN break games. I really hope my ramblings make sense... (hungover from Metallica last night - the new round concert pit is awesome :woot2:) and sorry if I step on anyone's toes...
This is a thread I've been following and thinking on very hard and I would like to offer the following into the discussion:
Firstly, I was one of those who PM'd Ninja. I tend to be a follower rather than a leader. At least as far as leadership goes (in the workplace for instance) I lead by example and people management.
The reason I PM'd Ninja was because I could see something in what he said that I hadn't previously seen. I've got to admit I was (and am) happy to carry on with the status quo and therefore his thoughts didn't really stir something in me until the point I read them!
To be more specific, I think the direction of his thoughts regarding the 'division of power' hit a note I guess. I'll mention more on this in a moment when I discuss the options we have all been discussing and in particular Delanvital just recently.
EXTRACTING THOUGHTS - QUESTIONS AND IDEAS
So, to extract the thoughts that have been buzzing round my little brain :narnar:
I have several points and questions that I think we should be considering and from there, decisions can be made.
As far as I see it there are popular games which are testament to the thriving community we have and there are other games which have been failing (or at least have less and less of a 'regular following) than the 'popular', self sufficent games.
Those popular games would include WoW and COD4 of course.
One game in particular that is less and less popular is Counter Strike as we all know.
Now to the double edged question:
What can we do to revive such games as CS:S or even should we?
(please don't flame me for this. I'm play CS:S as much as anyone here so my personal opinion is that we should attempt to revive it)
Now, assuming that we want to revive and grow certain areas of the community (I think we all want that?) and considering the point that Ninja was making earlier and the one I alluded too, I have the following to suggest (in a round-a-bout way):
I would like to see more people taking responsibility on the servers as admins/semi admins.
If we had more admins, then more of us would be likely to jump on the server (Boomer for instance) and start some games going.
Now, before someone says 'we have enough admins' I would like to say that the more people (who are already upstanding members of this community) that have some admin responsibilities there are, then the more likely we are to have a team of dMw'ers on the server and more often.
I'm not suggesting that you make anyone in particular an admin (i.e. me). What I am suggesting is that you extend the status of good community members from the forums out into the game servers themselves.
I'm also going to suggest that you open up the style of play and map range on Boomer (sorry I'm on about CS:S all the time). If one of these new admins joins the server and that person likes gungame for instance, then why not let them change the map to a GG map and watch the server fill up! After a while you can then change back to tactical maps again. All the while messages will be shown on screen about how we play and on what days etc.
I notice this has been done with COD4 which is great, but remember COD4 is a game that isn't struggling right now.
Insofar as the wider community goes I think that the 'division of power' should be extended across the board anyway.
My reasoning is that if more of the community are involved in the running of the community (and not just 'the same crew that has been running things for years now'), then the more likely they will advocate the benefits of our community on the server.
GROWTH
Attracting players of the calibre we want is another issue that is being discussed here and I have twopennyworth to add.
Like Delanvital, when I first jumped on the server (CS:S Boomer) well over two years ago, I was one of those guys who would play how they were used to playing i.e. go off and kill as many of the enemy as possible. On my first visit to the server I felt 'got at' for playing like I did and it was an uncomfortable feeling I must admit.
About a month or two later I accidentally joined the server again and when I joined I remembered the server and it's tactical game style. I also remember the embarrassement I felt at my last visit, however I decided to stick with it and see how it went.
My point here is that most people that might jump on the server who go off fraghunting are not necessarily teenage, fraghunting jerks who we kick and ban due to bad play. They could well be people like me and Delanvital who just need time and some gentle admin to encourage and open eyes to the proper way of playing the game(s).
Finally, on this point. If we detect someone who we consider to be material for dMw (remember I was a fraghunter at one stage so first impressions don't count here), then why not add them on steam friends and encourage them that way? You can always delete them later. This tactic for growth would only work if there were many of us active on the servers and to a certain extent on the forums.
So, if you combine both my points about admins and our way of dealing with the newcomers onto our servers then I think we might perhaps see growth again in the areas that need it and we might see more of our wonderful community enjoying playing a bigger part in the community and therefore growing and happiness restored :)
Lots of good points being made guys and I am taking note of them all - trust me.
I would like to make a point about 'the same crew that has been running things for years now'.
In an earlier post I mentioned that TeaLeaf and I changed the way the community's gaming sections were run. We created the 'Section Head' and empowered them to run their sections as they see fit. Incase there's any confusion, they award their badges, they appoint their admins, they decide on the number and configuration of their servers, they handle matters of section discipline and, of course, they promote the dMw ethos. Look at the 'Management Structure' (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=9513) post and you'll see it's not just the 'same crew' with the power to make change happen. And we hope that that list of names will increase as we strive to grow the community.
It's true that TeaLeaf and I make those senior appointments and that some of them have been around for some time - that's because they're good at what they do and we have confidence that they have the community's best interest at heart.
Quote from: OldBloke;283236I would like to make a point about 'the same crew that has been running things for years now'.
So would I.
The point was well made. I stood down as an admin because we were not allowed to be admins. You kept interfering. Ron stood down for the same reason. Smilo stood down because of the way you treated him as an admin and I quit the community because of the way you spoke to me.
Sorry OB but you are not the solution, you are the problem!
BB (who has been watching this thread and cant believe some of the crap he has been seeing)
Quote from: ShinyTwelve;283241So would I.
Smilo stood down because of the way you treated him
Please don't speak for me, especially when what you say is complete rubbish. Thanks.
Quote from: ShinyTwelve;283241... Sorry OB but you are not the solution, you are the problem!
I am definitely going to get me a dMw salary sorted if this keeps up. :flirty:
please guys I thought we were going to keep this civil?
Ive been following this thread closely, and im surprised.
Tbh this is a Q&A thread, no a place where crap accusations should be flinged around like this.. Im surprised that certain people has tried to derail it into a mud war.. Keep is civilised people..
The new structure looks like it could solve a few problems, and should make it more obvious who "controlls" what..
I dont see a issue with it..
Keep up the good work chaps, your doing a fine job.. :)
Good post Kreg, I have to agree.
I've asked in the sister thread that we keep this generic and not personal. Some of the stuff coming out of this is interesting and I'm going to keep it that way.
This goes for everybody from the most senior to the most junior member. If you can't keep it courteous then butt out. If you can't control yourselves and keep it clean then I or one of this section's forum moderators will delete your posts.... simple as. You can bitch and complain all you like but you've all now had fair warning. And if enforcing it costs me my job then so be it.
It's not fair that people coming up with constructive and cogent thoughts gets their insights drowned out by histrionics. :angry:
Quote from: Jabbs;283226My point here is that most people that might jump on the server who go off fraghunting are not necessarily teenage, fraghunting jerks who we kick and ban due to bad play. They could well be people like me and Delanvital who just need time and some gentle admin to encourage and open eyes to the proper way of playing the game(s).
I think this is very valid. I think sometimes we could all have been accused of being very trigger happy with the ban button. It's better to educate and keep someone than ban them and lose them. Good point.
Regarding admins:
Quote from: Jabbs;283226.....My reasoning is that if more of the community are involved in the running of the community (and not just 'the same crew that has been running things for years now'), then the more likely they will advocate the benefits of our community on the server.
I take on board your point about more admins but it's in everyone's interests to promote us to potential new members be they an admin or not.
Quote from: Jabbs;283226If we had more admins, then more of us would be likely to jump on the server (Boomer for instance) and start some games going.
I'm not sure this is true ... is it? (that me asking btw not telling lol).
Quote from: Penfold;283273I'm not sure this is true ... is it? (that me asking btw not telling lol).
Only because it followed on from my previous point about people being involved in the community.
Yes, of course it's in all our interests to build and tell others about the benefits of the community and our style of play but at the end of the day we are all HUMAN.
This means we thrive on attention, praise and recognition. If we as individuals (not stagnating) are thriving within the community, then we are likely to grow and bring others with us.
Quote from: Jabbs;283282This means we thrive on attention, praise and recognition. If we as individuals (not stagnating) are thriving within the community, then we are likely to grow and bring others with us.
In the spirit of this thread, I disagree entirely. I was asked if I wanted to admin L4D because I was playing it a lot and trying to help where I could on the server side and general setup before we had the server.
Would I still play if I was the admin? Absolutely.
I'm struggling to see how making someone an admin would make them more likely to play on a server. This may be a personal thing, but my career is where I work toward advancement and getting up the ranks for the associated rewards. I don't play here so that one day I can take TL's role.
I may have misinterpreted your post and if so, in the spirit of this thread I blame you and your ancestors.
Quote from: Benny;283292I'm struggling to see how making someone an admin would make them more likely to play on a server. This may be a personal thing, but my career is where I work toward advancement and getting up the ranks for the associated rewards. I don't play here so that one day I can take TL's role.
I have a wee comment to that - making someone an admin does increase gameplay and where it matters - when playing on the public servers in the off hours. I believe that is one of the reasons why Whitey created the concept of a trainee or junior admin, which I have been for 1-2 years or so. This allows me to kick the ignorant troublemakers and help those that want to learn. If not, and there was no admin, I would probably end up leaving the server, since just one troublemaker can kill the game... Taking time zone differences (and my lack of life atm) into consideration, I often play a bit earlier than you do and being able to junior-admin the game has helped me keep playing on our public server - where the potential members are.
Quote from: Jabbs;283282.....but at the end of the day we are all HUMAN.
This means we thrive on attention, praise and recognition. If we as individuals (not stagnating) are thriving within the community, then we are likely to grow and bring others with us.
We're moving from the Community now on to something different..... [/SIZE][/FONT]
and talking about comparative rank and social structure; the method by which people arrange themselves so they can exist in harmony together. It pits two opposing forces against each other and both are equally important; The individual versus community welfare. The object is to achieve a dynamic equilibrium between the two. Individual people can voice their views or can be completely subordinate ââ,¬â€œ both can be just as devastating in the long term to the Community.
Members of any Community regardless of what form it takes will arrange themselves according to some hierarchy. Commonly understood written and unwritten rules can help to smooth the friction and ease the stress of maintaining a workable balance within the constantly changing system. In some situations, most individuals will not have to compromise much of their personal views for the welfare of the community. In others, the needs of the Community may demand total compromise of the individual. Neither is more right than the other, it depends on the circumstances but neither extreme can be maintained for long.
A Community cannot last if a few people exercise their individuality at the expense of the community. But with no individuality there can be no change or adaptation....and in an inherently changing online world anyone unable to adapt is doomed. Itââ,¬â,,¢s striking the balance between the two and thatââ,¬â,,¢s something weââ,¬â,,¢re working on.
I appreciate the concept of reward and recognition - and the badge system is a visual marker for that. People like badges (my children will do anything for a sticker!). If you feel that members need to be admins to be ambassadors then it's a consideration and something for the relevant game admins (Blunt, Benny and Armitage) to consider as it's their call. Personally I see it as secondary and unnecessary to have to be an admin to promote dMw and our way of life but then I appreciate that, by your benchmark above, I'm probably on the other side of the boat than you. Like Benny, I didn't ask to become an admin (Hell, it took me over 4 years to become a charlie!). I was invited having spent years organising the running the LANs. I ran a good few LANs without recognition and before I was asked to be an admin - but it's something I enjoyed doing and got satisfaction from that fact that everyone (I hope) enjoyed it. I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just saying that I'm not sure that everyone would place the same value on it. (That said, I acknowledge I'm probably as much of a badge wh0re as the next person :wink: )
Anyway it's food for thought and a valid point.
Long and garbled but I hope it makes sense :rolleyes:
Personally I come here to play games I like, with people I like, in a tactical and team orientated way.
As long as the current management structure can provide well run servers with mature admins for these games on a free basis, then I have no real reason for complaint.
If I was to want changes then I would expect them to be considered, but under no circumstances would I expect the people who work to keep dMw running to automatically implement those changes.
As for a dwindling player base? Isn't this something any of us could help with? Lets post on forums we frequent, mention dMw to anyone we know that plays games, help players work as a team on any server we're on, anything other than sit on the forums and complain.
Quote from: FrEnZy;283331mention dMw to anyone we know that plays games, help players work as a team on any server we're on, anything other than sit on the forums and complain.
Totally agree Frenzy.
This is why i would like a war anger position made aswell as recruiter.
Hell i'd do it if no one else will.
If we play friendlies its cheap affordable and we spread our name constructively. Joe public aren't as per se tactical but they will need to work as a team in matchplay.
Often i feel i make suggestions and its like putting responses into a comment box. You make them but they aren't heard.
Personally i think we should have an AGM at the next lan.
Not for a personal debate but more so for this is what we are doing what do you guys think could be improved.
Forums are good but face to face meetings are another tool.
We are a community and society and i feel for Half an hour in October we should all sit round a table and come up with constructive comments.
It's a shame this has fallen into personal comments we are all here for one reason and one reason only for the success of the community and to be part of a living breathing enitity that is dMw.
Quote from: GhostMjr;283360Totally agree Frenzy.
This is why i would like a war anger position made aswell as recruiter.
Do wanna sound like a noob but whats a war anger.... is it like a war face but slightly differant see below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6vHOR8lzTg&feature=related
;-)
From the first day of finding dMw its provided a vehicle for me to enjoy my gaming time. Any of the games the comunity run give the best possible experience with both attitude and teamwork. I have tried many others and lets face it none come close. When i click on any of our servers i am 99.9% sure i will have a cracking game
So what will the changes mean for me ... well in 2 words "sod all" the games will still run the servers will be top notch the people playing them want to enjoy time on there as much as the next person. Long may it carry on. For the majority of members all that is asked of them is to play fair and enjoy
Quote from: GhostMjr;283360Totally agree Frenzy.
This is why i would like a war anger position made aswell as recruiter.
Hell i'd do it if no one else will.
If we play friendlies its cheap affordable and we spread our name constructively. Joe public aren't as per se tactical but they will need to work as a team in matchplay.
I don't disagree with a lot of your points Ghost, however I feel I need to answer 2 of them.
Everything that is posted of any substance is discussed at great length in other forum areas, and I really do mean at length.
Secondly, the war-arranger piece. The opportunity was there, and to a certain extent still is for people to represent dMw in L4D, however the abysmal turnouts, dire organisation and complete lack of effort mean that at present, I personally wouldn't be happy for dMw to be represented at risk of besmirching our reputation as people wouldn't turn up to matches.
I don't aim these comments at you, nor anyone in particular, but it's all very well making suggestions, but as with all positions, put the effort in, make a difference and I'm sure those positions will came your or anyones way. Sit back and list wants and not a lot will happen.
I don't see any harm in a meeting at the LAN, but bear in mind you have 40 people....sat in a room, how would you propose that it would be handled to make it productive?
This isn't to ignore your comments, but suggest, again, that you come up with the solutions and I'm pretty sure they'd be welcomed if viable. It's hard work behind the scenes, less so for me as I have one section, but still a commitment nonetheless. I can tell TL for example how he should really run WoW, but without putting some practicalities behind the suggestions I would also end up feeling like I'd been ignored.
I hope this is taken as meant and not as a personal swipe. I'll add a smiley to note that we are all still friends. :mellow:
War arrangers' and matches are no good if we don't get people sign up or even worse, not show up for matches. COD4 even had to suspend the internal ladder, as we don't manage to get enough players for one match a month.
So unfortunately GM, I think your barking up the wrong tree there.
After reading this thread.
can one of the Admins please delete my Forum account...
I already had badges removed (by my own request) now just my account for the forum. As i can get on the bits i rwithout an account and still play on the publics from time to time.
it used to be a nice friendly atmosphere now its not and after reading this I no longer want to be a part of it.
many thanks all
I will keep in touch on steam and still join on occasions
ghoule
Quote from: ghoule211;283514After reading this thread.
can one of the Admins please delete my Forum account...
I already had badges removed (by my own request) now just my account for the forum. As i can get on the bits i rwithout an account and still play on the publics from time to time.
it used to be a nice friendly atmosphere now its not and after reading this I no longer want to be a part of it.
many thanks all
I will keep in touch on steam and still join on occasions
ghoule
i hope you get the message i sent you b4 it gets deleted mate
Ok seriously, am I missing something?
We have servers, we have admins, and I'm enjoying L4D with the deadmen. Is there something significant going on in other sections to cause this toy throwing?
If people want to publicly flounce off, let em I say.
For what my opinion is worth :wink: a thread like this works as follows
people who have posted here saying they're quite happy with the way things are
+
people who haven't felt the need to post anything at all (the silent majority)
+
people who think there could be improvements and have made constructive criticisms and suggestions
-
people who have simply had a mindless rant
=
the state of the community.......... So as a rank and file member I'm not unduly concerned.
We do have an issue with how we grow the community, which ironically this thread didn't ask us to address, and we're discussing it. :D
Quote from: smilodon;283530For what my opinion is worth :wink: a thread like this works as follows
people who have posted here saying they're quite happy with the way things are
+
people who haven't felt the need to post anything at all (the silent majority)
+
people who think there could be improvements and have made constructive criticisms and suggestions
-
people who have simply had a mindless rant
=
the state of the community.......... So as a rank and file member I'm not unduly concerned.
We do have an issue with how we grow the community, which ironically this thread didn't ask us to address, and we're discussing it. :D
:withstupid:
What he said :D
i'm a little annoyed we lost ghole over these suggestions:sad:
Quote from: sulky_uk;283551i'm a little annoyed we lost ghole over these suggestions:sad:
Same, see you on the public's sometime Ghole.
Quote from: smilodon;283530For what my opinion is worth :wink: a thread like this works as follows
people who have posted here saying they're quite happy with the way things are
+
people who haven't felt the need to post anything at all (the silent majority)
+
people who think there could be improvements and have made constructive criticisms and suggestions
-
people who have simply had a mindless rant
=
the state of the community.......... So as a rank and file member I'm not unduly concerned.
We do have an issue with how we grow the community, which ironically this thread didn't ask us to address, and we're discussing it. :D
+ People that haven't posted because it's pointless :)
We haven't really 'lost' Ghoule ...
According to his post.....
He's going to be accessing our forums, playing on our public servers, keeping in touch via Steam and 'join in on occasions' .... but also 'no longer wants to be part of it'.
Doesn't sound like he's going far tbh (or so I hope) :thumbsup2:
:)
I'm with frenzy...
What is going on??
The servers run well.
The games have decent people running them.
What i don't get most of all is that people want to leave over this and in a manner of "please delete my account." You could just stop coming onto the forums, only read what you think is relevant to you or just ignore it, but people are making a statement of "look at me im not happy so im spitting out my dummy" it's pathetic....Grow up fcs.
For me:
Well done to all the admins for the time and work you put in.
Oldie / TL your doing a great job keep it up.
I may upset some people with the harsh comments.........I don't really care :).
I do have to agree Smite and it's not our policy to delete any accounts. Worse case we'll reduce a user to a bulk-standard member but over and above that if they want to leave they can just leave and not have to log into their account again.
/Flame-retardant pants on standby
I have taken the decision to move this thread to supporting members chat for the following reasons:
1. All bar two people who have posted in this thread are supporting members so the vast, vast majority of members still have access to it.
2. In an attempt to start drawing in more players, we shortly going to be spamming the servers and forum across the gaming community and this thread, although valid, is not a true reflection on us or our interpersonal relationships 99% of the time and our 'mature' ethos.
3. There's plenty to discuss here and we want to keep the thread alive.
4. If any unsupporting members wants to see this thread or contribute to this thread then I will send it to them. I'm pm'ing unsupporting members who have positively contributed to this thread with this offer. I'm doing this so they don't feel penalised for not being a supporting member - something which is purely voluntary. Any other member is entitled to see and reply to this.
This is not an attempt to subvert, hide, corrupt, oppress or anything else, it's just what I deem to be a sensible and logical move.
I bet I could give you a list of the people who will take major umbridge over this :flirty:.
Quote from: lionheart;283529If people want to publicly flounce off, let em I say.
This is not aimed in any way directly at Lionheart, but he put it quite simple and straight forward, which made it easy to quote. I have the impression that many do in one way or another have this same attitude, which is why I feel it is necessary to comment:
When people - long time, dedicated and highly respected members of the community - leave in this way, we should not just raise our eye brows and accuse them of handling the situation in a childish or immature way (in lack of better words - it is when writing about serious stuff like this I notice my English should have been quite much better). We should see this as an alarm bell, as an obvious alert that something is not at all the way it should be, and ask ourselves one question: why?
I do not think anybody would leave this suddenly without any good reason - especially not if you have spent years and years participating and helping build this community. If people doesn't think the reasons for those leaving are any good, I encourage the leaving ones to try explain to us why the reasons are good and important for
you, cause I am sure they are (to BB, if you are still following this thread: I know I would, and probably many others as well, would appreciate it very much if you would participate in the discussion and try to enlighten us about how you feel). Also in the case of BB, it is quite obvious that something has happened back-stage that hasn't been visible for the lot of us. Here I think the administration has a responsibility to us, the members, what has actually happened - because that much we deserve.
Quote from: smilodon;283530+ people who haven't felt the need to post anything at all (the silent majority)
One should be carefull counting the "silent majority" as a +. I think it isn't unlikely that quite a lot of those who doesn't raise their voice doesn't do so of two reasons: either they feel the situation uncomfortable and doesn't know what they could add neither for nor against. Or they simply doesn't care: as long as they have somplace to play their favourite game with good people without too much stress it is just a hassle to try and enter a discussion such as this - all the way untill it just becomes too much and they tip over and simply leave. The latter of these two is one to particularly look out for, as it potentially could include quite some that you look upon as valuable members of the community, but then all of a sudden they are gone without you being able to do anything about it or really knowing why.
Quote from: smilodon;283530= the state of the community
I also think a thread such as this one says something about the state of the community. However, I think the thread itself only says that things aren't in place. What really can tell us how the state is, is what we are left with after such a discussion: have we learnt anything? did everybody get a chance to say their honest opinion without getting their hands chopped off even though it was an unpopular one? Has the discussion resulted in any changes? Etc...
Finally I would also like to add one thing about what
I thought was one of Ninjas key points in his [post=282811]first post[/post], which I feel has been forgotten in much of this debate: how does the management listen to the members, and how is the opinion of the members used by the management when making new decisions.
What I read from Ninja's post conserning transparancy and how things are run, is the desire to know more about and have a greater possibility to influence decission
before they are taken (as it is harder to change the way you are driving if the road already has been built). With the original topic of this thread - New Management Structure - in mind, wouldn't one idea for instance be: instead of just anouncing "out of the blue" that we have a new management structure coming, a post could be made saying something like "The admins have felt the need to restructure the management, we have thought about this and that and our thoughts of a solution is this. We would now like to have the input from the members about what you think of this and what potential other ideas you have, before we go through with it". This could also be done for a lot of other important (or unimportant for that matter) changes to the community.
I know I ain't good at controlling myself when writing posts - it can probably both be long and not too easy to get my point always. I still hope some of the above made at least a bit of sense to you. I'm not sure it will make any sense to me either if I read it over tomorrow, but right now this is my :2cents: I'll add more to it later if any clarifications is needed :)
I'll do a quick comment on this, as I've probably spent an hour writing my last post and feel I have something to add sine quite a few new posts has come in during that time, and Pen's was the last one just minutes before I posted mine:
Quote from: Penfold;283585I have taken the decision to move this thread to supporting members chat for the following reasons
I do see your point, and do to some extent agree. However, if moving this thread, it does more belong in Badge Holders Banter and not here in Supporting Members Chat. The reason for this, is that you should
not have to pay to be allowed to participate in this discussion. Anybody that has earned their right to any badge also should have the right to participate -
if they feel like it - but at least read this discussion.
You're quite right. Have to say it didn't even occur to me tbh :doh:
I didn't want un-supporting members to feel penalised as being a supporting member is purely voluntary (hence my offer to relay the thread to any that asked). This way 99.9% of the Community can see it and comment whilst random visitors cannot.
I feel more than a little stupid..... Good call!
Duly moved and thanks.
I hopeful this is more acceptable.
Thanks mate.
It might be worth running back through this whole thread.... as I have just done. It's actually not particularly negative at all. We've made suggestions and we've responded to suggestions. Sometimes we've agreed and sometimes we've not. Look at my other thread about opening up public servers as a 'honey trap'. The majority of responses politely told me it was a dumb idea :)
The only remotely controversial post was Ninja's, and I'd argue it was forthright and in some respects critical, but it's what he feels and he has a right to say it. And anyone else has the right to disagree with the post and to say as much. I don't think he specifically had a go at anyone. He was just making comments about the current status quo. And I assume he made the post to try to make the dMw better for all of us. I happen to disagree with some of his points but that's why we post stuff here. To make suggestions and observations and to have them challenged. It's debate and it's supposed to be fun.
So this thread isn't the car crash we may think it is. I have no idea why it's caused Ghoule to want to leave. This is how a good community works. We talk, we agree, we disagree and hopefully we come up with an improvement. Some people won't get what they want and some people will. Some will stay with the dMw and some might leave. But leave the dMw because you don't like the games that it has to offer, not because we discuss it from time to time.
BB will not be able to make a comment if moved. I'm not sure if you want him to or not. Just thought I would say something incase this was an oversite.
QuoteWith the original topic of this thread - New Management Structure - in mind, wouldn't one idea for instance be: instead of just anouncing "out of the blue" that we have a new management structure coming, a post could be made saying something like "The admins have felt the need to restructure the management, we have thought about this and that and our thoughts of a solution is this. We would now like to have the input from the members about what you think of this and what potential other ideas you have, before we go through with it". This could also be done for a lot of other important (or unimportant for that matter) changes to the community.
Can I just say Bob thats one of the things that also got my goat. Thats how the section heads where informed also.
Quote from: smilodon;283601So this thread isn't the car crash we may think it is. I have no idea why it's caused Ghoule to want to leave. This is how a good community works. We talk, we agree, we disagree and hopefully we come up with an improvement. Some people won't get what they want and some people will. Some will stay with the dMw and some might leave. But leave the dMw because you don't like the games that it has to offer, not because we discuss it from time to time.
I'm not sure why Ghoule left too? But we'll leave it open and how what transpires. Regardless, we're not in the habit of deleting profiles. If someone wants out then they only have to not log in and not visit the forum.
Debate is good and this is pretty good overall -I hope we're over the mud-slinging and can make some progress. Notes are being made and things will be considered.
Arm, I appreciate there will be a couple of people (literally) in the Community that cannot see this thread. When I moved it I made it clear that I will give any member a transcript of the thread and also reply on their behalf should they request it. It's not designed to be restrictive, I just think this shouldn't be in a totally open forum where any tom, dick or harry can pass by and comment.
Quote from: Armitage;283610BB will not be able to make a comment if moved. I'm not sure if you want him to or not. Just thought I would say something incase this was an oversite.
I thought BB left and wanted nothing to do with the community at all. If so I'd have assumed he'd be long gone by now. I think he made one post and it didn't really say anything constructive. But then I'm probably biased as I had a complete sense of humour failure when he referred to me in his post.
Quote from: Armitage;283610Can I just say Bob thats one of the things that also got my goat. Thats how the section heads where informed also.
I suppose it raises the question of how much input should people expect. If we'd have had a group of elected admins that were answerable to the membership then I guess we would have certain expectations of being able to be a major part of the process. On the other hand if the dMw is a service provided 'as is' by it's creators TL and Oldie, and we're all effectively users, then it's up to the people who created the community to decide how it is to be run and how much control is given out.
I think the dMw will thrive better if people feel like they can contribute. But on the other hand I'm well aware that a very large number of people simply want to come and use the servers and the forum and don't much care about getting to decide how it's done.
However I still see the dMw as something that's provided. Like you Arm, I've had the opportunity to 'look under the bonnet' and see what's involved in running this community. I wouldn't take it on in a million years :) For me it's Oldie and TL's baby and they have handed out a fair degree of control of what goes on here. I'm inclined to be grateful for that and not expect anything more. I'm not an admin so I don't know what was discussed before the announcement was made. So I'll defer to you on that one.
In light of all that's happened I wish my account to remain, I wish to continue my participation in dMw and I wish to continue to play on dMw servers please :norty:
Seriously, I'm taking the approach that the changes were made for the good of the community and to create a structure that will cope with the expected growth :D
I too cannot see why Ghoule wants to make such a statement - yes, there have been disagreements over certain things and yes, BB did post a controversial post. However, if anyone should want to leave over this thread it should be those whose ideas and comments have been flamed and those who have suffered personal attack. OldBloke I'm sure has considered it over the past week or so ;-) Even I, as a sensitive soul, have thought several times, is it worth the effort to contribute when ones ideas are put down so sternly?
At the end of the day, I have to repeat what has been said by many already that we are here to have fun and play games and play them in a tactical and organised fashion (something that is rare as we all know) :)
I find it ironic that a thread intended to increase dMw membership has actually managed to reduce it. You might want to ask yourselves how that happened.
You may also want to resolve the paradox created by claiming to want to recruit new members with a mature attitude and then proceeding to treat them like children.
I now hand you back to the usual suspects and their "if you can't say anything constructive, blah, blah.." comments.
And I do play elsewhere, thanks. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jabbs;283646I too cannot see why Ghoule wants to make such a statement
Ghoule has not left dMw. Like many of us have done in the past he has used that famous dMw revolving door.
It involves getting to the exit, realising that's it's a lot nicer in there than it is *out there* and promptly doing an about turn.
He isn't the first and he won't be the last :flirty:
Either way hello again and welcome back :byebye:
Quote from: DogMeat;283885I find it ironic that a thread intended to increase dMw membership has actually managed to reduce it. You might want to ask yourselves how that happened.
You may also want to resolve the paradox created by claiming to want to recruit new members with a mature attitude and then proceeding to treat them like children.
I now hand you back to the usual suspects and their "if you can't say anything constructive, blah, blah.." comments.
And I do play elsewhere, thanks. :thumbsup:
That was constructive....ish, and I agree this thread isn't one I'd pin to the front page. I'd still make the point that with the exception of one or two pointless "You're all crap you are" posts and Ninja's early and IMHO useful critique of the dMw, this thread seems to be quite positive about the community. No one is disagreeing with the basic idea and almost everyone see it as a positive move. It's spawned a few 'ideas' threads as well.
Frankly I don't see what the problem is. Where's the mass disagreement and argument? Not in this thread.
As to the original idea about the change to the admin role, no one has said it's a dumb idea and so it's reasonable to assume it's taken as a good idea.
In a nutshell the consensus seems to be - good move but maybe the plan could have been discussed with us when it was a plan rather than when it became a decision?
End of thread ? :)
Quote from: smilodon;283901That was constructive....ish, and I agree this thread isn't one I'd pin to the front page. I'd still make the point that with the exception of one or two pointless "You're all crap you are" posts and Ninja's early and IMHO useful critique of the dMw, this thread seems to be quite positive about the community. No one is disagreeing with the basic idea and almost everyone see it as a positive move. It's spawned a few 'ideas' threads as well.
Frankly I don't see what the problem is. Where's the mass disagreement and argument? Not in this thread.
As to the original idea about the change to the admin role, no one has said it's a dumb idea and so it's reasonable to assume it's taken as a good idea.
In a nutshell the consensus seems to be - good move but maybe the plan could have been discussed with us when it was a plan rather than when it became a decision?
End of thread :)
that what i was thinking as well, apart form nit picking, do we need to carry this thread on?
Quote from: sulky_uk;283911that what i was thinking as well, apart form nit picking, do we need to carry this thread on?
Until all the nits have been picked or people are bored with picking nits it should stay open. Closing threads because someone thinks it should be closed smacks of Stalinism.
IMHO. :)
I don't think anyone closed the thread Ron. But I'm just nit-picking. :whistle:
I think it might be an idea to move this on in other threads? If someone has an idea about how we might boost membership to the community a fresh thread might be the best way to go. Otherwise IMHO this thread is going to get very bloated with several competing discussions bogging down the conversation.
This thread was supposed to be about the new community admin role. So in that vein -I think it's a solid idea.
Plus points -
It creates additional roles that give more of us a chance to become active participants. The statement said at least three community admins, which suggests there may be the opportunity for more to be added?
It separates the running of a game server, which is a largely technical job to be honest, from looking after a group of players and their interests, which is more of a facilitating job.
And I think it should make bringing new games online a quicker process.
Minus points -
It was a big step change and it seems some of the former Section Heads might have not been aware of or that pleased aboutwhat they perceive as being a cut to their role?
Some community members would appreciate a more inclusive process where new ideas are floated first and then adopted after some feedback. The community is still run and effectively owned by the Head Admins, so although there would be the chance of discussion ultimate control would still lie with them.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;283913I don't think anyone closed the thread Ron. But I'm just nit-picking. :whistle:
Here's another nit. I know no-one closed the thread, but it
was suggested. :) :winkiss:
Quote from: smilodon;283915It was a big step change and it seems some of the former Section Heads might have not been aware of or that pleased aboutwhat they perceive as being a cut to their role?
Not being aware about something and not being pleased about something are two very distinct things.
As for the former, the proposed structure change has been openly posted in Section Admin thread for more than two months so I defy any Section Head which says they haven't seen it or been aware of the suggested restructure. In fact most SH's posted in the thread (and those that didn't are not claiming it was sprung upon them).
As for closing this thread I agree with Doors (crickey! :wink:) . Whilst it's serving a purpose, ideas are being generated and whilst is free from mud-slinging and other crap then it's worth leaving open.
All I have to say is WOW (not the fairy type either).
Just back from holiday.. (crap weather, never stopped raining - thanks for asking)...
Apart from some of the earlier jabs back and forth from my initial post I've seen a significant number of good, constructive posts. It's a credit to all of us for sticking this thread out. I also agree that this thread should be taken to supporting members and anyone interested should be able so subscribe out of interest and in the guise of visablity.
.... Well, this is evolution in the making now isn't it? ....
I've seen a lot of critical comments on my initial post and then suprisingly it later refered to as "constructive" by the same individuals that criticised me in the first place...
As Oldie mentioned that he's taking notes here's my recount of some of the comments and ideas:
1. Transparency - I think this is a common theme that the community is asking for. Transparency in the fiscal or financial running of the community but also inclusion in the decisions taken on the structure changes.
This can come in many forms but I was suprised to hear that the (some?) section heads didn't know the changes were coming. Might I suggest that the supporting members be involved in the process? As Smilo has said, at least giving us a voice would keep things in order.
2. Recruitment - We all agree that we need a little more effort or perhaps structure in the way we go about recruiting or publicising dMw.
I'd like to suggest that the community appoint someone for this role.
3. Relaxed Rules Pubs - This is a debating point as I've seen some that support the idea as through patience it can increase our numbers. The contrast however is that it goes against our ehos as a community.
Two things to consider.. 1. There's no rules in competitions. Relaxed rules sharpen our ability to compete.. 2. Ever notice how if we "clan-stack" that the "dMw way" tends to pwn pubbies?
4. We all love this place and want to make it better. ...
All in all this is good stuff and I don't regret what I've started here. In addition I would like to see:
1. Proper business like approach to the structure of the community. Should we consider the creation of a Board with TL or OB as Chair to ensure that through the growth the ethos remains? Perhaps consider elected officers to that board?
2. Preparation and submission of an annual budget that is visable to the Supporting Members. I think that it's important for transparency purposes to see where the community's money is spent. As a qualified accountant I'd be happy to sit as treasurer and prepare the budget for the community (with the help of OB and TL of course).
I look forward to the summary response from TL and OB.
Quote from: Penfold;283926As for closing this thread I agree with Doors (crickey! :wink:) .
That's it! You've gone too far this time...Outside!
can we please close this at put it all behind us? :crying: there isnt anything wrong with the way things are going!
Quote from: Sparko;283948can we please close this at put it all behind us? :crying: there isnt anything wrong with the way things are going!
Again I'd ask why? I'm beginning to sound like a Ninja Freak fan boy, but this is good stuff (I'll admit it but the tattoos make me hot :wink: ). Again I don't agree with every point and I think the comments about the subscribers contributions were not that relevant but this is for the most part very constructive stuff. Yes we've moved a bit off the original topic and there is an argument that says we could have spun this off into several other more focused threads, but as has been mentioned this is all being noted and hopefully acted upon.
I've the benefit of having had the opportunity of chatting about this at the recent BBQ, and real conversations beats forum posts hands down. So I understand what Oldie and TL are trying to do here and it's 100% a sensible idea. As are almost all of the suggestions and comments raised.
So I'd suggest we don't put things behind us but keep exploring what we can do to support the drive for expansion and a solid future for the community.
Sparko why is this thread something we should drop? I'm keen to know? Agreed a few people have used it as an excuse to simply slag us all off but in the main we've been respectful and offered constructibe critisms.
I'm a member of many forums and there are very few that could have raised the sort of topics we've discussed here without it descending into flame wars. That's a testimony to the sort of people we have and the contribution they make.
I have to agree (again) with Smilo.. Until this has run it's course there's no reason to close it down. Just my opinion so feel free to disagree... :/
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283941All I have to say is WOW (not the fairy type either).
Just back from holiday.. (crap weather, never stopped raining - thanks for asking)...
.
Sorry Ninja, but to me what you suggesting sounds like bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.
This isn't a business, and the fact that you've chosen to make a voluntary donation doesn't entitle you (or me) to say how it's spent.
I agree that it's nice to think that as members of this community that our opinion counts, however I think it's entirely unfair to ask people who work unpaid for our enjoyment to start running dMw like some form of corporation and report to us as shareholders. In my years playing with dMw Iââ,¬â,,¢ve lost track of the amount of times Iââ,¬â,,¢ve been playing on our servers, while Oldieââ,¬â,,¢s been sitting next to me on his pc dealing with some form of issue instead of playing, let alone doing things like using his days off to go and install a new server. I think you should remember the amount of work that goes into running this community before you start making demands of those who provided it.
I can't see the problem with the accounts side :g:, Isn't it already transparent in terms of income, outgoings etc? and posted on a regular basis for all (members) to see? with the monies spent on new kit, replacing redundant / broken kit etc etc? There is a similar setup on the Alfa community I'm a member of and this has no details on their accounts whatsoever, so I was amazed at how transparent dMw was!
Or am I missing something here? (it is way past my bed time after all :))
Pen's already mentioned about the SH's knowing about the changes in advance.
Quote from: smilodon;283951Sparko why is this thread something we should drop? I'm keen to know? Agreed a few people have used it as an excuse to simply slag us all off but in the main we've been respectful and offered constructibe critisms.
i just feel its all going to "end in tears", some of the posts that people have posted seem to forget that this is an online gaming community and not
a business. I just cant see why we all cant just play the games we play and get on with it....., im not saying there is anything wrong with discussing the direction in which the community is going but at the end of the day what is it we want to accomplish?.....certainly not fall out between us all!!.
i can imagine TL and OB are quite stressed about this thread and all they want to do is provide gamers, like ourselves, with reliable and enjoyable online gaming facilities (which they do,
for free!!). They choose to do this, and do it in their own time, the last thing they need (this includes the section heads, admins etc) is a thread like this hovering over their heads.
Please dont take this as a rant, i just want things to get back to normal, because at the minute it doesnt feel like it :sad:
You know Sparko, I think you speak more sense than all of us put together!
:withstupid:
Agree with Sparko and Snokio.
So do I and I've said as much earlier in the thread. However I don't think there's a problem with us discussing it either.
The thread was started by Oldie asking for debate about the changes to the community structure. That's what we've done, more or less. This thread isn't a flame war and it's not particularly bad spirited. Maybe it's run it's course though?
As Ninja has been on holiday I think he has missed some of the existing replies, but for the sake of clarity and to answer his request I have tried to answer as best I can.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283941I look forward to the summary response from TL and OB.
Hmm, I think I am about to fail the 'summary' bit in an epic way.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839411. Transparency - I think this is a common theme that the community is asking for. Transparency in the fiscal or financial running of the community
We already publish every single penny of our income and expenditure. Most are well aware that we are totally open about finances here already, so I am really not sure what you mean by your comment as we already are transparent.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;283941but also inclusion in the decisions taken on the structure changes. This can come in many forms but I was suprised to hear that the (some?) section heads didn't know the changes were coming. Might I suggest that the supporting members be involved in the process? As Smilo has said, at least giving us a voice would keep things in order.
Firstly, that's what the Community Admin role is for.
Secondly, as Penfold has already posted but I think you may have missed while on holiday, SHs were aware of the structural change over 2 months prior to the change going public.
Thirdly, I am sure you are not advocating an egalitarian corporation run by an 83 person committee as it is simply not practical. The ideal is fantastic, but in practical terms if we all take a trip together in the 'egalitarian car' then we all know it will end with a huge accident as nobody can ever agree when exactly is the right time to turn the wheel or hit the brakes!
But the principle purpose of the change was to allow us to get more members in - to allow us to put up a game server more quickly than we had previously been able to do so, to attract new players. I think many people are missing this rationale in the discussion of all the sideline issues.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839412. Recruitment - We all agree that we need a little more effort or perhaps structure in the way we go about recruiting or publicising dMw. I'd like to suggest that the community appoint someone for this role.
The apportionment of the work required to run this community is under constant review and that suggestion is one of a number under consideration, including discussion of whether a 'Recruitment officer' might in itself be a role too large for a single person to handle.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839413. Relaxed Rules Pubs - This is a debating point as I've seen some that support the idea as through patience it can increase our numbers. The contrast however is that it goes against our ehos as a community.
Two things to consider.. 1. There's no rules in competitions. Relaxed rules sharpen our ability to compete.. 2. Ever notice how if we "clan-stack" that the "dMw way" tends to pwn pubbies?
Wherever members want competition the SHs support it and we provide resource for it, that goes without saying. As for the relaxed pub rules, again this is something that is debated vigorously not just now but on an ongoing basis. It has been tried before with differing success.
Overrall though the development of any individual game is the responsibility of the SH for that game, OB and I delegated that a long time ago and put the responsibility firmly at their doorstep. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a single time where the SHs have agreed a need for a gaming resource and the community has not provided. As part of a properly controlled marketing strategy yes pubs could have their place, they are not ruled out, but equally we do not want to just provide e.g. 52 free game servers for every Tom, Dick & Harry to 'eff and blind' on at our expense, there's a balance to be struck.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839414. We all love this place and want to make it better. ...
Amen to that.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839411. Should we consider the creation of a Board with TL or OB as Chair to ensure that through the growth the ethos remains?
That's what the announced Community Admin role does.
Quote from: Ninja_Freak;2839412. Preparation and submission of an annual budget that is visable to the Supporting Members. I think that it's important for transparency purposes to see where the community's money is spent. As a qualified accountant I'd be happy to sit as treasurer and prepare the budget for the community (with the help of OB and TL of course).
I think I have already answered the second sentence so will not add to the comments already made above.
I am not really sure how you think the publication of a budget would add value for members given the fully itemised expenditure that we already publish on the forum for all members to see (which is way more than we need to do). We're not a corporation and we already have totally full and published financial data. That having been said the Community Admins do not sit there in an ivory tower and ignore planning, we discuss many aspects including but not limited to all types of revenue & expenditure, including the anticipated, possible, contingent and other. We try to balance revenue and expenditure after allowance for sufficient reserves for reasonably expected or predictable eventualities.
Epic failure apart, I hope the response was what you wanted.
TL.
Quote from: smilodon;283973... The thread was started by Oldie asking for debate ...
Sheesh :doh:
Quote from: smilodon;283973... Maybe it's run it's course though?
Yes, I think it has. My thanks to everyone who made a positive contribution.
What next?The Section Admins were asked some days ago to make sure they kept up with the comments and suggestions made here. Discussions with them have already started and a summary will follow. These things take time and I ask for your patience.
This thread will remain open but before posting please take the time to ensure that you are adding new value and not just going over old ground.
Having said that, some things can be done now and all of us have a role to play.
Back to BasicsThis is a gaming community. We play games together for fun and enjoyment. We don't tolerate spoilers, lamers, wreckers, potty-mouths or any form of cheating. We encourage and promote teamwork and respect. We don't make it easy but players who consistently demonstrate both are asked to join our ranks. We are different, we are special. Be proud to be part of it.
Try to get on the servers as often as you can (I did say this was 'basics' :)) particularly if they are running as 'public'.
Use Steam/IM etc. to encourage more to join you.
Do your best to support any 'special days' announced by the Section Admins.
When a guest joins - welcome them.
Make a conscious effort to identify 'teamplayers' and congratulate them on their style of play.
If you play elsewhere then be an ambassador for dMw. Demonstrate our style at every opportunity and use comms to encourage others to use teamwork.
Admins - be firm but fair. Our guests will judge us on your actions too so do not hesitate in removing an idiot whose behaviour is spoiling the enjoyment of the rest.
Section Admins - do a thorough review and spring clean of your section. Do you have the right number of servers? Are they configured to best attract new people? Look carefully at your admin team. Stand-down any inactive ones and promote others as necessary. Are the forums configured right for you? Look at the content. If a guest was reading your section for the first time would they have an easy job finding out what it is you offer and how to get involved?
For any server changes - speak to Whitey. For any forum changes - speak to Penfold. If we need to increase our servers then we will and we have Gandalf to sort that out for us.
And finally ...
I know I speak for TeaLeaf when I say 'our door is always open'. Do not hesitate to PM either/both of us if you feel you need to. I can promise you a response.
Quote from: Sparko;283958i just feel its all going to "end in tears", some of the posts that people have posted seem to forget that this is an online gaming community and not a business.
What NF suggests is actually not business per se. It is a common way to arrange and structure clubs, including gaming clubs. It is a proven, well-functioning structure for NGO-management.
You arent really serious, that you want a more transparent financial side on the community right?
The forum leaders have for as long as i know been more then open about the financial side of the community, more then what you would expect anywhere else..
Lets face the facts, there is one way that will make the servers more attractive, playing on em, newcomers dont join a empty server.. would you join a random empty server? i wouldnt..
So instead of us sitting here making extremely creative ideas that often doesnt really solve the problem at hand, lets go play on the servers..
you can do all the PR you want, but in the end when a chap adds the IP and see a empty server, guess what he probably aint joining
About the adoption of games, whenever someone has posted about a new game would could support its been reviewed by SH's and alike, taking into considoration whether or not it could become a success, we seen it to often a server getting created 4 people joins for a night or two and it dies out.. waste of greatly appreciated free manpower certain people put into it. With the changes its just been streamlined a bit more..
Just my two cents for now, forgive me for several typos and misspellings.. a bit tired after work today
Quote from: kregoron;284073You arent really serious, that you want a more transparent financial side on the community right?
The forum leaders have for as long as i know been more then open about the financial side of the community, more then what you would expect anywhere else..
Lets face the facts, there is one way that will make the servers more attractive, playing on em, newcomers dont join a empty server.. would you join a random empty server? i wouldnt..
So instead of us sitting here making extremely creative ideas that often doesnt really solve the problem at hand, lets go play on the servers..
you can do all the PR you want, but in the end when a chap adds the IP and see a empty server, guess what he probably aint joining
Nail-Head direct hit:)
Take tonight for eg. Neotokyo private session peaked early with a full server, a few drifted off at about nine, a load of people left and the game died. The only dMw's I could see were on L4D which had 8/8.
I had a bunch of visitors tonight but made the effort to attend, yet I was disappointed with the early finish.:sideways:
Thanks to everyone for your feedback to my posts. I've discussed any remaining thoughts directly with TL and OB (including my thoughts on Financial Transparency).
It looks like all comments to be made have been made. I truely believe that this thread shows the maturity of it's members and I also believe that a lot will come out of it.
I look forward to the changes to come and the further growth of the community. I also agree with OB's "Back to Basics" comments which we must all try to adhere to.
NF
OK anymore for anymore ?
I know some spin-off threads have started which is great but please try not to create 100's as I'm the poor sucker that'll have to sort them :). I've removed the duplicated thread and stickied the rest so that people can find them. They're all in Seriously Though.
Just so people know, this thread is not forgotten, there is work in progress but we're kind of a little delayed due to holidays and the like.
So.. How's it going management?
Which holidays were you referring to? Did I miss something?
Nope, a lot is linked into the new web front end which as you can see from another thread has been work in progress and is now making it onto a test website. As for management, there's been quite a few new ones as new games develop etc, including the new Game Development section which has already seen one game go from Trial to Live, more will follow soon I hope. A lot is still on the list atm and in progress though.
Test site is up and we're starting to learn our way around it. Design and content will come once we find the 'ON' button.
cool.. thanks for the update..
As people will have seen from the Announcement post, Web Content & Web Design sections are up and running and those who have volunteered to help have access to both the relevant section and the test web site. Content work is underway & some artwork has already been submitted, so whilst it will not be a quick process, it is underway.
Just an update on progress.
To be brutally honest progress has sucked over the last month and I am trying to push for faster progress, but it relies on the time of volunteers of whom we had too few even after repeated requests for additional help. We also seem to have some people who have volunteered to help but have not yet replied to the topics for whatever reason. The net result is that we have a small group of people doing the actual work (thank you to those) rather than the larger numbers we had hoped for and this is stretching the timescale for this massive project. I'm pushing for progress, doing some work myself, but at the end of the day there is a lot of content to re-draft, a lot of design work still to do and it is taking time. We continue the efforts, will continue to push and will report back when the prescription medication has taken full effect........
In the mean time, if you want to pick up some redrafting work, design work, or help get stuck in then please post here and we'll allocate some work.
happy to help.. any jobs for Canadian correspondents?
Absolutely. I'll sort something out for you Ninja, thank you.
Send me something to redraft and the style you want it chief !
Send me some content stuff too please (so long as it's nothing wow / racing related as I dont have a clue), what format does this need to be in?
Aye will get you both a badge sorted for the content and you can pick then!
Quote from: Snokio;307934Send me some content stuff too please (so long as it's nothing wow / racing related as I dont have a clue), what format does this need to be in?
Bump :whistle:
Smilo can you sort him a badge please so he can help!
Added Snokio to the 'web content' group and added a shiny badge too.