Im not posting the logs :flirty: go away look at the fights .... find what you can do ..... fly my winged monkeys fly :D
I want you to know that this raid has been one of the worst raid i've ever attended to, and trust me i've raided a lot.
I don't mind wiping, on the contrary. I maybe have the masochistic desire to try new fight, to put me on the line, to explore my playing limits, no matter how much it will cost in terms of repair bills. That's why i'm happy to attend raids with constructive wipes.
However, the things that made the raid a complete failure was the behaviour of some members.
When i applied to this guild, i've read the philosophy and the code of conduct of the guild and, please correct me if i'm wrong, this guild should be based on a friendly environment, where the first rule of conduct, be it written or implicit, is the respect of the other members of the guild/community. Tonight the code of conduct, and with it the philosophy the guild should represent and encourage, went in the sewers (to use a polite euphemism).
Tonight a member of this guild went afk without leaving the instance. This is happened some other times and has been tolerated, and to be completely honest, i think it's simply fair to wait 5 or 10 mins for a person, we all have our lives, and it may happen that something unforeseen forces the player away from the keyboard for a couple of mins. In addition, the members of the guild are serious people who respect the other players, thus taking breaks only when said breaks are called to avoid transforming the raid in an endless wait for someone.
At least that's what i was thinking before tonight raid. Please do not misunderstand, i still think it about the majority of the guildies.
As i said, the fact of waiting a couple of minutes for a member is simply understandable, but waiting for a member for almost one hour (literally, unfortunately) is both stupid and self-degradating.
If i'm going afk for more than 5 mins, i'm going to warn at least the raid leaders so that they can replace me if they think that the raid cannot go on without replacing me. And i expect them to replace me if the raid cannot go on without every single member, to make the raid as smooth as possible for the other members.
That's not what happened tonight. Tonight a member of the raid went afk for more than 50 mins just 2 minutes after have been invited, evidently without clearly telling the raid leaders how much time he would have spent away from the keyboard. The other raid members wasted one whole hour standing idly in front of the screen, waiting for the member to come back at any moment.
I judge unfair the behaviour of both the person who went afk and the raid leaders. The first becouse of course he acted like a spoiled brat, putting himself over 24 other people, and the raid leaders becouse they usually know better: sometimes other people can't make it exactly for the beginning of the raid and sometimes (me included) they are afk for a couple of minutes while the invites are handed, fairly enough after 5 mins people not ready are replaced and the raid is started without further delay.
Tonight the raid leaders didn't act like they usually do. I've seen me, Lola, Bay, and many others miss the raid becouse of being a couple of minutes late. Acting like this makes the member of the guild think that the members of this guild are not equal among themselves, not even if they are the same rank, becouse that makes it appear like there are people who cannot be waited for more than five minutes and people that can be waited for an hour even if that implies the troubles of having 24 other people forced to sit idly in front of the computer without being able to do anything else.
If you want to change the rules of the guild accordingly to allow this, i will not stop you, but in that case i'd like to step down as raider to social, if possible.
I am sure that the majority in the guild take a similar view Tirk and from what I know it sounds like DMR had 'one of those nights' that happens to us all at some point, it is certainly not the norm so far as I am aware. Let's hope it is not repeated and that people & their behaviour sharpen up and become both more mature & civil, both in the raid and in guild chat. DMR can do without certain types of behaviour.
For future reference: if you remove someone from the raid they get ported out within 30 seconds or so.
Well I had a night off last night, so I don't know who was running the raid, but I will find out what happened with the other officers and why.
It's a pity to see that we had this situation when plenty of our guild raiding memebers were online on time and ready to run, and weren't needed/invited to join the group... :g:
Speaking from my point of view (and just expressing a personal opinion here) I agree with Tea on the above, and what happened is not the norm at all. If there is something that I'm really sure about is that the raids run smoothly almost everynight, and that the people leading those put plenty of effort in making the runs fun, in balancing the groups and ensuring progress through the instances, and that is not easy as we all know.
Tirkad, rest assured that in the next raids you will experience what you were looking for when you joined our guild. :)
Quote from: TeaLeaf;289652For future reference: if you remove someone from the raid they get ported out within 30 seconds or so.
Did they add that in? Last time I tried that was at archimonde nearly a year ago, and the member didn't get ported out
Quote from: Jim;289660Did they add that in? Last time I tried that was at archimonde nearly a year ago, and the member didn't get ported out
Yes, it has been in game for a while now. You receive in screen a popup telling you that you will be ported out of the instance in 30 seconds while not in raid group.
i have to agree with Tirkard, Last night was a absolutely the worst run i have been on in a long while. normally raids are smooth and efficient, but last night none of us were giving it a 100% attention and i mean none of us, tbh i know there is no one to point the finger at, and that should not be done. we all need to come away from last nights run and try and figure out where we went wrong as a whole. So lets get back to it tuesday and get Thorim down in uld25 and one-shot general and yogg and back in dalaran for tea and crumpets with Ronin:roflmao:
but on a serious note we really need to get thorim down, we can clear everything in ulduar up to him but as soon as we get to him the whole raid just goes "Oh look its Thorim time to die". At this rate blizz have got it wrong Algalon is not the Raid Destroyer, Thorim is!:roflmao:
Quote from: TeaLeaf;289652I am sure that the majority in the guild take a similar view Tirk and from what I know it sounds like DMR had 'one of those nights' that happens to us all at some point, it is certainly not the norm so far as I am aware. Let's hope it is not repeated and that people & their behaviour sharpen up and become both more mature & civil, both in the raid and in guild chat. DMR can do without certain types of behaviour.
TL is right Tirk, you are not alone in your disappointment over last night & also I agree the guild chat has shocked me since my 'semi-break' from WoW. What happened to 'treat others as you wish to be treated'???
I also agree with TL on it being 'one of those nights', we just did not seem to be able to stitch together a viable solution for the pvp dudes in ToC, but I am shocked about Thorium tbh. Although saying that, Hal losing his internet connection really did not help us (*hugs* Hal). We should be able to down Thorium, he is really not that hard, it is again survival & teamwork.
My two cents worth while I wake up with my beloved coffee!
To be quite frank it's time I vent my thoughts on some stuff because last night was indeed on a new scale of crap. The following is not spoken from my officer's point of view, nor does it imply all the officers feel this way, it is just my personal view on some things here.
This guild needs a thorough weeding out if you ask me. If it were all down to me there would only be around 15 people of our current raiding roster I would consider caring and able to progress beyond our current cockblock. We are at the point where everyone knows the tactics, but only half of us actually give a damn enough to execute them properly. I really wonder how some of us made it to 80 sometimes. For 3 weeks now we have been absolutely nowhere at all, people behaving like amateurs. It is really showing that when it comes down to people playing for themselves we have a large segment of the roster simply not being able to. It's *not* the gear, people with similar kit have gone well beyond where we are, and it's *not* the tactics, those are set out for us by hundreds of other guilds out there. It, ladies and gentlemen, is simply us. I've heard of guilds on our very server who have oneshotted past Faction Champs. We can hide behind "but that's Guild X, they have Kit Y and 10 billion dps", but really, the gear is not such a huge difference that it should take us over 3 weeks of ramming our heads against a brick wall whilst they casually strole through. The difference? They have 25 people in the raid who know how to play, who realise that raiding is more than standing and hitting stuff, who know their CD rotations by heart so their eyes aren't clamped to their buttons or some cooldown monitor, who have the actual ability to move when the screen is flaring red with an aggro or Fire(tm) warning. If there's people who don't want to go into the depth of their class or put in every effort to progress, that's fine, I respect that, it's your monthly fee, play the game the way you like it. But gtfo of a raiding guild aiming to progress then! Naxx25 was very forgiving, Ulduar25 flexible at times, but we're at the point where we simply cannot progress with people messing about like this. There's only so much in terms of tactics, dps rotations etc. that we can throw at you. If people don't pick up what's being laid down then we're getting nowhere.
About the Zahrah matter. I don't mind people doing what they do and I respect that, but if you know that this is going to happen, don't accept the raid invite when I toss you one. I thought you'd only be gone for 5 maybe 10 minutes, enough for us to buff up and clear trash. On my behalf I should have probably just left you out of the raid and get Semi in instead but I didn't. Really, it's not that I don't *want* to replace people who are afk for >5 minutes, I do, but often we don't have the luxury to be so strict because we need those people to fill the raid apparently.
It's time people start thinking to themselves what we want. Are we prepared to wipe nights, spending gold on flasks and repairs, prepared to learn from our wipes and not just make the same mistakes again, prepared to do what it takes in terms of getting to know your class to the max, and progress? Or do we want alt raids, clearing Naxx and early Ulduar while we can and call it quits at the point where we are now? Because without 25 people making the first decision, we are not getting past Thorim/Faction Champs.
It seems i have to clarify some points of my post, that maybe due to the fact that it was late and i was tired i put the wrong words to explain my feelings.
I am not talking about the game related stuff here. As i said in my post, i don't mind in the slightest the wiping nights, and every officer knows how many wipes we had when we used to have the pioneer group for ulduar 10. Just in the first week i spent something like 600g only for repair bills, regemming, respeccing (was looking for the optimal one) flasking and so on. Yet you didn't hear a word from me, becouse i think now as i did 3 months ago that those gold were well spent, since i love experiencing new stuff and have new challanges.
What i'm debating here is people behaviour, human behaviour towards other people, and this is much more important than a wipe or two due to lack of attention.
I understand connection issues, i really do, since the connection itself may be bad on some nights more than others, and hal has all my understanding, becouse it used to happen to me and i know how frustrating it can be.
What i really can't tolerate is the fact that some people feel free to let 24 (twentyfour!!!) other people wait for him. In the past we had member with rl emergencies, like have to bring the child to the hospital. But even whe it happened, the person hit by this event asked the raid leader for a substitution, so to not damage the game experience of his friends. Yes, friends. I don't know what some people think there is behind the characters flashing on the screen in the game, but to me, there are people behind those chars, people i see as friends.
Garrit, i know you're not used to this kind of situations, also because i know you did what you did becouse you always think the best of people, but as it has been proved yesterday, i hope you're now aware that there are selfish people too. I know you did this to be kind to a relatively new member, but it wasn't the best decision. Again, your only fault is maybe that you're too kind.
On the other side, those selfish people need to understand that this is a MMORPG, a game that implies interaction with other people, with all the fun and the problems it can bring. When you go out with your friends, you will never let them wait idly for an hour for you, whatever you have to do. You say "sorry mates, i have something important to do that can't wait, if you want to go on without me, please do. We can meet at the restaurant/bar/pub later, if you want". That means respecting your friends, or if you don't see them as friends, at least respect them as other people.
It's sad i have to write this, really, since these are the very basic rules of interaction between people that parents SHOULD teach their children in a very early age.
P.S.: about the porting out, i think it only works in instances (not raid group). Last time i had this problem was in MH and, as Jim pointed out, it didn't work.
Porting out works fine. I have had to do it several times recently in raid instances and it worked no problem.
In terms of attitude to others and the way they are treated then I can say that Council is aware of what went on and are dealing with it, so I think you can safely say the point is acknowledged and will be sorted. DMR is known as a friendly guild with high levels of respect and maturity - we expect everyone to adhere to that and in the vast majority of cases that's usually what happens. Every now and then someone or something will kick off, but that's the nature of life, the universe & everything. The test is how it is dealt with and then we move on together again, better educated and a better guild.
For terms of clarity, large part of my post is standalone and isn't aimed at the original topic. They are my thoughts on last night and our raiding in general so not necessarily a direct response to Tirkad.
Hi everyone
I basically agree with Tirkad and Garrit. Last nite was shocking and unfortunately, we all have a part to play in that. I acknowledge we all make mistakes (even if I was an octopus I still wouldn't have enough tentacles to count them on) and we all have off days but as Garrit has said, the last 3 weeks have been zero progress.
I think it's the mindset TBH and here is where I stick my tuppence worth in:
We don't work as a team, I couldn't really see anyone helping out each other it was every man (& woman) for themselves. We need to all go back and take a look at ALL the abilities of your char/spec and if necessary go duel guildies or take a peek in a BG and work out how to survive in a PVP world, see how you can damage other classes and what classes will whup your botty in a one shot leaving you lying in the field of strife in shock while they get the /love achievement on your dead body. Work on it, understand it and most of all realise that if the person next to you whether it be tank/dps/healer, is as important as you, as we all know there is no 'I' in TEAM.
Now onto some other bugbears of mine, not gonna single anyone out but re-read the basic raid rules. Come with pots, food and money to repair, it is not acceptable for anything less than that because you are failing the other 24 people in that raid. And if you can't stay for the full duration or need a few (or more than a few) mins at the start then be honest and tell a raid leader so they can make that decision whether to replace you at the beginning or not, again it is not acceptable to AFK and leave 24 people hanging.
Things like battle resses are not forthcoming, to me they are a big diff between winning and failing, we should not wait to be 'told' to b/res someone just do it and call it on TS before you do (because no one else apart from the raid leader will be speaking right) make the judgement call yourself. We need things like frost nova, mirror image, hunters traps, rooting, cyclone, spell steal, counterspell (you can tell I only have 2 lvl 80's chars right) constantly on the go. For example when I was frost trapped last nite, I shifted into bear cos it untraps me rather than standing there getting hit by a whirlwind, oke it might take a bit of your mana away but you can run and shift right back rather than wasting time trying to heal yourself through it when you could be healing your group.
One thing we fail at is not listening on TS, I really don't know how the raid leader/officers donââ,¬â,,¢t scream sometimes. The second fail is not admitting you donââ,¬â,,¢t understand something. I'm not the most versed WoW player by a long shot but I'm not afraid to hold my hand up and say I don't geddit. There are so many other things but my main point is lets get our act together, practice like we all did on the daily Q when we were failing on EoE go BG instead (am loving the idea of a guild premade) but take a step back, re-evaluate your play style and char's abilities and make a commitment to the fellow raiders and guildies.
Finally I agree with Ame g/chat has become shocking there have been 2 instances very recently where I have really wondered what has become of this friendly helpful & mature minded guild and me being honest, I actually questioned why I was still in it. BUT I realise that these instances are the minority and the vast majority of the people are normal and really lovely and I enjoy being in DMR.
I really hope we succeed very soon my lovelies :D
Wot she said
I think we all have the same frustrations
My thoughts.
The positives.
The raid was not the worst ever, we made progress getting 3 dudes down. Learnt tactics tried new tactics.
Most knew about the posts made on the tactics of this fight.
The banter was good, we traded flasks and herbs and stuff.( i know its not the right time really)
Did we have enough tanks? well if we didnt we did great.
The Negatives.
The waiting around was tedious but we all get the odd DC and understand this is more frustrating for the individual. 3 DC's in raid or afk 5mins plus = removed from raid.
Some of the tactics were questioned, at the appropriate time, :) and a objective sensible response was given as to why who when etc, :) but others huffin and swearing when questions were asked is stupid at best, at worst they have a superiority complex that needs addressing in RL as much as WOW.
I disagree that only 15 or so are serious, (and assume that i am in on the 15 but then again I think at least 24 of us last night assume we are in the 15)
If we don't perform as individuals we need to be told, or how do we know we are doing something wrong ? When and how we are told is also pertinent.
We have some funny clever people in the group I would not like to lose any, but better to discuss that stew.
Quote from: Sithvid;289764If we don't perform as individuals we need to be told, or how do we know we are doing something wrong ? When and how we are told is also pertinent.
I only agree up to a certain level. It wouldn't be such a big deal if people were misunderstanding tactics or something like that. Sure we'll correct you if it's simply ignorance on the correct procedure. But the problem is bigger. We should definetly not have to tell people if/that they are doing something wrong in the cases I see, the whole "standing in fire(tm)" metafor.
Maybe i've got an idea about the discussion on the faction champions fight. The raid leader/officers/role leaders may open a thread in the appropriate folders, where people will talk exclusively about that class/role (like for example "Holidins: live and let live" in the healers folder, or "hunter - the path of healthy pew pew", in the ranged dps folder). Once the thread has developed some nice idea, the person who opened the topic (raid leader/officer/role leader) can discuss those ideas with the council in a private thread, to avoid confusion.
Just an idea, anyway. :)
EDIT: In my opinion, one of the reason we struggle to get a successful tactic is the dinamic setup of our raids. I'm not necessarily talking about people, but classes. For example one time we have a shaman and 2 hunters, and the other we have no shammies, no hunters and 1 more mage, one more paladin and one more lock. With a different setup, the group have to learn again how to interact in the most efficient way. I hope i've brought my thoughts into words clearly enough.