Ok so I just quit mid-raid, mid-fight even.
Why? Because to be frank I have hit the limit. I have had it with our raiding style. I've also had it with having to hold back on my opinion due to my officer rank and the fact that I should remain calm and try to help people out and sorting problems instead of getting mad.
But I've tried, and it's just no use is it? I can tell you lot a hundred times to go and check rotations etc. but what's the point if nobody gives a damn? Honestly, I don't care if people don't want to be lvl in terms of skill. It's your game, it's your money. But then don't come to a ToC25 raid, because guess what.. it doesn't work that way! I look at the logs and I see people doing 6.5k dps. That's great! Too bad it's only 3/4 of them and the curve is a rapidly descending one after that.
Tell you my opinion, even though there have been small victories at times, they are few and far inbetween. We have been slacking about for a very long time now and I have pretty much had it. I said it this night in response to someone saying "it's just not our night". It's never our night! In fact, every once in a blue moon, it *is*. We've been hampered by people d/c'ing if someone farts too loud, people responding too slow on special events, etc. etc. for ages now, it's not something of the last few weeks.
I can keep telling myself that DMR is such a great guild cause the people are so friendly, and they are, they really are, but there's a voice in my head asking: if raiding (more or less the only time I am logged on for 3hrs+, and the only thing I really like to do in this game) is this bad, then why am I staying? 2 other voices have answered: A) Responsability as an officer and B) Social atmosphere. But that one voice is getting louder and to be honest, he has a point. I'm paying for this game on a monthly basis and the one part of it that is supposed to be loads of fun for me feels more and more like talking to a brick wall lately.
If it has to be like this, then I just don't feel like it anymore really. I don't mean a grudge against people, I don't mean to tell people "you suck!", I just want everyone to think for themselves, "What do I want from this game?"
Do I want to kill every raiding boss in the game, do I want the fat purples? That's cool, but work for it! It's not going to get handed to you on a plate!
Do I want to enjoy the game as a game, playing it as best I can but not going to hardcore uber extremes? Fine too, it's your money after all! But then ask yourself if you are not reaching the peak of where you can go as a raider.
It's not a question I'm asking people individually. I am not at power to act upon those answers nor do I pretend nor want to be. But we need to find an answer to this question as a guild, because we cannot run 50/50 raidgroups.
My personal answer is: Put in the effort, or don't come wasting a space in a raid with people who do want to clear the game. I *know* that we don't have the luxury of saying "Ok well you're not doing enough dps/doing your job right, so we're replacing you", but it's time we are honest to ourselves about it.
A question from me: Am I still in a guild that wants to clear content, or are people at the point where they feel they have reached the summit of their possibilities? Cause I can't keep getting bounced around between my wish to go further than this and my feeling of guilt and responsibility to the guild if I did.
I understand you Garrit, ooh i do.
Last week we twoshotted thoose twins, and now we are back at ppl not doing what they need to.
:thumb:
i can only speak for my self at this point of time, since i have just been promoted, but i do support the fact of we need to get our act streight if we want to continue being hardcore.
- claw
Quote from: Azunai;291407I look at the logs and I see people doing 6.5k dps. That's great! Too bad it's only 3/4 of them and the curve is a rapidly descending one after that.
The same can be said on the healing side of our raids (raiding isn't only about dps, you know). Different fights suit different healing classes better, however same class, same spec, same gear level and yet a incredibly different output is beyond me! What we do have is a 100% excellent selection of tanks, which is fortunate. It doesn't matter who's tanking of you guys, we can always depend on you.
This guild is worth staying in for its people. And the raiding hours are great! If we could make a generally softcore guild to become hardcore a few hours a few nights a week, it would be the dream guild in my eyes. But nothing comes for free, does it?
ok, this is also something I've been thinking a lot about myself recently and I find myself in a similar position to Garrit. I want to progress. I want us all to progress. But we need people to really work at it.
We have some great members, who know their class, the fights and can really push out the required DPS. But there are also some that, for whatever reason, are an order of magnitude below others of their class.
I want everyone to raid. I want everyone to have fun, however as it stands we are going to end up frustrating the people that want to progress to the point that they leave, then no-one raids!
So we need to do something about this to get the fun back in raiding. The best raid night I've done in a long time was the other week when we ran 2 x 10 mans side by side. That was a blast, not only because the fights are easier, but because each team worked really well together and listened as in a 10 man, if one person doesn't pull their weight, all suffer.
In 25 man, it's easy enough to drag an underperforming members through on the easier fights, but when we get to the tougher ones, we hit a brick wall as Garrit so eloquently puts it.
I introduced the class leaders into the guild structure just for this purpose. You guys need to be looking at the combat logs of the raids, identifying people who are underperforming, and finding out why! Then see what can be done to get them up to speed.
It is getting to the point now where we, the officers, are going to start making the decisions that no-one wants to make. We will start leaving people from raids if they consistantly show poor performance. If that means that we only run 10 mans that night, then that is what it will be.
And please, if you have a problem with how you play the game and can't seem to get the level of performance others do, ask! The forums are here, we are all friendly and want to help each other.
Quote from: Gandalf;291420It is getting to the point now where we, the officers, are going to start making the decisions that no-one wants to make. We will start leaving people from raids if they consistantly show poor performance. If that means that we only run 10 mans that night, then that is what it will be.
I don't think those dedicated to raiding are up for 10-m instances every raid night, even though I think you're right that those are generally more fun as we're performing better.
This is why I think it's really valuable to use the initiate trial period to evaluate a player's raiding skills/attitude and then make a decision whether they're material for it or not and take action as soon as possible. To avoid ending up with underperforming members who cba to listen, shape up or ask for advice - demote them to social if they like to stay in the guild and find players more in line with our raiding philosophy. Raidingwise we're not a charity organization, are we?
We had a bunch of new players coming from Eye of Ra (that's the name right?) who became socials at once. I'm confident there's more talent to be found amongst them - why don't you test more of them a few nights and replace the honoured who aren't worth the title?
Quote from: Gandalf;291420And please, if you have a problem with how you play the game and can't seem to get the level of performance others do, ask! The forums are here, we are all friendly and want to help each other.
I'm afraid that those who hasn't read previous "get a grip" posts, won't read this one either. Or if they read them and didn't understand the last time, they won't suddenly grow a brain and realize what it is about.
Oh, harsh post. Here, have a cookie.
Quote from: Mezzanine;291424Oh, harsh post. Here, have a cookie.
Yay for cookies! :wub:
Some good comments there, thank you. Please keep them coming :)
Performance section of DMR Direction (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=288259#post288259) updated.
to be honest with everyone, the most fun i have had raiding in the last few weeks is the 10man grps we have going on the off nights, take wenesday for example a grp of us cleared ony, toc and then waited around for voa and cleared that aswell. it doesn't matter who was in the grp or what the dps was the point i am making is at the 10man content we are great we can clear it all, but when it comes to the 25man stuff we suck big time:crying:
Patch 3.3 is already hitting the PTR this week which means Icecrown Citadel will be with us in a few months. and lets face it we will not be rolling up in there banging on the Throne room door and asking the lich king to die by our blades, we will roll up to the throne room and the lich king will say "DMR have they come to tickle me or perform a ballet?"
so its pretty much a point in tme now where we all need to step back and think what the hell are we doing wrong?
Last week we downed the twins got onto Anub and we kept wiping and we will keep wiping as we do not have the dps to bring him down, its the same situation with Thorim. We are just baning our heads againist a brick wall!
In terms of progression we are months behind all the other guilds on the server. I know we are not a hardcore raiding guild, and i am very thankful for that as it allows me to spend time with my wife and kids:) but we have several choices open to us either we continue to bang our heads againist the wall or we explore other options.
1 - Pull our fingers out of which ever orifice we have them shoved up and learn our classes better than we do now, and continue with the 25mans and nuke yogg and anub and still be back in time for Tea and Crumppets on the Lawn!
2- We have a change of direction, what ever the officers decide that is:norty:
I apologise if i have offended any1 but hey ho these things need saying, i love DMR and i love the people in the guild, we all get along with each other great:)
/end Rant
Regards
Dave
Thing is... Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Contructive instructions, communication to those concerned.
I advice you to not implement written rules that are not executed; it gives a false impression it's under control. Trust me, I know it's easier said than done, but any DMR Raiding Guideline will fall flat if the DMR management itself isn't adhering to the consequences members will suffer if rules aren't followed.
@ Officers. We have quite a few of you. First of all, make sure you don't belong to those not obiding by guild guidelines. You're the role models. If you don't have to do what is asked of you as a raider, noone else bothers either. Make sure you have an optimal structure among your lot to help out the best you can in the direction that is meant for DMR - decisions are best made if they're thouroghly discussed, either in your own forum, or in the officers' chat. Guild politics is tough and ungrateful business and shouldn't be shouldered individually.
@ Classleaders. You need to step up. That's a start. Make sure you have the backup you need from the management and work on players not performing satisfactory. That, along with arranging sub-tactics in class channels, must be your main task. If you don't do it, there's going to be "helpful" whispers all over the place or more rude shouts in raid chat, doing more harm than good. Report back to the management who or what isn't working as well as why, together with strategic advice how to move on.
God, I'm running out of cookies...
And rest assured, there is plenty of talking going on 'behind the scenes'
We will resolve this.
Hi all
First off I wasn't in last nite's raid but I fully 'get' where Garrit is coming from and I too am going to be totally honest and probably harsh but I'm not going to apologise for it either. What I do hope is that you understand that this post is borne out of total frustration.
Over the last few months we have made little progress and this is down to the fact that we have people amongst us who think their play style needs no change, that their attitude is fine, that they know the tactics and think that basically the sun shines out of an orifice down below - I have news for those people who think that you need to wake up and take a good look at your overall performance, because there are some seriously slack people continually joining us on our 25 man expeditions.
Now to be balanced I'm not perfect, I'm not the best healer and I definitely do not have the best gear and I know I will never be an 'uber' player BUT I do try my hardest, I abide by the raid rules, I respect our raid/class leaders, I explore my spec and my play style and have asked others how they play and have tried to make changes to ensure I give it my all and yes we all have off days but in the main, I don't slack raid after raid after raid.
So to my fellow raiders if you aren't performing as well as you should be do something about it. For example, I see people (and no names mentioned) on the faction bosses standing there, not moving, getting hit and expecting to be healed through it. Trust me I'm not going to do that, as those individuals are not worth my mana, when I see others who do what they are supposed to, they will get priority. End of.
To the officers/raid/class leaders you need to be harsh, you need to remove consistent under performers and if they leave then so what? Like Mezz quite rightly said utilise some of the ex-Eyes of Ra socials. The underperformers are not worth the investment if they refuse to change or learn and I think it's very sad that Garrit felt so frustrated he quit mid-raid and I can totally understand it. What you are forgetting is there is a core of players who are good, loyal and passionate and you expect them (and you) to wipe nite after nite because the shite ones are still allowed to raid.
If you don't do something soon you are only going to be left with a reduced amount of core raiders, it will take one significant person leaving and you will find this will cause a domino effect and you will be stuck doing 10 man's for ever.
I'd also like to make one more comment to the raid leaders, you need to start listening to people when they make suggestions and if it's not a viable one then explain that, people are making suggestions and the general feeling (no it's not just my view) is "the suggestions are just dismissed".
Unfortunately, some of the people who need to be actually reading this are not regular forum users and are probably too busy jacking off over, as Garrit said, and think they are of that ââ,¬Ëœuberââ,¬â,,¢ standard when really they suck big hairy donkey balls.
I really hope to see some changes really soon and I really hope we progress but again as Mezz said:
"Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Constructive instructions, communication to those concerned".
Quote from: Lola;291473Unfortunately, some of the people who need to be actually reading this are not regular forum users and are probably too busy jacking off over, as Garrit said, and think they are of that ââ,¬Ëœuberââ,¬â,,¢ standard when really they suck big hairy donkey balls.
I think this is actually a big part of the problem and something that needs addressing. I'm certainly open to suggestions here, as the Guild Message of the Day does have 'check the forums!' in there, but it's clear that not everyone does.
Quote from: Lola;291473I really hope to see some changes really soon and I really hope we progress but again as Mezz said:
"Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Constructive instructions, communication to those concerned".
I agree too, and that is exactly why I brought in the Class Leaders. To assist with that. I had so much to handle that I wanted another level of 'officer' there to assist with the performance aspect. Hence Class Leaders were born. Class Leaders, please, re-read the job description and make sure you are doing what is required! If you don't feel up to the job, let me know and we can find someone else who can!
I want DMR to be a fun place to be, but I also want us to progress in raids and that means that some harsh decisions will need to be made. We will still be a fun social guild, but official raids are going to become more serious from now on.
Quote from: Gandalf;291476I think this is actually a big part of the problem and something that needs addressing. I'm certainly open to suggestions here, as the Guild Message of the Day does have 'check the forums!' in there, but it's clear that not everyone does
Is there a tool on this site where you can see who has logged on or who hasn't logged on in a long time or like ever since they made their original app?
Quote from: Gandalf;291476Class Leaders, please, re-read the job description and make sure you are doing what is required! If you don't feel up to the job, let me know and we can find someone else who can!
I think that speaks volumes, I think most are up to it but I don't think all are (not saying that I could do any better btw) to be really honest.
Quote from: Gandalf;291476I want DMR to be a fun place to be... but official raids are going to become more serious from now on.
Good pleased to hear it. You and the officers need to be hard on us
all and if it's not in your nature then recruit a (delete as applicable) 'bad news you're out/you suck/you don't not have the required IQ of an amoeba to understand tictacs' (oke maybe not that harsh but you get my drift and underlying annoyance at our current situation) class leader who wouldn't think twice about delivering the message.
Quote from: Gandalf;291470And rest assured, there is plenty of talking going on 'behind the scenes'
We will resolve this.
This i am glad to hear mate:)
but i dont mean to step out of line or anything but this problem needs to be resolved as soon as possible, or over the next few raids if we keep going the way we are the whole thing is going to fall apart. I for one and, i know everyone else does not want this to happen, but after pouring over the logs from last night and previous raids, and with also a bit of guidence from TL i have brought my haste rating from 394 to 541 and that has brought my dps up on the target dummys in IF by a extra 500:)
Quote from: Lola;291491Is there a tool on this site where you can see who has logged on or who hasn't logged on in a long time or like ever since they made their original app?
Only in the admin console. But this is a very good idea. I will see if there is an easy way of extracting this data and posting it up in the officers area so we can monitor this.
Quote from: Lola;291491Good pleased to hear it. You and the officers need to be hard on us all and if it's not in your nature then recruit a (delete as applicable) 'bad news you're out/you suck/you don't not have the required IQ of an amoeba to understand tictacs' (oke maybe not that harsh but you get my drift and underlying annoyance at our current situation) class leader who wouldn't think twice about delivering the message.
You know, you're right. It's not in my nature. I am an easy going person and I don't like upsetting people. But in reality it's just never going to work, so I will find someone who can do this as it sure does need doing.
Quote from: Bellanie;291493This i am glad to hear mate:)
but i dont mean to step out of line or anything but this problem needs to be resolved as soon as possible, or over the next few raids if we keep going the way we are the whole thing is going to fall apart. I for one and, i know everyone else does not want this to happen, but after pouring over the logs from last night and previous raids, and with also a bit of guidence from TL i have brought my haste rating from 394 to 541 and that has brought my dps up on the target dummys in IF by a extra 500:)
We sure will, it'll be sorted for Sunday. I am in the process of summarising all the posts in this thread from everyone and I want you all to continue posting up your thoughts and concerns, no matter how minor.
Great to hear about your DPS increase :) Lets hope some others take note and follow your example.
Good posts from everyone.
Think a good plan is to get people learning tactics in 10man raids. They are easier to do, but whilst doing them people can be tutored as to what they are doing wrong because it will be easier to see in 10man than 25.
We've got a good individuals but somewhere we are just not working as a team in 25 man.
I'm well up for more 10 man runs. But they need to be mixed up teams more often to teach people, not just the same bunch going. I know the same 1337's going means easier runs and loot but the guild needs training!!
:taz:
Quote from: DannagE;291498Good posts from everyone.
Think a good plan is to get people learning tactics in 10man raids. They are easier to do, but whilst doing them people can be tutored as to what they are doing wrong because it will be easier to see in 10man than 25.
We've got a good individuals but somewhere we are just not working as a team in 25 man.
I'm well up for more 10 man runs. But they need to be mixed up teams more often to teach people, not just the same bunch going. I know the same 1337's going means easier runs and loot but the guild needs training!!
:taz:
Yes we could train during raids, however this is our problem. That is exactly what we seem to be doing for some members.
Really, there are plenty of videos out there and it doesn't take too long to watch them so you can get an idea of the fight. But it appears that we still have people who just don't know what to do in certain fights.
I don't want to have to spend ten minutes at the start of each fight talking over tactics, everyone should know them. We should rock up to the boss, full rebuff if required and then get stuck in once targets are assigned.
Quote from: Mezzanine;291424We had a bunch of new players coming from Eye of Ra (that's the name right?) who became socials at once. I'm confident there's more talent to be found amongst them
Most of those that want to raid are allready doing so. But there is a problem with most of us. We only ever cleared to start of ulduar 10 man (kolo was as far as we got), so there is quiet a gear deficit to make up. Speaking for myself it is coming along, but not nearly as fast as i would want it to.
On the flip side, i have been speaking to Athuran, and he has been a great help. Between the two of us i managed to crank my dps up by about 500, but my gear is letting me down at the moment. :sideways:
Gear is something I can understand, but it is worth reminding people that you can get badges outside of the TOC instance too. Ulduar at best provided i226 items and you can equal and beat this by:
Buying i226 gear with Badges of Conquest that drop from any dungeons that previously dropped Emblems of Heroism or Valor, such as Naxxramas or Heroic Halls of Stone. A few in-guild Naxx clears or heroic runs buys you a lot of 'equivalent to best Ulduar gear' very quickly.
Both the 10 and 25 player instances of the Crusaders' Coliseum drop Emblems of Triumph so you get a lot per run.
The heroic dungeon daily quest gives 2 Emblems of Triumph and the normal daily dungeon quest gives 1 Emblem of Triumph. It took on my pala & Garrit healing about 10 minutes to do the daily heroic in UK today and we're 2 Emblems oif Triumph to the better for it.
Ulduar - i226 loot (yes it goes a little higher on HM and end bosses - i232 & i239)
Emblems of Conquest - i226 loot
Emblems of Triumph - i245 loot or use it to buy i232/i245 tier 9 set items
Bottom line is nobody should be struggling hugely through lack of gear as badges should bring most slots up to a decent iLevel. You can get 4 pieces of Tier 8 (Ulduar) gear without ever setting foot into Ulduar, simply by grinding out Heroics and getting a couple of lucky drops from Emalon. To get the Tier 8 hat and gloves, you would need a combined total of 116 badges. At roughly four badges per Heroic, that's just shy of 30 Heroics. That sounds like a lot, but isn't a lot at all.
I saw very nice and constructive posts here, but before adding my 2 cents, i have to make a little premise.
Garrit, i really know how you feel, trust me. It's the very same feeling i had a couple of months ago when we had the members problem and we kept boosting (let's call things with their proper names) people in
greens and lvl 70 blues into Ulduar 25 becouse it seemed we didn't have any other choice. I was really frustrated by that, becouse i was feeling like we had people in party who really didn't care about the other guild members being burdened like that, and didn't bother in gearing up outside the instance like TL remembered in the post below. I asked myself the very same questions you do now, Garrit, and i was invited in a quite hardcore guild by some friends there. However, i realized that i do not want to join an hardcore guild again, if i don't know the people who are in, becouse i really had bad experiences in one of them. So i kept my good attitude in raids, without caring about the lack of progress and about all the wipes, and on the opposite, giving my best to do my part, trusting the officers and their choice, believing that i was doing my part for the guild overall progress.
I don't want to comment the raid progress with rants or pointing fingers, but i'd like to put in evidence some points:
- As Garrit and Gandalf pointed out, there are 2 ranks in the guild, raider and social. I want people to know that those ranks don't imply a difference in how the guild member is treated, they have both the same value in terms of community, but the raider have responsibilities he MUST attend to. Every raider has to give his best in order to let the raid succeed. And by his best i don't mean just spending money to have the best flasks/gems/enchants/food before the raid starts, but to prepare himself/herself to play his/her class as close to the best he/she can get. This is a tough work, becouse it implies a lot of time spent on trying every single variation in the rotation, check forums, asking for helps, analysing and deeply knowing every single spell in their spellbook, realizing when you can use each spell with the best effectiveness. This will show the other party members your value as a raider and your will to make this guild progress.
- About the 10 men raids, i really had some nice time last wed, when in a couple of mins more than 2 hours we downed onyxia and cleared the whole ToC, with the remarkable success of being just 10 seconds late for the speed kill on the twins (my deepest gratitude to all the raiders: You rock!), maybe that was becouse we went with just me and jim healing, so there were 6 dps instead of the usual 5, but still. However, maybe in our situation we have to use another strategy. I was thinking about having a 10 men raid planned during an offday where 2 or 3 members will be asked to attend with their class leader who will follow them very closely, checking every bit of their rotation and their movements in fight and giving suggestion that must be kept in the utmost consideration by the player. I know the group will not enjoy the 10 men steamrolling for that week, but i think it's a good idea to improve the pace of the 25 men raids.
- Last but not least, as Gandalf suggested, i really approve a more dynamic promoting/demoting in ranks. This is for the guild sake, since we can't have among raiders people who do not want to be raiders. Again, being social it's not something bad, it's another way to enjoy the game, and if you don't want to spend time or you feel bad with the amount of pressure a raider have to stand to, trust me, that's the rank you want be in this guild, it will be much more fun for you to play wow, and you'll still enjoy every single aspect of this wonderful community.
Just my 2 cents.
mmm. Some constructive points.
Again the same 10 or so people commenting what about the other 15 or so?
I think the moaning is getting a bit much tbh. If someone isnt performing tell them direct, at the right time.
Feedback is a gift sometimes hard to give, harder, to receive. Feedback in a scatter gun style in a forum not read by all intended, is not feedback at all.
You may feel better but unless you change behaviour, the outcome will not change.
I read this and think was it me ? am I one of the intended?
Did my actions or inactions cause a wipe, cause 5 wipes? am I not being healed now because I suck ? I know I messed up one colour change.
Officers, I have mentioned this before, you are tactical leaders, i.e. you lead very effectively through the tactics of the fights.
You can delegate feedback, personality and other social issues.
The thing is we all need to look at our toons and find how to improve. Thorim fight is a good example most of our the damage is in the 3-4k area ... seeing some logs with our gear it should be around 8-10k. Its a case of using the fight mechanics. So its not a small improvement these are a massive boost and we need to abuse them.
Quote from: JonnyAppleSeed;291675The thing is we all need to look at our toons and find how to improve. Thorim fight is a good example most of our the damage is in the 3-4k area ... seeing some logs with our gear it should be around 8-10k. Its a case of using the fight mechanics. So its not a small improvement these are a massive boost and we need to abuse them.
I agree with you. That's why i suggested to organize some ulduar10 runs with fixed classes. We can't train in heroics since the bosses will be dead before even finishing the first round of the rotation or blow up the first proc, so i think if we spend a night in ulduar with for example 3 warriors and 3 hunters (classes chosen randomly just to put up the example) as dps, the raiders will have an easier time to compare their gameplay and to fix anything should be fix, improve their rotation, spec, and so on, since they will experience the very same buffs/debuffs and the very same combat situation.
Quote from: Tirkad;291679I agree with you. That's why i suggested to organize some ulduar10 runs with fixed classes. We can't train in heroics since the bosses will be dead before even finishing the first round of the rotation or blow up the first proc, so i think if we spend a night in ulduar with for example 3 warriors and 3 hunters (classes chosen randomly just to put up the example) as dps, the raiders will have an easier time to compare their gameplay and to fix anything should be fix, improve their rotation, spec, and so on, since they will experience the very same buffs/debuffs and the very same combat situation.
I really like the idea of that. I'm new to most of the fights we've been having recently and although I've looked at the videos of the fights before hand, it can't fully prepare you for them. Having a chance to go through them first on 10 man would give the practical experience. Even if they were organised on an off night.
Sithvid:
Im not talking on behalf of other "15", but if it comes to me about commenting stuff, I am not very talkative person, and english isnt my first language. Both dont make me very comfortable with long comments :)
Secondly, most I'd like to say is alredy mentioned above, so comment "Yes I agree, and not going to type it again" is just silly. Anyway, I keep myself updated with our forum all the time, as I care much about our community stuff :)
Mat
Normally i dont write much in forums but ill give it a go.
ive read all the comments from the people on here and with most of those complaints ive got to agree with unfortunatly. totally understand why garrit got ****ed off about the whole raiding as a guild as thats one of my reasons why i started to raid less lately.
What i miss in the raid mainly is listening, not only from raiders but also from officers/classleaders to their raiders. No teamwork what so ever and lots of people not anticipating on the fights.
on top of that i see people around:
- d/c each 10 min, well i guess you wont like the d/c either but guess how it is for 24 people waiting AGAIN for you getting back up. think its quite normal that somebody d/c once and a while but having 15+ d/c on a raid isnt normal in my opinion.
- people not fully enchanting and gemming.
- people not moving out on the so called fire
- people not flasking up.
- people not gettting in there repaired so they have to go repair after 1-2 wipes.
- people not bringing or dont bring enough reagents with them.
- same for pots , flask and food buffs.
basicly alot of people in the raid severly underperforming (which could be a result already from one of the above mentioned points also)
I could mention alot of names with that but in my opinion that should be taken care of by the officers/classleaders to check on those points and take actions to the person, with a warning and if things dont get any better even a remove from the raid.
Its kinda hard for me to keep on being motivated when i give 200% in a fight and the person next to me doesnt give a flying :ranting2: to move out of the so called fire.
I dont mind wiping at all, as ive done my share of wiping in the last 5 years of raiding.I do mind bashing my head pointlessly to a brick wall!!
In other words officers/classleaders need to step up and do what they are assigned for or quite frankly there wont be a raid group left anymore to lead if this goes on the way it goes now.
Thats my complaints/opinions as a raider / ex-officer / ex-raidleader.
Quote from: Gandalf;291494Only in the admin console. But this is a very good idea. I will see if there is an easy way of extracting this data and posting it up in the officers area so we can monitor this.
Make a post listing all Raiding members, ask them all to respond with an "Aye" and delete them from the list or put replied next to it. The people who do not respond within a set time get demoted to social or Dog Bin. These people have to reply on the forum to gain back the Raider status, if they do not they don't raid.
Also Why not name and shame? If you want to have the raider (Raider badge meaning i really want to help the guild progress and take it seriously) badge and get good gear then you will have to take it on the chin if your not pulling your weight. I would get angry, get upset and then sort myself out if i was causing an issue in a raid. If people quit then your better off without them.
These are both points that should be taken if you want to seriously raid, if not choose social. Yes they may seem harsh but it should get the results you require.
Good post though brings up all the points that were annoying me and why i stopped rading for a while :D But hey im a tank thats easy :P
Quote from: smite;291733Also Why not name and shame? If you want to have the raider (Raider badge meaning i really want to help the guild progress and take it seriously) badge and get good gear then you will have to take it on the chin if your not pulling your weight. I would get angry, get upset and then sort myself out if i was causing an issue in a raid. If people quit then your better off without them.
I don't agree with this method. I consider it bullying. Issues should be resolved individually, between the eyes of the raider and the class leader. That's why I rather have the CLs take care of it before people are starting to shout out names on the forum, on TS or in raid chat.
Quote from: Mezzanine;291790I don't agree with this method. I consider it bullying. Issues should be resolved individually, between the eyes of the raider and the class leader. That's why I rather have the CLs take care of it before people are starting to shout out names on the forum, on TS or in raid chat.
I agree with Mezzanine here. Name and shame is not the way, all it will serve to do is alienate people which will hurt the guild more than help.
The whole reason I brought in the class leaders is to identify members that need improvement and to discuss with them, either via whispers in game or via PM on the forum. Then if that person needs spec or rotation advice, we have the class forums to ask for advice in.
I bring you options....it's up to you if you use them. :flirty:
Depends what level you want to acheive, the guild was originally set up as part of the community a fun, social place to go for like minded people, meeting a happy medium between a relaxed happy place but acheiving high end goals was never going to be easy.
Also remember theres nowt wrong with a good bit of ribbing :narnar:
Personally I believe you can combine a fun, friendly guild with a disciplined raiding environment. Compare it to any team sport.
Quote from: smite;291842Also remember theres nowt wrong with a good bit of ribbing :narnar:
I'll remember that if I ever meet you. :narnar:
Very interesting reading i must say..
Jumped a few replies so i might repeat other ppls. comments, for a start, i totally agree with Garrit, ive too often been really frustrated on some of our raids, bosses that went down easily the week before become a wipefest. Honestly I do make noob mistakes sometimes, i think we all do, but generally the problem is people NOT looking at utube videos for the bossfights..Thats one primary mistake among too many people i think.
Secondly i see some, not alot but a good handfull of people or more that seriously underperform, despite their excellent gear. Solution? Well theres 2 and a half here.
1 lets be honest, at least the officers knows whos is underperforming, DONT invite them for raids. Its harsh i know but it doesnt take more than 2-3 underperformers to ruin a raid evening. DONT invite them simple as that. We have a good 30-40 people online on raid nights now, if its still not enough invite a few more good players to guild.
2 I know theres already some macro info on site, but maybe we need to elaborate to people on those macros for diffrent toons. I dunno maybe some training evenings. I got tought by a Hunter named Fragga. He spent a whole hour training my shot rotations. I myself skipped macros completely since i noticed an increase in dps, but for others they might be salvation, who knows.
And that last half i really dont want to see happening, we make a DMR elite guild. for the elite performers, maybe an option for people to swap back and forth as gear, time, RL etc. allows..point it u gotta make urself earned to stay there. Backside is it might split the guild totally hence why i dont really want this option.
Sry for my poor english btw.
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oh god space, was in guild with Fragga when he lvl'ed, he was known as the HunterTank. Don't do that, please :narnar:
Ur not the first who tells me that, :g: well it worked for me. Think the guy changed cause I was impressed by his skill in pug action and he definately boosted my dps with that training :D
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