Dead Men Walking

Quote from: BoomkinInsect Swarm   Rank 7
8% of base mana   30 yd range
Instant cast
The enemy target is swarmed by insects, decreasing their chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% and causing 1290 Nature damage over 12 sec.

Quote from: HunterScorpid Sting
11% of base mana   5 - 35 yd range
Instant cast
Requires Ranged Weapon
Stings the target, reducing chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% for 20 sec.  Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target.

Where a boss is hitting hard enough then the additional 3% miss is a huge raid boost.  For a tank to gain an additional 3% miss rate needs a massive amount of stat rating points.

3% miss is actually more than 3% less damage.  
If you assume your MT has say 55% avoidance then the the extra 3% miss reduces their chance of being hit from 45% to 42%.  That's a decrease of 7.5%.
But wait!  There's more:
Spike damage kills, Miss helps avoid & reduce spike damage.  
If an MT has a 45% chance to get hit then there is a 20.25% chance to get hit twice in a row.  
If you have debuffed the boss then the extra 3% miss rate decreases the chance of getting hit twice in a row by 13% (to 17.6% from 20.25%)
The chance of getting hit 3 times in a row with a debuffed boss is reduced from almost 19% ( from 9.1% to just 7.4%).  
This is a massive survivability gain where 2-3 hits might otherwise kill a tank.

Question 1
Should the debuff be up on bosses?

1. Assuming they hit hard enough to kill a tank in say 2-3 hits, then I would say yes.  It helps iron out those RNG spike damage situations.

However,

-I have not seen any DMR hunters using Scorpid sting
- all DMR boomkins currently use Glyph of Insect Swarm and therefore do NOT debuff the boss.

Quote from: Glyph of Insect SwarmIncreases the damage of your Insect Swarm ability by 30%, but it no longer affects your victim's chance to hit.

When a boomkin glyphs for Insect Swarm they maybe see an extra 300 damage extra per tick (not major but better than nothing).  

When a hunter stops using serpent sting they almost always lose a lot more than 300 damage per tick because of other cross-ability buffs.


Question 2:
Who should do it?


My Answers:
1. Yes.  Adding 3% miss to a boss is massive (see above).  

2. Boomkins should do it.  You need to crunch the numbers here, but unless you are in an unusually unbalanced situation then hunters generally lose a lot more dps by having to put Scorpid Sting up than a boomkin would lose by having to go without the Glyph of Insect Swarm.  Refer to EJ or any number of other sites for the theorycraft behind this.


Conclusion
So how does this affect DMR?
Current situation:
All DMR boomkins use Insect Swarm and have glyphed for Insect Swarm.
I've not seen a log where a DMR hunter uses Scorpid Sting.

So I would argue that in order to improve raid performance and assuming it is not a trivial boss (ie is hitting hard enough) then by default:

-the debuff should be provided by a boomkin (ie should remove the Glyph of Insect Swarm and replace it with something else - carry a stock of both Insect Swarm & the chosen replacement glyphs)
-where a boomkin is not available then a hunter takes over and keeps up Scorpid Sting (which hunter defined by spec and the debuff should be provided by a BM, SV, or MM hunter in that order of preference - refer to theorycraft on why).

How would you answer?

Happy to glyph out IS and take one for the team. Boomkins are also more ubiquitous in dMr.

I said no to having it up because of 2 reasons, and i was speaking to garrit about this after reading about it...


1) How many bosses do we know (in the current game excluding algalon) that can kill a tank in 2 / 3 hits? (Feel free to name some, as Garrit said Kologarn and beyond)

2) Tanks dont get hit that often enough, so reducing that chance even more is gonna make the healers drift off for when its important....

Obviously this is gonna change when ICC is implemented with the (as far as i know) - 20% dodge nerf so until that time comes i dont think its that important enough... but in hindsight it could be an excellent chance for druids / hunters to start putting it up now so that they have practise making sure its up, and refreshing etc for when ICC comes around...

Jim

My pov was that Kologarn & beyond actually makes up the majority of your current raid content.  Hit frequency, yes that is important but so is interupts & movement requirements that affect the stream of healing needed.  It's the RNG factor, how much will not having the debuff help (say 300 damage per tick) compared to a reasonably significant removal of some RNG that wipes the raid?

Quote from: Jim;2948212) Tanks dont get hit that often enough, so reducing that chance even more is gonna make the healers drift off for when its important.... i have to admit that this happens to me occasionally where i drift off and glance at my TV

I think that comment seriously disappointing Jim and not at all what I would expect from a CL.  I'm sure your fellow raiders will not be impressed to learn that you watch TV whilst they put in maximum effort.

I mentioned those bosses so as to say that there is actually a good deal of bosses that can 2/3 shot a tank indeed.

My view on it is twofold. I can see the merits of it very clearly. I'm also not very worried about healers falling asleep due to lack of healing. However if we kill Anub with only 17 seconds left on enrage and even some healers going dps in the last few seconds in order to get it done, then that 300 dmg per tick could help us in the long run. Now I know it's not the right way to improve dps but still.

Then on the other side, ICC is coming up, and you can expect tanks to get hit *a lot* more often in there due to raidwide -20% dodge debuff. In which case a -3% hit to boss if possible should be mandatory imo. So with that said, I think the conclusion is that if it's not been up so far (which I find worrying, tbh, no one needs TL to write down the numbers to realise that -3% hit on a boss is *a lot*), this should change. If nothing else then at least in order to get used to doing so for ICC.

Who then puts it up.. well all points to a druid really, given the bigger dps loss for a hunter.

From molten core days insect swarm was always a powerfull debuff. As a dps spell its not great even when glyphed. Infact it may be up for grabs if to waste a GCD for just dps

Im also thinking that a miss also gives and agro boost to the tank. Some classes this will cause a proc too so the dps loss will be made back

Simply put, if you guys agree that the -3% hit is worth it (be it now or at ICC) then the most obvious choise would be Boomkin.

Boomkins can get another glyph without disrupting their spell cycle, hunters will have to implent in into theirs. Also if hunters already loose more then the 300 per tick, then its all the more sensible that boomkins should be the one keeping it up, as their other glyph could lower the 300 tick dmg loss (I'm no expert in boomkins, but I suspect there'd be other (maybe lesser) dmg improving glyphs).

A "Quote" from my self ^^ small type errors and words were corrected or changed.

"Sith has removed the glyph for now so the hit on tank should be 3 % less, he know it should be on the tank target and on the boss in boss fights.

When it comes to debuff on target in this case a boss fight its very important to have a rotation of debuff because when *eclipse procs u need the debuff of the proc moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath. you do this to maximize damage some say its not important but i would say it is.
so u have 2 ways of doing damage as boomkin (in my view) either start with iff (improved faeri fire), insect swarm, wrath untill eclipse procs or iff, moonfire, starfire until eclipse procs.
When eclipse proc u use moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath. so hit your proc debuff like in this example insect swarm, spam wrath untill new eclipse will procs. For the most of the times a new eclipse will proc and back to starfire this you rince and repeat forming a dps cycle. so allways have the debuff up for your eclipse proc moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath.
but i tend to some time keep moonfire up atm as it gives a nice buff of 200 crit because of a relic and with my new set bonus moonfire crits nice damage.

there is a 3'rd kind of boomkin its the one who dont give a ... and just nuke without insect swarm or moonfire regardless to eclipse procs i do not know the damage much but what i tried was not even close to the damage from a boomkin with eclipse/debuff rotation."

*Eclipse: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 30%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 60% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Each effect lasts 15 sec and each has a separate 30 sec cooldown. Both effects cannot occur simultaneously.

Cheers limps thats the sort of info we need .. so its not as simple as it seems

It is not indeed. In fact I find it highly confusing :O I don't see how eclipse is related to insect swarm based on that... does the eclipse effect proc off the insect swarm/moonfire dots too?

Quote from: Azunai;294958It is not indeed. In fact I find it highly confusing :O I don't see how eclipse is related to insect swarm based on that... does the eclipse effect proc off the insect swarm/moonfire dots too?

confused too, but Eclipse (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48525) is the talent

Yeah I glyphed out Insect Swarm before last nights raid, still looking for a replacement Glyph.
Is it just co inky dink that we 1 shotted  so many bosses last night :woot2:

Limpsy is correct about 3 kinds of boomkin. The Good the Bad and the Fugly

We both have IFF which helps the whole raid hit, we have agreement that Limpsy casts this on the boss, he will then also get 3% crit bonus. IFF doesn't stack so I dont get the crit bonus in raid unless Lipmsy is dead :crying:
I could spec out of IFF, as in effect its a waste of talent points ? but take a dps loss for the team, in case Limpsy is dead or not in the raid.

If we have several major adds we spray IFF on them all.

BTW Eclipse is a useful add thats let you know your CD.

Quote from: Jim;294961confused too, but Eclipse (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48525) is the talent

I know that, Limpsy said that in his post. I don't get what it has to do with Insect Swarm though :<

Quote from: Azunai;294958It is not indeed. In fact I find it highly confusing :O I don't see how eclipse is related to insect swarm based on that... does the eclipse effect proc off the insect swarm/moonfire dots too?

here is the debuff

Improved Insect swarm: Increases your damage done by your Wrath spell to targets afflicted by your Insect Swarm by 3%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Starfire spell by 3% on targets afflicted by your Moonfire spell.

so to get most damage u want insect swarm up while eclipse for wrath is up.

plus u keep moonfire up during starfire eclipse to its side advantage it gives to your self and because of glyph, relic and dot.
you can keep insect swarm at all time if u want but my experience says you loose damage, but in some fight were u have to move u will use your debuff's on boss target while moving cuz that the only damage u do.
this is all from a dps view

bump ... for lee

just wondering why was this revived? :) Is this still question anymore?
In my opinion, if we want to apply this debuff then definitely by boomkins. Not applying Serpent Sting for a MM hunter means:
1) - 10% of Steady Shot damage (10-11% overall damage)
2) - roughly 8% of total damage from Serpent Sting portion of Chimera shot
3) - roughly 6% of total damage from Serpent Sting itself
4) - roughly 2% of total damage from giving up T10 4pc bonus that procs from Serpent Sting
In total it means losing approximately 17% of damage.

For SV it is:
1) roughly 3% of total damage from not applying Serpent Sting
2) exactly 3%  of total damage from Noxious Stings talent
3) roughly 2% of total damage from giving up T10 4pc bonus that procs from Serpent Sting

That sums up at losing approximately 8% of damage.

aru called lee too ?