I'd like to share with you a few observations - i'd like to say these are just my thoughts (and so should be ignored) but others (Paddy and Magnus) have noticed so its not just me :)
As the tactical style of play is a USP for the deadmen gaming community I'm somewhat bemused - as far as I can tell there is very little (if any) tactical play of any description on our BC2 server.
What do we(deadmen) mean by tactical/teamwork play anyway?
To me it means the following:
- highlighting threats to objectives and making calls on how they should be countered
- squads working together rather than going lone wolf
- using complimentary loadouts for the squad/side rather than just one they want to rank up on
- not following somone the length of a map to knife them (so they can rank up/get bragging rights) rather than just shoot them in the back
- working as a team rather than a set of individuals
- Sides using individual rooms in TS so the other side can't hear you
- discussing strategies for playing maps in the forum
- using the 40mm GL as much as possible... :narnar:
Not doing these things isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless we advertise ourselves as using tactics and teamwork and clearly don't. Certainly no more than most public sites. Which is why I hope this will start a healthy debate on the subject.
So some examples to back up these observations.
- While in TS - the only discussion you ever hear is when someone is having banter with someone else, usually due to a knifeing or taking the pi** etc - again I'm fine with this - but there is very little discussion on strategy before a game or tactics during a game. In fact I joined last night and there was 10 people in the game, and I heard nothing for over a minute - I thought my headphones and died.
- Deadmen team stack - again doesn't bother me but must be off putting for publics coming in when they see full squads of dmw on one side - the ones that aren't have usually been team balanced.
- People ignoring the objective - not sure why, ranking up maybe, going after a badge etc?
I've seen members go on about the dmw ethos, tactics and teamwork especially in CSS - but is that reserved for normal play or just matches?
Just to summarise I enjoy playing on the dMw server but I feel we could do a lot more to support our claim of playing tactically - it might even encourage more people to join us - I'm interested to hear your views.
:)
Some fair points Dewey, If I may...
QuoteWhile in TS - the only discussion you ever hear is when someone is having banter with someone else, usually due to a knifeing or taking the pi** etc - again I'm fine with this - but there is very little discussion on strategy before a game or tactics during a game. In fact I joined last night and there was 10 people in the game, and I heard nothing for over a minute - I thought my headphones and died.
Personally, I hear plenty of 'tactical' voicecomms when the server is busy and people start getting into the game. Perhaps the reason it's been bit more jovial recently is because the server has been so empty?
Whatever the reason, it's worth trying to use squad-comms more often than we do in an effort to promote our style of play - sometimes it's easy to forget that our public players can't hear TS.
QuoteDeadmen team stack - again doesn't bother me but must be off putting for publics coming in when they see full squads of dmw on one side - the ones that aren't have usually been team balanced.
A fair point. It's not always noticed, so we must make an effort to keep the teams feeling balanced - not just numerically.
QuotePeople ignoring the objective - not sure why, ranking up maybe, going after a badge etc?
There's always one eh? As with the comms it may be a recent side effect of the server being so sparsely populated, but feel free to politely remind players (dmw included) of what their objectives are :)
As far as the comms go my best guess would be to look at another game that we play in Left 4 Dead, while all talk is on is all quite fun & we have a laugh & a joke & tactics arn't much at all, if all talk gets turned off during the admin vs matches then it gets all alot more serious tactics become more evident. I think if you could talk to your whole team & not just your squad that'd help, obviously we have the ts server but theres no way to know which side your gonna be on when joining.
Tackled in no particular order:
Working as teams we do well. If you see people going lone wolf or not part of a squad then let an admin know, we'll chat to them.
Remember there are times when working as a squad does mean going off on your own. Splitting up and sneaking into a base to allow your team mates somewhere to spawn if you make it can work. nicking the helicopter while it's empty and jumping out over their base isn't useful. Many of these things depend on context.
Knifing is very effective. I've been at close range to someone and started shooting only to have them gun me down first when a knife would have been more effective. And if you have the element of surprise then it's usually advantageous to knife.
If you want to use team channels in team speak they're there, even public we often use them tactically though to inform people who we're spawning on and when we need a lift etc. Less so for "going A down the riverbed" etc.
If the 40mm GL takes people down, use it. You might feel its over powered/amateur, but the game is about killing people and winning objectives not using the most skill. If someone keeps killing you with a 40mm then perhaps go at them with a tank, to take them down at range.
Compared to many servers I've played on where people just run off with vehicles and it's a snipe fest I think it's a step in the right direction. In time with better tools we'll be able to control it better. I've had, however, some very fun games in squads with people like Ghost, Magnus, Paddy, Absolute Hype and others where we all play in complimentary kits with TS on and taken the game to a whole other level.
The server might not always be like that but it's what we're working towards.
However not being able to spectate, switch players and various other things makes weeding out lone wolves quickly and balancing gameplay a little difficult.
Might I suggest that we use the Friday night sessions as a test for more tactical play?
Get each team in its own TS section and really try this game properly as a clan. (either alt-tab to change channels, binding a key to do it, or setting teams before play starts, whatever)
I've played a couple of game where things have started to get tactical and really enjoyed it, especially when you get a squad working we'll together!
In fact with a bit of teamwork I've found a single squad of players can really dominate a game (Yea, I'm looking at you Tut & Greyfox and our house of everlasting doom!)
Problem with each side useing the TS channel: We need to swap after each round the channel, since the sides swap and alot forgett it or cant bother.
I don't think it would be necessary to swap everyone over every time the map changed, sure they might technically be the the room with the opposite teams name on it, and players joining the server may have to be told which room to join, but along as each team is all together I don't really see an issue.
Perhaps re-name the TS rooms Team 1 & Team 2, to avoid confusion?
Excellent ideas guys - this is the kind of debate and suggestions I was looking for - the only downside is I can't play friday but thats my tough luck :)
Judging from peoples responses to other threads in the BC2 forum I still think we as a community don't play tactically - though we like to think and say we do.
So for those who think that dMw play tactically... heres a scenario...If you where randomly dropped into a server with people who had random name tags and by observation and players actions alone you had to guess if you where on a dMw server... could you?
If so can you explain what it is that we do differently to other players?
I've played on a few servers and I know I couldnt.
Its interesting I was discussing games with Paddy at lunch, and we agreed that a game like AA2 encourages players to follow tactics due to a number of reasons:
- it takes considerably longer to get into the action in AA2 (than BC2) which is sporadic (ie you may spend 1/3 of your time travelling to the objective and getting into position before you attack en-masse)
- dying is far easier in AA2 than it in BC2 and the penalties higher (so it might take longer to get back to your objective) - you may even have just one life - in any case I assume in AA2 the disadvantages of dying are a lot more severe than in a gun and run game like BC2 or COD4 where you dead for no more than 10 secs and back into the foray
- I would imagine in AA2 that planning a strategy and employing tactics to meet that strategy is part of the fun and necessary to have any hope of completing the objective(?) Having only played AA2 for about 2 hours I'm making some presumptions here!
- And debriefs(ok lets call them chatting about it on the forum) are also part of the attraction ie where did it go wrong, how could we improve, what loadouts should we try, different approaches etc
My personal opinion is that unless you have a strong incentive to play games like BC2 tactically you simply dont' and end up hooning around with mates (which I like).
The incentive to start exploring strategys and tactics I've only evidenced from a like minded bunch of players who have something to play for ie
- playing competitively either internal or external (preferably both)
- or if a whole clans(gaming community) ethos to playing games is very regimented and tactically led ie tactical gamer (clan)
- or if your sponsored!
Looking forward to a good discussion :)
To balance the argument - I'm not saying I've never experienced moments of teamwork on the dmw server - Blunt and I had a good game a few nights back and if it wasn't for him supporting me and using teamwork we wouldn't have done half as well as we did.
QuoteIf you where randomly dropped into a server with people who had random name tags and by observation and players actions alone you had to guess if you where on a dMw server... could you?
If so can you explain what it is that we do differently to other players?
I've played on a few servers and I know I couldnt.
We don't rape the hell out of the attacking teams spawns, that's the usual thing that happens when I've been on other servers.
Unless you get the whole team on comms together I don't see any way to get properly tactical + the addition of ranks & upgrades there's always gonna be someone that doesn't give a toss what the teams meant to be doing & is gonna try for his 1000th knife kill.
I don't really see anyway to change the game, short of locking the server & having specific teams on ts.
I think that alot of the problem (apart from Hardcore not attracting players) is that in-game comms is so poor.
TS is all well and good for adminning and banter, but unless the teams are on diff channels it is hopeless to try to be tactical. Plus, the pubbies don't get to hear us.
I remember when I first played on a dMw server, the in-game comms was what made it tactical and fun. In CS:S's heyday, we got more people coming back to our servers due to the friendly and tactical comms than by anything else. we could also explain rules/bounds etc.
That is what is wrong with BC2 IMHO...we never had to use TS with BF2 and that was played tactically. same story about recruits too; in fact, Dewey and the BIG boys joined us at that time if I remember correctly.
It could be a fantastic game if it worked properly.
Yeah, In game coms is the key, Dice/EA just need to fix it, I have been using in game coms as much as poss, but im told it's really poor and they can hardly hear me :sad:
Quote from: Dewey;309081If you where randomly dropped into a server with people who had random name tags and by observation and players actions alone you had to guess if you where on a dMw server... could you?
I was about to reply to Dannage's post in the other thread (quoted below) but I guess since you ask this thread might be better.
Quote from: DannagE;309165Just going at this statement alone...with it showing as hardcore we don't seem to be getting as many people onto the server when it should be packed at peak times.
Honestly, from the couple of times I've played on the dMw server I didn't really see much - if anything - that sets it apart from the gazillion other servers, so why should people be queuing up to join the dMw server? Yes, on
some servers there's a fair amount of "baseraping". But on
most servers I've been on players respect the "no baserape" rule and quite often there's a fair bit of teamplay going on, too.
The thing is, there's just so many servers out there, and in this game I think it's very difficult to make your server stand out. Sometimes I join a server, play for 5 minutes and see the players aren't my kind of players or I'm just not having fun. So I just leave and hop on to the next server, no biggie.
Almost every time I look at the server browser the dMw server is empty or there's pitifully few people on. So again, why would I or anyone else want to join an empty server when there are so many others to choose from? I'm not affiliated with dMw in any way so I don't feel the least bit compelled to try and get a game going there. Also, the fact that the server is always on Rush mode puts me off, as that is not my preferred game mode, but we've discussed that in the other thread.
That said, I do think that if the in-game comms were of a better quality it would be easier to draw newcomers in by playing more tactically and communicating with your squad. Let's hope they fix that in a patch sometime.
Thought I'd put my peneth in...
To be honest a 'tactical game' is very much what you - and your mates - make it. I've been involved in what I considered to be very tactical games where the likes of Magnus, Dewey and Paddy and myself have all supported each other and shown direction and motivation and discussed objectives - BUT similtaniously, when I have looked around at what other people are doing in the same game it becomes clear that not everyone is likewise motivated.
We all know the situation where we (and the team we are on) have walked all over the opposition because the opposition have been tactically naive - indeed I have been on some sides where *we* have got our asses spanked because the majority of my team-mates have had about as much tactical awareness as a headless chicken!
My take on this is that as long as those most immediate to me in the game - usually squad mates - are taking it seriously and working as a team, whether we win or lose I enjoy myself when we *try* to make a plan come together (I just ignore all the other numpties.)
I don't think you will ever get a game server where *everyone* has the same level of commitment (other than a competition server) - in fact I have known myself sometimes just not been in the mood myself and I did some pratting about to amuse myself, and there have been some occassions where I have just been 'experimenting', but I try to do this when I am online on my own and not with team mates lest I p*** them off.
I guess my point is this ---- as long as those mates around me are playing tactically that's all that matters to me. You can't have any control over other peoples attitudes, goals or maturity. You just have to try and blank out those who play like prats..........And stab them a lot! ;)
My only one big rule (if you can call it that) about tactical play is TALK A LOT - I *over talk* when in mission, so my squad mates have as much info as possible. I find nothing worse than playing with someone - no matter what their personal skill level - that does not communicate.
....Sorry if I missed the point of this thread, was just airing some thoughts.
:)
Chin chin chaps,
Ranger
great stuff Ranger.. Nice to see you alive and well.
NF