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Dead Men Walking

dMw Chit Chat => The Beer Bar => Seriously though ... => Topic started by: SLoWHaND on October 09, 2003, 12:58:18 PM

Title: webpage makers.
Post by: SLoWHaND on October 09, 2003, 12:58:18 PM
Lo fellas.
Could you point me at any webpage making progs that would be usefull to a novice............... errm thats me actually.

Many years ago Adobe Pagemill 3 was my saviour.

Remember the key word here is          NOVICE.


SLoWHaND
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Dr Sadako on October 09, 2003, 01:10:16 PM
Macromedia Dreamweaver is easy to get used to.

//www.macromedia.com
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: TeaLeaf on October 09, 2003, 02:04:00 PM
I have used CoffeeCup HTML Editor (http://www.coffeecup.com/) for years and been real happy with it.  It has more than enough 'novice' in it to allow me to do really cool things :D  There is a trial download shown on the website.....

TL.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Doorman on October 09, 2003, 04:33:07 PM
If you can wait till the lan I have Dreamweaver 4.1 you can have. The proffessional choice!
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: TeaLeaf on October 09, 2003, 05:40:48 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman@Oct 9 2003, 04:33 PM
The proffessional choice!
Can I quote you on this?  ;)

TL.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: SLoWHaND on October 09, 2003, 05:52:09 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman@Oct 9 2003, 04:33 PM
If you can wait till the lan I have Dreamweaver 4.1 you can have. The proffessional choice!
I have a copy of dreamweaver and some other bits and bobs winging its way to me as we speak.
Many thanx everyone.

All I need now is for someone to say do this do that arggh I wouldnt have done that.
Oh yeah a tutor thats what they are called.

Cheers fellas.

SLoWHaND
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2003, 06:37:40 PM
I would not recommend Dreamweaver to a "Novice". If you want simple then frontpage or netobjects fusion are more simplistic. Dreamweaver is very powerful but can be quite daunting.

People laugh at frontpage but to be honest it is an excellent program for a novice. Once you get comfortable I would strongly recommend Dreamweaver as it as (to misquote Ron) the "Professional Choice" :)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Doorman on October 09, 2003, 07:35:10 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Oct 9 2003, 06:37 PM
I would not recommend Dreamweaver to a "Novice". If you want simple then frontpage or netobjects fusion are more simplistic. Dreamweaver is very powerful but can be quite daunting.

People laugh at frontpage but to be honest it is an excellent program for a novice. Once you get comfortable I would strongly recommend Dreamweaver as it as (to misquote Ron) the "Professional Choice" :)
So I put an extra 's' in.  :rolleyes:  The way I see it, and I'm a novice too, is that it's easy to do easy things with but you have the wherewithall to progress. You won't outgrow DW
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 09, 2003, 07:48:12 PM
Ahem, the program of choice for the REAL professional is of course Notepad. 8)

Although it's clearly not for the novice.  

Dreamweaver is fine for creating web pages as long as you don't actually want to do any real coding yourself, but prefer to leave to a bit of software. To be able to really build web pages you have to know how to code html.  WYSIWYG editors can speed up the process but I doubt any real professional couldn't revert to notepad if they really had too.

Seriously though, if you really want to crack web design then at least learn the basics of html. (Of course if you simply want to bung up a quick page or two then send me a fiver and I'll do it for ya  ;)  )

Your route could be - first notepad, second 1st Page2000 (free) or Coffee Cup or Netfusion, third Dreamweaver or Adobe GoLive or Hotdog Pro.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: OldBloke on October 09, 2003, 08:10:07 PM
Notepad >>> Homesite >>> DW

I'd recommend DW even for a novice. Get to grips with the GUI and you've cracked it.

Frontpage is easy to pick up but the code it produces is  ... interesting. <_<
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Gandalf on October 09, 2003, 08:14:54 PM
I use aceHTML pro from visicom media (http://www.visicommedia.com/)

They do a free version, but it is a text based editor (although there are lots of shortcuts to make lie easier) so you do need to know how to read html.

All the sites I code are done with this program.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2003, 08:23:40 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Oct 9 2003, 08:10 PM
Frontpage is easy to pick up but the code it produces is  ... interesting. <_<
That was polite. Are there lawyers watching?
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: DogMeat on October 09, 2003, 08:24:05 PM
Frontpage is utter shite.  The bloated "code" it produces is also utter shite.  Ergo, any web pages you produce with it will be chock-full-o-shitey-badness.

I did use something called 1st Page 2000 which, as I recall was pretty damn good for a freeb.  Google it, I'm sure you'll find it..

DM
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2003, 08:25:17 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by smilodon@Oct 9 2003, 07:48 PM
Ahem, the program of choice for the REAL professional is of course Notepad. 8)
Yup, I do all my graphics in it too :)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Doorman on October 09, 2003, 08:35:27 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Gandalf-LordOfJelly@Oct 9 2003, 08:14 PM
I use aceHTML pro from visicom media (http://www.visicommedia.com/)

 so you do need to know how to read html.

 
Hardly novice then.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Gandalf on October 09, 2003, 09:15:08 PM
true, but after you've cut your teeth on wysiwydg (usually ;)) then it's the only way to go.

html isn't hard, if I can do it anyone can.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 09, 2003, 10:04:09 PM
So following Doggers decision not to mince words....WYSIWYG editors are basically crap to varying degrees. They interpret your commands into html and you have to settle for what they produce. Invariably they don't do a fantastic job of it. Frontpage is a disgrace and Dreamweaver is adequate at best.

I don't believe there is a serious professional designer who doesn't go line by line through WYSIWYG created html before they ever consider publishing it.

Dreamweaver etc. can produce OK code, that may be browser independent and just might be standards compliant at a push. If you are creating a simple home page then these apps alone may hack it. If you want to do quality work where you control exactly what you are creating down to the pixel then text editors, or text editors used with WYSIWYG editors are a must.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Doorman on October 09, 2003, 11:05:39 PM
:rolleyes:
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: TeaLeaf on October 09, 2003, 11:16:00 PM
As I said, CoffeeCup is WYSIWYG, but also has a load of real simple tools to help you along.  I am not a web designer, I like basic web design software, I like CoffeeCup. :)

TL.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2003, 01:33:43 PM
..and I would remind everyone that what was requested is something that will work for a novice lest we lose track of the requirement  ;)

I accept all the points about "real men don't eat quiche"  :)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 10, 2003, 09:54:59 PM
I take your point, but do you want to stay a novice?

If you do then there's lots of advice above as to what software to choose. If you want to move on from novice to competent then I still maintain you need to use a text editor or at least a text editor in conjunction with a WYSIWYG program
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Doorman on October 10, 2003, 10:41:30 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by smilodon@Oct 10 2003, 09:54 PM
I take your point, but do you want to stay a novice?

If you do then there's lots of advice above as to what software to choose. If you want to move on from novice to competent then I still maintain you need to use a text editor or at least a text editor in conjunction with a WYSIWYG program
I can feel the 'incoming' already, but isn't that like saying "It's better to light a fire by rubbing two sticks together than switching on the gas"
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: TeaLeaf on October 11, 2003, 08:38:39 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by BlueBall@Oct 10 2003, 01:33 PM
..and I would remind everyone that what was requested is something that will work for a novice lest we lose track of the requirement ;)

I accept all the points about "real men don't eat quiche" :)
BB - you can try CoffeeCup at the LAN - it is aimed at novice but also allows you to switch to full-on geek mode when you want to do so.

TL.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 11, 2003, 12:57:10 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Doorman+Oct 10 2003, 10:41 PM-->
QUOTE (Doorman @ Oct 10 2003, 10:41 PM)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Gandalf on October 11, 2003, 01:29:25 PM
Exactly right. Once you've got your site up with a wysiwyg editor you can then start to play with a text based editor.

It's not as difficult as it sounds. The one I use for example has lots of shortcuts so you can add a quick table by telling it how many rows and columns you want. Adding images is also as simple as clicking the add image button and then browsing to your image using an explorer box.

Also clicking on a tag makes the left menu list all of the various attributes and options for that tag so adding attributes is easy. It also has a very good code interrogator/validator. It will tell you if anything is wrong with your code by clicking this option. You can then click on the error in the error window and your cursor in the main page will jump to the offending piece. Helps on those big pages.

The key to a good website is not its look, it's how well you can navigate. Menu design is everything. If your just after a few pages, then you'll have nothing to worry about.

The simplest way is to use tables. You can create most designs by using tables alone, and if you are previewing the design in a browser and it looks 'odd' just give the table a border so you can see all of the lines and that will usually tell you where you're going wrong :)

But that is my opinion. I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist (all of my code needs to look just right, even though it displays the same the indenting and attributes need to be perfect!) and unfortunatly the code from a wysiwyg editor is just not what I like.

Still, I started out with MS FP95 and worked with that for a while. I then found aceHTML (was version 2 then I think) and started to use that. What I'd do was layout the page in FP and then open it up into ace and edit the code so it wasn't so bloaty. Thus learning html in the process. I continued doing this for a year or so, then I just used ace exclusively and just used FP to upload the site to the webspace.

Then Stryker showed me the joys of Linux and Apache and I now use aceHTML and aceFTP for everything :)

I got where I am today by using wysiwyg courtesy of FP, but do not blinker yourself with these as they are not the best way to go. Learn, advance, and when you finally code your site yourself you can sit back and feel good.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smite on October 11, 2003, 01:53:27 PM
It was slowhand who first asked the question.

While you all have points on what to do/use please remember that not all of us work with PC's all day and we only take it on as a hobby.
A lot of what you are saying is above my head and what we dont want is to put someone off by debating how it is best done..

Remember the question was:-
QuoteLo fellas.
Could you point me at any webpage making progs that would be usefull to a novice............... errm thats me actually.

Remember the key word here is NOVICE.


SLoWHaND

Not a dig its just that you are starting too get a little advanced

Were not all as clever as you lot  :D  :D
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 11, 2003, 03:00:50 PM
Perhapse the question needs a little clarification ?

A novice that wants to do what ? Knock up a quick web site or learn how to code html site?

There's good suggestions for both in this thread  :)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: SLoWHaND on October 11, 2003, 03:09:22 PM
Well.............
All this NOVICE wanted to do was make  simple web pages.
Something to display piccies on rather than bloat out the forum with graphics.
Maybe something in the way of a slideshow setup.

SLoWHaND
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 11, 2003, 03:25:20 PM
PM replied to  :)

Something like THIS? (http://www.express-soft.com/etc/samples/airplanes/)

Full web site



HERE (http://www.express-soft.com/etc/)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Dr Sadako on October 11, 2003, 03:25:45 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by SLoWHaND@Oct 11 2003, 04:09 PM
Well.............
All this NOVICE wanted to do was make  simple web pages.
Something to display piccies on rather than bloat out the forum with graphics.
Maybe something in the way of a slideshow setup.

SLoWHaND
Then I recommend a program called iView Media. In this program you can organize images in a database style but also make slideshows in HTML by just selecting the images.

This can also be done from within Photoshop.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: OldBloke on October 11, 2003, 04:12:27 PM
The very first 'Teach yourself HTML' book I ever read said ...

QuoteRemember this. HTML *advises* your browser how to display the page

Code for IE. Test with IE. Publish for IE. Over 80% of your customers will be able to see your site as you intended. Sod the rest.  :narnar:
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: smilodon on October 11, 2003, 05:11:15 PM
:lmfao:
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: DogMeat on October 12, 2003, 08:44:26 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by OldBloke@Oct 11 2003, 04:12 PM
The very first 'Teach yourself HTML' book I ever read said ...

QuoteRemember this. HTML *advises* your browser how to display the page

Code for IE. Test with IE. Publish for IE. Over 80% of your customers will be able to see your site as you intended. Sod the rest.  :narnar: [/b]
That reads so much better when you substitute "IE"  with "crayon". :whistle:
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2003, 06:34:49 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf+Oct 11 2003, 08:38 AM-->
QUOTE (TeaLeaf @ Oct 11 2003, 08:38 AM)
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: TeaLeaf on October 12, 2003, 06:48:35 PM
:blink: wrong respondent..... :oops:  

/me blushes...... :frusty:

TL.
Title: webpage makers.
Post by: SLoWHaND on October 12, 2003, 07:32:29 PM
Wouldnt be sooooooooooooooooo bad but
......
......
......

I dont like coffee  :rolleyes:

thanx for all the info, the fog is clearing.


SLoWHaND   <<<<<<<<<   The NoViCe
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