Dead Men Walking

wowwiki:Cho'gall (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cho%27gall_%28tactics%29)
[video=youtube;eWHNzND_wY8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWHNzND_wY8&feature=player_embedded[/video]

QuoteOriginally Posted by Aliena                                          Hello and welcome to the TankSpot Bastion of  Twilight Raid Guide! My name is Aliena, and in this video I'll show you  all you have to know about Cho'gall, the fourth encounter in this new  raid instance. We completed this fight with 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5  DPS, but similar raid configurations may work just as well.

10-man Cho'gall has 33.5 million health and is a two-phase encounter.  While he has an intimidating number of abilities, the fight is actually  fairly straightforward. The entire fight is based around a Corrupted  Blood Mechanic that works similarly to Atramedes' sound bar. At the  start of the fight, a Corrupted Blood meter will pop up in your UI, and  getting hit by any of Cho'gall's or his minions' abilities will increase  your corruption.

Depending on how much Corrupted Blood you accumulate, different things  will happen. At 25 stacks, you get a magic debuff that greatly  accellerates your stack gain. This can and needs to be dispelled. At 50  stacks, you periodically get a debuff called Sickness, that'll make you  vomit onto any raid member in a 5 yard cone in front of you. At 75  stacks, you grow a tentacle that will cast Shadow Bolts at your raid  members. At 100 stacks, you're immune to any healing but will deal 100%  more damage.

The goal in the normal encounter is to keep your stacks as low as  possible throughout the whole fight. When you trigger phase 2 at 25%,  Cho'gall will activate a spell called "Corruption of the Old God", which  deals shadow damage to every raid member every 2 seconds until he dies.  This spell will deal more damage the more stacks of Corrupted Blood you  have, and each tick of it will cause you to gain 1 stack of Corrupted  Blood.

As you can see, phase 1 is all about keeping the fight controlled and  avoiding as many of Cho'galls abilities as possible, whereas phase 2 is a  burn phase, a race against Corrupted Blood stacks.

Let's go over Cho'gall's phase 1 abilities. As soon as you engage him,  he'll switch into a stance called Flame's Orders. Cho'gall will switch  between this stance and another stance called Shadow's Orders throughout  the entire phase 1. While in Flame's Orders, Cho'gall's melee hits will  deal an extra 20,000 damage and he'll spawn little fire puddles all  over the room. Fire is bad news, don't bathe in it. Make sure your  Cho'gall tank receives a lot of healing during Flame's Orders.

Shadow's Orders will cause Cho'gall to omit 3 pulses of a Shadow AoE  spell. This seems to hit harder the more stacks of Corruption people  accumulate and your healers need to be prepared for it. He'll switch  stances approximately every 20 seconds.

The reason you need two tanks for this fight is Fury of Cho'gall - this  is cast on his main threat target, deals 60k damage and greatly  increases shadow and physical damage taken for 45 seconds, so when a  tank is afflicted by Fury, the other tank should taunt off of him fairly  quickly to minimize the chances of tank deaths.

The next ability you need to watch out for is Worship - this will mind  control 2 random raid members. Worship can be interrupted by any stun,  scatter, silence or fear effect and the sooner you do so, the better.  While your raid members are mind controlled, Cho'gall will stack up a  damage buff called Twisted Devotion. Each stack gives him 10% increased  damage, and this stacks up to 20. To counter this, we had everyone stack  up on Cho'gall for most of the phase, so everyone could be interrupted  quickly by abilities such as Shockwave, Scatter Shot, Psychic Scream and  many more.

The only exception to the stacking up is whenever Cho'gall summons a  Corrupting Adherant. This happens approximately once per minute, and as  soon as the add spawns, your raid should spread out to avoid getting hit  by the add's Corrupting Crash ability. Corrupting Crash looks like a  little shadowy swirl on the ground, and a few seconds after the swirl  appears, a missile will hit its center. If anyone is still in it by the  time the missile hits, they'll take damage and increase their corruption  stacks by 10.

Make sure that all your DPS switch over to kill an Adherant as soon as a  tank has it secured. If you're the tank, make sure to face adherants  away from your raid members. If you play a class with an interrupt, make  sure to interrupt their Depravity ability, which is a raid wide shadow  AoE with a 1.5second cast time. The adds NEED to be killed as soon as  possible. If an add is still up by the time Cho'gall casts Fester Blood -  which happens 40 seconds after an Adherant spawns -  the add will gain a  Shadow AoE ability that will pretty much wipe your raid.

Of course, those aren't the only gimmicks the Adherants have. Upon their  death, they'll spawn a black puddle on the ground that won't disappear  until you hit phase 2. Standing in a puddle will deal damage and  increase your Corruption, but even worse is that everytime Cho'gall  casts Fester Blood, 5 little slimes will spawn from each black puddle.  Yes, each. That means if you've killed 4 adherants, you will have 20  slimes coming to eat your brains.

Of course, getting hit by the slimes will increase your Corruption too,  so you want to avoid that. We dealt with this by killing all Adherants  next to each other at the entrance to the room, so the slimes would all  spawn in the same general area and had to travel a long way to get to  us. Applying a frost trap or slowing them down through other means is  also almost essential. On the first two slime spawns your ranged DPS  will likely be able to take the slimes down by themselves, but on later  waves melee DPS might have to help them out with Fan of Knives spam or  other AoE abilities.

Controlling adherants and slimes is key to this phase, and if you manage  to take them all down in a timely manner and without increasing  corruption stacks by much, you're well on your way to defeating this  encounter.

When Cho'gall's health hits 25%, you'll trigger phase 2. Any bloodlust  or time warp effect should be saved for this phase. He loses most of his  old abilities but he does retain Fury of Cho'gall, so your tanks need  to keep taunting off of each other whenever that happens.

As mentioned before, he'll activate Corruption of the Old God, which  will increase your Corruption stacks by 1 every 2 seconds and deal  increasing damage. This is unavoidable, and each raid member needs to  keep a close eye on their stacks. Any raid member hitting 25 stacks  NEEDS to be dispelled as soon as possible, and any raid member closing  in on 50 stacks needs to face away from anyone else to avoid vomitting  on them.

Of course, since you'll take increasing shadow damage, this also acts as  a soft enrage timer. Eventually, your healers just won't be able to  keep up. Additionally, as soon as you hit phase 2 and every 30 seconds  afterward, Cho'gall will summon 4 tentacles called Darkened Creations.  These will channel a beam on random targets that reduces damage and  healing done by 75%, deals damage and increases Corruption, so they need  to be killed immediately.

To quickly wipe them out, designate a DPS leader and have all other DPS  assist him on his target. When the tentacles are down, DPS can attack  Cho'gall again. This cycle will repeat until Cho'gall dies. Make sure  that no one vomits on any raid member, and if you have sufficient DPS  and healing and keep controlling the fight, Cho'gall should go down.  I've attached footage of the whole encounter in case you'd like to see  how we dealt with the various mechanics in detail.  Good luck and have  fun!

Bump to prep for this.

...and again, he's up this week.

Tuesday is a whole night of Cho'gall.  Be prepared!

Quote from: TeaLeaf;321022Tuesday is a whole night of Cho'gall.  Be prepared!

I lolled. This guy will go down... in less than 12 tries. Guess we are doing Al'akir after.

13 tries. No win.

Damage taken by spell:

1.Melee 40.5% Lowered by quick interrupts.

2.Unleashed Shadows 35.6% AoE Shadow damage, unavoidable (Shadows Orders)

3.Flaming Destruction    7.7% Extra Flame damage to tanks, unavoidable (Flame orders)

4.Depravity 2.6% Adherent casts this. MUST be interrupted, or more corrupted blood on targets.
We got hit 171 times through 13 attempts by this. Was Add-tank or Noreia on interrupts?

5.Corrupting Crash 2.6% Move from shadow crash, or get more corrupted blood on you.
Note to self, and others. Dont finish casts.. just run! The crash site is bigger than it looks.

6.Shadow Bolt 2.1% This is when you get 75 stacks of corrupted blood, you start pew pew Shadow bolting other players.

7.Blaze    2.0% Annoying flame puddles. Move out. Or move into if wipe is called. :-)

11.Corruption: Sickness 0.6% This is the vomiting. Doing this on other players, makes them stack up more corrupted blood

12.Spilled Blood of the Old God 0.4% Puddles from the Adherents. Dont move into these.

As you can see, the bolded ones are those that add up on our Corrupted blood. We can all do our part to avoid it.

Btw TL, i think the interrupting was greater in the later tries, but using Psychic Scream is a bit meh, because it makes 2-3 people flee for 8 seconds if not dispelled. And during add phase, this can be pretty anoying. Rdps and healers fleeing while they should be taking care of adds.

This is from a successful attempt on Choggy 10M Normal. Some nice random EU guild
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nr8e7dsefr6ypwxe/?s=2532&e=2834
Damage taken from Depravity = 0

Quote from: Slush;32121711.Corruption: Sickness 0.6% This is the vomiting. Doing this on other players, makes them stack up more corrupted blood

 
These are because we did too bad on Depravity and Corrupted Crash.

Quote from: Slush;321217Btw TL, i think the interrupting was greater in the later tries, but using Psychic Scream is a bit meh, because it makes 2-3 people flee for 8 seconds if not dispelled. And during add phase, this can be pretty anoying. Rdps and healers fleeing while they should be taking care of adds.

I agree, but the point I would make is that the fact you were being feared means you were still MC'd and nobody had broken it, hence me blowing fear.  I'd like to avoid using it because I then had to dispell it and that costs mana which I felt the effect of later in the fight.

Not had a chance to go through the logs myself yet, hoping for some time tonight, but nice work so far Slush, thank you.  Looking forward to seeing what other people come up with.

Problems:
We suck at adds.
Add damage really was poor and led to a lot of corrupted blood and people being too spread out when a Worship hit, leading to long periods of being MC'd and a lot of increased damage stacks on Cho'gall who then humps are MT hard and our healers go oom (how's that for a chain of events).
Worship
The MCs are not reliably broken and we need to ensure that this is fixed.  Go check your class abilities and whether or not they work on the MC in the Cho'gall fight.  Shadowfury, Dragonbreath, Psychic Scream, Wind Shear, Strangulate, Psychic Horror, Avengers Shield, Typhoon, Solar Beam, and Mind Freeze all break the MC, is one of these abilities yours?
Corrupting Crash
Way too much damage.  Avoid it.


Ideas:
Adds:
ALL dps on the adds!  Yep, melee dps can help out too, especially as you are stood where they spawn after kiting the adherent there - they aggro healers first so as long as you rotate your primary target you should not get aggro.
Frost mage with slowing blizzard and (super) frost novas are a win in P1 on adds.  Apparently a single frost mage can pretty much solo the adds for the first couple of waves.  Even nova from a non-frost spec helps a lot - remember they aggro healers not you.
Warlocks - Glyph of Shadwoflame (http://www.wowhead.com/item=45783)
Frost DK (not that we have one) -  Chillblains for the 50% slow and Howling Blast
Boomkin (ditto) - solar beam
2 heal it!
I know Jas said 'no way' last night, but reading around it should be doable and I see many raids running 2 healers and bringing one more dps.  This would really help, especially in P2 when it is a DPS race.

QuoteIf you are getting the worships fast and people are dodging crashes the only big source of damage is shadow phase aoe that can be slowly healed up over a long time. There is very little damage when the fight is done correctly.

P2
Tank boss right up close to a wall, this forces the tentacles to spawn in a semi-circle around him and close to melee, thus improving the speed with which these can be killed.
P2 Transition
Big adds despawn as you go into P2, so if we're knocking on the 25% door with a big add about to spawn just keep dps on the boss and ignore big add.

Been doing some log reading:

Adherent DPS:
This is FAR too inconsistent.  We had some people do less damage on the adherent than the tank which has to mean they are not following it properly and dpsing when they should.  Remember, if the adds go down promptly (in the right place) then we get more time to group again for Worships and are in the right spot for Fester Blood adds.   The dps ranged from 10.1m for the night all the way down to 5.9m (tank did 7m damage on the adherent) and this is too big a spread, we need all the dps doing more damage than the tank.

Interrupts
We need to consider alternative interrupts on Adherent.  Noreia reported Wind Shear as seeming intermittent despite it being cast and in range.

Fire!
Don't stand in fire.  Both tanks need to watch this!

Shadow Crash
Area of effect is bigger than the animation.  As soon as you see one coming, stop casting immediately and run well out of range.  Healers in particular got hit a lot by this.

Add Humping
Healers & ranged need to watch out and move away if an add starts humping your leg.  Tanks, that applies too, move back to give dps more time if you have to.

QuoteInterrupts
We need to consider alternative interrupts on Adherent. Noreia reported Wind Shear as seeming intermittent despite it being cast and in range.

I had no problems with the interrupts, i have a 10 second cooldown on mine and the add does his cast every 10 seconds.
 
I only missed a few because i was mind controlled for the rest i had them all in time.
 
 
 
Only skullbash works as an interrupt btw for a feral druid, my second interrupt didn't work on the big adds.

To me, the main problems that are holding us back are 2.

-Corrupted Blood: We still have people getting too high too soon, it was quite usual to have someone at 70-80 or even 100% when the boss was still halfway down. That means that these people will not be able to get any healing, and even if they will do double dmg, they will dmg the other members of the raid, increasing their Corrupted Blood level, creating a domino effect.

-Adds Management: It was difficoult for the dps to get the ads down in some situations becouse they were spread, and thus some of them survived the AoE and had to be killed one per time. We will have too many adds to kill them one by one, and as said during the raid we all MUST help the dps getting this job done. However, i reckon that there are factors related to the previous point that may force us to address that one first, such as the vomit, and the dmg done to the surrounding players. One last note about this: when you have an add on you, try to get back to the boss and to keep them in the same group, it will help the dps peeling it off you; remember that the fire DOES NOT increase the amount of corrupted blood you have (i've tested this tonight to be 100% sure) and its dmg can be healed through if it cannot be avoided, so if there's a wall of fire in front of you and to avoid it you have to go all around the room with an add on your back, just run through it and try to take less dmg you can while doing it (aka don't take too much to pass through it, use your speed buff if you have any, and so on).

All the rest is marginal, however i'd like you to have someone who will be able to get out of the worship mind control the adds tank's healer. I don't know why, but often i was caught all the way back with hal and had to endure most of it, getting released in the middle of the adds.

Corrupted Blood
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fmm0omx6hp2opknt/spell/81701/
To allow a full comparison, you can multiply Jas' numbers by 6 as he was only in for one try and add 20% to Tirk's numbers as he was in for 5 tries not 6, then the list is comparable.

Corrupting Crash
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fmm0omx6hp2opknt/spell/81689/
Stop casting, get out of the area.  You get about 3 seconds warning so move out!  I'm embarrassed that I was standing in 1.5 crashes per try, I'll do better.

Standing in Fire
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fmm0omx6hp2opknt/spell/81538/?enc=wipes&boss=43324
Remember that 'Ready to Raid' achievement?  Fire is a basic one, we should not be standing in it!  You'll always get 'some' damage as it is instant cast, but there's no excuse for remaining in it - you just need to move out immediately it spawns under your feet.

Missed Interrupts
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fmm0omx6hp2opknt/spell/81713/
Depravity was a lot better handled, but we're still missing a few as mentioned.  

Question:  Can the OT handle interrupts on his own, allowing a melee to remain on boss all the time?

DPS is too low
This is a major problem imo.

Bottom line is that most people kill in 8 minutes and our best was a 27% wipe at 9 minutes.  Our dps numbers are simply not good enough, no excuses.  We're having to spend too much time on big adds, so losing dps time on boss, spending too much time on little adds, so losing dps time on boss, and also not doing enough dps period.  Our numbers are too low and we need more.

To analyse dps start here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fmm0omx6hp2opknt/sum/damageDone/?s=7571&e=8011
This is Try 1 of Cho'gall from last night.
First:  uncheck Total DPS from column on left.
Then: check any players you want to compare.
What do you see: a time line of the DPS done during Try 1.  Look at the differences and think about why.
To look at any other try, mouseover 'Cho'gall 10N Try 1 (7:20)' along the bar at top of chart, Wipes-->Cho'gall-->select any of the tries from last night and repeat above.

Look at where you personally were doing less DPS than others and figure out why.  Yes there will be some short-term issues, but the graphs show some major differences which should not exist.

Is melee a problem?
No.  Here's a kill from a guild using only 2 ranged, so melee are not a problem.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/inf2xym58lfzklp8/sum/damageDone/?s=10197&e=10763

Thinking some more, but the summary for me at the moment is we are not performing at the required level in terms of DPS and we're failing real hard at some basic stuff like avoiding damage.

Its like you say, TL. Dps is too low. Bring in another. Give this.... 10 tries on Tuesday, please.

Meaning:
2 tanks (pala/pala or pala/dk)
1-2 melee (OT and 2 melee needs to handle Adherent interrupts every time and dps him down at the appropriate location).
4-5 ranged (all ranged on small adds and on boss. No ranged needs to big on big Adherent).
2 healers (1 MT healer + 1raid+OT healer)

Just 10 tries.
If it doesnt work out, well... I was wrong :-D

I'm pondering on the same tbh.  

The flip side of the coin is that if we perform at the right dps level (as we can & should) then we do not have to push healers to the limit to cover up for our weakness.  

It's not just a time loss due to time spent on the adds.  It's about individuals performing as they can and should with their gear levels.  We need that performance, we're into the end game now and the final 3 bosses, none will be easy or possible at all if we cannot produce high levels of dps consistently.

Well, in this case:
With one more dps'er, they dont have to push themselves over the edge. They might have a little ... slack to watch where they are standing, to move, to group and to learn the encounter. This will ultimately be how we win this. Not on uberdps, but on the technical part. When that is won, this boss will go down with 3 healers aswell.

But, this might be too tough on the healers, i know. :-)

If you think bringing a frost DK with chillblanes (slow), hungering cold (root) and HoW with DnD (aoe) will help on the adds, then by all means consider bringing me as a dps on that fight.

Quote from: Twisted;321443If you think bringing a frost DK with chillblanes (slow), hungering cold (root) and HoW with DnD (aoe) will help on the adds, then by all means consider bringing me as a dps on that fight.

What sort of dps levels are you bringing though?  Probably best to jump into a heroic with a couple of the officers so we can get an idea of what the options are.  DKs are certainly good at the AOE, but we have other considerations too, not least of which is the melee who are geared for it and normally doing it!

Quote from: TeaLeaf;321453What sort of dps levels are you bringing though?  Probably best to jump into a heroic with a couple of the officers so we can get an idea of what the options are.  DKs are certainly good at the AOE, but we have other considerations too, not least of which is the melee who are geared for it and normally doing it!

A good question. On my skada meters, I just pulled 13k across the whole of BRC, averaging 10.5k on the boss fights. We cleared all bosses. That was in a pug though, so the Luck Of the Draw buff applied. It should also be noted that the chillblains talent is only taken in PvP specs as is a talent to reduce my 2nd interupt CD down to a minute. Also, I only have 5 epics in my DPS equipment which also plays a factor, so I would also expect to have the lowest DPS of the DPS section. I don't expect to DPS on this boss, just bringing the option of a Frost DK to the table if the raid requires the utility :)

Aside:
This is what worries me at the moment for this boss.

Damage 'on Chogall' from ALL wipes last night was:

27.0m/1.96m/1.82m/32m - Teaell
10.6m/5.20m/6.65m/27m - Tanales
14.0m/0.08m/7.40m/22m - OT
10.8m/4.00m/6.18m/21.5m - Maldaror
13.0m/1.82m/5.28m/21.2m - Switchback
13.0m/1.86m/5.18m/20m - Grimnar
16.0m/0.80m/0.00m/18m - MT

The figures are:

Damage_on_Chogall/Damage_on_little_adds/Damage_on_Adherent/Total_damage_on_all_targets

The variance is huge.

This means people are spending a huge chunk of time processing what they think they should be doing in terms of movement, rather than actually using their brain power to handle their dps rotations.   Keep in mind I covered almost every MC with a possible fear if I saw Mal was MC'd at the back and then dispelled the feared, so at every MC I was stopping dps to cover the raid MC for up to 5 seconds. That just makes the differences worse.

Running around accounts for some of it but not the extent of the variation. Some of the differences was where for the last few wipes I focued on boss until wave 3 of small adds, but then how did I also do the same dps on the small adds as some people who were doing it for the previous 2 waves as well!

Some of the dps difference was down to me not really bothering with the Adherent as it was going down quickly enough. We have to move far enough out of position to dps the adherent that I think we are losing dps now due to range and then creating potential MC issues for ourselves by being spread out.

Perhaps the right move is to kill it closer (yes, sounds controversial) but then keep the group together and enforce harder adds dps and better slowing. Moving Hal 60 yards off mean all the ranged have to move, Tirk has to follow and then we all run back to group up again (assuming we're not feared in the mean time). So maybe keeping Hal in range of the main group is the better way forward, so ranged just need to turn and not to chase. Still thinking on this one as there are downsides too.

What am I missing re the dps as the numbers are a concern.  Hopefully I'm missing something that is bloody obvious, but I cannot see it at the moment and that's frustrating. :frusty:

QuotePerhaps the right move is to kill it closer (yes, sounds controversial)  but then keep the group together and enforce harder adds dps and better  slowing. Moving Hal 60 yards off mean all the ranged have to move, Tirk  has to follow and then we all run back to group up again (assuming we're  not feared in the mean time). So maybe keeping Hal in range of the main  group is the better way forward, so ranged just need to turn and not to  chase. Still thinking on this one as there are downsides too.

Thats a big one for healing too as the spread we do makes control of the MC slower (boss hits harder) and screws aoe healing  ..... They should be put down right on our casting limit. If they get too close it's no problemo for the MT and casters to move back for those extra needed yards and it will keep em all heading in the right direction

2p spent

Can anyone explain me what's that Unleashed Shadows that's doing so much damage to the raid? I didn't find it on wowwiki/wowhead/tankspot.

We need to get "Tricks of the Trade" on the tank when the small adds spawn (every time they spawn).  It would make a huge difference as the adds would all head for the tank and everyone else can concentrate on dps (and the rogue wouldn't die as much).  Looking at the logs it was only used once in all of the attempts on Cho'Gall tonight.  I'd suggest creating a macro to save time.


and for Tirkad: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93220 (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93220)

Quote from: Tirkad;321581Can anyone explain me what's that Unleashed Shadows that's doing so much damage to the raid? I didn't find it on wowwiki/wowhead/tankspot.

Its the Aoe damage he does that ticks 3 times after he gets a swirly blue/purple ring around his legs in the Shdow Orders phase.
Unavoidable, but im always putting down healing rain before... and doing chain heals when he gets the ring/when it ticks.

This at the same time as small adds doing damage to melee is what caused Myth a couple of deaths.
Small adds and Unleashed Shadows separate is easy though.

Lol.
Debilitating Beam (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93132)
This is what the tentacles do. Muahahaha. Lucky for us, we will get better at interrupting next time.
Here is who took most ticks from it.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wz5dndzjw7xdxsum/spell/82411/

The way to deal with this, is that the off-tank needs to pick up as much aggro from these as possible. This is what hal did great yesterday, but we are very spread out.
In addition.. they need to be interrupted aswell (?). These must never lol-lazerbeam on healers. In the back, I had 2 beams on me. They hurt.

Tbh, we dont need to be that spread out, healers(me atleast) are doing dispellduty on the vomitting ones pwetty quick.
And in the good couple last good tries, I was ok on mana aswell...

Indeed, looking at logs atm.  here's my immediate thoughts:


6% wipe was good.  Im happy with the 2 healer strat we are now pursuing and can see it getting us the kill.

Spacing: 5 yards, not 50 yards please folks in P2.  I'm pretty sure I said that on TS last night.  If we spread out too much the tentacles are *******s to get to and kill.

Tanales - how about speccing into Entrapment for this fight?   If we get 8 seconds of stationary adds from firstly a frost trap, then a snake trap it would help a lot.  Plus, if snakes are humping adds they are likely to pull some aggro and so keep them stationary longer.

Fails:
-where we regularly failed was simply not remember that adds spawn shortly after the adherent dies.  Pretty obvious, but we need to be ready for the adds, screw the boss, turn and wait for the adds to spawn as they were what was killing us.
-Worship, we seem unable to see the CD for both Worship and little adds at the same time!  When a worship is coming shortly after adds, don't be 50 yards away on your own as you'll be the one to get MC'd and remain MC'd for ages as we can't get to you!

I'll be short and direct: this will be very tight if things continue like this.
Tonight raid was quite interesting from the healers point of view, we tried different tactics to handle the various difficoulty we were having.
You may have noticed that in the first runs i was going oom very fast and for almost all the attempts duration i was very low on mana. This was becouse i was trying to keep a 100% activity both on tanks and raid even if i had to heal one target per time, which is very mana draining for a paladin.However, even if this brought Slush to have little to no problems in the mana department, it still was too risky for the tanks.
We tried then to keep on our jobs, me sticking almost always on tanks and Slush on raid and popping an heal or two on the tanks when he could spare one. This worked good for me, i was able to save at least half my mana pool for the last phase (which allowed us to survive the tentacles for the first time i can remember), but on the other side was really tight for Slush: it just took one single mistake from the dps to dump all his mana (see the attempt where sheep died in the second last add phase).
I tried different tactics to handle the add tank as well. You know Halbarad is going out of range (i'm using an euphemism here, becouse to help the dps he's getting on the other side of the world, really) to make it easier for the dps to control and burn down the ads, that means i'll have to follow him down, resulting out of range on the following worship. I've tried to stick to the middle to avoid risks while being targeted in the worship phase, but it's making the healing too difficoult (i have 2 tanks to keep alive and i have to keep moving becouse of the shadow crashes on me or on someone near me) so i decided it was better to stay alone and far away from everyone else, so it's really unlikely i end up moving for the whole phase and not be able to heal; however this brings a new problem: i may not be able to get back in time. In the last attempt i was about 30 yards away from the raid when got hit by worship, i stayed in that state for some seconds, and then hal stunned me while running back, i had to be stunned for another 6 seconds, that's something like 10 seconds without healing (not to mention the time to run back) and i couldn't catch up: Hal died.
I wrote this just to let you know that healing wise is really tight: one single mistake will most probably lead to a wipe, if we afford to exclude the luck factor (as tl told me more than once).
Too Long;Didn't Read
We (as healers) can do little more to make this fight easier, but i'd like you to notice that most guilds (as you can check from the logs) are doing this with 3 healers, since they seem to have no problems to handle damage and adds with 5 dps.

Question @ Slush, how many times do you use youre mana tide totem in this fight?

Quote from: Tirkad;322060We (as healers) can do little more to make this fight easier, but i'd like you to notice that most guilds (as you can check from the logs) are doing this with 3 healers, since they seem to have no problems to handle damage and adds with 5 dps.

We discussed this last night and the main issue with going 3 healers is that most guilds doing this have more dps than us.  We would like to have a try again with three healers but we really need everyone to look at what they can do to improve their dps.

Quote from: Arcticfire;322070Question @ Slush, how many times do you use youre mana tide totem in this fight?

2 times.
1st time is when Mr. Choggy is at 60-70%, after Shadow Orders. This is when things start to heat up, people start getting corrupted and AoE heals has to be done through chains instead of rain due to everyone running everywhere.. Small adds+Shadow Orders is mana intensive.
2nd time, as close as possible to 2nd phase, or in 2nd phase if possible.


This guy needs massive dps. Its a race. Chog->Adherent->Fester Blood. Its all nuke nuke nuke. So I say we keep tweaking with what we have, as we got him to... 24% - 18% - 14% yesterday.
Havent looked through logs yet.
In phase 2.. ok, we might need priest dispells when things are getting out of control. I still see phase 2 as panic phase, though.
If we learn to control the transition, and everyone is confident about their role, this will be done soooon.

Are we extending lockout?

IMO, I would use it more, like 3 times, maybe even 4(fight shouldnt take that long, but you never know), maybe it isnt that effective on youre mana bar but im sure it will be on others.

Quote from: Arcticfire;322075IMO, I would use it more, like 3 times, maybe even 4(fight shouldnt take that long, but you never know), maybe it isnt that effective on youre mana bar but im sure it will be on others.

No, well... almost no.
1st of all, me and Tirk is usually pwetty ok on mana until Choggy at 60-70%. If we are not ok on mana, it means that someone is taking too much damage/group aint stacking up/got too much corrupted blood = might be a wipe in progress already...
2nd. It has a 3 minute CD. Soooo... After 30secs, 3minutes and 30secs and after 6mintes 30 secs would be best, yeh? But..
Our best try, when we got him to 14%, we spent 7 minutes and 14 seconds on that fight.
Spending a mana tide when Choggy on 93% is close to wasted.
As stated earlier, I want to get my mana up after Shadow orders+small adds phase, thats when its needed.
Not having a tide before/early during burn phase is risky. He reaches this phase at 25%. And.. yeh, mana totem is needed here.
I want to be at 100% mana when we get to that phase, and with tide.. and possible mana hymns, im guaranteed 50%+.

Sending good karma to TL and Switch for great hymns yesterday! :-)

Even on our best tries, we had mana issues. We had these because adds went into groups. And started corrupting our blood -> Vomit -> Dispells -> Chaos
When this is sorted properly.... and it was sorted properly most of the time, these mana issues wont be there. Its only a matter of finding a way to kill the adds before they reach us. Us, as in whoever has aggro on them.

I actually use it when im at 80-85% it will get you full, meaning you can use it another 2 times during the fights, its not about having a full bar during a phase its about having as much as mana during the entire fight, if you use youre mana tide more during a fight it means you can save the hymns for when its needed.

Quote from: Arcticfire;322081I actually use it when im at 80-85% it will get you full, meaning you can use it another 2 times during the fights, its not about having a full bar during a phase its about having as much as mana during the entire fight, if you use youre mana tide more during a fight it means you can save the hymns for when its needed.

I understand your reasoning, but I disagree. This fight contains of a few healing spikes. The biggest is at 25%->0%.
And, to be honest. I dont care if I run with 50% mana throughout the fight, and everyone lives, as long as I have maximum (as much as I can possibly get) mana when burn phase hits us. This is really when things get ugly. And when things get ugly, I use every GCD for something useful aka I try to drop my Mana Tide before Chogster is at 25%.

Further: If you use Mana Tide at 80%, tahts... 1 and 20 seconds into the fight.
You get next Mana tide up 4 minutes and 20 seconds into the fight.
Last one is 7 minutes and 20 seconds, and by that time, we should already be in burnphase.
This is if you manage timers with awsomeness. If you dont manage timers and GCDs with awsomeness, you wont see the 3rd Mana Tide.


Edit: To repeat one important thing: Mana is only an issue when something doesnt work out as planned. This far, we have been unlucky, but we are getting closer. And closer... And closer...

Double edit: Im close to full on mana when Chogmeister is at 80-85%

If I read youre statements correctly then I read you only care about mana recovery when you need it, you say you want to be full when the phase starts.
 
Id say, why not be full whenever you can, meaning you might not be 100% when it starts but you can get mana recovery during that phase.
 
As long as mana recovery has use, why not use it? its not like its going to waste and the quicker you use it the more you can use it.
Its not like the 20%(just making up a number) you get from the totem will be gone after a few seconds, its either used or still in youre bar.
 
Ninja edit: I use my Core of Rip. whenever I can, even if im at 90%, I use my other trinket whenever its done(only 4.2K per minute but still, mana = mana).

I dont think its possible to explain in any other way that:
I dont want to risk running OOM in last phase. Every in last phase for GCD is for a dispell/heal/movement/hug. I dont want to think mana saving heals/mana conservation in last phase, there is way too much **** closing in on the fan.
But I guess thats just my way of doing it. I feel comfy with it and it feels right.
If you want to do Mana tide 3 times in this fight, good for you. If it floats your boat, its good.

Now, RGW: That will be fun, eh?

K let me ask you a question then:P,
 
Why would you want to get mana when you need it, if you can get it before that point and after?

Quote from: Arcticfire;322089K let me ask you a question then:P,
 
Why would you want to get mana when you need it, if you can get it before that point and after?

Why would you want mana after you need it?
I like to have my mana when I need it.

That "need" was directing at the point you want full mana at the start of the burn phase.
 
My view at how you want youre regen is  that you want  1 or 2 mana regen "phases" to prepare for the upcoming phases.
 
How I would do/want it is to spread it out, making more use of it so you have more mana over the entire fight, and therefor also during the phases you want it.
Maybe you want be at 100% at the start but 2x50 makes 100 aswell, and im pretty sure that if you spread it our more and increase the use of it that it wont 2x50 but maybe 3x40 or 2x 55 or whatever.

Quote from: Arcticfire;322091My view at how you want youre regen is  that you want  1 or 2 mana regen "phases" to prepare for the upcoming phases.

Yes and no. I want regen to happen before intensive phase and after intensive phase to "get ready is something bad happens". This is why we do hymns and Tides and dance nekkid between 30% and 25% in this fight.
-30% - stop nuking boss. Get ready for adherent.
-Kill adherent
-Kill small adds
-Gather mana, and move boss to position.
-Get to boss to 25% and blow heroism.

Its ok if you can put down the Mana Tide Totem on 12% in this fight. But for me, no thanks. This totem only gives 8-12k mana, and it uses as previously mentioned a GCD.
Therefor: I want it down before 25% is reached. At 25%, there is so much bad stuff going on. And we are only 2 healers.

If I aim for 3 Mana Tide totems, there is no way I will be able to put down the third between 30% and 25%

Quote from: Arcticfire;322091and im pretty sure that if you spread it our more and increase the use of it that it wont 2x50 but maybe 3x40 or 2x 55 or whatever.

Why would I want to spread it out to having to do a mana totem at 12% when we might already be wiping then. Timers. Its not a 10 minute fight.

I just wont get that you dont want to use the totem to get from 75% to lets say 85-90% whenever you can and therefor increase the chance you can use it again.
 
Mana tide only effects base spirit so it has no extra use to combine it with hymns, the mana wont be gone its either used or still there so in both ways it either had its use or it will have its use.
 
 
3 Mana tides is 6 minutes, giving 1 minute to burn some mana then its 7 minutes.

7 minutes is too much. By 7 minutes we should be in burn phase. Application denied.

And these rules are not set in stone. If there are heavy damage from somewhere(Tirk MCed and im on tanks or similar). Ofcourse I blow the manatide after 30 seconds. But as a general rule, I save this for 70ish% to have Manatide up again on 30-25%.
I understand, and I respect that you disagree. But when you get there yourself, you will see that Brunphase is INSANE on damage taken. I need all the mana I can have before that.

To use a manatide, when it doesnt give me more mana is not considered useful in my eyes. Again, I respect that you have a different opinion.
But I regain all the mana i need from 80-70%, and this brings me back to 100%. So why bother?

by 7 minutes you should be in the burn phase, then thats great! youre already in the burn phase and then you get the mana boost to make it easier.
 
why bother?
caus of the many attempts I hear you guys are going OOM alot!

Wow. This is truly epic.
I say I am at 100% mana at 80%.
But you still want me to do mana tide totem at 90%.
I say I want full mana before we get to 25%.
You still want me to put down the totem at 12%. If timers are just a little bit off, this totem might not be done at all.

OOM - This happens, as previously stated... When something goes wrong. And with 2 healers only, we cant afford something going wrong to get this kill.

Im not discussing this anymore. GL doing it your way.

I am giving up, I guess things I say make more sense in my head then on paper.

Rofl. Yeh. .-) Those voices, eh?

actually I ment that I am clearly not able to put down the things I think on a way that other people know what I mean.;)

No, its voices mate. Have a doctor check it out.

Ok. Back on topic. New goal. New aim. Lets say we are good on heals. We are good on dps. Tanks rotations are ok.
What kills us? Corrupting Blood. Everytime.

Read:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/872065-cho-gall-issues#3

And I am quoting:
"No-one may have ANY corruption before p2 begins. Interrupts on the big adds must not fail, small adds may never reach the raid, interrupts on players, especially healers must be within a second or the incoming damage will grow. We have 1 gaypile during the bossphase, and an additional gaypile during p2 for the ranged. Make sure especially your melee is getting the interrupts right, and also make sure all of your dps plays defensively."

This is it. We know (Im monitoring Corrupted Blood through all fights Ive been in) that people get corrupted blood everytime.
There are 3 main reasons for this:
-Corrupting Crash - So easy to move from, its hard not to.
-Depravity - Interrupt Adherent when this is cast. Wait! WHAT!!!! YES!!!! THATS THE ONE TO INTERRUPT, MYTH!! I cant believe i found out in the logs that you were hit by Corrupting crash, and when I told you to move out in a whipser, you told me Corrupting Crashes were hard to interrupt. Let me straighten one thing out once and for all:
MOVE OUT OF CORRUPTING CRASH!
INTERRUPT DEPRAVITY!
-Blood of the old god. Seriously, I know you were dpsing the small adds, and they shouldnt reach us. But they did. And it increased our corrupted blood.

Im not sorry for being harsh, but I thought... when the guild had gone through over 30 tries, we really should know what to do.

May I ask for a goal next week:
Not getting any corrupted blood until p2?


Furthermore, this is how we should be set BEFORE he hits 25%.

(http://www.raidbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Chogall-Phase-2-snapshot.png)

Source:
http://www.raidbs.com/bastionoftwilight/chogall/totalbs-chogall/

Quote from: Whitey;322073We discussed this last night and the main issue with going 3 healers is that most guilds doing this have more dps than us.  We would like to have a try again with three healers but we really need everyone to look at what they can do to improve their dps.

Quote from: Slush;322109Ok. Back on topic. New goal. New aim. Lets say we are good on heals. We are good on dps. Tanks rotations are ok.

I'm sorry if i was a bit harsh to someone but i feel we're in the situation where we either improve the dps (general role duties intended here, not just raw damage per second) or we're not going anywhere (this means your very hypothesis are wrong there, Slush: you're not gonna reach any realistic conclusion from them).
Again, i don't want to be harsh, insulting or anything like that, but this is the simple truth to me: the dps department needs to make some effort to get better. I don't complain your decision to demand 50% more effectiveness from each healer (on an end boss, that just by itself is hard enough), as long as we're not the only one making an effort to get the kill.
Speaking with some officers, i felt that they're making their improvement requests in a way to get the kill as soon as possible and this meant demanding a lot from the healers instead trying to get what should be the bare minimum from the dps. I've got different feelings about it. First of all i'm flattered, becouse that means that i'm part of a group (the healers) that can be trusted in a greater challenge, even when this challenge has been discarded by all the guilds becouse it's too hard on their healers. But at the same time i'm doubtful, becouse that means you're using different weighting when analyzing the different roles performances. Let me explain myself better: i had some bad moments when first hitting some solid raid content, i was still doing plenty of mistakes. So i tried to get better, both consulting the theory and trying to figure out what i was doing wrong, becouse getting an extra healer or asking more from the dps didn't even come to my mind: it was something i knew i had to solve myself. And so i did, correcting my mistake, using more efficient spells at the right time, coordinating better with other healers.
Now the table is turned, but the burden of the progress feels like on the healers shoulders only (or at least for the greatest part).
TL;DR
I don't mind to push my limit further, quite the opposite: that's what i'm asking when i ask for progress. However it seems only fair that the others share at least part of the effort we're making. So i'm very happy to keep on using the 2 healers tactic, as long as those dps numbers keep going up.

@ Slush & Dreaman
We're open to any suggestion. If i understood what Arctic meant, he suggests we keep on using every mana cooldown every time the cooldown is up (and i'm speaking about raid wide cooldowns), starting after the first 20 seconds. The problem there is that it may go to waste if everyone is doing their job, since usually both me and slush are above 85% of mana until cho'gall hits 60% under that condition. However, as i said, we can try and see if it makes a difference.

From my perspective the story goes like this:

We started without sufficient dps to handle the adds
Moved to a 2 healer set up and got immediately into P2
We then gradually learned how not to get corrupted blood
Discovered frost mages
2 healer set up uses 1 ranged dps who is not on the adds at all at the moment
2 healer set up is not quite avoiding the 4th add and we have to call a dps break

So all of the above implies these choices:

(1) we push boss dps more to avoid the 4th add and keep healer mana reserves at a satisfactory level
(2) we move to 3 healers again (now that we are better controlling corrupting blood) and move the spare ranged dps back to help on the adds too - this should leave us pushing over into P2 just before a 5th add

(1) is not happening, so that leaves (2) as the next logical step imo.

The other MAJOR factor is that we need the boss moved into the alcove before we move into P2 and we as a raid need to follow.  If we're pushing it over prior to a 5th add then we'll not have the "small adds + P2" clash that we currently see, so it should be an easier transition.  Better placement by us will allow tentacles to be in a much more compact area.

:2cents:

Corrupted Blood eating us alive. Every single try.
We didnt have one single try where all was 20 or below. This is kinda sad. We should all do our best to avoid this, and this must be prio numero Uno.

We were doing good things tonight, though:
-Getting out of crashes.
-Interrupting depravity.
-Not running into the puddles of dead Adherents.
-Putting all kinds of slows on the small adds.

But; If we are running this with a one melee setup again. Let him stay on the boss throughout the fight.
Ranged (4) will then kill Adherent, and small adds. This means no Corrupted Blood on the melee guy.

Phase Final:
Corruption of the Old God â€" Cho’gall begins pulsing a raidwide AOE that hits for 5,000 shadow damage per two seconds. Damage is increased by 2% for every stack of Corrupted Blood an individual raider has.

I want to see this guy dead :-(

Well, today i was on the add for interrupts and then full on boss and helped out on adds as soon as i noticed they where close to the boss.
 
But i have done the little adds aswell another raidday, and i came only in problem with add wave 3/4 (to many adds to agro) but i still had my corruptedblood thingy at 20 max.
So it is very doable for even melee to not get agro and dps them down.

TL : DR Version
Move!  Don't take damage.  Do more DPS.  Right now we're ensuring we will die horribly in P2 by making a complete dog's dinner of P1.  

Not sure what else to say.  


Detailed Version: (no offence to individuals, but we need to address the numbers that we see and understand why)

Corrupted Blood
We have a few people who are not paying attention to adds.   Who had their leg humped last night:

Jesung   467341   19.6 %
Mythmaster   415472   17.5 %
Sheepher   277652   11.7 %
Amberleigh   197286   8.3 %
Tirkad   180261   7.6 %
Water Elemental   158350   6.7 %
Teaell   133473   5.6 %
Slush   133200   5.6 %
Earthbind Totem   108493   4.6 %
Zappa   107666   4.5 %
Grimnar   86136   3.6 %
Halbarad   36159   1.5 %
Jubrin   33895   1.4 %
Whytee   18040   0.8 %
Ebon Imp   13537   0.6 %
Tanales   11416   0.5 %

if you're toward the top of the list, it has to change.   Yes they should go down, but if they do not then you need to move and allow time for them to be killed.  If they're humping your leg then you were not paying attention!

Corrupting Crash (Shadow Crash)
I know that we will on occasion get an MC that means people get the MC broken and end up stuck in shadow crash, it happened to me twice last night.  However we need to handle this better because the bulk of what we are seeing is not down to being MC'd.  The top 5 shadow crash damage was taken by:

Amberleigh   779245   43.7 %   
Sheepher   268185   15.0 %   
Slush   218828   12.3 %   
Teaell    158244   8.9 %      
Mythmaster    142676   8.0 %   

We should handle this better and pay more attention. It just makes P2 harder or impossible if we do not.  

Make sure you have spell details turned up to Maximum and allow 5 yard clearance as the area of damage is wider than the animation.

Standing In Fire
Can't happen.  We have to move the moment it spawns.  Damage taken last night by standing in fire:

Mythmaster   752342   27.2 %   
Tirkad   351845   12.7 %   
Slush           346179   12.5 %   
Halbarad   223482   8.1 %   
Amberleigh   222927   8.1 %   
Grimnar   200557   7.2 %   
Sheepher   198231   7.2 %   
Whytee   192402   6.9 %   
Jesung   156646   5.7 %   
Teaell     74949   2.7 %      
Tanales   49104   1.8 %   

We *have* to be able to move out of fire.  Ther more we take, the more impossible we make the fight in P2.

Make sure your Scrolling Combat Text highlights damage you are taking so that you can see you are stood in damage!

Adherents (big adds)
Why such a disparity in the amount of damage done on these?  They are a dps priority the moment they spawn so that we can all get back to the boss and dps some seconds before the little adds spawn.  Damage done on adherents last night:

Teaell    10264189   21.0 %
Halbarad     9115704   18.7 %
Mythmaster 7963278   16.3 %
Jesung     6518229   13.3 %
Sheepher     6463220   13.2 %

Blood of the Old God (little adds)
People are still not always remembering that they spawn.  Several tries had an 'oh ****' moment where I realised that half the dps had not yet turned around.  We need to personally handle this better and be especially mindful of worships hitting just as adds come in and deal with the worship promptly.

Make sure your boss mod timers are in clear view of where you normally look on your screen!  If you miss them, move them and make them bigger!!

DPS
This is still a major concern of mine.  We're slow killing stuff, so we end up struggling with adds and then getting a 5th big add to off-tank until we push into P2.  This causes issues.  I looked on World of Logs and out of 35,805 logged Chogall kills, we have yet to reach the raid dps of the worst of them (and remember that the worst dps kill I found was a January kill and therefore most likely done in mostly blues not the phat puplz we're currently wearing).  

Of the 9 wipes on Chog last night, 4 just met the dps threshold (just barely), 5 failed it by a decent margin.  
In our best try we survived  8 mins 52 seconds but our dps levels for the 4 tries where we met threshold was on target for a 10 mins kill.  How would we survive over a minute of additional AOE with our corrupted blood levels so high at the start of P2?

Right now we're ensuring we will die horribly in P2 by making a complete dog's dinner of P1.

As healers, we really need to sort that last phase. I've checked different videos and logs from other guild of our levels and we have a lot to do in the last phase: the healing will be hectic and very, very stressful; from the next time i suggest to adapt our playstyle in order to have ALL the raw healing power cooldowns for the last phase. In each log i studied, there's a massive increasing in the healing in the last 15% of the fight, and that's the alcove part. Of course we'll need to have as much mana as we can at the start of that phase, and for this i really beg all the player attending to pay max attention in avoiding unneeded dmg/corrupted blood.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;322447Standing in fire

This is SO unfair! When you tell us to wipe it up fast i'm standing in the fire the whole time! :P

Lol, no. Fire is where we stand when a wipe is called.
So stand in fire means... dont stand in fire?
Wrong:
The reason we say stand in fire, is because it doesnt add to your corrupted blood. And thus is almost harmless. So please. stand in fire when wiping. Dont take damage from other sources. It makes logs easier to read and to interpret.

The corrupting crashes:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/52fd9vxj1y07zbo0/spell/81689/?enc=bosses&boss=43324

The next night of tries on this boss: The ones who take 0 hits from Corrupting Crashes... I will give 1000golds each .-) Happy reward, and a reminder to myself. As I

QuoteI looked on World of Logs and out of 35,805 logged Chogall kills, we have yet to reach the raid dps of the worst of them

I think this is it.
Our best try took this guy to 14%. And duh.. it lasted 8:46'sih? You know there is a 10 minute enrage timer?
Sheep, Tan, Myth, Grim, Mal, Monkey, Hippo, John and Paul... We need you to do something.
You need to look on your glyphs, your talents, your rotations/priorities, your reforging.
You need to kick it up. We are getting close to the enrage timer here. 70k total avg dps. This is not enough.
10-12k is not enough. We need 15k delivered from each and everyone of the dps'ers.

So ask yourselves... What can you do to reach 15k?
You say theres alot of movement? We know. Alot of target switching? We know, deal with it. And reach 15 k. (im a biitich! :-))

Now iover to something completetely different:
Healers: When 1 of you is MC'ed/ feared... the raid healer need to step it up and save the tank.
Slush: Yes, thats me, and im sorry, and I will step that up. I think both Hal and Whytee deserves to live, and I promise that I will do my best to not letting it happen again. The 2 times last night was 2 times too much :-/

The problem isn't just dps, even if it seems the biggest one, atm. We need to sort healing in a way to have A LOT more healing in the last phase. If you see the logs, sorted for healing done, you can see from the graph that in the last phase it's massively more stressful. That means we need to have a lot more mana and all the cooldowns we can have for the last phase, not to mention that a 2 healers strategy is not even an option, since the raid willl never survive the last phase with just 2 healers, at least in our current gear.

Quote from: Tirkad;322460The problem isn't just dps, even if it seems the biggest one, atm. We need to sort healing in a way to have A LOT more healing in the last phase. If you see the logs, sorted for healing done, you can see from the graph that in the last phase it's massively more stressful. That means we need to have a lot more mana and all the cooldowns we can have for the last phase, not to mention that a 2 healers strategy is not even an option, since the raid willl never survive the last phase with just 2 healers, at least in our current gear.

Doh.
Let me repeat:
Phase Final:
Corruption of the Old God â€" Cho’gall begins pulsing a raidwide AOE that hits for 5,000 shadow damage per two seconds. Damage is increased by 2% for every stack of Corrupted Blood an individual raider has.

Math question:
If you have 20 stacks.. thats quite normal in our raids.. how much shadow damage will you take every 2 seconds?
20x2%=40% extra shadow damage. Meaning... it will tick for 7000 every 2 seconds, instead of 5000.
How much is this, if the last phase lasts for... 1 minute?
2000 extra x 30 ticks = 60.000 hps extra.
5000 original aoe damage x 30 ticks = 150.000 original healing.
A total of 210.000 healing on a person with 20 stacks in the last phase alone.

This means... that if Slush get unlucky, and gets 50 (not 20) stacks before the last phase. We have to heal him for... 150.000 extra during the 1 minute last phase. to a total of 300.000 in 60 secs.
Thanks for the wipe, Slush!!!
In addition comes the stacks that Choggy puts on us :-/


2 man healing is an option. Its a very viable option, as WE ALL need to avoid shadow damage taken. And dps needs to kick it up. Thats really it.

But in addition.. Sure. Lets make sure healing assignments are sorted before we reach p2 :-D

Quote from: Tirkad;322460not to mention that a 2 healers strategy is not even an option, since the raid willl never survive the last phase with just 2 healers, at least in our current gear.

Wait... in current gear? We are not undergeared. Rather the opposite...
Being that sceptic to a great solution isnt good.

Lol 1 healed:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p0yodm7wipqgrzmy/sum/healingDone/

Quote from: Slush;322467Lol 1 healed:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p0yodm7wipqgrzmy/sum/healingDone/

I stand my case. The paladin you linked have at least 15 points more of my avarage ilvl, not to mention most of the best in slot, including the [ITEM=http://www.wowhead.com/item=64645]trinket[/ITEM] (God knows how much i've farmed it :( ). Not to mention that the whole raid performed almost flawlessly on the control side (the dps is a bit low, as you can see), with only one person breaking the 1k dmg taken.
Honestly, i'm trying to be realist here. No doubt we need to aim high, but i'm not expecting to see people going from 2,5k dmg taken to 800 in the span of a couple of days.
I expect, however, to see people getting better and more familiar to the fight mechanics, thus improving the general performance of the raid, and of course this include healers.
As you were so kind to show us, that healer pumped out 2 times the healing of each one of us, confirming my doubts about our (healers) performance, that MUST be improved, since there surely is space for improvement. To prove this point is enough to check the other aszune's guild who recently have killed Cho'Gall for the first time: they were all going for a 3 healers setup and a general raid healing of about 32k. Of course, some used a particular setup for this fight (like 2x survival hunters, to abuse all the traps talents), but in general the setup was similar to ours.

Given that this dude was killed in early raiding by folks in blues, can we put it to rest that we are under-geared please?  We're not under-geared, we are over-geared if anything and this Chog dude should die.

Quote from: Tirkad;322476As you were so kind to show us, that healer pumped out 2 times the healing of each one of us, confirming my doubts about our (healers) performance, that MUST be improved, since there surely is space for improvement. To prove this point is enough to check the other aszune's guild who recently have killed Cho'Gall for the first time: they were all going for a 3 healers setup and a general raid healing of about 32k. Of course, some used a particular setup for this fight (like 2x survival hunters, to abuse all the traps talents), but in general the setup was similar to ours.

Wait Tirkad.. wait....wait.... dont you understand the mechanics here? We 2 healed this down to.... 6%!? Remember?
We had that try when people were relatively unfamiliar with phase 2.

Healing done shouldnt be 32k per second unless our tanks take too much damage or 2-3 persons are standing in flames for minutes.

We have 24k healing done per second. This covers the damage taken in phase 1.
The mechanics of this fight says; If you get Corrupted Blood in phase 1, you will get more damage taken in phase 2.
We have so much corrupted blood in phase 1, that its no way noone is going to live through phase 2 with that amount of damage taken.

Let me see... one try. Only one try where we enter phase 2 with all on 0 stacks, and i promise you... its a kill.

LOL
Let me see just 1 try on each boss where we are at 1% with all people up and full, and i can assure it's a kill!

P.S.: I'm not saying that i am undergeared for the fight, quite the opposite (didn't i say that guilds in our situation have managed to kill him?). The gear reference was to the fact that i will never be able to get 13k+ of healing thone on this fight, but i sure can do much better than what i've done last night, that's all.

Quote from: Tirkad;322484LOL
Let me see just 1 try on each boss where we are at 1% with all people up and full, and i can assure it's a kill!

Now you're taking my statement out of context.
You are one of the best we got at avoiding gettting Corrupted Blood.
You think... that you should do more healing, because others are not avoiding getting Corrupted blood (=more damage taken)?


I say... no!
Lets all make a "NO to corrupted blood"-day!

Well yesterday i asked to swap with Tan as i knew for myself that i was a sort of dps loss to the raid.
 
I know for myself that i look at to much stuff (still the little tank in me) but to react on the fight for myself.
 
I noticed that i was the main interrupter (more like only one) on the big add, when i wasn't able Hal stepped in but that should be the other melee.
Because of that my full focus went to the interrupts and there is one part of my dps loss on the add, every 10 seconds i have to interrupt and that costs me energy for what i have to make sure i have in time. So i don't even get 1 full rotation on the add.
 
On Choggy i get in 1,5/2 rotations before another big add. That includes before wave 1 (little adds) a beserk and after wave 3 a beserk, and yes then i have an beserk just ready for p2. Also i try to keep up an innervate rotation to the healers and help out on the little adds even when said to go full on boss.
 
For my feeling a feral druid aint that usefull in a fight like this, but that can be me.

You have some valid points Grim. But to be perfectly honest.. No, you are not excused.
A druid brings in lots of raid tools
-Battle Ress
-Innervate
-A Mark of the Wild thats... well...usually not needed in RGT .-)
And, as an interrupter on big add (Depravity).. Well, one of you, myth or Noreia has to do this, allthough Hal handles alot of them.

I know alot of you DPS'ers think... Grrrr... "Yeh, sure he could do better.. NOT". He doesnt even know what he is talking about, that damned Slush-urk.
And that is true. I got no idea how to get your dps to 15k in this fight :-D But I know that its possible with the gear and skills you all have .-)

@ slush just for ur last point at dps....try a caster dps and even for that matter a melee that does inturupts but has to move....from boss to add to boss to little adds to boss....running round like a blue assed fly to get range and to avoid fire and other ****...
then ask for a dps push....
right tl is epic....hes a full time raider,not so much now but was....he is epic at what he does has **** loads of addons which help,i for 1 cant handlt that amount of info....ive tred and posted previously bout it.
After ur comments i feel like going back to being a healer

Switch, all I am saying is, that we need to optimize. :-)
And to optimize, one do need to turn stones.
Cata made us all start from scratch. But some of us has more raiding experience than others, yes.

In all fairness, me and dreaman are discussing totems and healing specs and rotations in these forums. And I try to be active to get more input.  I disagree with peoples reasoning too often, as its in my nature. But I do try it, and sometimes the new input suddenly is a part of my gameplan.
Im really sorry that many of the posts got deleted when the forums crashed, cause there were some interesting discussions.

When my druid got 85, i opened a thread in tanking forums. Its all lol, but saying how I do it often leads to someone else saying... "Here, this is how I do it. And I like it." maybe even with a link/explanation to why and how.
My DK and priority list... Twisted gave me input and answered on the forums. Really appreciated. Makes my DK tanking funnier and better.
Last thread made by a dps'er in the Melee DPS section of this forum was 27th May 2010.
Its a lack of posts and threads in the dps section of forums. Lack of interest?
There are nice posts everywhere:
     http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=23234

In this:
     http://www.shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&p=251866
There is an answer on how to dps the Tentacles.. I dont know if it is correct, but.. It should be discussed amongst the SPs thats raiding. Maybe even Grimnar reads this, and when RGW gets to Choggy, he will re-read and use it on his SP?!
"In the last phase I mind spike x3, mind blast, shadow word death the tentacles. Mind blast hits a lot harder since the last patch, especially when it crits as it usually will after 3 mind spikes. "
If I had a SP, I would have found this interesting.

Have any of the dps'ers been to maxdps.com, shadowpriest.com and such places? There are loads of interesting stuff. Elitistjerks.co is only a small fragment, and doesnt cover it all. Far from it.

I do actually believe TL when he says:

QuoteI looked on World of Logs and out of 35,805 logged Chogall kills, we have yet to reach the raid dps of the worst of them

So no, you are not allowed to go healing because i make a QQ post. (It was an informative QQ post, though)

Let's not make this too negative or personal please folks, we're trying to establish how to improve and kill the boss which is a positive thing for us all.  

Re dps addons, I actually just use the one addon which I helped you set up on TS the other day Switch, it's NeedToKnow (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/need-to-know.aspx) which is a very simple bar timer to track my spell CDs and DOT expirations.  

If people think I am running something special then I am happy to share my UI & addon list and to put together a ZIP/RAR file with my raid UI in it with bossmod warnings, cast bars & timers in what I see as the right place etc.  I've never tried doing that before but I'm sure it can't be too hard and if it helps the raid then I'm more than happy to attempt it.

Lol. We got him guys! We got him gooood!

Just want to say GOOD JOB ALL!!

How dare you nail him while im on my hols !!!  Well done all

Btw did you stick with the 2 healer strat ?

Nope, went with 3.  DPS managed to perk up and more importantly inbound damage was minimised.
Biggest P2 difference was the adds actually went down this time!

Hello, farm content.

Note for future.  MT healers need to stand apart during big add phase so that they do not both have to move at the same time to avoid shadow crash.

Bump for wednesday, dont just read this fight but learn it aswell. Ill have to do the same, read these 8 pages aswell as they arent here for nothing!

Comments on RGW's attempt tonight?

I probably had the easiest role of the raid. Pewpew boss, grab aggro on 1 ability, tank while other tank takes the adds, then back to pewpew.

I thought that, by the end we were getting the hang of it.

The things I felt we needed to work on the most is the adds. I can't stress how important they are to take down. When they hit soemone the give corruption and after 30 seconds they start doing aoe corruption. There was a definite difference withe the amount of corruption people gained depending on how well the adds died.

I would suggest that people get themselves TidyPlates. THe mobs floating health bars change colour when they target you, giving you the opportunity to move out of their way before they hit you. Since they do 10 corruption per hit and everyone really should be aiming for under 20 corruption before phase 2 killing the adds and avoiding their attacks is vitaly important.

Everything else was great. Everyone kept out the bad stuff, the swapping to the big add was clean, the grouping tight. I think a little bit more practice and we'll have him down in no time.

I would like to suggest a little change in the place where Corrupting Adherent (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=43622) (big add) dies. We shortly discussed it at the end of the raid yesterday, but I don't think a lot of people saw where I was bouncing while saying here :narnar:

Our layout last night (bit exaggerated):
(http://bossblueprint.com/php/get.php?img=SHNB9PP2q) (http://bossblueprint.com/view.php?img=SHNB9PP2q)

X is where the Corrupting Adherent dies, and the Blood of the Old God (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=43707) (small adds) spawn. The arrows show a path towards the healers. Blue square is where the adds are close together.

In this situation it is impossible for me to place a frost trap in such way that all adds are affected. The same applies for all AoE spells. They all have limited range of effect (most have a 10 yard radius), and to be optimal effective, the adds need to be together.
The blue square is too close to the group.

My suggestion:
(http://bossblueprint.com/php/get.php?img=Y8WzRFAMj) (http://bossblueprint.com/view.php?img=Y8WzRFAMj)

Make sure the first two Corrupting Adherent die close to the walls leading to the stairs. There is room enough to place the second add next to the first.
This layout has the big advantage that the adds are close together in an early stage. If I place my frost trap just before the blue square, all mobs are affected, and can be AoE-ed early. If any adds come past the blue square Hermioneg can freeze them with Frost Nova (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=122) and Cone of Cold (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=120). Also that looks to me as the ideal spot for any melee to help with AoE attacks like Fan of Knives (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51723).

Disadvantages are that one healer needs to move towards the stairs, and melee and off tank need to move further back from the group. But since all melee have some sort of movement boost (sprint, leap, jump, charge, shadow step, etc) they should be able to be back in the group and on Cho'gall very quickly. The healer needs to go only a bit further than now. The biggest problem would come from Conversion (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93204) and the resulting Worshipping (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93367).

Finally we should maximize dps on Cho'gall to make sure we prevent the 5th Corrupting Adherent, and hopefully even the 4th. So blow all short cooldowns all the time and blow your long term cooldowns with a cooldown of less than what we need to get to Cho'gall to 25% at the start. Hero/Time warp needs to be saved for phase 2, given the Temporal Displacement (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=80354) debuff of 10 minutes.
So control (no corruption at any cost) with maximum dps.

(disclaimer: lot of things shamelessly stolen from discussions in the previous 8 pages).

From my perspective you'll get better quicker if you handle Worship better/faster.  Too often people were not stacked, or not close and were left in Worship too long, often during and adds phase.   We had several instances of a worship not being broken because someone was too far away from the stack point - for non-hunters there's really no excuse.  

We also had worship issues when big adds are up and we had two specific types of problem.
-a big add is about to spawn and a worship is due immediately after.    We had people running away from the group for the big add wehreas you just need to sit tight and stay in the group for 5 secs to allow the worship to be dealt with and then break and go to dps the big add.
-taking too long to dps the big add down leaving little or no time to stack ready for the next worship.  As you get a couple of worships as the little adds spawn, you need to get back into position for these so that the Worship can be broken rapidly and the raid returning to dps/slows etc.  We know dps on the big add is too slow due to the panic in our debuffed MT's voice asking for a taunt when the OT is still tanking the big add.  Killing the big add quicker makes it easier for the Ot to taunt, the dps to be re-grouped for worship, the whole thing gets easier.

In general, try not to spread too far from the raid during the big add phase so that you can be reached for Worship.

Lego made the point about width of the adds.  That's simply a tank thing, you have to get used to how tight to kill the big adds to allow a narrow path for the little adds which slows/traps/AOE can then hit.  Too wide and adds miss the traps/slows and the adds start humping you.    

Too many stood in crash too often.  Stop the cast and move.

@Lego: you need 4 big add spots not 3.  As a healer I was not watching where they were dropped, but if they were that spread then you're right the positioning needs to change.  It has to be narrow enough to get them all into the same 'cone' for slows/traps/aoe.  If anything they need to be closer than your 2nd picture shows but offset/staggered so you get a zig-zag of drop spots.  You'll want to push into P2 after 4 big adds (possibly off-tanking the 5th add if Chog dps is too slow).  Much more than 4 is too many little adds to deal with and  causes issues.

(http://bossblueprint.com/php/get.php?img=ONrUsK5uk) (http://bossblueprint.com/view.php?img=ONrUsK5uk)
The positioning we try and use in RGT and as TL mentioned is more like this for the big adds. Get them as tight as you can without standing in the corruption of the last one.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;326172@Lego: you need 4 big add spots not 3.  As a healer I was not watching where they were dropped, but if they were that spread then you're right the positioning needs to change.  It has to be narrow enough to get them all into the same 'cone' for slows/traps/aoe.  If anything they need to be closer than your 2nd picture shows but offset/staggered so you get a zig-zag of drop spots.  You'll want to push into P2 after 4 big adds (possibly off-tanking the 5th add if Chog dps is too slow).  Much more than 4 is too many little adds to deal with and  causes issues.

I know, but the picture was getting crowded with arrows.

With the 5th spot, I think this would be ideal, since I doubt we already have the experience (with resulting controlled reactions) and dps to take them down with the placement Whitey's picture shows.
When Cho'gall is a controlled fight, it surely is a better placement.

(http://bossblueprint.com/php/get.php?img=qnyzgkhaH) (http://bossblueprint.com/view.php?img=qnyzgkhaH)

Blue square is where the small adds should be dead, at least most of them.

Bottom line is you do not want a 5th spot as 25 slimes is nasty.  You need to push P2 before the 5th wave of adds as handling 5 lots of adds is too much.  Plan on killing 4 big adds, 4 waves of little adds.  If you have not pushed P2 when a 5th big add spawns, just interrupt it, off-tank it and use the time before little adds spawn to push Chog into P2.

I think we were reaching around 50% (45-54%) while wiping, that was with 3 groups up or so. Reaching 25% was a bit out of range for us last night. :(

Ok my thoughts on improving dps for this fight:

Before we pull we must set the distance fairly. Get 1 person to stand where the 1st big mob gets pulled to and somone measure a 30 yard range. Put a ground marker here. This is where the gorup can stand untiul the 1st small adds are dead.

From this point, the group moves 5 yards or so away from the spawn area every time the adds die. This should hopefully mean that the ranged wont need to move at all for positioning and the melee have a smaller distance. This shouyld help increase up time as well as keep the group closer for the worship breaking.

Any thoughts?

What worries me the most is the lack of DPS and movement, not just in this fight but overall. If you look at the logs(and you should) and you are below 10K DPS(e) then youre doing bad.
The further we get into instances the more we notice these small things that need to be fixed.
 
So I suggest that people start checking the logs and they arent doing some good dps, then they should search the web for what they are doing wrong, or you could use the forum area here to ask for advice from guildies.

Why do i get a feeling some people only look at numbers...
 
Take a look at the fight and check what that class has to do aswell and remember what happend during the tries...
 
As now people are just going to focus on their dps instead of the tactics etc.

I think you both got a point here.. Yes there is more then just the numbers BUT seeing Chogall is a dps race for phase 2 it is important that certain minimums are there. And dont get me wrong.. im not saying they arent there.. cause i dont know what dps is needed to do a smooth 2nd phase.
On the other side, the DPS says nothing when you got 20k dps but you dont kill adds, move from fire's etc etc.
And what grim is saying.. lets take Chogall for example.. in theory me as a hunter should be above all melees on that fight just cause i can AoE during add phase.

Quote from: Ice Hawk;326756Why do i get a feeling some people only look at numbers...

Not sure who you mean here Icy or if the comment helps.

Quote from: Treach;326700Ok my thoughts on improving dps for this fight:

Before we pull we must set the distance fairly. Get 1 person to stand where the 1st big mob gets pulled to and somone measure a 30 yard range. Put a ground marker here. This is where the gorup can stand untiul the 1st small adds are dead.

From this point, the group moves 5 yards or so away from the spawn area every time the adds die. This should hopefully mean that the ranged wont need to move at all for positioning and the melee have a smaller distance. This shouyld help increase up time as well as keep the group closer for the worship breaking.

Any thoughts?

I had to think about the pro's and con's quite a bit to come with arguments why the current setup is better. Your pro arguments sound attactive for dps. So here are my arguments against it.
1) Your setup would place the group about in the middle. That would make the distance between the small adds and the healers/tanks very small. Leaving even less margin for mistakes
2) The big add casts Corrupting Crash, which causes corruption if you get hit. If the majority of the group starts together, the chances are high that a member of the group is targeted and everyone has to move, while the impact is next to the boss and tank.
3) When P2 begins, Cho'gall should be next to a wall. Having him in the middle of the room makes it a big kite.

Quote from: Arcticfire;326746What worries me the most is the lack of DPS and movement, not just in this fight but overall. If you look at the logs(and you should) and you are below 10K DPS(e) then youre doing bad.
The further we get into instances the more we notice these small things that need to be fixed.
 
So I suggest that people start checking the logs and they arent doing some good dps, then they should search the web for what they are doing wrong, or you could use the forum area here to ask for advice from guildies.

While I normally do not agree when DPS gets accused  that low dps is the reason for wiping, I have to agree in this case.

I think dps will go up as we get used to the fight and know when we must hold back a spell to have it available on the big adds. I played in a different spec last wednesday (still SV) that was more for slowing the small adds, but I noticed that my dps dropped a bit.
Fact it that in our best attempts we were overrun by small adds while the Cho'gall was still far from 25%. Having Cho'gall at 45% when the 5th big add comes is a wipe, and that was our best attempt.

I also think that we should get Hermioneg back in Arcane spec or Fire spec so she can do way more damage on Cho'gall and the big add. If you look at frost damage compared to the other specs for 10 man normal raiding (http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/adjusted-10n.jpg), it's just horrible. But only if we have another ranged to slow/push back the adds like a boomkin.
That Hermioneg will do less damage to the small adds, I'm very willing to risk. At least, for a dozen tries or so.

I agree that blaming DPS/Tanks/Healing isnt the thing to do normally but its the truth atm. Some of our DPS is just to low, not just on Cho'gall but also on other bosses. If the DPS would be low on just Cho'gall then we could blame it on him being a new boss and getting used to it, but thats not the case atm.

Looked at the logs my DPS needs a boost so i will be buying gear over weekend...(any nice helms or shoulders about let me know)
I think with my limited knowledge that the first 2 or 3 spawns of small adds seem to be managed quickly and there could be a capacity to leave 1 dps on the boss/big add as suggested by Lego.
I found myself pullin aggro on the 4th spawn of small adds and had to kite and kill em away from raid. Forgive my sithyness but could we drop the first adds closer and the later adds behind to give more time ?
Glad I have found a use for solar beam finally :)

Quote from: Sithvid;326772I found myself pullin aggro on the 4th spawn of small adds and had to kite and kill em away from raid. Forgive my sithyness but could we drop the first adds closer and the later adds behind to give more time ?)

The small adds spawn from all patches. And it makes the kiting of the big add by the tank harder.

Run some ZA/Zg in a guild group over the weekend, and you should get extra gear a bit cheaper :)

Quote from: Legolei;326767I also think that we should get Hermioneg back in Arcane spec or Fire spec so she can do way more damage on Cho'gall and the big add. If you look at frost damage compared to the other specs for 10 man normal raiding (http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/adjusted-10n.jpg), it's just horrible. But only if we have another ranged to slow/push back the adds like a boomkin.
That Hermioneg will do less damage to the small adds, I'm very willing to risk. At least, for a dozen tries or so.

It will certainly improve Chog damage, but it will challenge you more on little adds with fewer slows.   That's the challenge I guess and where you need to find your own balance as a raid group.  For RGT's part when we first got the kill we found that a hunter & frost mage gave us the control we needed, the dps was not an issue.  A good frost mage is not that far off non-frost spec dps levels according to Sheepy.

Alot of progress has been made yesterday:
 
-Big adds went down faster(I think we can still win some time here).
-Small adds went down fast and were handled great, thx Sheepy for sharing your frostmage tactic with Hermi. I think that helped alot!
-Corrupted blood, we did way better then before on this, still progress to be made. The biggest issue is the crashes. Further in the fight they will also be in the raidgroup itself, stay on your toes. You guys know who I am talking about :P.
 
-Cho'gall, way more DPS on this guy, were getting to the point that the 5th add wont spawn.
-Tentacles, first time we saw them yesterday, I think we noticed we need to keep alot of focus on these. I think a macro or just "tab"ing would be usefull to check if they are dead.

I thought id check some logs and stuff but arent the try's on Cho'gall on there?

Anyway i been lissening abit to the raid you guys had yesterday and i there is not mutch to add then what sheep already said :D ADDS ADDS ADDS ADDS! :P

Anyway.. Goodluck on wednesday! hope youll get it down!

Ye thats my fault, I forget to load the log program -.-

Quote from: Arcticfire;327007-Tentacles, first time we saw them yesterday, I think we noticed we need to keep alot of focus on these. I think a macro or just "tab"ing would be usefull to check if they are dead.

Great to hear that good progress is being made.  

I wanted to underline what Arctic said about tentacles.  It cannot be stressed enough, these are an absolute priority at ALL times, I think the worst case example RGT had was a try where a non-Raid Leader at 500k HP left made the call on TS to "ignore the adds, just dps the boss" and we ended up wiping!

The other thing to highlight, is that the tentacle prio is not just for dps - anyone with an interrupt HAS to use it on a tentacle in P2 at every CD.

Looking forward to seeing an RGW Chog kill real soon! :thumbsup: :dmw:

Quote from: Arcticfire;327011Ye thats my fault, I forget to load the log program -.-

The BoT logs are uploaded.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;327012The other thing to highlight, is that the tentacle prio is not just for dps - anyone with an interrupt HAS to use it on a tentacle in P2 at every CD.

This includes the tank who's not on Choggy. I got my ass chewed by Whitey 1st (and only) time I didn't do that :S

Quote from: Arcticfire;326746What worries me the most is the lack of DPS and movement, not just in this fight but overall. If you look at the logs(and you should) and you are below 10K DPS(e) then youre doing bad.
.

I just have to ask about that.. Is it DPS(e) that we should have over 10k? I been looking the DPS numbers.. (the one without the e)
just wanna know so we talk about the same numbers :)

@palls, ye the DPS(e) should be over 10K
Atleast that should be the goal, because the e stands for effective IIRC

Correct Arctic.  

DPS is a measure of the level of DPS you were doing when you were active.
DPS(e) is a measure of how much DPS you did across the whole fight including the times when you were not active (ie not using abilities or casting etc).

Ignoring rounding errors:   DPS x Active% = DPS(e)

Ignoring specific combat roles: If your Active% is low then you have to ask what you could have done in the time where you were not doing anything.  Low Active% leads to lower DPS(e) which is a more accurate measure of the contribution you make to that particular fight.