Quotehttp://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/333u4l8bzev8riyg/details/9/?enc=bosses&boss=41376
Would like you to have a look thu the logs for the Neff fights and see what you think before we try him again. It should show a list of all the deaths for sheep. Click on the deaths tab to show each death then the (more) link to expand the last 30 secs of his life and you can see how much you were throwing at him.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/333u4l8bzev8riyg/details/11/?enc=bosses&boss=41376
This one click the healing by spell tab and it shows your casts through the fights. Its saying you did 489 prayer of healing on the fights 40% of it was lost to overheal. Meaning that an 8k heal was hitting around 5k on targets that have a health pool of 120k (It's a drop in the ocean). At a quick glance it looks great on the healing done meters as its aoe but it's not effective at keeping health pools up. Mix that in with the cast time and you end up being locked out of doing much else.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/868934-Holy-priest-Nefarian-%2810N%29-low-heal-throughput-and-OOM-in-P2
Maybe have a read of this and see if any of them can tell ya stuff on the fight you don't know
It's not a dig but at the moment you seem to be having problems with this fight (correct me if im wrong) When we start getting constant wipes we need to look into whats going wrong. Let me know what you think and what we can do to nail it.
Anything you feel needs adding before i send a pm ?
Should that first url not be:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/333u4l8bzev8riyg/survivability/?enc=bosses&boss=41376
Also, not sure where the 'more' button is. If you use the survivability page, then click the death in each wipe you get a pop up of the last 30 seconds of that person and can see what heals and what damage happened.
both ways bring you to the same place... just tried em
Aye they do, perhaps I was expecting the first link to go to the survivability page which we used last night to then click on each death one after the other?
For me the first link takes me to a general page for Sheepher for all Nefarian fights, with Tabs for Damage by spell, Healing by spell, Damage by actor, Healing by actor, Buffs gained and Buffs cast. It does not show a list of all deaths for Sheepher. That's what I was questioning.
The second time the link was used made sense as it allows Amber to consider the types of spell he was using, selecting from the tabs offered on that page.
Or am I missing something?
first link comes up with a graph ... end tab "deaths" that gives the last few seconds of each death...with a "more" link on each one to expand it. Just see if you get the same if not ill change it
Ah, got you, never went into it that way before! I must be going blind!
Not sure about this ..I just see him trying to dodge the problem
Quote Re: Neff Fight
well i dont really know what to make of the meteres TBH
since your stating that my aoe heals are wasted on overhealing, just am i supposed to use ?
TL tells me that i`m using binding heal too much, and your saying tha using POH(aoe heal) is wasted- thus we have a sever conflict as thus:
1 - there`s 10 members of the raid- i can(have been told to) ignore the tanks- this leaves 8
sheep is taking some obscene spike damage off the adds- longer they live = more damage he`s gonna take if they touch him, so he`s soaking up masses of heals(and mana)
since i`m assigned to raid healing this requires me to heal all members(8)
8 players take 100k + of crackle damage(leaving them on roughtly 35% life)
in order to bring the 8 players life back to 90%+ i will then be requires me to cast coh+poh on each group this will give all 5 players in that group (in 30yard range of the target) roughly 10k-18k + 8-18k ish per grp, with tick over(if in holy spec) so in the time i`ve completed my rotation, i should be able to finish off with 1 last PoH
but your saying i`m wasting time and mana in doing so(apparently overheal)- so this is a major problem- it`s like asing a shammy NOT to use chain heal and NOT to use healing rain
so since greater(and shite lesser) heal take2.3secs to cast each time- this offers 22k+ healing on 1 target, and thats it- 1 target- not 4 or 5
2.3 x 7 players(excluding myself) - assumine i do not have to heal sheep at the same time(and hit every heal bang on to clip) = 20+ sec of time to bring the raid back up, ofc in the mean time we are getting 20k+ tail swipes, and 2 sec stuns, this includes me
so say i`m 2 secs into a greater heal(or aoe heal- as they are roughly the same time) and i get tail swiped- this stops my healing, and adds 2+ 2.3(cast time) to start again- this is now giving you the 8sec delay that tl was saying to me, but he seemed ignorant of the tail swipe- and because he has like 30% haste- his spells will not take so long.
2. a lot of the forums are stating MASTERY (for heals) is a pure win win win
so then u have the haste VS Mastery problem.
haste= faster heals(GOOD)
mastery= better heals+ shield absorb(for disc) or +heal+ tick over heals for holy
tl has also mentioned i have the wrong disc build(as in not the same as his off spec)
well thats just tough, its my class, i prefer my build, and dont like the AA/smite build, as its too unreliable if there is a blood dk or anything with a pet in the raid- personally landing a 25k smite- to have it heal 25k on a blood worm/ hunter/locks pet is just naaf, and you have just wasted time doing dps- to have it notthe tank.
As disc i was assigned to heal the tank- simple, awsome for me and the tank, i can keep the tank up very high due to the massive mitigation provided via mastery (read 40-60k of mitigation on a heal)
this seems to have been ignored as a fact, and we now have jas + tirk on the tanks
not and easy job for either of them as they use up a vast amount of mana on this- i get 8-9k of mana back after EVERY shield(within the 12 internal cd) so i have masses of mana- when on solo healing duty- and can land some(aoe) heals on the group and maintain the tank
Blizzard seem to have solved some of the issues when placing the light well on the floor(as the inner circle was filtered for the lava) and the LW could not be placed, and i had to place it on the middle ring- where the raid group largley ignored it and the bug also caused problems when placing my chakra-holy word sanctuary hot healing all playes in it - but it relys upon players standing in the sprkly stuff (training req)
so its down to a lot of things- like players mitigating as much damage on themselve, to make the raid healers job that much easier, i may have to change my healing rotation (this will require live practice) and some good fortune on where the adds land- sheep not running behind the pillar(out of LOS) tl said just follow him- so when i`m running after a mage who can blink- its just stupid- as i`m moving- i CANT CAST BIG HEALS (thus i igored this "advice")
another option is to change the type of add kite to something that weares plate(like a frost dk in blood pres) and see how that goes
or simply bench me(again) and use another type of healer for raid healing- ofc they cant use their aoe heals to bring the raid back up- so you back to square 1.
discuss
Sorry, but he's acting like an ass and twisting some things that happened, like me explaining to him why (at the time) even with his type of non-AA disc build he still had talent points in the wrong place. :doh:
The fact that we can put an AOE healer like Slush into the fight and it works fine, then it doesn;t work with him is madness. As holy he let Sheepy die so his AOE healing is pointless. As disc, he managed eventually to keep Sheepy alive, but then lost his group. Nobody else has this problem in the raid guilds I know that use priests on this fight.
Quote from: Ambersince i`m assigned to raid healing this requires me to heal all members(8)
He forgets that he's assigned to Sheepy as prio first, it was explained to him multiple times after losing Sheepy in the first 7 tries. Screw the raid healing at the beginning, heal Sheepy - he is not even listening to us! Crackles happen after adds go down, so there is not conflict here unless you want to use crackle as a diversion for not doing your job on Sheep in the add phase.
Tail swipe causing 2 second stuns at a critical time for healing Sheepy? Why not use his human 'get out of jail card'? Basic stuff like this he should know and be doing already.
Quote from: AmberAs disc i was assigned to heal the tank- simple, awsome for me and the tank, i can keep the tank up very high due to the massive mitigation provided via mastery (read 40-60k of mitigation on a heal)
this seems to have been ignored as a fact, and we now have jas + tirk on the tanks
This makes me laugh - seeing as his Sheepy tank died a **** load. He says one thing and fails to deliver it in a raid. Remember when we put him on tanks in our first Halfus tries and he failed horribly?
I need to stop there, he just makes me angry as he is full of excuses.
I think he is simply not up to the job. Perhaps it is the time to tell him why he gets benched (again). Because we simply cannot trust him to handle the task set on more difficult fights when other healers manage it fine. This week we wiped 7-8 times due to him alone. Last week he wiped us at least 5 times by being totally unable to run to the correct platform. He's not cutting it.
Either he accepts some of these problems we are experiencing, or we need to recruit another priest and replace him.
This is my draft response to Amber. Comments please before I post it.
QuoteNot sure what to say here Amber. I was raid leading so I'm the one who asks what happened. I'm sorry that you are not comfortable when this happens, but I'm pretty sure everyone else in the raid will confirm that I always ask what happened when something goes wrong no matter who it is. I accept that this is not something that DMR has done too much in the past, but in Cata we (DMR Council) took a conscious decision to identify where we wiped, why and then try to solve the problem. This has resulted in us clearing all content and getting onto heroic modes faster than we have ever done as a guild and people seem happy with the results we're getting as a 'mere' social raid guild.
Calling the questions 'QQ' or describing them as finger pointing is hardly fair though. We're allowed to look at why we wipe - we do it to help the raid and improve performance, not to drag people down. However we do need raiders to accept the questions are an attempt to help the raid - if people continually get overly-defensive about things then we never get to spend time solving the problem. If we did not do this then we'd not have progressed as far as we have to date.
As to specific concerns, the thread you link is to do with a heroic fight so I'm not sure it is relevant to a normal mode fight. Certainly it does not have much relevance to the problems we were seeing and trying unsuccessfully to solve. I'll try to explain.
Tonight we were trying to understand what you were healing as despite being on a MT healing role, we saw regular periods of minimal or no healing on the MT which led to an MT death.
We linked logs to show you what we were concerned by because previous attempts to ask were met with different answers about cast time, tail swipes and mana issues which simply did not make sense to us. For example:
Try 2: Hal dies and we wipe. In the previous 17 seconds you healed Hal for 1xPoM and 1xFlash heal.
Try 3: Hal dies to a 69k electrocute. You blamed the electrocute for the death and it did indeed kill him, but the point we were trying to make was that the reason a 69k spell killed a 200k tank was that in the previous 10 seconds he only got 1xPoM and 1xGreater Heal from you.
Why does an MT healer heal the MT for so little? It's these problems we were trying to work through with you as we can't understand why more heals are not on the tank when you are an MT healer. Yes others might need to help out from time to time as range allows, yes specs make a difference, but we were losing the MT in Phase 1 regularly and seeing insufficient healing on him - there's no point being mana efficient if your main tank is dead!
It's not a witch hunt, but it is about making sure that on the more challenging fights, where we all need to perform at an optimal level, that we are all staying on task and doing our roles to the best of our ability.
Posted as per Jas.
Basically Amber is 'brimming'. His bucket is full and is getting caught in the headlights like a rabbit when there's a lot going on in a fight.
Posted in the Ragnaros thread and asked the first TWO to die on each try to post why they died. The aim of this is simple, I need Amber to understand what he is doing, so please so not hold back - Hal if you died because you were not healed, why not summarise like: "in 15 secs prior to dying I had 1 GH from Amber (my healer)".
We need Amber to wake up, so let's be honest. Tough love time please.
checked all of them now (a bit late I know :P) but they were all due to lack of healing from amber and I might have been a bit direct but hey :P
Thanks Hal, I'm editing them in now. Logs look bloody awful for Amber :sad:
ye agreed but what can do we, he needs to know that he dont heal enough and for that reason cause wipes
Aye, he caused a tank death on 5 out of our 6 tries. That's a total fail in my book. Why the heck aren't we seeing more healers apply.
I'm guessing its cause all good healers are in guilds already witch is a shame since we need them :P
I bumped this thread as it is often good to remind ourselves where we were in times gone by - and this is one of those times when I honestly believe we have 'given' enough, 'carried' enough and 'suffered' enough.
As I fraps'd every try last night I was able to extract this gem:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1382[/ATTACH]
In terms of the timeline:
-both Terrors were still alive.
-Whytee was getting large stacks and had just called Hal to taunt (hence the little red aggro dot on Hal too), so MT healing requirement was at a maximum
-the UI shows a PoH being cast on Group 1 (the green + healing numbers) at a point when pretty much the whole group is at decent health apart from the under-stress MT who benefits from a 12k PoH and an 8k aegis.
:frusty:
Within 2 seconds we get Whytee's death and we lose our 2nd Heroic Madness kill:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1383[/ATTACH]
The raid is clearly not taking huge damage, Whytee clearly *is* taking huge damage and we get a PoH thrown on a group that doesn't need it? But let's not forget he got an aegis. :angry:
I think the time has come for this to be sorted. I do not want to do MoP with Amber in RGT. Sorry, I just do not enjoy him being in RGT when we have to work around him for everything we do. It hinders us as a team, it disrespects those who do put in the effort and frustrates many of the better performing raid. At the end of the day there is a limit to how much of a 'social' raid group we are and I think I have reached that limit. It's not this specific issue, it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I'd like us to discuss and agree on a plan for a different healing camp in MoP.
Irrelevant other than as a corollary to our TS discussions last night during Madness.
Just as you had suspected, Amber did not cast PS on you for Platform 3. He actually cast it on you in Phase 2 whilst you were tanking the Terrors. There is no other PS cast for him in the logs at all. Not exactly a surprise.
[21:11:51.497] Elementium Terror Tetanus Whytee 38759 (A: 19739, R: 40624)
[21:11:51.764] Amberleigh casts Pain Suppression on Whytee
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zb0uhu8zmtysr09s/xe/?s=6157&e=7035&x=targetName%3D%22Whytee%22&page=30
Ah well, all history now.
Ya learn something every day :D
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QuoteThanks for the PM amber
The problem we had was too many in the pally/priest/warlock we had to make the major cut there.
We were prepared to live with the shammy situation that you point out. We talked about the last healing spot and to get full balance we would (like/not need) a monk. We have TL with an offpec if a priest was needed. The use of offspec will be used a bit more to limit the number of people on the bench. After the chat with ya good self we had the right number of players. 3 full time and 6 possible using offspec. We didnt want to reduce the players anymore but it did open up an option for the heavy shammy section to roll on a monk. We asked them to have a think about it as it will be a big commitment to go from 0-90 very fast. If nobody was to take up the offer then we would live with what we had.
This was all done after our chat so the main point being that we would be 3 healers and using offspec healz if nobody wants to change. I can see where you are coming from. We removed you as a healer then put someone else in. This is not the case. We needed to loose a priest healer. Any other changes were only offered to the shammys but if they didnt take them up we would stick with what we had
Regards the class balance in general we have just about everything coverd with offspec
As an example 2 pally tanks but we also have guru/zaul if needed ... whitey has his healing os if needed. Its like that across the board. If needed the options are there but not obvious (apart from a boomkin and i may end up being that :( if needed
I do appreciate your PM and fully understand the confusion. I hope this clears it up a little.
Add to.... cut away... re do ...... the floor is open
You missed the bit on the bottom about him causing more wipes than anyone else but other than that....looks good to me :D
Works for me, well done Jas, thanks :)
Sent ... hope its enough
the reply
QuoteThanks for the info jas, i was just wondering about the shammy camp, and that by having a monk in their ranks, that it would put further pressure upon the tier fight (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/bleh.gif)
Having you go boomkin, oh dear, not a good thing, jas as a insane fluffykins let loose /FLEE !
Nice of you to explain the situation tho, as i hadn't realised how far you were really trimming the raid group, and utilising the off spec roles within the raid environment.
As for Mists, i really don't know what is going to happen with myself, another year into my degree, and having to put more time into research, so this may benefit myself more than the raid group (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/bleh.gif)
I really hope this go well for both raid groups when mists comes out, and like i said, i will give it my all, as i did with RGT.
All the best
Steve
sound nice and positive
TLC time for Amber please and this info is in confidence.
Just so people are aware, he had a nightmare of an night. A nephew of his (just turned 18) went off the edge, got in a fight at a pub, got beaten up, then went back to the pub & grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed the guy who beat him up in the neck. Threatened violence on Amber's sister, Amber's Mum, Amber & the whole family. Amber is real shook up. The nephew is now in custody, the stabee is in intensive care and Amber is in shock.
Hug him some when you see him please and treat him carefully.
bugger me ...