Apologies for this late raid report, ill admit a combination of work and Crysis 2 has distracted for me for a few days, so without further adue I shall begin.
This weeks first raid day saw us venturing into BWD, defeating magmaw and omnitron on there 2nd or 3rd attempts respectably and Maloriak i believe it was on the second attempt (by then we had 1 hour remaining) and then came our attempts on Chimereon and Artramedes... and came the bad times :sad:
Chimerons first attempts went bad due to AOE healing being insufficient but with some organising of melee and casters with back up healing abilities we managed to pull through, however this still wasnt enough due to a DPS shortage that prevented us from getting him to Phase 2 (chase chase die die phase) before healers ran out of mana or the group became too damaged to survive the chasing.
After id say about 10 attempts on chimeron (may have been less) we decided to attempt Artramedes (who as many would say is easier considering the gongs interupting his raid wipers and all you gotta do is dodge stuff) however the two/three attempts we did make were (considering we 2 shotted him last time) pretty damn abismal :crying:
People were not dodging the sonic disks (the ones you must dodge) instead opting to run through them or to stand still and get off one more attack and get stuck in them till they had a high sound rating, dodging the disks is a prio, DPS isnt a prio in any of the raid fights (by DPS i mean nuking boss to hell) until the final % and when Drea says to nuke such as maloriak, they are about survival!!!
Also the gongs on Atramedes went to shot, either being used too early or with the gong activater not being close when they needed to be activated, i understand that people who wernt with us last time were there however watching the youtube videos and reading the tactics (id recommend the yogspot videos as they are better then tank spots) should give you a fair if not immediate grasp to the fight mechanics... they arnt as complicated as you think.
Short summary of what needs doing - DPS needs increasing (not everyone, however if you have recount you should know who you are and if you did good or bad, so get farming gear etc), gong activer (s) needs to know what to do without being told, and anyone who isnt clear 100% on there job or what to dodge needs to get on youtube and watch the yogspot or tankspot w/e video you prefer to learn there task and his abilties (expecting us to explain tacts shouldnt even cross your mind, im sure Drea doesnt mine refreshing memories on an abilitie or 2 but he shouldnt be explaining entire fights... do your homework!!!!
Vladic the Fruitcake
for the gongs.. just watch the timer.. when it says 10 sec.. run to the gong ( 15 sec? if you gotta run to the other side. ) and if you can use a class with speed boost like a hunter :)
QuoteThis weeks first raid day saw us venturing into BWD, defeating magmaw and omnitron on there 2nd or 3rd attempts respectably and Maloriak i believe it was on the second attempt (by then we had 1 hour remaining) and then came our attempts on Chimereon and Artramedes... and came the bad times :sad:
What went wrong on the first bosses then? What info do you have that can help out the whole raid group?
Quoteand when Drea says to nuke such as maloriak, they are about survival!!!
My big question here is: Do people even listen to the raidleaders? Or is TS a big mess?
QuoteAlso the gongs on Atramedes went to shot, either being used too early or with the gong activater not being close when they needed to be activated, i understand that people who wernt with us last time were there however watching the youtube videos and reading the tactics (id recommend the yogspot videos as they are better then tank spots) should give you a fair if not immediate grasp to the fight mechanics... they arnt as complicated as you think.
Was this part of the fight explained at the start of the fight to the people? Or asked if they knew what to do. As watching a video a few times is one thing but doing it for yourself is something else.
QuoteShort summary of what needs doing - DPS needs increasing (not everyone, however if you have recount you should know who you are and if you did good or bad, so get farming gear etc), gong activer (s) needs to know what to do without being told, and anyone who isnt clear 100% on there job or what to dodge needs to get on youtube and watch the yogspot or tankspot w/e video you prefer to learn there task and his abilties (expecting us to explain tacts shouldnt even cross your mind, im sure Drea doesnt mine refreshing memories on an abilitie or 2 but he shouldnt be explaining entire fights... do your homework!!!!
Explain yourself a bit better here please.
As i pretty got lost here...
Quote from: vladic;324920however this still wasnt enough due to a DPS shortage that prevented us from getting him to Phase 2 (chase chase die die phase) before healers ran out of mana or the group became too damaged to survive the chasing.
Vladic the Fruitcake
There is a debuff that reduces healing by 99% is P2, also, on the attempt where we got to P2 we had a massacre just before the debuff kicked in which is whey everyone was on such low health, was unlucky
Quote from: vladic;324920Apologies for this late raid report, ill admit a combination of work and Crysis 2 has distracted for me for a few days, so without further adue I shall begin.
Why waste time on work? :narnar:
Quote from: vladic;324920This weeks first raid day saw us venturing into BWD, defeating magmaw and omnitron on there 2nd or 3rd attempts respectably and Maloriak i believe it was on the second attempt (by then we had 1 hour remaining) and then came our attempts on Chimereon and Artramedes... and came the bad times :sad:
I'll try to give my view on these attemps, mainly focussed on the dps. Facts from here (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s0zkt4i7kk64kal4/), many thanks to the uploader. Let me start by saying that I do not want to point fingers, so I will only name myself when it comes to errors.
Let's start with Magmaw. Unfortunately the wipe is not on in the uploaded log, but what I could see in my quick recount check, we lost control of the adds. For my part, I know I had multiple times not enough time between the adds to place traps in time. In previous week, Nims did his fan of knives, using tricks of the trade to not get aggro. Combined with ranged dps, that was enough to let me finish off all adds and place my traps again. Last wednesday the dps on the adds was too low. All ranged dps, and melee that can avoid aggro, should do dps on the adds, the two chain jumpers are excused.
For the second try we used Sharpfang in the mobs, I fired some frost traps and multi-shots. It was a messy attempt, but a kill. Now let's look at the table for Damage Done for the fight, especially at the last column: Active Time. I have no idea how the combat log and WorldofLogs handles the chain activity. But if you are dps, and you activity Time is below 90%, there is room for improvement. I'll leave it up to everyone to analyze their own dps and how to improve Activity Time.
Next Omnotron (3 wipes). I will only repeat where you should look: Damage Done, Active Time.
Conclusion is simple for these two bosses where we all know all tactics: you need to stay alive to dps. First step in reaching that is to avoid damage, second step is help from a healer. Look at the Survivability overview (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s0zkt4i7kk64kal4/survivability/) for your own scores.
Next was Maloriak (1 wipe). Another 'control the adds' fight. We have the right tactics now (release the 3rd group of adds as close as possible to the green phase), and we have the right focus on killing the adds. Actually, I think our kill this week was much cleaner than last week. I think it was mainly because we had the same player kiting the adds (Treach), the same player interrupting and releasing adds (Vladic). Both did a good job, which made it a lot easier for healers and a bit easier for dps. For the third time being there as group, I think we did a good job.
Quote from: vladic;324920Chimerons first attempts went bad due to AOE healing being insufficient but with some organising of melee and casters with back up healing abilities we managed to pull through, however this still wasnt enough due to a DPS shortage that prevented us from getting him to Phase 2 (chase chase die die phase) before healers ran out of mana or the group became too damaged to survive the chasing.
Chimaeron is a different story (6 wipes, no kills). No adds, the gimmick is in the healing. The dps actually has an easy job most of the fight: dps, move to collapse point, dps, spread out, dps.
If you take a look at the Survivability overview, you can see that tanks often died first. Lack of healing? Probably. Since dpsing was rather easy, and I can blindly press my Cobra shot with the right timing, I had enough time to take a look at the raid frames to see what the health of all characters was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyone except the tank taking the double attack can be at 10k+1 hp when the robot is active. What I often saw (but not always), was that the raid was at half health. For me that would be about 60-70k, so 50k too much health. Normally I like being healed, but I think we got healed too much. And I think that might cause a problem in keeping the tanks up. I'll leave it to the healers to determine if I made a point, but let us know if I'm completely wrong. The more we know the fight, the better we can control it.
As to the AoE (lack of) healing, after the fights, I realized that that is a perfect moment to use some cooldowns as dps to prevent taking damage. I'll will have to look in the possibility of using Deterrence. The bit of dps I miss at that point should not be an issue. Helping the healers is at that moment way more important.
We made it to phase 2 once if I recall correctly. For some that was the first time, so the 'run and try to kite him or drops your threat' was not an automatic reaction. For me as hunter, pressing Feign Death, is something I'm used too. The big difference at this point was Hubbah. Last week he was in the raid, doing top dps, knowing the fights and giving us the slack we needed to get the kill (in my opinion). Having two dps die early in the fight might also be a reason. Did I say that you need to be alive to dps? I did? Ok....
Quote from: vladic;324920After id say about 10 attempts on chimeron (may have been less) we decided to attempt Artramedes (who as many would say is easier considering the gongs interupting his raid wipers and all you gotta do is dodge stuff) however the two/three attempts we did make were (considering we 2 shotted him last time) pretty damn abismal :crying:
People were not dodging the sonic disks (the ones you must dodge) instead opting to run through them or to stand still and get off one more attack and get stuck in them till they had a high sound rating, dodging the disks is a prio, DPS isnt a prio in any of the raid fights (by DPS i mean nuking boss to hell) until the final % and when Drea says to nuke such as maloriak, they are about survival!!!
Also the gongs on Atramedes went to shot, either being used too early or with the gong activater not being close when they needed to be activated, i understand that people who wernt with us last time were there however watching the youtube videos and reading the tactics (id recommend the yogspot videos as they are better then tank spots) should give you a fair if not immediate grasp to the fight mechanics... they arnt as complicated as you think.
Atramedes with gong duty for me. Yes, I watched videos, read the tactics, and was there last week. The gong is the gimmick of the fight, and if you do not handle them correctly, the raid is screwed. And yes, I had no idea when to use them. So I used them too late, or too early. For me, experiencing the fight is way more valuable than seeing it. Somehow the videos are never made by people with special duties (like the gong) or from melee point of view (who likes to constantly see the butt of a boss anyway in a video).
So learning when to use the gong, taking into account that some players can outrun the fire beam, while others do not, spreading out the 10 gongs over the fight, looking at the patches on the ground, avoiding them while staying close to a gong, stay within reach of healer, knowing the timing of the spells, it will take some time. Did I mention you also have to stay alive to dps? Or do your duty. I did already? Ok....
So, Hubbah (who handled the gong with confidence and experience last week), or the one on duty for RGT, any tips and tricks?
Quote from: vladic;324920Short summary of what needs doing - DPS needs increasing (not everyone, however if you have recount you should know who you are and if you did good or bad, so get farming gear etc), gong activer (s) needs to know what to do without being told, and anyone who isnt clear 100% on there job or what to dodge needs to get on youtube and watch the yogspot or tankspot w/e video you prefer to learn there task and his abilties (expecting us to explain tacts shouldnt even cross your mind, im sure Drea doesnt mine refreshing memories on an abilitie or 2 but he shouldnt be explaining entire fights... do your homework!!!!
Vladic the Fruitcake
We often agree, but at some points I disagree here. For me, and I know at least 1 other raid member who agrees, experience is essential. I need to get comfortable with what I have to do and what happens to do it perfectly. Currently the Atramedes fight with gong duty is an information overload for me, and I will need to learn to filter out the important information. That will take a few more attempts. Knowing in theory that when a boss cast spell X, you have to do action Y, is not enough for me. I'm not in my early 20s anymore, and learning new things takes a bit longer. Analyzing things is getting better with the years, though.
I watched fights from multiple sources, and to be honest from a video built up like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Er473sRbRc) one, I learn the most from (it shows a raid from beta, going blindly into a Conclave fight, on the fly explaining what they learned and telling why they changed tactics).
Further it is not DPS that needs to increase, it's damage done. A subtle difference, but an important one. Did I mention.... I already...? Ok.....
The above might sound a bit harsh, my apologies if I offended anyone. There is a Dutch saying that applies to situations like these: "Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden".
I'm confident that if we, as dps, focus on being able to dps, starting with avoiding damage, we will have the bosses on (semi) farm within 2 or 3 weeks.
:withstupid: Legolei
I don't disagree with anything but for me a couple of new bosses down and back to dps I had a good time and felt progress was still made
Ice hawk the reports basicly pretain to the group that was there i point out the rough facts and as u see people go into specifics or rebuff my findings
and that sounded rather snippy i do apologise, the reports i publish dont generally retain to the entire raid group (active and reserve members of the time) they pretain only to those who participated that evening highting flaws within that group layout and individual members, if you were in the group (if ure an alt i didnt know) then any errors u made wud also be highlighted in a round about way (not my job to point fingers just raise awareness)
as to my last paragraph some members were either lax on the DPS for chimeron (we only had 2 bot downtimes the first time we got him dead due to fast DPS and this time we had 3 making it difficult for people with CD etc) and also drea had to tell some people entire tacts to people (hence video suggestion) when at best he should only be refreshing on the odd phase or so, as we shud all do soem form of homework (video reading etc) to help and get going faster.
As to atramedes i think it was expected that lego wud know what to do due to being present the first time (i personally thought he did half the gongs i was wrong evidently) hence why dreaman probably skipped explaining it again he did however explain the dodging of sonic discs etc which still didnt help, as to if people listen to TS it seems to be hit and miss, they listen in tactics and planning but if someone shouts "**** move out of the discs" then they seem to 50% time ignore and get a last attack off and get hit instead.
To Jewlez i know i mean we shuda reached Phase 2 before 3 robot shut downs as its before a shut down that we are viable to do it before a massacre/shut down and DPS lackage prevented us from getting the timing just right.
To lego, wasnt uni work was the work that gives me £££ for booze and chicken (i live on chicken om nom), ill agree with your assessment for Magmaw (that second tact by sharpfang ill be honest i dont like so i gna suggest we use normal next time as its also damn sight faster) and again for omnotron, its a survival game not a DPS race (same with atramedies) and as to your DPS comments ill agree as well.
Vladic The Inquistion
Your comments do help, and i for 1 dont take constructive criticism badly, i consider it a gift.
I think we had 2 new players with the sonic discs, (i was 1) and if i recall both people advised video was watched, Drea kindly and imo correctly gave a brief overview. We had the last25 mins there and got exp of it if nothing else.
Quote from: Legolei;324938Why waste time on work? :narnar:
Chimaeron is a different story (6 wipes, no kills). No adds, the gimmick is in the healing. The dps actually has an easy job most of the fight: dps, move to collapse point, dps, spread out, dps.
If you take a look at the Survivability overview, you can see that tanks often died first. Lack of healing? Probably. Since dpsing was rather easy, and I can blindly press my Cobra shot with the right timing, I had enough time to take a look at the raid frames to see what the health of all characters was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyone except the tank taking the double attack can be at 10k+1 hp when the robot is active. What I often saw (but not always), was that the raid was at half health. For me that would be about 60-70k, so 50k too much health. Normally I like being healed, but I think we got healed too much. And I think that might cause a problem in keeping the tanks up. I'll leave it to the healers to determine if I made a point, but let us know if I'm completely wrong. The more we know the fight, the better we can control it.
As to the AoE (lack of) healing, after the fights, I realized that that is a perfect moment to use some cooldowns as dps to prevent taking damage. I'll will have to look in the possibility of using Deterrence. The bit of dps I miss at that point should not be an issue. Helping the healers is at that moment way more important.
:withstupid: Legolei
I wouldnt say it was a lack of healing, it was the same healers that two shot him last monday. i'd say more of a lack of positioning (From my POV anyway)
The way a priests prayer of healing works is that it heals either all 5 members of RG1 OR all 5 memebers of RG2, this in theory means that i can heal half the raid for around 7-8k ea per heal. Wrong. This, like everything has a radius, so if half of RG2 is on the right and the other half is on the right, its only going to heal 2 maybe 3 people. On the monday we 2 shot the groups were organsised and i could heal 5 people per heal, this gave me maximum heals. On Wednesday where did didnt kill him i was healing one person at times. This is either down to poor positioning, or poor organisation. Not, lack of healing.
Thanks, Jewelz/Lynx
I also apologise if this sounds angry - i am not angry just stating a point that i noticed :)
My thoughts on improvement from Wednesdays raid.
1) Magmaw was wonderful with the 2 tank tac. Keep it.
2) Omnitron. Each boss has an evil raid affect. it's all about leraning the tacs for each 4. Simple rule of thumb on this guy: If you get a marker on you, stop what you're doing, move and look around. Remeber raids are about survival 1st pewpew 2nd.
3) Mal. Pretty clean but I noticed 1-2 people not grouping for the flames. The more people get hit the less damage everyone takes.
4) Chrommy. This really is the healer mana fight. The trick to to keep the tank up and everyone else above 10k health (aim for 15k) This part you want to try and save your mana as much as possible. Fued: Go mad.
5) Atra. Alot of group moving problems here. I've used a different tactic where everyone spreads out and deals with their own personal world. It means less moving for the raid as a whole. Also it does give other people a little more time to avoid fire. The gongs need more work. Maybe dedicating 2-3 people to call on them to give us a better chance of catching them. Report number of gongs on each side on each phase switch so they can keep track better.
I know we can do better. Monday I expect us to clear all we've farmed and get our teeth stuck into the council.
Quote from: Legolei;324938Why waste time on work? :narnar:
I'll try to give my view on these attemps, mainly focussed on the dps. Facts from here (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s0zkt4i7kk64kal4/), many thanks to the uploader. Let me start by saying that I do not want to point fingers, so I will only name myself when it comes to errors.
Let's start with Magmaw. Unfortunately the wipe is not on in the uploaded log, but what I could see in my quick recount check, we lost control of the adds. For my part, I know I had multiple times not enough time between the adds to place traps in time. In previous week, Nims did his fan of knives, using tricks of the trade to not get aggro. Combined with ranged dps, that was enough to let me finish off all adds and place my traps again. Last wednesday the dps on the adds was too low. All ranged dps, and melee that can avoid aggro, should do dps on the adds, the two chain jumpers are excused.
For the second try we used Sharpfang in the mobs, I fired some frost traps and multi-shots. It was a messy attempt, but a kill. Now let's look at the table for Damage Done for the fight, especially at the last column: Active Time. I have no idea how the combat log and WorldofLogs handles the chain activity. But if you are dps, and you activity Time is below 90%, there is room for improvement. I'll leave it up to everyone to analyze their own dps and how to improve Activity Time.
Next Omnotron (3 wipes). I will only repeat where you should look: Damage Done, Active Time.
Conclusion is simple for these two bosses where we all know all tactics: you need to stay alive to dps. First step in reaching that is to avoid damage, second step is help from a healer. Look at the Survivability overview (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s0zkt4i7kk64kal4/survivability/) for your own scores.
Next was Maloriak (1 wipe). Another 'control the adds' fight. We have the right tactics now (release the 3rd group of adds as close as possible to the green phase), and we have the right focus on killing the adds. Actually, I think our kill this week was much cleaner than last week. I think it was mainly because we had the same player kiting the adds (Treach), the same player interrupting and releasing adds (Vladic). Both did a good job, which made it a lot easier for healers and a bit easier for dps. For the third time being there as group, I think we did a good job.
Chimaeron is a different story (6 wipes, no kills). No adds, the gimmick is in the healing. The dps actually has an easy job most of the fight: dps, move to collapse point, dps, spread out, dps.
If you take a look at the Survivability overview, you can see that tanks often died first. Lack of healing? Probably. Since dpsing was rather easy, and I can blindly press my Cobra shot with the right timing, I had enough time to take a look at the raid frames to see what the health of all characters was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyone except the tank taking the double attack can be at 10k+1 hp when the robot is active. What I often saw (but not always), was that the raid was at half health. For me that would be about 60-70k, so 50k too much health. Normally I like being healed, but I think we got healed too much. And I think that might cause a problem in keeping the tanks up. I'll leave it to the healers to determine if I made a point, but let us know if I'm completely wrong. The more we know the fight, the better we can control it.
As to the AoE (lack of) healing, after the fights, I realized that that is a perfect moment to use some cooldowns as dps to prevent taking damage. I'll will have to look in the possibility of using Deterrence. The bit of dps I miss at that point should not be an issue. Helping the healers is at that moment way more important.
We made it to phase 2 once if I recall correctly. For some that was the first time, so the 'run and try to kite him or drops your threat' was not an automatic reaction. For me as hunter, pressing Feign Death, is something I'm used too. The big difference at this point was Hubbah. Last week he was in the raid, doing top dps, knowing the fights and giving us the slack we needed to get the kill (in my opinion). Having two dps die early in the fight might also be a reason. Did I say that you need to be alive to dps? I did? Ok....
Atramedes with gong duty for me. Yes, I watched videos, read the tactics, and was there last week. The gong is the gimmick of the fight, and if you do not handle them correctly, the raid is screwed. And yes, I had no idea when to use them. So I used them too late, or too early. For me, experiencing the fight is way more valuable than seeing it. Somehow the videos are never made by people with special duties (like the gong) or from melee point of view (who likes to constantly see the butt of a boss anyway in a video).
So learning when to use the gong, taking into account that some players can outrun the fire beam, while others do not, spreading out the 10 gongs over the fight, looking at the patches on the ground, avoiding them while staying close to a gong, stay within reach of healer, knowing the timing of the spells, it will take some time. Did I mention you also have to stay alive to dps? Or do your duty. I did already? Ok....
So, Hubbah (who handled the gong with confidence and experience last week), or the one on duty for RGT, any tips and tricks?
We often agree, but at some points I disagree here. For me, and I know at least 1 other raid member who agrees, experience is essential. I need to get comfortable with what I have to do and what happens to do it perfectly. Currently the Atramedes fight with gong duty is an information overload for me, and I will need to learn to filter out the important information. That will take a few more attempts. Knowing in theory that when a boss cast spell X, you have to do action Y, is not enough for me. I'm not in my early 20s anymore, and learning new things takes a bit longer. Analyzing things is getting better with the years, though.
I watched fights from multiple sources, and to be honest from a video built up like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Er473sRbRc) one, I learn the most from (it shows a raid from beta, going blindly into a Conclave fight, on the fly explaining what they learned and telling why they changed tactics).
Further it is not DPS that needs to increase, it's damage done. A subtle difference, but an important one. Did I mention.... I already...? Ok.....
The above might sound a bit harsh, my apologies if I offended anyone. There is a Dutch saying that applies to situations like these: "Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden".
I'm confident that if we, as dps, focus on being able to dps, starting with avoiding damage, we will have the bosses on (semi) farm within 2 or 3 weeks.
:withstupid: Legolei
This is what i call a nice report ;) Thnx for that.
QuoteFor me, experiencing the fight is way more valuable than seeing it.
That is for everyone, that is the way we all learn the fights and adjust our ways untill it works.
A video only gives you the basics and some highlights for what to watch for.
About the gongs i can't help you out on that part as i think you do the gongs for ground phase.
For air phase it is easy, Stay near your gong walking in little circle's untill you need to use it.
You wait for it untill you know who has it and if he/she has an speed pot/ability or not.
If they do, you wait a few seconds before they call out or trust in yourself with a little counting and then activate it and you start running (not in the middle ofcourse) at the outside of the room.
I am having trobule with wolr dof logs, I'm trying to find the damage I avoided not the damage I took but can't.
You can make a thread called "RGW raid report megathread by Vlad Cake" and just shove it all in there mate :-)
Edit: Or put new posts in the Boss compendiums
Quote from: Treach;324981I am having trobule with wolr dof logs, I'm trying to find the damage I avoided not the damage I took but can't.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s0zkt4i7kk64kal4/details/0/
Bottom of that page is damage taken, righthand side is misses which is your avoidance. I'm assuming that's what you wanted?
we cud really do with a RGW sub page or something to put all these reports on lol or the members area gna be rammed with them lol
or how about not making them? :P, discussions about bosses should be done in the tactic thread of that said boss.
I like the work you put into it, and the result but I find it a bit spamming the WoW section, so my advice is make a thread where you keep posting a small post and keep the tactical discussions in the boss topics.
if done correctly, the way with having 1 tank taking all the adds are faster. The point being that all the dps can magmaw 95% of the time. For hunters with range issues, this means u will have to be on melee range WHEN the pillar of flame pops. between em u can stand wherever u want.
actually, a hunter can stand at minimum range, and it'll be fine. Done it myself