Let my start by saying that I'm grateful for the help we get from alts in the guild.
But let me make clear that I really think it is bullshit that we take an alt when we have enough dps from the group.
I don't like it and I don't want to play that way. We have a team and if enough team members of the right spec (tank, dps, healer) are available, no alt should come in. More melee dps than 'ideal': think out of the box and adjust.
And if two of those needed ranged dps are outplayed by an healer going to offspec....
On vacation, but you have my support.
I know many of the alts coming in is doing it to help out, but learning the encounter by doing it is important for self-esteem, further progress and raid group.
Saying; No, we cant have 3 melee dps isnt really true.
2 tanks, 3 ranged, 2 melee, 3 healers.
2 tanks, 2 ranged, 3 melee, 3 healers.
Most, if not all of the encounters on normal can be done with both of these combos.
I agree and disagree with the comments above. Keeping the group together is the prio benching a player is never easy all factors considered it was decided that we still need to learn this fight the help we get is exactly that. Any benched player will deffo be in the next raid. The compare with dps swapping from heals is valid please also consider interrupts knockback innerv8 battle res tranquilty 1 dps in a spec for cc. Some dps dropping by large amounts some increasing. I for 1 would be prepared to stay on cho gall well after the next patch if it means every member of rgw gets the kill. Last night was real progress 3% and ext for Wednesday, when we will probably need help again as a few have declined
Quote from: Slush;3274092 tanks, 3 ranged, 2 melee, 3 healers.
2 tanks, 2 ranged, 3 melee, 3 healers.
Most, if not all of the encounters on normal can be done with both of these combos.
You need to be careful here. I'm not sure what fight it was you were learning as I was not there last night, but there is a difference between 'can' and what you would 'want' to do. You could try most fights with no ranged dps at all, but would you want to? There are factors to be taken into consideration by raid leaders, not just "person A is an alt and therefore should sit this one out so that we can take person B who is a main". You take mains wherever possible, but it's not a simple decision, there are always multiple considerations, particularly when trying to learn a fight. If it was Chogall you were trying and you were struggling with small adds or P2/tentacles/corruption levels then melee is a big consideration as additional melee makes the fight considerably more difficult.
Quote from: Most fights are harder with more meleeHalfus is harder with more melee as it increases the splash damage taken, so healing is harder.
V&T is harder with more melee as it forces healers to be in the 'movement' ranged group.
Council is harder with more melee due to the AOE on the ranged target breaking dps cycles and causing more movement for the buff.
Chogall is harder with more melee as dps on the big add is lower (due to movement time), dps on little adds is worse, dps on tentacles is slower and corrupted blood higher due to spacing limitations.
Magmaw is ok with more melee now that dps levels are up, but only on Normal, it's a problem in Heroic.
Omnitron is slightly harder with more melee but not significantly so.
Chimearon is harder as healer set up sometimes dictates passive healing range and some classes only do good dps from behind boss, which might not be possible in a melee heavy set up. In heroic, you are running out of room as it is a 3 tank fight to start with.
Atramedes is fine with more melee, but you are limiting your dps done in the air phase which makes the fight harder than it might otherwise be.
Maloriak is harder due to blue phase and p2 spacing for AOE damage avoidance.
Nefarian is ok with more melee but it makes pushing a 2nd crackle before the end of P2 much harder as you have limited your ranged dps potential.
Conclave is harder with more melee, more AOE damage from adds, trickier damage on the ranged target having to be done from melee whilst avoiding winds.
Al'ikir is harder with more melee due to increased chain lightning particularly in P2 and P3 spacing.
I'm not commenting on last night as I do not know what went on, but I am saying that it is not as simple as saying 'take a main instead of an alt' as the above examples hopefully illustrate. There's a balance to be struck for the raid group which will depend on the make up of the rest of the raid and the fights you are aiming to accomplish.
If such restrictions were applied last week then the RGW raid would have been cancelled as you would not have had the required 3rd healer and I would have spent the night with my wife as originally planned instead of being called in to help RGW which irritated her and meant our original plans were cancelled. In short, there are other considerations and it is not simple.
It also helps not to raise the language used to unnecessary levels. If someone has a point to make then make it politely and logically, we do not need to resort to cussing to make the point, it just raises tempers.
I just feel I don´t belong to a raid group and my self-esteem is about zero. I heard every excuse in the book why I cant join for some runs now and then.
some adds up some don´t... I sit and listen most of the time when RGW "wipe and learn"...
I been spending up too 6-7h a week, week after week for months now just doing that. add up all the time I been sitting on the bench and ya see.. its a lot.
rotation of melee´s as it said from start is not working. I´m already falling behind in tacts and experience so I´m hardly to any use now. except for my "catbuff" .. for pink paw and BR the group still have 3 druids so ;)
its not a "threat" from myside, just a fact how it is for me... and I feel like some in this thread is about me.
Yeah! ofc I do misstakes and my DPS is been crap on and off, but Im not the only one. but the diffr is.. they still in and can learn from misstakes. Im not :(
so for that reason I guess Im out of raiding now there are melee that are better then me and some ppl in the group do feel bad for me that I cant join and that´s not gonna make RGW move forward.
For as I see it, raiding is teamwork in the end :)
to learn what others can do and work out how to do it together. that what is making it worth all the time ya put down..
So Good Luck now RGW and show RGT ya can do it too :D
/miau from Pälsboll the "cata left over"
If you think I enjoy benching people then you are wrong. CHo'gall is just a very melee unfriendly fight atleast for our RG.
We didnt get the adds down quick enough with 2 melee, hence why I swapped to 1 melee. The reason I am currently picking Nims over Vladic and Pals on Cho'gall is his great DPS(check the logs hes above everyone) + his vocal communcation(which is less then Vladic(+his absence) and more then Pals) and FoK and ToT. If I actually had the oppertunity I would love to try it without any melee.
Now the extra ranged I asked to join has been, in both times, an alt. TL and Sheepy joined in as healer but mainly as DPS, and to me it seemed it worked, there experience but also ranged DPS(for the small adds) got us over a dead point and into P2.
We made some more adjustments and we got to 3-5%.
Lets not forget that when we kill him we will be able to "carry" an extra melee due to our own experience and better gear.
So the reasons I bench mains to get in alts are:
To get in experience(all previous bosses have been killed by myself before RGW), which seemed to make the difference.
Because we need the class
Because people arent doing what is needed.
Now this is for everyone:
Another reason to bench people is the lack/none vocal communication, this is mainly Hermi and Pals. You dont need to be talking 24/7 like Vladic but it is really important that you are able to shout out when needed instead of type out.
note: this will not be done if it means getting an alt in but if there is a main that does talk he gets prio.
Now about Pals, again, I told her that she would be in the entire wednesday, I will not be there so I told Switch and Sithy to make sure shes in.
I also told her the reasons I picked Nims and she seemed to be fine with it.
These are things you would have known if you actually talked to me before posting, that counts for pals aswell.
I personally think going to the forums is the last thing you should do.
Quote from: Arcticfire;327418These are things you would have known if you actually talked to me before posting, that counts for pals aswell.
I personally think going to the forums is the last thing you should do.
nothing about that ya done anything wrong Drea I wrote how I see my role in Cata so far.. and when I read the list over bosses TL posted its clear that i have no spot now in raids. the rouge we have is great, let him be main melee in RGW and or if Vlad joins ya have a high DPS in him... :)
and not sure if I did my point clear over this time i been waiting.. the fact is I been waiting outside a lot.. and i dont blame anyone for that..
and had my mic setup yesterday. no point to even say that since i was out :)
not complaining at the raidleading or help from alts its more the cata curse of being melee and that for me is a lot of time just sit there. and I cant keep on doing that.
sorry if ya Drea thought it was about ya for its not
This is the problem with cata....in the long run of things its not too melee friendly,as Tl has commented about the fights in the above post.
So melee does have to be rotated and sometimes we take two for some fights,yet Choggy is really 1 melee do to dps issues on the big add then nuking the little adds we need AoE and slows. Atm in RGW Nims can supply that by FoKing acouple of times then running back to Choggy. So this leaves us needing an extra ranged,being it main or an alt.
I know it sucks to be on the bench and feel for you kitty....When RGT started raiding i already had many epics through serious grinding etc but i was benched as im not a raid leader and we needed Tl to do that and im glad I was benched! I got to do every fight with the priest eventually,yet as i was "new" to the encounters my dps was slack even though i had the best gear in the grp. I was given some suggestions and help with addons and my dps greatly imrpoved. Then due due RL issues my attendance when to pot and i was raiding with the dr00d also,so it was decided i step down from RGT to concentrate on RGW.
Alot of people have been benched in RGT and RGW,its what happens im afraid.Trouble is this week as we focus on choggy u had to sit.Again. It something we will try and improve on in the future that i can promise. You make a comment that some are better than u,not true....theres 1 which is just more suited to that fight than you,so we need to take him atm to get this kill! Its nothing personal i swear!
@ Lego...can understand how you feel but as acrtic says talk to us before going to the forum...im not an official RGW leader but i am helping out as i know the tactics as been to all the fights and have the versatility of being dps or heals and geared for both....As you state a healer in offspec “beat†two of the range needed....My dr00d was originally b00m so i have nearly full epic set so that helps me with my dps lvls and i was on choggy the whole time so i didn’t have to run after the big add or turn and wait for the little adds. As Tl states please don’t use language like that as it does anger people and then we get other issues. You have made comments like that over TS also and again it doesn’t solve anything it just annoys others,which then could lead to people being annoyed with each other etc. That isn’t something we want in guild or raid grps.......I can hold my hand up and say i have done the same i bitched using bad language etc...all it managed to do was anger the officers and i then ate humble pie and said sorry as i was in the wrong.
Yes you do suffer from the cata curse kitty and it sucks :( but hopefully we will be able to get you into more raids in the future...hopefully firelands will be abit more kinder to melee but i haven’t read anything about it yet lol....I know u love ur kitty and we do! But roll a lock!
:P
Thx for clearing that up Pals.
I highly disagree with you on not having a spot in raids, I am quite sure you killed every boss that I killed and CHo'galls head will be on that list for both of us aswell.
The fact that you have been on the bench the last while is mainly due to CHo'gall being a b*tch and your lag, you had the chance to raid 1 full day since we have been on Cho'gall but you asked to be swapped due to lag or you were gone when I looked for you(Think you had a DC then, but you joined us whe you got back.)
Dont forget that the most bosses have a 2 melee setup and we have 3 melee, the fact that Nims has been in yesterday can mean he will be out tomorrow, depending on Vladic.
So saying there is no spot for you makes me sad :(
my view on this is- cata sucks for melee dps
it`s been proven time after time that a high(3+) melee dps is bad for raids- so the RL`s are forced to make the tough call or-"limit" spaces for melee.
Rotation is a hard thing to do, as the raid may need a specific class for a fight, and if your not that class- well it kinda sucks to be you :/
I know its hard looking in from the outside- i got benched for several weeks- because of the web fallover(rollback)
Fact is- raid spots are very tight for melee- and RL have a tough call to make- if u get sat out, its, well as simple as that- asking for more info why will give a clearer picture
failing that- i think the guild needs a few other classes- reroll- not ideal, honestly, but it may solve the slack time :/
if your dedicated to your kitty- GREAT you stick with it. although raid spots will be tight- as above
hope firelands are better for melee
Amber - healing your woes as usual
Great post amber short sweet and too the point,hope u recover soon mate :)
ok ok I'll try to talk a little bit .... but only in cases of emergency .. lol :)