I dreamt of being an architect. Don't ask. I achieved someone elses dream and became an IT Director at a successful firm instead.
So why is it that I spend my evenings doing other peoples jobs because they don't do what I expect them to. I worked my tight little ass off to get to where I am, and never passed up an opportunity to be better at what I was doing. Has the axis of evil released a chemical weapon driving apathy and lack of common sense in everyone under 30*? (
Kids (<30) of today...I hope they get Darwin'd real soon. :angry:
*Sweeping statement, may not contain any facts
I'm under 30 but I have common sense. However I know exactly what you mean, I've already developed a long list of people and services that are incompetent. As a physicist you'd imagine I'd spend time doing physics, but no I'm a graphical designed, mechanical engineer, computer programmer, electronics engineer and teacher all rolled into one.
Designing posters for conferences, designing and building equipment for the lab, writing full analysis programs, fixing power supplies and building fairly simple circuits, showing kids how cool degree level physics really is on UCAS open days.
When you're a jack of all trades the expectation is you won't be that great at any, but the sad thing is with the half arsed job many people do it's not hard to beat them at their own game...and I'm a lazy bugger. I shudder to think what a well motivated person could do...
Dishwashers, why can't people load them? If you put a bowl on the top shelf, the 'wrong' way, it will fill with dirty water and when you pull the shelf out it will cover all the clean dishes with filthy water. It's not hard.
Why is it hard to hang up a wet towel? Not hang up on top of another wet towel, one towel, one radiator, bins, don't stack them until overflowing, empty the flipping things. Tie handles and empty. I've had enough, I'm going to change the world one step at a time. If you're not a doctor/nurse/architect/fireman/policeman/binman then meet me at Beachy Head, we'll play frisbee and the world will feel better.
Three recruitments I've supervised in the last six years. Interviewing is like a day at the zoo, complete with poo-flinging monkeys!
For the last two positions we've had to recruit the over 40's as the under 30's seem to have come out of education with a master's degree in apathy and GCSE's in unrealistic expectation and bad manners.
We had one graduate, straight out of university, who told us (with a straight face) he expected a salary of at least £50K and wanted to know what company car options we offered. (We're a small company based in Maidstone in Kent) Needless to say we LOL'd him to the door. :roflmao:
What I found shocking was the general reaction to simple programming tests, not just the inability to comprehend a Visual Basic loop, but the incredulity and horror displayed at the prospect of there BEING a test at all! :blink:
"What!, you want to test me? You should just take my word I'm god's gift to programming!"
I think the dumbing down of education and the cult of celebrity is to blame. Children are being given unrealistic assesments of their abilities, which is unfair to them, because when they reach the workplace they find they are not as good as the school examiners told them. Also, they aspire to being rich and famous, but not skilled or hardworking.
Benny, it's not just you. We have an ex-collegue who is now contracting in an IT department in a London Borough and said much the same as you. All his under 30 employees need hand holding and often have to do the job again because they always do things the easiest way, rather than thinking it through and doing it properly.
We're reaping the fallout of two decades of "league table" driven education.
No offence guys but this is easy..
Are you confident that you set your expectations clearly and correctly? Have you built in a culture of challenge and openess so your staff are confident enough to walk in your office and clarify things?
Have you considered setting progress meetings or review dates prior to deadlines? Do you have recurring 1to1 meetings with your key staff to ensure that they are all swimming in the right direction? Do you key staff do the same?
Remember, you get what you measure / monitor. If you don't do either you get what you get and as a manager / director that's your fault.
NF
I am glad you have noticed this! I am a grumpy old man at heart (as all of you may have noticed by now).
I have to say you are right.
My generation are pretty bad, the generation below me are going to be awful.
Having been in a IT job for the last 3 years after UNI, I have to somewhat defend my fellow graduates in their expectation of a good salary and perks. If you are from a top UNI then they do somewhat brainwash info like: "When you have graduated you are easily worth half a million if you go to a bank and ask for a loan for your own business". That really was said in one of our professional practice and project lectures!
I spent a lot of my time in the Summer and during Uni starting up my own business with a couple of other students making software for large companies such as a now bust "Metronet" (they used to repair parts of a London Underground) and selling them the software at drastically reduced rates compared to other companies. I think we quoted 12k (beer money for the three of us working on it as a Summer project and to cover transport costs to London and back) for the software and other software houses quoted well over 100k.
I appreciate my Boss taking a punt on a snotty nosed kid right out of Uni, but I didn't ask for 50k right out of the blocks! Thats absurd as you need to prove your worth to the company over a period of years.
All of society is going down the pan, particularly in this country. Every Services/Utility company seems to be incompetent. Everything that can go wrong does, no one has pride in offering a good service anymore as everything goes into sales and once they have caught you in the Net you get no service. I know over 40's that are the same way TBH, they may have had the upbringing but by osmosis slowly their membrane has become more permeable to taking the "easy" way out.
As for graduates out of Uni, you cannot expect them to just "Get on with it" and do the job without some degree of hand holding. Uni doesn't prepare you for what it is like in the workplace and even though I had experience with dealing with customers, being sat in a board room for a multi-million pound contract with CEO's and a legal team sitting opposite you as the resident "Techie" is rather daunting in your first month in the job!
To anyone employing my generation, we are not all bad. Crack the whip a little and normally you get a good reaction, if you don't then let them go as they will probably never amount to anything.
I am really worried about this countries future as its is only getting worse!
DZ.
Ninj, you know I'm normally a happy go lucky chirpy fella! :)
I blame the French.
Gizza job?
Serious BFC? What do you do nowadays?
I've come to a conscious decide to employ only MILF's. Flippancy aside and taking out the 'ILF' part in MILF, I think mums at the school gates are one of the greatest untapped potential out there.
I'm on the cusp of setting up another business and as I was explaining to my new business partner, they're perfect for our needs. so long as we recognise the out-of-action before 9.30am and after 2.30pm thing and can cover the unexpected marble-up-the-nose threrefore need time off to go to casualty scenarios then we have a good 5 hours where they can be utilised. Good for them and good for us.
Lots of bright, erudite, intelligent and keen people who would love to do a few hours' work.
(Also, If they already have their complement of kids then I'm not going to have to pay maternity for more..... yay).
Quote from: Penfold;328890mums at the school gates are one of the greatest untapped potential out there.
Can't disagree with that:norty:
Quote from: Benny;328772Dishwashers, why can't people load them? If you put a bowl on the top shelf, the 'wrong' way, it will fill with dirty water and when you pull the shelf out it will cover all the clean dishes with filthy water. It's not hard.
Why is it hard to hang up a wet towel? Not hang up on top of another wet towel, one towel, one radiator, bins, don't stack them until overflowing, empty the flipping things. Tie handles and empty. I've had enough, I'm going to change the world one step at a time. If you're not a doctor/nurse/architect/fireman/policeman/binman then meet me at Beachy Head, we'll play frisbee and the world will feel better.
Are you reading this Tox?
MILFS? Another new seam of labour for the merciless entrepreneur to tap into, although I think the non sexual innuendo term for them is Soccer Mom's..... Just checked and there's a porn category for that too :blink:
On a serious note you make a fair point, the mum's back to work that I know are generally a more sensible bunch than other err younger demographics
got to agree with pen i would *do/hire milfs any day of the week...
* delete as applicable
Work moving the role to Denver, commuting becomes slightly better than present. Last day August 31st. Feel free to request a CV. All sorts of stuff. Support, testing, graphics, video, broadcasting. I'm like Daddy Pig, a bit of an expert.
PM sent
Ohh good luck BFG. I know the pain of redundancy.... twice.
I don't do network, IT, nerdy stuff beyond keen amateur status but if anyone ever need a photograph of a bit of Cat-5 or their favourite server rack then I'm your man. :)
QuoteWhen you're a jack of all trades the expectation is you won't be that great at any, but the sad thing is with the half arsed job many people do it's not hard to beat them at their own game...and I'm a lazy bugger. I shudder to think what a well motivated person could do...
As I've chosen to become a more physical working/operating/thinking bachelor instead of a theoretical one. I sort of have to be a jack of all trades.
Sure there are others around me that know things better or have better sense of the theory behind it. But the hard part is to convert that into a proper testing machine instead a wall of text. (In theory almost anything can be done).
I've noticed though, since I like to do anything myself, even if its not directly my task (I'd like to know more around it), to create that Fingerspitzengefühl or get a better understanding of it, that people start to see it as my job to do it. And i'm not just talking about sub 30s, but all ages.
Furthermore the new students (just 1-3 years younger then me [yes i was a young one]), really do demand a starting salary they deem fit and in my opinion are way less flexible them me (for example, I don't and didn't mind getting fresh pots of coffee during project meetings with other company's, or help out moving office furniture or fill excellsheets unrelated to my (internship) project or make a fuss when they request me to work weird hours, but they do anything they can to deflect such requests).
As for the demand of salary, I also think the problem started at school. There they kept saying, a new bachelor chemical engineer can easilly make 30-40k euro a year and companies will line up ... bla bla company car ... blabla exciting projects ... etc.
So even though I found that unrealistic (I googled the real salaries of the jobs and found that 25-35k euro is more realistic). But i was a bit disappointed when I started at 20k, no car, 6 month contract, not so interesting work etc. I did however take the job because of the potential it had. And I did everything I could to make them realize I can do better and they should invest in me. Which payed off. (Not directly due to crisis they laid me off like all other youngsters, but after 3 months and 22 months they tried to rehire me. The first one I deflected, but the 2nd time I didn't). Back at the company last December I retook a better position, got 10k per year more, now have a 12 month contract going after 2 smaller contracts, and am now closer to my goal and
by "simply" doing more then just told (and with the luck of a new positions being created) in September I'm pretty much at the job I was going for all along (which is the job the students pretty much demand straight away, while not wanting to put in extra efforts, and maybe even slack off (extending lunch breaks and so) with the salary I'm making [1 even wants more o.O]).
From my POV, I have similar feelings.
At my current place of work, being successful means you just get more work dumped on you to take up the slack from the other incompetents. To get the job in the first place I taught myself all the skills I needed in approximately a week and a half. I had a two day handover from the old outgoing person, and was left to get on with it. None of the job has any real relation to my actual degree (electronics and communications engineering). However, a can-do attitude and willingness to bang in the hours during my first few months meant there was no drop in service levels.
Having worked here about a year, I have delivered cross departmental flagship projects that were continually being fobbed off, simply by getting on with it, rather than spending 8 hours a day in hand wringing meetings. My reward? I have to re-apply for my job and accept a pay cut.
So I am currently back out in the job market, I know what salary I need to cover my mortgage, food and bills, that's all I want. It's pretty low expectations after my 5 years at Uni doing an MEng. I am applying for jobs that often I am well over the basic requirements for, yet nobody is prepared to take a punt on a recent graduate. In the current climate everyone wants people who have "ben there and done it" but to only pay them peanuts. To help things along, the MOD just laid off 800 Electronic Engineers.
I have sent off in excess of 100 applications and begging letters to just about everyone going within a 60 mile radius. I have 2 interviews to show for it, both of which are only fraction better paid than I would get as a graduate manager at McDonalds.
Not all "young people" are incompetent, a lot of us are being tarred unfairly. In my current place of work, as a rule of thumb, incompetency is actually higher the older the staff are, and the longer they have been here. None of them can be fired due to frankly ridiculous "protected employment" HR schemes and policies, they just get shuffled sideways or re-located to new departments on the same wage, but with less responsibility.
If companies were run more efficiently, and people who couldn't do the job were able to be got rid off more easily, the workplace would be a lot healthier, as a culture of incompetency and mediocrity would not be allowed to thrive.
/rant off
So whaddya do Twig?
Thats harsh Twig, hope you find anything decent soon.
Yeah, I know what you mean about being lied to as an undergraduate. I was told Physics is a subject where people will pay loads and hire anyone. To an extent it's true...if you do teaching (or maybe banking), but those are both a huge waste of a 4 year masters degree. I went to a careers fair and all the companies who were willing to employ physicists seemed to want to make you become an engineer first by making you sit through another masters degree in engineering first (paid, but not especially well), might as well have just done engineering...
So now I'm doing a PhD and expect employment prospects to be even lower at the end. I'm still a physicist, but by the end of it I'll be over qualified for many jobs and not qualified enough for others.
I completely agree with the statement that incompetent people have too much job security. It makes businesses completely uncompetitive and stops others even getting on the ladder. As for asking for too much money for a job, I've got no problem with that, if you don't ask you don't get. If they get the job they've sold themselves better than you have and that's something everyone can stand to improve on. Learn from it and try harder next interview.
Quote from: Benny;329180So whaddya do Twig?
By qualification I'm an Electronics and Communications Engineer. Major areas I studied are:
o Digital Networks and Protocols
o Satellite, terrestrial and mobile communication systems
o Optical devices and communications systems
o Space-born/Terrestrial remote sensing and satellite navigation systems
o Operating Systems and Structured Programming
o Computational Intelligence
o Programming in JAVA and C
o Digital Systems Design
o Electronic Devices and Circuits
o Principles of Radio and Optical Transmission
o Optical Devices and Communications Systems
o Electronic Control System Design
My Final Project was a dual band secure software based radio link for UAVs.
I currently however am working as a Web Services Co-ordinator, doing a bit of database, programming, IT support, web development, mobile application development and maintaining AV systems. Pretty much anything else remotely technical that goes on also gets thrown at me, as I am in a department of one, and come under the "leadership" of the Director of Marketing and Communications.
So the only actual bit of my degree that I've used is a bit of programming in JAVA, and my ability to write good technical reports. I taught myself enough PHP and mySQL to do the database stuff needed for an online seat planner project, brushed up on my web skills that I taught myself about 10 years ago. Along the way I have also picked up enough Photoshop and Illustrator skills to do the majority of web design work required.
Basically, I'll do pretty much anything, and as soon as I find I don't know something, I make sure I do know it by the next time. :)
Wow, anyone got a lid I can put back on this can of worms? People should be clear on a few things though, degree's are a proof of ability, not a level of experience. It shows a capacity to learn, not much more. I have a degree in engineering and use none of it. My original complaint and what triggered this thread was the apathy with which most people approach issues. There is a benign acceptance that things break and are broken, nobody cares or has any urgency around the fix, it's all about money.
I cut my teeth in supporting financial exchange houses, when it went wrong, you knew about it. Nowadays it's just another business, no accountability, no responsibility.
For those of you looking for jobs, by advice, which I'm sure you don't need is to tailor your CV, you can never be over qualified if you dress the CV correctly.